Tools mentioned in this episode:
ewg.org/skindeep EWG empowers people to live healthier lives in a healthier environment. With breakthrough research and education, driving consumer choice and civic action
BioSil An advanced collagen generator. Clinically proven collagen generating supplement promotes healthier hair, skin and nails.
Oceans Alive is the ultimate superfood. A premium blend of two specially cultivated, hand-selected marine phytoplankton strains.
UNIKEY The best nutritional supplements for weight loss, detox, cleansing and anti-aging
Econugenics Pectasol-C The most advanced and effective Modified Citrus Pectin (MCP) supplement available.
- Grab our FREE Practitioner Tool Kit to get a list and review of all the platforms Kendra and Christine use personally in their businesses to save time, money and generate consistent income.
Christine: Hello and welcome to this episode of the 360 HealthBiz Podcast here with the beautiful Kendra Perry,
Christine: Who is going to blow your minds today, and myself, Christine Hansen. So we're super excited to be here with you today for this episode. But before we dive in, we have a little request that would make us so happy and that would feature you on our show. And that is if you hope over to iTunes right now and you leave us a five star review, we would be super, super, super grateful, and we would actually also read it on the podcast with your names. So have your little claim to fame, your couple of seconds of fame on our show, and that would be absolutely amazing, and we would know on the right track.
Christine: So press pause and head over to iTunes right now. And as always, don't forget that Kendra and I will have an amazing Freebie for you on our website the 360healthbizpodcast.com where you have a huge box where it says that you can get a free tool kit, which is absolutely essential for anyone who's either starting out with a health coaching business, considering starting a coaching business, or someone who's in the middle of having a health coaching business, or someone who has been doing it for ages and still wants to see if there are some little nuggets that were just missed. And so we, we share all the tools that we're using and that has made our lives so much easier.
Kendra: Yeah. And I actually just beefed it up too. I threw in, an example of a really good client contract and a really good example of a claim intake form. So I just juiced it up a little bit.
Christine: Amazing. But if you have it already, don't worry, you can just sign up again and you will get sent the link straight away.
Christine: Perfect. Alright, so we're going to dive straight into our content today. So we don't have a guest, but it's our, both of us today. And we're going to do continuous education episode, and we're going to talk about detox today. And personally it's been something that I had on the radar for a long time, but I never really saw the issue with, issues with it until I dove deeper and actually realized how inconsiderate a lot of programs and unfortunately even schools are with detoxing, right? So we consider it something super easy, something that you can do whenever, but actually it's something pretty serious that you're doing to your body. So Kendra is an absolute wizard with these topics. I'm going to let her take the lead, take notes people, because this is going to make your practice so much more efficient. You will be ahead of the curve because you will know things that your clients never heard before and nobody else has told them that it's going to make you a much better practitioner. So Kendra, take it away.
Kendra: Awesome. And I love talking about this topic because I think it's a really misused word. I think detoxification is a very important process that we should always be thinking about all of us, whether you're a practitioner, client, everyone needs to be thinking about it, but it's a really overused, like kind of butchered word and it almost kinda has lost, it's like street cred to some degree because everyone out there is telling you that this will make you detox, that will make you detox, but when you actually kind of break down the building blocks of what that program or product actually is, like a lot of these things, they actually don't improve detox and a lot of them actually prevent detox altogether. So it's kind of one of my missions to try to make people better understand this because in my personal opinion, if you're not detoxing on the regular, you're going to be sick,
Kendra: and not gonna have energy and you're going to have a hard time losing weight and you're gonna have brain fog and you're going to end up with chronic illness.
Christine: Exactly. I think that is like the number one thing that my clients are very surprised about when they tell that they want to go to someone who wants to do a detox with them and I always ask them, 'are you sure is your body actually ready for this? And detoxing can be very dangerous. If you're already sick. It might not be the best idea to do full on detox.' And they look at me like super surprised. I find that is already showing that you have more knowledge than you know, a general, just like the average practitioner may be or someone who's just, you know, just dip, dabbling with supplements for funds.
Christine: Right. Well let's go into detox and maybe, you know, when I play the devil's advocate, when I think about detox, what I used to think was that you take a product, you eat certain foods and then your body just eliminates all the crap that it has inside and once it's done, you clean and shiny and sparkly, and everything is just working like a new brand new Ferrari engine. Right. So correct me if I'm wrong. Which I'm sure I am.
Kendra: Yeah. And there's a few, there's some truth to what you said, but then there's some caveats as well. And yeah, we're going to go through what detoxification actually is today, why it's important, but I'm also going to tell you how you can design an effective safe detox for your clients, where it actually gives the client what you're telling them, it's that you're giving them. Because a lot of people are like, 'oh, sign up for my detox program,' but the program actually doesn't help you detox. And so it is true. Like our body's always detoxing, right? Like we have detoxification pathways and methods and organs and cells in the body. And if that process were to ever stop, you'd probably be dead within a couple days, right? Like you wouldn't live very long because, you know, we're always, you know, bringing this crap into her body. So like detox, it's not just like, 'oh, like I do this detox once a year and I'm good.' Like, it's like, 'no,'like your body actually is always detoxing. Your body is very good at it. But the sort of caveat is the fact that we live in a very different than we did 100 years ago, right. In the industrialized world, puts a lot of chemicals into the environment and right now there's upwards of 84,000 chemicals in the environment in North America. I don't know what it is for Europe, but it's probably similar because we share the same planet, right? There's winds and currents and that stuff gets kind of spread around the globe. So you know, there's all these chemicals now being added into our environment. Only a fraction of them are actually being tested for human safety. Very few of them are actually being tested for long-term. The approval process of getting a new chemical in the US is ridiculous. Like they just like push it through. It's a little different in Europe. You guys are a little bit more advanced North American.
Christine: Yeah, it's like a proven until the innocent or proven until guilty kind of [inaudible]. In the US it's like anything is fair game until you prove that it's absolutely horrible. In Europe it's, you know, we're not letting it on the market until you prove that it's safe, right. So.
Kendra: Yeah. And I mean that's a much better perspective and I know like when it comes to ingredients in our personal care products, like Europe's were called thousands, whereas I think the US is, we're called maybe five or six or something.
Christine: I know.
Kendra: So it's like, okay, that's a pretty big difference. But you know, a lot of the chemicals that, you know, we exist with that we live in, we live in a very chemical world and they've been connected to allergies, cancer, birth defects, you know, mental health issues, psychological disorders, like they're all around us and like we are getting exposed like, I don't care if you are living in Nepal, at the top of the Himalayas, like in a mud hut. Like, you still have some of these things in your body. And the research is pretty clear on that, Christine. Like there's studies of a human breast milk, and in human breast milk, I mean they find persistent organic pollutants, they find heavy metals, they find pesticides, all kinds of contaminants, in human breast milk, right? Like, how's it getting in there? Well, it's getting absorbed into the body through food, water, skin, air, that sort of thing. And then that is making people very sick and this is, like, a topic that I think we all need to pay really big attention to. Like I know in the functional medicine world, everyone is talking about the gut and that's great. Yes, digestive health is important. We had an episode about poop. We love poop, we love the gut, but it doesn't go deep enough for me. And I think, you know, everyone saying, well the gut is the root of all illness. I think that's really misled, because I honestly believe it's chemicals, metals, toxins. It's our toxic environment because, you know, we see in our practices. Like me and Christine do a lot of gut testing and what we see is chronic infections that we have a really hard time clearing, even though they eat really well and they live a healthy lifestyle. They get all these infections. So the big question is like, well why is the gut so unhealthy? Especially when people are actually leading a pretty healthy lifestyle. Right? And I think that's where we start to dig into all these underlying toxins and chemicals that are making their way into our bodies.
Christine: Yeah. And I think the main organ or one of the biggest organs that we have, that we tend to neglect as our skin. Right?
Christine: So I tell people if you're chronically ill, if there's lots of things going wrong, just thinking about what you put on your skin. If you wouldn't put it into your mouth then don't put it on your skin because it's getting absorbed just as much, right.
Christine: And that is something that make a big shift in a lot of people, who in the beginning of hesitant, you know, who are like, 'oh yeah, well there's no parabens in there anymore, or maybe no sulphates and no soda cans,' but, you know, that's not it, that's not enough.
Kendra: Yeah. And there's other things in there too. A lot of products that tout themselves as natural health products, like when you actually look at the ingredients, you can find all kinds of stuff. And a really great resource is actually the environmental working group, ewg.org/skindeep. I think. You can actually input your personal care product into their database and it'll come up with all the ingredients and like what studies have linked them to. So you can actually get a safety rating for everything you're using or if you don't have time for that, you're like, I'm too fucking busy. I don't have time for that. Just look at their top rated lists. They have like a top 10 list for a lot of different products.
Kendra: And so that's a really good place to start. And I mean I think obviously with detox, like people will, you know, spend 10 days a year during their little cleanse or their little detox, and think that they're good, but you know, if you're not doing anything to address the incoming source then detoxification doesn't work. Right? It's like you've got this, like, sink with a tap that won't stop running and you clear the drain temporarily, but if you don't actually address the leak, I mean that sinks just going to keep overflowing and filling up. So I think detox always needs to start with looking at our environment and really kind of, I guess looking at our relationship with chemicals, right? Like what, how are we letting chemicals into our lives? You know, are we drinking tap water? Tap water's a really huge source of toxicity. Christine's like, 'Oh my God, it's so toxic.' Yeah. Tap Water, even [inaudible] water.
Christine: You really notice the difference. I never thought, you know, everyone is always in Luxembourg your tap water is fine, and I'm like, you know, it's maybe not even the water, but it's like just the pipes.
Kendra: Oh yeah.
Christine: You live in Europe, it's super old. The pipes in the village I used to live, were was super, super old and I realized that after I switched to tap, to mineral water, from Luxembourg though, because I don't [inaudible] like have reactions, right.
Christine: It was so heavy it, so it really showed me that it's not [inaudible]. So I'm just a huge snob when it comes to water.
Kendra: Yeah. You should be a snob when it comes to water honestly, because it's the main way that people make themselves toxic and a lot of places will tell you like, 'oh, we have really, we have the cleanest drinking water.' But like, yeah, it's because it doesn't have like faecal contamination in it. It doesn't have maybe parasites or bacteria. But, they're not filtering for metals, pesticides, you know, they're not filtering. It's going to have chlorine in it. It's probably gonna have fluoride. And the biggest thing with municipal water is actually a drug residues, right? Everyone's taking drugs, people taking birth control or hormone replacement, diabetes medication, whatever. They pee it back out into the water and that goes back into your drinking system. So that's a really big one that people need to be considering as well. Yeah. So let's talk. I want to talk a little bit about like what actually is detoxification, and like what parts of the body...
Christine: Yeah [inaudible]
Kendra: Totally. I think we have a bit of a delay, Christine, you're kind of cutting in and out for me.
Christine: Yeah. But it's fine. I'm just [inaudible]. It's okay, I'm listening.
Kendra: Okay, cool. Yeah. So what is, you know, detoxification. It's kind of a sexy word, but what it actually is, what it actually should be called is conjugation, which isn't very sexy, but it's just basically the process of transforming one thing into another. Goes through several phases of detoxification and it comes out as something that our body can actually process and run through the colon, the sweat, the kidneys. Something that's safe, because you can't actually put a toxin into the body and just move it out as is, the body can't do that. It has to be transformed. And so there's actually four phases of detoxification. And I know Christine, that the liver gets all of the kind of fame for detoxification, but the liver actually detoxifies a lot less than the skin, and then the cells in the stomach. So the enterocytes in the stomach actually detoxify way more than the liver. So does the kidneys, so does all kinds of cells all over the body. So it's not just the liver. We shouldn't just be thinking about our liver. We actually need to be thinking about cellular detox. And basically the easiest way to break it down, and I should have a whiteboard behind me because it'd be really easy to describe, but basically there is phase zero and that's when the toxin goes into the cell. Once the toxin is in the cell there is phase one and phase two. And that's what most people are familiar with,
Kendra: there familiar with the phase one and the phase two. Phase one takes a fat soluble toxin, changes it into a peroxide, and then phase two takes that peroxide and turns it into a water soluble compound. And then phase three is when that, that talks and leaves that cell and then gets excreted. So there's actually four phases. Phase one and phase two or phase three, were all, were recently discovered, but there are those four phases. And we actually need to be supporting all of those phases when you do a detox. And what's really interesting is there are very famous, I'll call them famous, like detox ingredients that people will pump you full of during a detox. And they're virtually in every single detox product. I do my air quotes, but they actually, they actually blocked detoxification and...
Christine: What the fuck, right?
Kendra: Yeah. And to have these are milk thistle and curcumin.
Christine: Oh! [inaudible]
Kendra: I thought you'd have that reaction.
Christine: I'm like, hang on, in every program I've ever read it's like Qq is like, yeah, that's the thing you need to everyday put it into smoothies, put it everywhere, brush your teeth with it.
Kendra: Yeah. So, I mean, I'm not saying those are bad ingredients, but for the purposes of a detox, like if you actually want to help someone detoxify, milk thistle actually blocks the, the third phase of, of detoxification, so does curcumin. So those actually prevents those toxins from leaving the cell. Okay. Milk thistle is very helpful for the liver. Yes. It helps rebuild the liver. It's very good for that. But for the purposes of detox, like it's not something you should be taking long term. It's not something you should put into a detox product. So you're probably going to go into your shelf and look at all your detox supplements and you're gonna to have to throw them all out.
Christine: Throw them all out.
Kendra: Yeah. Because they're going to have that. And so I, you know, I think that's a really important thing to consider because there's lots of products on the market that tell you they are detox products and they're not, and this comes down to the fact that like when you're detoxifying, you actually need to have three things present. You need to have something that's going to immobilize, something that's going to like stir up the toxins because the toxins are getting stored pretty deeply in our body, right? They're getting stored in fat cells, brain cells, organs, tissues, like they get, they get put in there, and especially fat cells, Christine. Like fat cells are kind of like this nice little like membrane thing and
Kendra: the body can push a toxin into there and it'll protect it from the rest of the body, right? It'll protect that toxin from the rest of the body. So the body doesn't really want to immobilize that toxin. So it's, you have to do something that's going to immobilize.
Christine: That's also, I think why, you know, when women want to get pregnant, I always tell them that now is not a good time because, you know, if you get rid of of that basic unleashes that toxic [inaudible], that's the first step, right. It's not, you have a regular load, plus your actually going to unleash and what’s been stored up. And especially also I know that women with endometriosis, that tissue's very absorbent as well, so not just for hormones but also for toxins, so, which is why there are so many inflammation issues, you know,
Christine: So, it's, I'm just saying if you're a women or you're dealing with people who have fertility issues, be very mindful of that, right. And for anyone how has a health condition or who you know is going to go through a hard time or anything like that. Just as a word of warning. Do not start a detox. When you know that there's something happening very soon like that. So it's a big process. It's a big deal, right.
Christine: You don't know how much is in there, how much is stored in there, you don't know what it is. You don't know how the body's going to react to it. And so just a little disclaimer, free warning.
Kendra: No, I think that's a really good point. Pregnancy, nursing, these aren't times where you detox and yeah, when I work with clients it's like if we're on, if we have them on like a gut protocol, where they're getting rid of infections and maybe we're doing some detox that we have to kind of give that all a stop. We have to hold that until after they're done breastfeeding, because you're right, it's not a time to be detoxing. You don't want toxins to go into the placenta and into your baby. Right? So, yeah, that's a really good point. But I love how, what you said about endometriosis. Because that's a big one for toxins. Especially because a lot of the plastics in our environment, they mimic human estrogen and that's a really big issue with a lot of these toxins or xenobiotics is that they look very similar and they act very similar to human estrogen and hormonal issues I think are very much driven by this chemical toxicity. And you know, I think males are having the same issues. Like you know, too much estrogen in a male is going to lead to like man boobs and weight issues, right?
Christine: And sleep issues.
Kendra: Yes, and sleep issues. Sleep like a boss.
Christine: Yeah. And I can see that at a lot when I run into something like the Dutch test and I can see everything pointing towards something and then I have a woman with endometriosis, you know that the results might be skewed because those little fuckers are just holding on to their dear life in [inaudible]. So it's just good to know that.
Kendra: Yeah. Yeah. And definitely like, like you mentioned with endometriosis, like those tissues are very absorbent and they're absorbing a lot of chemicals and toxins. And then when that gets shed every month, I think that really pays into that inflammation and that extreme pain that women feel has endometriosis. A lot of detox needs to happen with endometriosis for sure.
Kendra: Yeah. And so we've talked about, so the three things that you need, we've talked about immobilization you need to, and I'm going to give you guys some examples of these. So this will help you design your own detox program. There's, you want to immobilize, you want to kind of move those toxins out of the cells, out of the tissues. Number two is the actual like detoxification or transformation, conjugation, conjugation part, so that's something that you're gonna give them to help them move toxins into the body, to boost those different phases of detoxification. It's not going to be curcumin, it's not going to be milk thistle, it's not going to be black pepper, because all those things will block your phases of detoxification, but actually what I'm going to tell you in a second, is going to surprise you because these ingredients are these supplements that I'm going to tell you about, you've actually probably never even seen in a detox product, which is kind of funny to me, because they were actually the best way to enhance detoxification. So that's number two. And then number three is excretion, right? So we need to immobilize, we need to move things through the phases of detoxification, but then we have to help with the excretion and actually getting that out. And this is what most detox programs are missing. They don't do anything to help with excretion. They might stir it up, they might try to open the phases of detox, but they don't actually help you move it out of the body, which means that those toxins are probably going to get redeposited.
Kendra: Yeah, exactly. So that sucks. We don't want that, and that's how detox can make people sick, right. Can make people feel like crap because they're just stirring up toxins and not really moving them out. So let's talk about some of the things that actually help them immobilize toxins. So this will probably surprise you, but one of the best ways to do it is actually fasting and calorie restriction, because that causes the fat cells to burst, right? We want the fat cells to burst and dumped their toxins. So intermittent fasting or extended fasting or calorie restriction are actually really great ways to do this. And this is why I think detox needs to be part of weight loss programs because with calorie restriction, ultimately you are immobilizing toxins. And I actually think maybe the reason why people gain back their weight is because they dump a lot of toxins, but then they don't get moved out. So the body needs to store them again,
Kendra: body makes more fat cells or bigger fat cells.
Christine: Makes sense.
Kendra: Yeah. Yeah. So that's a good way to do it. I mean, that can be obviously a bit intense for people, but it's the best way to do it. Something else that will mimic the same effects of fasting calorie restriction is actually vitamin B3 or Niacin in higher doses. I don't know if you've ever used that, Christine, but you have to be careful with it because it'll make you flush. Like if you take it...
Kendra: in high doses, like it makes you go super red, like a tomato, you get super. [inaudible]
Christine: [inaudible] I had it yesterday, yesterday.
Kendra: Oh really?
Christine: No kinding. I went to see a friend of mine is doing Chinese medicine and she wanted to show you a new thing and she gave me this multivitamin and she was like, 'I put a little bit of B3 in there,' [inaudible] tomato, I hope it wasn't too much, but I didn't. So it was good. But it made me pee like [inaudible]
Kendra: Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. It has a really interesting effect on the body. And so you want to take it, like if you're going to take it, you want to start with a really low dose,
Kendra: like possibly like 50 milligrams or less, because if you go buy like a 500 milligram capsule like you're gonna you might, well you might puke because it's acid, so it will burn your stomach and it'll make you feel very nauseous and then you'll be super red. You'll be read like a beat, you'll be itchy. I mean, you're just going to be like, 'Oh my God, what is happening?'
Kendra: But what it does and there's actually a whole Niacin detox program that's very interesting. But you want to start with a small dose and kind of work your way up. So you could do like a two week or three week detox with Niacin where you start at 50 milligrams and you the way up as high as a thousand or even two. But there's actually this, and I want to mention this because I, this is just so so cool to me. So after 9/11, Christine, a lot of those firefighters were very sick because they got exposed to all those toxic building materials when they were going through the rubble of those buildings and a lot of them were demonstrating Parkinson like symptoms, neurological symptoms, like they were very sick and they actually were put through this Niacin detox which was developed actually by L. Ron Hubbard, the creator of scientology, which is random.
Christine: Your kidding.
Kendra: But, yeah, totally. He developed this way before he developed scientology, but actually is a way to detox people getting off of drugs. And so they went through this program, these firefighters, and basically it involves taking this high dose Niacin, some exercise, and then getting in a sauna and sweating it out. And they were sweating out purple. There's, you can go on Google and look up like 9/11 firefighter Niacin detox, and you'll see pictures of guys holding up towels that are drenched in purple from all the toxins.
Christine: Oh my God.
Kendra: The crazy things that they were bringing through their skin.
Christine: Mind blown people. I'm telling you, this is good stuff
Kendra: Yeah. I know it's, it's totally mind blowing. And it's really crazy. So I think it's a very effective, it's been around for a long time, but you know, obviously if you are doing the Niacin detox like it is best that you, you know, speak with a professional who knows what they're doing first, you should always consult Dr, Professional, that sort of thing. And, you need to be implementing the other phases as well.
Christine: Exactly [inaudible]
Kendra: The other thing I wanted to mention, that'll do it, that'll help them better for. Sorry, go ahead Christine.
Christine: Yeah, I was just going to say that be cautious about these things, don't forget when we told you, right.
Christine: Run phase one and phase two and phase three. This is just like the facilitator. You need, it's like having a plane landing, right? And then having the passengers are all the different toxins coming out and then you need a bus to shuttle them out, right. So right now where just helping passengers to get out of that plane, which is just like your fat cells and everything, and now you need to shuttle them off. Right? So...
Kendra: I love that analogy. I think that's great, like people will be like, 'Yeah, that totally makes sense.' And there is one other thing, and this won't do all toxins, but this is one I use, it's called BioSil. I'll just put that up to the camera for those of you who are watching us on video, but basically it's marketed for skin, hail, hair and nails, but it's just silicone, and silicone actually helped stirrup metal. So this might not get your, your chemicals, your xenobiotics, I'm not super familiar with it, does that, but it does stir up certain metals. So this is actually a really great part of a metals detox program is a little bit of silicon. And a lot of people are already taking it for skin, hair, teeth. But you can take up to 10 drops a day. It can cause a lot of fatigue if you have a lot of metals, you want to start with one drop, but again, if you're going to take it, you, you need to be doing the other things as well. So that's, that's what you need to do with immobilizing toxins. So if you design a detox program, it should either contain some sort of intermittent fasting, some sort of calorie restriction, or Niacin and be careful with the Niacin, because if you give someone a Niacin flush, like we mentioned, it's pretty unpleasant and it might make someone never want to work with you again. So, yeah.
Christine: Yes. They might think they have an allergic reaction and might die. So it's, yeah, no, no. Every time I, I've been weary of it, you know, when they told me, it's been the third time was something that I have it, I have never had anything happen, but I was like, 'I don't want to flush.'
Christine: [inaudible] just want to know about it but you know, I mean stuff with a super low dose and just do plan, stick to it and hydrate.
Kendra: Yep, hydrate, hydrate, hydrate.
Christine: [inaudible] if you have a reaction [inaudible].
Kendra: Yeah, yep, yeah, exactly. And it's temporary, like if you do have a reaction. I've had it. I've, I've overdone Niacin multiple times because I'm, I'm just like don't follow my own follow my...
Christine: Come on!
Kendra: I'm like terrible at following my own advice. But it is temporary and it will, it will pass. It may make you feel very sleepy. Like when I've overdone it, I've literally had people pass out because it makes me very tired. It also sometimes will make you like really goosebumpy, like it makes me really cold and sleepy and I feel like getting the covers and pass out. But yeah, just, actually take my advice, don't be like me, I, I'm horrible for following my own advice sometimes I'm just like, 'oh, I'll just, I'll just see what happens. I'll just, oh whatever. I'll just, I'll just try it.'
Christine: Maybe that was why I was so tired yesterday morning.
Kendra: Yeah, it can make you sleepy, for sure. So take it before bed.
Kendra: Okay. So that's the immobilization. And then we have to talk about the actual detoxification part. So that's where we're taking things to actually help boost detoxification. So milk thistle, curcumin, black pepper. Those things inhibit certain phases of detoxification. You don't want to take those. But things that have actually been proven scientifically, to help with detoxification is coQ10, St John's Wort, and then two strains of lactobacillus, the probiotic, the rhamnosus, and the plantarum. So that's funny, hey Christine, like, have you ever heard those into detox product before?
Christine: No. Like I, I'm the biggest lactobacillus rhamnosus, [inaudible] anyway. Gg strain is the one that I love, like, you need to know probiotics have different strains. The Gg is one that I love because it's like this old style kind of thing, I haven't, but it makes total sense. It makes complete sense to me. The plantarum I haven't seen before, no. Do you know, by any chance, if there are any strains that are better than others?
Kendra: Yeah. I just know the rhamnosus and the plantarum, so I know those strains. I know there's like different strains of each, but as far as I know, it's just those...
Christine: The main.
Kendra: Those main ones that will help. And yeah, the coQ10 and say, like coQ10 is typically something used with people with like, like MS and Parkinson's and St John's Wort is typically used for depression, anxiety, like mental health issues. But they actually are really great detoxifier. So it's just funny because, you know, I look at, and someone's gonna hate me for this, but like those, those shakology things, right.
Kendra: It's like, 'Oh, this helps you detox.' And I look at the ingredients and it's got a ton of things in there that actually block detoxification. And then it's just full of shitty low quality vitamins and minerals that aren't even very well absorbed and some like fillers, and I'm just like, this is a really expensive product, it doesn't help you detox. It's like, I'm sorry, but it's shit.
Christine: It's shit. Yeah. It's not doing anything. It's just random product in there that used to be, I think a lot of these products where developed in the 90's, early 2000's, and nobody's really revised them since then, right?
Christine: And then you have some products, you know, who have everything.
Christine: There you have milk thistle and Q10 and it's like, well that's not going to help either. Right? It's really tricky. So the best is to take things in there, you know, proper form not, I think it's super hard to find a really good all in one product.
Christine: I prefer taking things separately, tying them in properly, and having each individual product do their stuff. It's just more bespoke. It's more tailored, it's more efficient.
Christine: I just prefer that.
Kendra: Yeah, I agree. Like the thing about like minerals for example, is there a very heavy. Right? Very like physically heavy. Like they have all those electrons, like if you get nerdy and look at the periodic table, they just get heavier as you go down. Let's get nerdy and, the thing is if you're taking a multivitamin, like, like if it has everything in it, like you're taking it at such a low dose, that, that's why a lot of multivitamins or synthetic, because they're so weak when they're natural that they have to be synthetic. And I mean I don't think synthetic vitamins and minerals are helpful. And then if you're going to take a national multivitamin, like you would have to take like 10 to 20 times the normal dose to be able to for it to have any effect. Like when people ask me about multivitamins again, they're wondering about an all in one product that can be helpful. My favorite thing is actually marine phytoplankton. There's a company that gets an activation products but it's called Oceans Alive, Marine Phytoplankton. And it actually contains every single mineral and vitamin that the human body needs. Tastes like swampy seawater. But it's really good stuff. And it's in like a very safe, natural plant based form and the really cool thing about the marine phytoplankton is it's alive and if it had too many toxins in it, like if it was contaminated it would die.
Kendra: So that's how they can tell that it's good quality and it's not contaminated. So that's. And that will actually help you detox as well. That's a good like kind of base detox product because it has all the vitamins you need.
Christine: There you go.
Kendra: Yeah. So that can be helpful. But the other things that work really well, and Dandelion is actually a little bit more well known. I think Dandelion is well known.
Kendra: For its detoxification benefits and it does. So dandelion, Chicory root tea is really helpful. And then anything that boosts bile. So bile is something that your liver makes but it stored in the gallbladder and your body will secrete it every time you consume fat. Right? It's kind of like the dish detergent, like if you have an oily pan and you're trying to wash it with water, like you don't get anywhere, you need that soap to kind of emulsify it and break it down, that's what bile is. And bile is actually one of the most detoxifying things that your body has. So bitters are really great.
Kendra: All your bitter foods, greens, that sort of thing. That can be really helpful as well. So you want to be.
Kendra: What were you going to say Christina?
Christine: [inaudible] Is that some of my clients have gallbladder [inaudible] and as a result they were [inaudible], and to me, that's just so irresponsible. Like there's reason for all of this happening. You cannot just cut out an organ, right. So if you do not have a gallbladder, obviously you have to eat differently. You cannot eat as much in one go, just simply because, you know, the gallbladder is that to help the body out once its natural flow has, you know, emptied.
Christine: But what I do find is that you can help it with, I even had really great success with essential oils, actually. Essential oils that were great with plants, that help digestions and things like that. That could definitely help even topically. But that's just a little side note for those of you maybe don't have a gallbladder anymore or just like don't let it [inaudible].
Kendra: Yeah. And so if you don't have a gallbladder, like if you do have a gallbladder, I mean you could be doing things all day long to help stimulate bile and that's really helpful, but you don't want to be doing that when you don't have a gallbladder because then you're just dumping bile into the intestine because you have no storage place for it and then it can be a bit aggravating. So you just want to, you know, only take your bile stimulants when you are eating. Bitters are helpful. Actually, there's a product from UNIKEY called Bile Builder, that I really like. It's got everything that helps build bile and then you might add in some bile salts as well. Just to help because yeah, like gallbladders are really important. Obviously there are medical emergencies where it needs to happen. But typically if I'm working with someone and they're like, 'oh, like my doctor wants to take out my gallbladder.' I'm like, 'give me six months.'
Kendra: Like just, you know, give me six months. Like, I think we can. And typically they won't need to get it removed. It's just because their bile has become thick, luggy and toxic, and we need to kind of thin it out and move it through the gallbladder and make it like viscous again, like that word, viscous.
Kendra: Okay. So the last thing that we have to consider when we're making or building a detoxification program is that excretion part. And so we always want to be taking a binder, something that will help bind to toxins and move it out so that they're not getting recirculated. Typically fiber will do that. The most commonly known binders are things like charcoal, bentonite clay, psyllium husk or, chitosan, which is a shellfish fiber. So if you're allergic to fish, that's not an option. But the thing about those binders that is unfortunate is they, they do bind to all the crap, but they also bind to minerals and pulled them out of the body. So they're not a great long term strategy. So what I use instead, my favorite binder of all time is modified citrus pectin. It's basically just the rind of citrus fruits, and it's great because if you, if it's modified properly, if the people who make it modify it properly, it will get all the crap, all the toxins, all the metals, all the chemicals, even glyphosate, but it does not fuck with the minerals. It doesn't pull them out at all. So the company that has proven that they do this properly is Econugenics. So that's the only company I recommend for modified citrus pectin, because they backed up their shit with a lot of research. A lot of companies will say they make modified citrus pectin but they actually don't modify it properly. And then you're pulling out minerals with toxins which you don't want to do.
Christine: Amazing. So I had no idea. So I'm super like, 'WHHAAAT?'
Kendra: WHAAAT? So I've got some in my tea right now, I take it in my tea every single morning. It's a supplement. When people ask me, 'Hey, I'm on a budget, what's the one supplement I should take?' I always say the citrus pectin because it pulls out all that crap out of your body that we are getting exposed to. It's very safe. It helps boost glutathione. It helps stimulate the immune system. And so everyone should drink it every morning and thier tea.
Christine: I'm going to get that straight away. Like, I'm going to order that today.
Kendra: Yeah. So it's Econugenics Pectasol-C. Get like the, the big thing will cost you like $100, which seems expensive, but at five grams a day it lasts you three months. So it's not too bad.
Christine: That's totally fine. I mean it's like, it as I always say, this is just our vessel, right? We're just here because of this vessel that is our body. If we can help it to be less toxic. It's easy, you know, like.
Kendra: Yeah, totally. I totally agree. It's so important. Like, I mean I have, I have like a health budget, like I have like set aside money every month for what I assigned on my health because it's very, very important to me. It's a priority. I can't do my job. I can't be happy if I don't have my health. Right? So I think investing in our health is something we all need to be doing.
Christine: Yes. Agreed. Much more so than software, you can live without one software.
Kendra: Arg, I love software though. Dammit.
Christine: Me too, but like seriously, some of them are so expensive, their like $50 a month, were I'm like, 'Oh God.'
Kendra: Well everyone's on like a membership model now. Hey? It drives me crazy. I'm like, just give me a one-time fee.
Christine: Yes. But you know, instead you can just buy the supplements instead, you know, and it's going to make you produce a lot more too, which is good.
Kendra: Yeah, exactly. It's really good stuff. A lot of people feel really good on it, so highly recommend it. And then the other thing you want to be thinking about is actually like, okay, so we're binding, but we want to be actually forcing that excretion. Sauna therapy is probably one of the best ways to do this. It's the most well researched. It's really easy to get swept things through the skin. Right. And a lot of us don't sweat that much, especially if you know, me and Christine live in like of the northern latitudes right now it's winter. We're not sweating that much. I just came from Costa Rica and literally all I did was sweat like a Mofo for three weeks [inaudible].
Christine: I am a sweater. Like when it's hot, I sweat like a really great sweater, but there's many funny this, my nose, is like my main sweating organ, I kid you not.
Kendra: Really? Oh my God, that's so funny.
Christine: Nothing in my face well start sweating but just my nose, and you can literary see the drops like forming. I don't know why.
Kendra: That's funny. I mean I'm definitely a face sweater. I'm like, it's funny because when we go ski touring or like hiking like, with like, you know, the girls, they have all their hair out, their hair is so nice and mine's just like shellacked to my head and I'm like, 'Oh God, why do you guy look so good. I'm just so disgusting right now.'
Christine: Yeah. But I'm taking hot baths regularly. You know like, really hot baths that make me sweat. Like completely, like you know, oohh.
Kendra: Yeah, those actually work really well.
Christine: Yeah, exactly. You have the steam, you have the heat, you sweat it in the water so you don't necessarily notice it. But it's like you notice it afterwards because your body is like parched.
Christine: And then obviously the mindful for what kind of body lotion, put on too, because it's going to absorb it.
Kendra: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I mean, that's a good point because, you can, if you don't own a sauna or you don't have access to a sauna, you can do baths, you can do a really hot bath which will help you sweat. But, you know, any sauna we'll do like, it doesn't need to be infrared. I know infrared Saunas are big hype these days, but it can just be like the sauna that's at your local fitness center or gym or whatever. I actually own an infrared sauna, I have one sitting right over there. I love it. Best investment of my life. It's great because you can actually be in it. You probably need one in your office. [inaudible]
Christine: I need one. I am actually considering putting one into my office because I do have enough space. I just find it. It might look a little bit weird when clients come here and [inaudible].
Kendra: Yeah, I don't see clients here, but, just you know...
Christine: [inaudible] but I do have this space. It's huge. It's like massive. My new office is massive.
Christine: I just saw a really good deal recently, on an Expo model infrared Saunas that I love. I was like, 'Ohhh.'
Kendra: It's definitely a game changer. I bought mine last year and things have really shifted for me since owning it, you know, like I use it on a regular basis, three to four times a week, you know, I get all the great benefits from the infrared, right. It's really good for skin. It has a lot of good anti-aging. It has weight loss benefits, but yeah, the sweating is what matters. And so, you know, obviously infrared, you can spend less, you don't have to stay in it as long or, and you can stay in it longer. Right? It heats you from the inside out, because I know when you go to like a wood fired sauna, like you breathe it into your lungs and it's hard to stay in. But The infrared, like it has that extra benefit of, of allowing you to stay in longer. But really in the end just get a sauna, like try to make that a regular part of your health regimen. You should be recommending it to your clients. The other thing you can do, that can be helpful. A lot of people are super freaked out by them, but are coffee enemas.
Christine: Yeah, I have. My client last weekend and she was talking about a hydro colon therapy, which is a little bit like a coffee enema on steroids,
Christine: Work with hot water, hot water and pressure and it's kind of painful really.
Christine: It is really painful. You have the impression that you get [inaudible]. But coffee enemas are super relaxed, like.
Kendra: Oh yeah.
Christine: Get out of your head that your butt is a horrible place, right. It's actually much less worse than hydro colon therapy or colon therapy,
Christine: and you can just relax with it if you just let yourself go a little.
Kendra: And it's so true. And you know, it's so funny because I always tell my clients and my group members, I'm like, you know, just be open minded give it a go because most people are freaked out and then they fall in love. Like literally they fall in love with putting coffee up their butt.
Christine: I know, it's like this warm and fuzzy feeling and then afterwards it feels like a new born, and it's easy and we'll get specific. Not specific, but there's a very good video of a lady doing it on YouTube. Like you don't see every detail, you do see her doing it basically.
Christine: And it just shows you how simply it is, right? And it's just like, it's just a hole people, you know, it's like.
Kendra: Yeah, I think people are weird about their butt.
Christine: I know.
Kendra: But I mean personally I love pooping. I love to poop. It's just my favorite thing in the entire world. That's definitely tmi. But I'm into it. But yeah,
Christine: You feel so much better afterwards.
Kendra: Oh yeah. And it's my time, you know, it's like I read a book, I do some meditation, like I make it sexy in there, like light some candles.
Christine: Exactly. And there's a lady called Marissa something. I don't remember her name. I met her in August and she is the poop lady something and she said like the perfect poo is the length of your elbow to your wrist? And I was like, I cannot imagine that thing, but do you know why I couldn't?
Christine: European toilets are different than US toilets. Like if you have good poop in a US toilet, you would see the whole length, in European toilets it always breaks.
Christine: You never see it in its full glory.
Kendra: Oh my God, that's so funny.
Christine: So there you go people.
Kendra: Oh Man. That's such a, that is a great piece of information. I'm going to remember that with my European clients if you like, don't worry. You don't see the whole coil in the toilet because your toilets weird.
Christine: There you go, Kendra is rocking your world with science and I know that toilets work differently when pooping.
Kendra: We each bring something very important to the table.
Kendra: Yep, totally.
Christine: Tip of a tube that is much smaller.
Kendra: Yeah. It's very small and you know, the, the, what actually is happening with them. If this is your first time hearing about them and you're like, well, why would you put coffee up here? But it's because of the caffeine in the coffee. Once it's in the colon, it actually goes directly into the hepatic portal system, which is like the little capillary system that connects the colon to the liver and the gallbladder. And when the caffeine gets to the liver, gallbladder actually causes them to contract and run bile through and dump the bile. So it's a great way to help yourself like detox that bile. So it's a very mechanical way to detox the liver. And, you know, I know for natural cancer therapies, I mean they all have people doing these like three to six times a day just because that's how toxic people with cancer are. And so they're, you know, they're very safe to do. They tap it, typically make you feel good. Most people don't react to the caffeine the way you would if you drank a cup of coffee. Some people find them stimulating. I mean if you're going to try it for the first time, you should probably do it earlier in the day just to make sure. But I mean, I love them. I do them regularly. My boyfriend thinks I'm crazy. We joke around about butt coffee all the time.
Christine: [inaudible] he's like, 'why don't you want to do anal if you do that?'
Kendra: Oh my God, I love that. [inaudible]
Christine: [inaudible] Well we have to edit this out.
Kendra: Nah, we'll just leave it in.
Christine: Like yeah, it's seriously. It's not, it's, put some music on. Like literally put some soft music on, get into the groove of just relaxing and just, it's literally something great for your body. Your body will love it.
Kendra: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Most people really like them after they've done them. So. So yeah. So that's what you need. So you know, if you want to create like, you know, we're coming into this episode is probably going to be released at being in January. Obviously January is a big time for the health industry for launching things because that's, you know, people spend December ruining their health and then in January they were ready for a new start. So this is a good time to create a detox program for your clients, right? So just make sure you're doing something to, immobilize toxins. You're doing something to boost that detoxification and then you're doing something to stimulate excretion and that's actually gonna get your clients results. That's actually going to make them feel good. And then the other thing I just wanted to mention is really think about things you can be doing on a daily basis to help yourself detox, because detox does need to be a daily thing. And you can, it doesn't need to be this big thing, you know, like I, will have a small cup of organic coffee first thing in the world because that helps stimulate bile. I have salty water first thing in the morning because it has minerals and minerals help you detox. Like, you know, I eat my bitter foods, I drink my dandelion tea, I get in the sauna, I do a coffee enema. Like there's things that you can be doing on a regular basis that we should be doing because we really do need to think about it daily because on a given day, who the fuck knows how much shit is getting into your body.
Christine: Yeah, and you will feel so much better. You will be more alert, will have better energy, you will sleep better, your skin will look amazing. So it's the only benefits people. It's literally one benefits and you can do small things. You don't have to, you know, worrying about not having enough time to lay down on the floor and do a coffee enema. It's just an example that we gave you enough options that you can definitely do.
Kendra: Totally, yeah, just putting that modified citrus pectin into your tea every morning is a good detox strategy as well. And you know, with detox, I think the most important thing to keep in mind is the goal is not to do it quickly, fast detox is not safe. Because we accumulate so many toxins over our lifetime. Like we might be detoxing things that have been on our bodies since we were kids. Right? If you're a child of the 80's, like us, you ate a lot of butter or not butter, margarine and toxic like cheese and all kinds of weird shit, right. The 80's is like the worst time [inaudible] right?
Kendra: What was considered healthy in the 80's is like pretty disgusting. So there's a good chance me and Christine have margarine sitting in our tissues.
Christine: It's right here. I can tell you exactly where it is.
Kendra: Oh my God. Yeah. So, you know, slow, long term detox is key and wants to be gentle. I don't recommend quick detox and it's something that you should do more than once a year. I mean, you design a little, like 10 day detox, you know, do it several times a year. Launch it as a group program, right? Like, wouldn't that be a great group program to do a 30 day detox where you spend a couple of weeks like helping people like build up and kind of pre-prepare for it. Do 10 day detox that includes these three things we just talked about and then do some sort of final, you know, recovery, restoration thing, like that could be a really great 30 day group program that you could launch a couple of times a year. Right.
Christine: And your testimonials will go through the roof.
Kendra: Yes. Yeah, yeah. I think. I think we really need to educate people on what detox actually is and how to actually do it and why it's not just, you know, like I go crazy when people are like, 'Oh, I did the master cleanse.] I'm like, okay, you just starved yourself and eat sugar for three weeks. Great. You know, or those detoxes.
Christine: Yes. And we are supposed to be like, 'YAY.'Gosh.
Kendra: Yeah. There's a lot of weird things out there that they detox, like, yeah, those weird wraps. And I'm the wild rose cleanse. I'm not trying to bash these companies, but the wild rose cleanse that people do, it's just like, it's not really a detox. Sorry guys. These companies [inaudible].
Christine: No no.
Kendra: All right.
Christine: My end, I didn't know my Wifi is weird today, but. Okay. I think that's pretty much it. Don't forget, this is a lot to take in. We have it in the show notes on our website 360healthbizpodcast.com, where you'll find links for all the products that can Kendra mentioned today and you have a complete detox program right there. It's all there. You can literally just go and highlight it and print it out and then you have it ready for you to use, and it's going to be efficient, it's scientifically backed up. It's going to be amazing, so everything is right there, so don't forget to check that out and if you've learned, here's my challenge for you, if you have learned anything knew during this episode, in-concluding difference between US and European toilets, then please go to iTunes right now and leave us a five star review.
Kendra: Yeah, and it's so easy to do, like if you're on the app right now, you literally just go to the search bar search 360healthbizpodcast and then you can actually go in and do a little like five-star review. It literally takes two minutes and helps us get out there. If you want to support us, you think we're kind of cool even just a little bit. That would be the best way to tell us.
Christine: And we are, I mean, we totally are, but it's like, yeah, even if we teach you something, if there was anything you learned, that would be amazing.
Kendra: Yeah. We want to know. Awesome. Well, it was super fun hanging out with you Christine.
Christine: As always.
Kendra: As always and, we'll see you guys in the next episode.
Christine: And we're recording this in December 2018. So all of you guys have a happy holidays. Even if you're listening to this in 2025 and we've changed our opinion already, never mind. We're still wishing you a beautiful 2019.
Kendra: Awesome. Take care Christine.
Tools mentioned in this episode:
Living Matrix The new standard for functional medicine. Your partner in creating superior, life-changing patient health outcomes.
Clinician Business Labs An online incubator for clinician entrepreneurs. A platform to assist clinicians scale and amplify their businesses.
- Grab our FREE Practitioner Tool Kit to get a list and review of all the platforms Kendra and Christine use personally in their businesses to save time, money and generate consistent income.
About Meghan Walker:
Dr. Meghan Walker is a naturopathic doctor and Entrepologist, focusing on the health optimization of female entrepreneurs and game changers. As an entrepreneur, Meghan started and sold her first business while in University and is a Co-founder and past CEO of the digital health media start-up, Bright Almond. She is the host of the Entrepology Podcast, Founder of Entrepology Labs, creator of the women's performance supplement line, Badass Basics and Chief Cheerleader at Clinician Business Labs - a platform to assist clinicians scale and amplify their businesses.
Meghan is fueled by the core belief that when people are well, they can change the world. Meghan views women as natural entrepreneurs, physiologically predestined for creation. She is driven to support them in achieving this potential by optimizing their health and mindset. Meghan has spoken internationally and through multiple media outlets on topics related to women's performance health and entrepreneurship. Most importantly, Meghan is the mother to three little girls, who is raising alongside her superstar husband in Toronto Ontario.
Contact Meghan Walker:
Christine: Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the 360 HealthBiz Podcast with myself, Christine Hansen, and usually Kendra Perry who is chilling in a hammock in Costa Rica right now. So I got myself another partner in crime for today's episode and we are here with Meghan Walker, and we're going to talk all things business. But first, if you do like our episode, if you do like listening to us, don't forget to head over to iTunes to leave us an amazing review and you can also see the video live or actually not live, but you can see it on our blog, 360healthbizpodcast.com.
And so without further ado, I'm going to present Meghan to you so that you know who we're going to talk to. So Dr. Meghan Walker is a naturopathic doctor and Entrepologist focusing on the health optimization of female entrepreneurs and game changers. So that's you guys out there. Even if you're not a female, I suppose she could still help you. As an entrepreneur, Meghan started and sold her first business while in University and is a Co-founder and past CEO of the digital health media start-up, Bright Almond. She is the host of the Entrepology Podcast, Founder of Entrepology Labs, creator of the women’s performance supplement line, Badass Basics, adore, by the way, love that name, Chief Cheerleader at Clinician Business Labs, watch out for that, we're going to talk more about it. A platform to assist clinicians scale and amplify their businesses. So I'm going to stop there, there's much more to say you can check out the complete bio on our notes, on our show notes. But Meghan, welcome so much to this episode. I'm so excited to have you.
Meghan: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Christine: So I'm really, really happy because Kendra and I, we both love talking business. We really, really do. And that's why that's one of the reasons why we created this podcast because I think it's really important, especially if you're in the health sector, it's different and other businesses, right? It's not like money coaching or you know, other business coaching. It's very, very different animals, so we love to talk to people who've, you know, walk the talk, who have had a successful career and who you know, can share tips with our listeners. Now the first thing that we'll usually do is we share a trick of the trade tool, so something that we love to use in our businesses and I ask, I ambushed you a little bit with this one,
Christine: But if there was one that you really liked, which one would it be?
Meghan: Well, you know, I have. I asked if I could have more than one, but I'm going to focus on one. You know, we have a tool that we use in our office and this is a cool hybrid between a health and business and it's called Living Matrix, and Living Matrix is a female run company out of New York. And this is a functional medicine platform and what Living Matrix enables you to do, is you can either have it on the front of your, your site and prospective patients can come and they can complete the questionnaire or you can give it to your patients in subsequent follow-ups. And it literally built out this functional medicine Matrix and where their body is stressed and where it's compensating and it becomes this really amazing tool because then you sit down with your patients, they completed it online, they're told that they get a result, and they can book an appointment with you to sit down and go through it, because. And I understand the functional medicine matrix is beyond the average person.
Meghan: They can't do it, they can't grab strategy from it. And so it becomes this really incredible platforms. So I use it as a practitioner. I still see patients because it's a way of me aggregating data in a unique way, but it's also this really incredible way of bringing new patients...
Meghan: and creating curiosity. So Living Matrix...
Christine: 'There's your problem, now hire me,'it's...
Meghan: Yeah, I don't work for them. I just like it. Yeah. No, it's great. It's great tool.
Christine: This is fantastic. I'm going to add that to the show notes for sure. Living Matrix. And I'm going to check it out, like I've never heard of it before.
Meghan: Oh yeah, no, it's great.
Christine: So there we go. We can stop now. That's fine. No I'm kidding.
Meghan: Thanks everyone.
Christine: Bye. No, literally, I'm mind blown. Okay. I'm going to check it out, people before you head off to check it out, finish and listen to the episode first, but what will happen in the show notes. But Megan obviously, I chose you to be a guest because we love to learn more about running a business, right? And health business is just different and you have successfully created this platform. So I want you to talk a little bit more about that. And also I find a lot of the people that I talked to have invested a lot of money in traditional business coaches,
Christine: Who usually train business coaches, right?
Christine: So, and they find that a lot of strategies just don't quite work. So maybe you can explain why and maybe things that you have found are just different.
Meghan: Yes. So but, if just stopped me because I have this tendency to talk, but my background is as a naturopathic doctor. And, I was, I was drawn to this profession. Secondary to an interest that I had in business. So as you mentioned, I had a business, I had sold it and, and I grew up in a fairly entrepreneurial family, so that was a given that I was going to go into that field and then I discovered naturopathic medicine and I was like, 'oh, so such a smart way of thinking.'
Meghan: Right, and so I couldn't, I couldn't shake it. So I was like, all right, fine, I'll go. [inaudible] I went through this through this lens and, and I set up a practice and we started to build that practice, and we tried a few things and some things worked and some things didn't. But, you know, one of the things I realized early on in, in my career is that I had a profession where I understood why everyone needed me, but consumers in turn did not understand why they needed to come and see me.
Christine: [inaudible] Yes.
Meghan: Right? So when you have a business where your service is incredibly valuable and your level of responsibility and, education means that you're going to command a certain price point, but then consumers have no idea why you're valuable. You're marketing costs are so disproportionate. And so what it did is it created this, this landscape where I was like, man, we've got all these incredible practitioners with a body of knowledge that could truly transform healthcare and they don't know how to talk to consumers because there's this complete disconnect. And I was sort of fascinated by it, and I was also really frustrated for my colleagues just because I was like, I have really incredible clinician colleagues who could be really transforming the health of people and they don't, they don't know what to do. And so I sold my practice to my business partner five years in and I decided to establish a micro-practice myself. But then I was like, I want to look at how we can expand access to consumers to practitioners. And so really went deep on that to understand what people were doing well, what people weren't doing well. For me, my own. I had, I had some natural knack with respect to business in my back pocket and started to do some strategy work with practitioners. And I consider myself more strategist than a coach.
Christine: And my area of expertise is really understanding how do we create expandable, scalable practices for practitioners that don't deplete them, that doesn't mean they're treating more time for hours. And doesn't always mean they're going online.
Christine: Oh, I have tears like in my eyes.
Meghan: So wait, but you asked what's different, right? And I have practices where like I need people to stop telling me that I can only exist in the online space because they're like, 'I want to see people, but I'm burning out.' So we build these really interesting hybrid programs where they can leverage the online space and in-office space we helped them create transformational in-office programs so they can teach to colleagues. So they can either licensed their methodology or they can bring in other colleagues to work in there and practice it, you work a fraction of the time but your whole team is delivering your care model. So we really start to teach people frameworks to expand their way of thinking, because not only do I think we deserve to earn a really great living, but I think that we also, through the use of innovative thinking, we can reach more people. And so it had practitioners all the time, I'm just going to lower my rates to make myself more accessible and I was like, 'you will not do that. You're going to innovate to become more accessible. You are not going to commoditize yourself.' So we just have a lot of different frameworks that we, that we use, we do. We spend a lot of time really helping practitioners understand their worth and value, and then build out a business plan that is unique and different but ultimately helps, helps people. And so we ran a big event here in the fall called, impact lives, and we made a public declaration that by 2025 we want to help 50 million people reach green practitioners,
Christine: Oh my god.
Meghan: which means we have to make a lot of practitioners,
Meghan: expand their reach. And so that's, that's what we're committed to doing.
Christine: Oh, mind blown.
Meghan: Like, like big, big, big, big goals. Because this is really powerful what we're doing, so.
Christine: [inaudible] absolutely.
Christine: I think there's so many people. Like personally I have a business model where I would never [inaudible], I would always just work with a handful of clients. That's what I chose to do, but I do know so many people who are like, the heart's desire is to help as many people as they can. Right. So it's, both are fine, you know, both models are absolutely fine,
Christine: but if you ask someone, and I think the typical practitioner that I have in my head, that's probably your client I would say, is someone who has that idea, you know, who has already conformed. So is asking, I don't know, $60 an hour, I don't know. Average. Something like that is working 40 hours, minimum, maybe 40 hours, seeing people a week, but then having all the back work, you know, getting prepped and all that stuff is coming on top of that. So more of a 60 hour week. What is the first thing that you usually tell them to do? Or what is the one step where you say, okay, that needs to be the groundwork before we can do anything else?
Meghan: Yeah, I usually take them out of practice at least one day a week.
Meghan: We just, we just slash it from their schedule. So there's massive trepidation, and then we usually increase their rates by 30%, because we create some innovative ways for people to access them. But we do that because everyone gets caught in this model where they're working in their business and they have no foreseeable way to start working on their business and they start doing it at night once the kids are down and it's like 8 o'clock in the evening and they're exhausted and they maybe poured a glass of wine and then their like, 'I'm going to work on my business?' You're not, like, you're not gonna work on your business, you're gonna look at one email and you're gonna go to bed.
Meghan: So we just take an entire day off their, off their schedule. And I remember the first time I did that for myself, I tripled my income within the next quarter.
Christine: That's crazy.
Meghan: I just honed in on my, on my, on my strategies and I blew through that myth that I need to see more people to make more money because that has a ceiling and you can't burst through it. So, yep. So take people out of work.
Christine: So when you say 'innovative,' like for me, innovative is obviously something new or something that has existed, but in a new way, what would be one of the techniques that you would say it's actually not brand new, but we just do it in an in a way that hasn't been done before? So what would be one thing that you can see in practitioners eyes when you tell them go like, 'oh,' you know, like this 'ting,' mind blown.
Meghan: Right. Well yeah. So sometimes yes, sometimes it's about like reaching more people and then sometimes it's about how do you leverage your existing platform so you're not wasting time redoing the same thing. So for example, I have got some really great colleagues near me and they've thought out these incredible group coaching programs, and if you want to see the practitioner one-on-one, you've got to graduate to the group coaching program first. So they don't have to do months of like, this is what gluten is, and this is how you take out dairy and, and this is what your hormones should look like, you go through the curriculum before you have access to that practitioner, and they're building a community at the same time. So you know, we know that community is so vital and critical to someone's health and so they built that. So these people are feeling amazing before they even walk into the practitioner's office. So the works really easy. Another example would be the utilization of health coaches in a practice. So if you're a clinician and then I see my role as a naturopathic doctor to set strategy for my patients, but I can't be on the phone with them everyday to implement, and it's the implementation that's gonna make a difference for them. So getting strategy based practitioners to start to leverage people who are highly trained in implementation is a game changer for everyone, creates new income streams in it and it shifts things around. So those would be two examples where we can just innovate in the delivery of care and those weren't even technology dependent.
Meghan: Technology. Right. And the technology example might be, you know, if we're doing, like a really comprehensive hormonal evaluation or it gut health evaluation, I could sit for an hour and explain it to a patient or I could record a five minute video and uploaded into their patient portal and ask them to watch it and then after bring any questions to the visit. And now we're having a 20 minute follow-up, not a one hour follow up. It took me 10 minutes to create an uninterrupted video and they can go back and watch it. So there's lots of ways of creating efficiency through innovation that's not, it's not expensive, it's just about bringing a creative lens to the stuff we've already got.
Christine: Alright. So I'm going to play the devil's advocate here because I love what you're saying. Absolutely. But I can hear people, you know, have this little voice creeping up, 'but if I have a coach working with me, obviously I can't charge as much because I have to split with a coach or if I'm just going to send that video, obviously I can't charge as much because I don't spend as much time with them.' I guess these are, you know, objections you hear all the time.
Christine: Why is that not true?
Meghan: Yeah, I love that question. Here's what that question assumes and where we're stuck, when we're asking that question, the assumption is the only value that you're giving people is your time. And I would say the most valuable thing you're giving people is your strategic thinking and your body of knowledge. And for my patient base, the more efficient I can be in my appointments, the more grateful they are because they've got busy stuff to do. So if I can bring them in and say these resources are already in your portal and as I've linked you to this video and Dah, Dah, it's all there and we're just going to touch base and set strategies, they're like, 'Amazing, thank you.' And I say to them, 'Right now. Now you're going to meet with your health coach.' They're like, 'thank you.' It doesn't cut into my rates. It's still just, it's the same price to come and see me because you're buying my strategy. You're not buying my time.
Christine: Oh my God, this is so true. And it's also your clients, their time is precious.
Meghan: Their time is precious. Yep.
Christine: It's so funny. I have, my program has two different. I have three programs, but basically two of them are exactly the same except that one takes 6 successions and the other is one day, because we do everything in one day.
Christine: One day one starts from 10k because those people are just like, I don't have time for six sessions, you know? So it's just, it's also respecting their time because they are like, I prefer having a Saturday or Sunday where we'll break out into this and you know, work hard and then I have follow up if I need to because they are doers. So it's time, it's just, it's not your time. It's their time as well. So how do you communicate that element? Because I think people, it's not just the practitioners who have this mind-set, right, that it's like the time that it's been paid for,
Christine: but sometimes a certain type of client has the same kind of idea. How do you communicate that strategy is what you pay for instead of time and it is logical, but what would it be like, for example, a sentence or something that you've noticed that when your clients are saying it, their patients actually get.
Meghan: Yeah, so we just. We spent a lot of time really understanding what the outcome is that our patients want to achieve, and then asking the question, how do you know when you're going to be successful? And so when we, when we lay those pieces out in front of them, then we said, part of our methodologies, we're going to build a strategy and we tell them right in that meet and greet appointment, that appointment they're not even paying for where they're just getting to see if there's good alignment. They're like, this is how we work, so we're highly committed to outcome for you and we have two layers of people who are gonna help you, the strategists, and the implementers, and here's why we've seen them be successful. And then at that point if people are like, 'No, I just want to spend three hours with my naturopath.' I'm like, 'Great. I have tons of people I can refer you to. It's not how we work,' and what I've historically seeing, because I get pushed back from new entities, because they're like, 'No, we don't want to say no to the patient,' and they really want to, they want to work on diet with the patient, for example, because they want a reason to bring them back and charge them for another visit. But what I see happening is you have a practitioner who should be working as the strategist, who sees the patient for all the implementation and you can't get through much. So by the time someone's benefits are expired or they've just lost interest in the process. All you've done is take a dairy and gluten and put them on a multivitamin and they're like, 'Ah, naturopathic medicine doesn't really work.'
Christine: Yeah, it's just a generic kind of stuff.
Christine: It's not.
Meghan: It's really not. It's actually really sophisticated what we're doing. So where we can leverage different individuals to, [inaudible] something like apps to coach, not necessarily health coaches, but where we can use different things to help with that implementation piece. We want to do that because that's gonna, that's gonna make or break patient, patient success and I just don't have enough time to do that.
Christine: Yep. And I find that high quality care is actually a person with a great referral network, you know, saying, 'Look, this is not my boathouse. I'm super great at this, but here is my network and I think this person would be amazing for you.' And that's also I find a sign of being a person of integrity and being a person who has a certain standard in class. Literally. Because you have that network of amazing people and you know what is the most efficient for your client. And clients love that. Clients love to know, okay, well connected Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah. I get the best care of whatever is possible. Even if it's not like that person itself, which is totally fine. It's much better than the mind-set of I need to keep everything for myself. It's just not worth it. The more you let it go, the more revenue will come in. It's crazy like that. It's like.
Meghan: Yes. Yep. My best referral sources are from people who I've actually never treated, but saw and referred out to other high quality along the line people and they're like. And they just, they just keep sending new people. It's amazing. It's amazing.
Christine: And it's, it's what I say all the time. Also I niche on a certain type of person. Right? So I'm just, my price tag is not for everyone and one of the things that I always say is I don't take it personally if you find it too expensive, right. And that's when people are like, 'Oh, thank you.'
Meghan: Yeah, absolutely.
Christine: But being honest like that, that's what is creating a bond that goes even beyond working with them one on one afterwards.
Meghan: Right. Yeah.
Christine: So walk me a little bit through your process when. Okay. I can imagine that I have lots of people who are listening right now and they're like, 'Oh my God, I want to work with her. I want to know what her company is like, how can I get on board? I totally need this.' So what, what we through the process of how do people get in touch with you, what do you usually do? What would it look like?
Meghan: Yeah. So we have two core, we have two of our core programs that we offer. One is called the first 18, and the first 18 is really designed for is a foundational business program and we originally launched it for new practitioners and it was like, what are all the strategic business things you need to understand from the second you get your license through that first 18 months of practice. And so this is everything from marketing strategy, to financial planning, to operational strategy, because I just want to help people think like an entrepreneur. And so that, that's our, that's our foundational program that a lot of, while we intended for it to be for new practitioners, we have a lot of people who are like 10 years out like, 'Actually, I feel like I never got the basics.' So that's often where people start and then we have, a more advanced program called the clinician code, and the clinician code is a one-year program for practitioners, and we're gonna look at doing a six-minute version, but there's a lot of material to cover. And what we do for practitioners over the course of the year is we help them find their area of authority within the marketplace, and then develop an in office transformational program. And so one of our area of expertise is to work with regulated practitioners who have to work with, with regulators, but how do we help them start to build out strategic programming. And usually the implementation of that becomes a hybrid of an in office program and some elements that are online. But we talked about things exactly like we talked about today. How do we create innovation within tools that you already have within your practice? And what we really want for people to have at the end of that is a full transformational program that they could then choose to license if they wanted to license, that they could grow out within their practice if they wanted to do that. How do we build on residual income opportunities on top of that, but it becomes the backbone upon which we build all these other elements of their practice. So that's what we really look at accomplishing in that when your program. And then I do take on a really small number of private coaching clients on a quarterly basis.
Christine: I love it. I absolutely love it. I have one last question. I know that you have a sweet spot for female entrepreneurs, but you do this for men and women don't you?
Meghan: Yes, I do. So in my, in my medical practice, that's where I work a lot with female entrepreneurs, but in our coaching with Clinician Business Labs, yeah we'll work with everybody. But I mean there's so many women in healthcare now.
Christine: I know.
Meghan: It's, it's, it's amazing. And, you know, I had, when we, when I launched my start-up and we were doing funding and I was flying back and forth to California and I was pregnant with my third child and I, so like I get it and that's part of the conversation that I can have with women is, how do you build up a clinical practice and how do you build up any kind of business while you're also, like, you got little people and, and how do you balance all of that? And, and, it's just, it's another area I'm really passionate about, but it's why I ended up having this conversation with, with women is we're in a, we're in a unique position, where we're trying to build a family and a business at the same time.
Christine: I totally agree. I absolutely love this. I'm going to be very blunt. I have kind of an idea what you did, but not really.
Meghan: No problem. Those are the best interviews, right?
Christine: But we did meet or we did connect through the mindshare group. So everyone is out there who hasn't joined joint mindshare yet, have a look. It's an amazing community, by Jj Virgin and Karl Krummenacher. Is that his name? I think so. Check it out. Made amazing connections there. So that's how we got, somehow got into each other's spheres. But I have to say I'm really, really, really happy that you've been on this podcast because it's completely in our boathouse and inlined with what we preach and how we run our businesses. So this has been phenomenal. So last question, we're going to have everything in the show notes, but when people are fired up right now and they're like, I need this, how do they get in touch with you or your team?
Meghan: Yeah. So you can always find us at our website. It's clinicianbusinesslabs.com. And probably the fastest way to link to that is just through Instagram. And my Instagram handle is @DrMeghanWalker. Meghan with an H. [inaudible]
Christine: That's so interesting. Instagram, huh?
Meghan: Yeah. Oh yeah. I hired through Instagram. We like, we hang out on Instagram a lot.
Christine: That's. See that's like a whole other topic, we need to reschedule. Kendra is huge on Instagram too, like I kind of dabbled around with it but I don't really get it, but yeah. Okay, good. Well it's trade marketing. Obviously, it seems to work. So, okay. I'm super excited. Thank you so much for sharing this wisdom,
Meghan: Such a pleasure.
Christine: like it's been lots of light bulb moments and I just know that so many of you listening this is going to be such a shortcut, like and, I cannot recommend getting help enough, like trying to, figuring it out on your own. It's not worth it. Really get some help and I think you know Meghan and your team, you would probably be amazing at this, so I hope that lots of people will reach out. I love what you shared with us today. Thank you so much. And if you guys out there like the two, then leave us a five star review on iTunes. You can also become a patron of the show. It's all on 360healthbizpodcast.com where you will also find the transcripts and the show notes and the links about everything that we talked about today. So thank you so much Meghan.
Meghan: Such a pleasure.
Christine: And we will be back in two weeks together with Kendra that time. And, I hope you have a wonderful well, Thanksgiving as we are recording this. It's probably going to be later, but you know, then it's going to be thanksgiving, 2019 or 20, whatever. It's gonna be a new one. So I'm happy Thanksgiving for all of you guys and we'll be talking in two weeks. Bye.
Tools mentioned in this episode:
Provider Resilience Application that gives healthcare providers tools to guard against burnout and compassion fatigue as they help them. Available for all devices and free.
Breathe2Relax Application that is a portable stress management tool which provides detailed information on the effects of stress on the body and instructions. Available for all devices and free.
- Grab our FREE Practitioner Tool Kit to get a list and review of all the platforms Kendra and Christine use personally in their businesses to save time, money and generate consistent income.
- Grab Dr. Hallett’s FREE guide, “10 Steps to Being Stress-Smart & Becoming Your Own Best Friend.” http://bit.ly/ownbestfriend
About Kristina Hallett:
Board Certified Clinical Psychologist and Executive Coach, Kristina Hallett combines science and soul for practical, fast results. She uses her decades of psychological experience and down-to-earth approach to facilitate progress and change. Her mission is to bring the latest scientific research to practical application, helping people feel more empowered and productive. Kristina is also an associate professor, speaker, author, and co-host of the Be Awesome Podcast, featured on Mental Health News Radio. She has been featured widely in the media, including U.S. News and World Report, NBC News, Reader’s Digest, Huffington Post, Medium, Bustle, and many other outlets.
Contact Kristina Hallett:
Christine: Alright everyone, hello and welcome to this episode of the 360HealthBiz podcast, and today you will have me on my own without Kendra, who is actually lounging in a hammock in Costa Rica at the moment. Bless her, not jealous at all, but I do have wonderful company. I have Dr. Kristina Hallett with me and we are going to talk all things burnout. So today is going to be a continuous education episode for you guys. And so let me introduce Kristina very quickly to you. So she's a board certified clinical psychologist and executive coach, a combination which I adore. She combined signs and so on for practical fast results. Killer combo, the only thing that works in my opinion, she uses decades of psychological experience and down to earth approach to facilitate progress and change. Her mission is to bring the latest scientific research to practical application, helping people feel more empowered and productive. Kristina is also an associate professor, speaker, author, and co-host of Be Awesome podcast featured on Mental Health News Radio. She has also been featured widely in the media, including US news and World Report, NBC News, Readers Digest, Huffington Post, Medium Bustle, and many other outlets. So we are here with a pro. I am super excited. Kristina, welcome so much to our episode here.
Kristina: Oh, thank you Christine. I am delighted to be here. This is so much fun. I love is. How wrong is it that I say, I love talking about burnout and compassion fatigue, right? Because...
Christine: Most of us, we love talking about poop as well, right?
Kristina: Exactly. Yes, exactly. So this is one of my sort of like, you know, Hashtag banished burnout, right?
Kristina: As long as knowledge is power and the more we know and that's so true in all of the work you do. You know, I, I have looked through, we've talked about your work and it's so impressive how you really look to bring in every element of a person's functioning. So I'm thrilled to talk with you.
Christine: Yep, absolutely. And that's what we're going to do today when we talk about burnout. So it's going to be a fantastic episode. I'm really looking forward to this. Now, before we start though, for everyone who's listening, as always, we're going to start with a tech tip and Kristina is actually going to share her favorite app today, and as always, don't forget to surf over to iTunes. Leave us a five-star review if you're like this, if you like our guests, just give us some love and you can also support the show and become a patron of the show. It's all on our website, 360healthbizpodcast.com. So Kristina, Kendra and I, we love geeking out on tech, right, like we love digital business and you have an app that you wanted to talk to us about today. And for those of you who are listening on the podcast, if you actually surf over to the blog, we are recording this and video form and you can actually see her demonstrating this, so just a quick note on the side. But without further ado, let us know what is your secret kind of weapon that you have in your arsenal.
Kristina: Oh, and there's so many of them, so it was a little hard to just pick one. But today I'm going to tell you about an app, and it's free and it's available on Android, IOS, like you name it, you can get it, it's free. And it was ultimately developed in the US as part of the, Department of Defense. It was developed for the military. There's a whole suite of apps and they're all ones that I use. And there's tons of research that went into it and they are completely appropriate for all civilians as well. So I use these in my executive coaching across the board. I also tell my students about them because I'm teaching in a graduate clinical mental health counseling program. So this is number one what providers need, and it's called Provider Resilience. What could be better? So I'm going to tell you what's on it so that listeners can hear, but I really do encourage you to go to the video because some of this you just want to see. Open up the app right at the top is a, it's like a half rainbow, and it's your overall resilience rating. And so for those of you who are watching, there it is. That's the resilience. Okay? Now I have these set up purposely, I have a separate one, so I have two of them. This one I use for demonstration purposes, you'll see why. So that half rainbow goes from low where it's red, because we usually associate red with warning signs, all the way up to green, which is good. Love that. Love green.
Kristina: And so, all of these different components that I'll describe are a part of this app and they make up your overall resilience rating. So right underneath that you can put in, this cracks me up, time since your last vacation.
Kristina: That's one of the keys for burnout, right? So in my demo, this is not the truth. This is not the truth, but I'm going to tell you that according to the app, since my last vacation, it's been two years, one month, 10 days, 23 hours and five minutes.
Christine: I would die.
Kristina: That would be so bad, right? So not only is that a ridiculous amount of time, but I love the specificity.
Kristina: It literally counts down to minutes since your vacation. So you can just add in when you're most recent vacation has been and then keep track of it because as providers, that's one of the things that we often forget to do.
Kristina: We're so busy taking care of other people and hello, we need to walk our talk and do this.
Kristina: So there's a vacation clock, there's also a section called burnout and there's a whole burnout scale that you can do, and one of the tools in this. This is why there's so much to this one app. That's why I'm like, it's just phenomenal. I talk about this in presentations I give across the US and internationally and literally people are pulling out their phones and downloading it because it's, there's so much in it. So there's something called the pro-qual, and that's the professional quality of life scale. And it's really nice to have this as a measure. It's a nice measure. It's a self-report. It's about 26 questions, and as you fill it out and then scores it for you and you get three scores, you get a compassion satisfaction score, a burnout score, and a secondary traumatic stress score.
Kristina: That gives you your overall pro-qual or your professional quality of life. So we know that as soon as you have, and I'm sort of getting into what we're talking about here, but it's all about the app, so tech and talk at the same time.
Kristina: We have to have some marker, and then we continue to do this and we compare the marker so we can see, are we making progress? Are we doing better? Which one of those particular skills is moving in which direction? Right. And it's all right here. So see down here is the pro-qual. That's, that's the pro-qual. Again, these are demonstrations but each one of them gives you a little rainbow. And it tells you, in this case, apparently, oh this is so bad. It's been 838 days since my last update of the pro-qual. So it keeps you accountable as well.
Kristina: I know, but again this is for demonstration, so I'm aloud.
Kristina: Now it has another section called Resilience Builders and Resilience Killers. And so it's got examples. And so examples of resilience builders are, did you take a short walk?
Kristina: Did you perform at debts? Stretching or isometrics? Things like that, and you can put in your own something that you've identified as a resilience builder. And then when you go to resilience killers, that you're going to love this. Did you skip lunch?
Kristina: Have you eaten junk food? Did you come to work sick today? Right? So it's got all of those different things, and then it brings you back to your dashboard. Now there's also tools. One of these tools that cracks me up is called, 'Remind me why I do this.'
Kristina: You also get a graph of your pro-qual results and a graph of your burnout results.
Kristina: And then, my, one of my, I would say this is my favorite, but they're all my favorite. There's a section on physical exercise and what it is, it's the directions on how to do various chair yoga poses.
Christine: [inaudible] I love that.
Kristina: Yes. And as you just simply scroll through, it gives you different exercises and I particularly love this. Overall, my approach for all of us as professionals is that we need things that we can do in about two or less.
Kristina: And many of these things we can do either sitting at our desk or literally when we take the bathroom break, right? And often there are so many things about counteracting burnout and working towards resilience that we say, 'oh, I just don't have the time for that.'It's going to, like we think about, 'oh, take me half an hour to get to the gym.'[inaudible]
Christine: Change and...
Kristina: Yeah. So know everything that I'm talking about are things that are free. They're accessible, and they're very brief.
Christine: No excuses people.
Kristina: Right. And oops, lost the headphones I want to listen to. So, so this one is super great. And the one caution, that it's not a caution, the one reminder that I give to people, is if you're going to do one of these exercises, make sure you do both sides because you don't want to just turn to one side and forget to turn to the other side. So do both sides. And then the final area in this particular app is something that's called value cards. They're alphabetical, so at the moment what shows up is idealism.
Kristina: And so it has a little text describing idealism, and if I swipe, then comes up independence…
Kristina: initiative. So there's another one, so there's a whole alphabet word, integrity, joyfulness. So different values that are important to us as healthcare providers, really important to us as people, but particularly when we're in the business of healthcare, we are some of the worst...
Kristina: at taking care of ourselves. And I'll use this as a teeny segway because do you know that in the most recent studies in the US on physicians and Burnout, over 70 percent of physicians who are surveyed show at least one of the characteristics of burnout.
Christine: Oh my gosh, let's get going on this because my ears are like, what? So I mean, burnout is like this term that's being thrown around all the time. You know? Yeah. Some people who use it very negatively because unfortunately, you know, it's, a lot of people don't really know what it is. They don't know what it manifests likes, there's abuse that is being, you know, I don't know, in Luxemburg in particular, there's lots of people who abuse it and they just get three weeks or three months of work because they claimed to have burnout. So I think it is first of all important to understand what it is and how it manifests, especially either to become aware that you as a practitioner might actually be going down a slippery road or, what I also find uber important, is when we're working with a client and I mean not everyone is qualified to work in that particular area. A lot of us are coaches and I find that it's our duty to know when we've reached our limits, and I find knowing that someone is on their way to a real burnout that's out of our boathouse for most of us. So for me, this is really on the one hand looking at ourselves. You just said how many practitioners are actually well on their way of suffering severe burnout. How to diagnosis or how to get good idea of what this might be going on with my client or when it's time to refer out. So I would love to talk about these areas. I know it is super vast topic, but I know you are the go to person to talk about this, so I cannot wait to soak up your knowledge on this.
Kristina: Oh, thank you. And that's literally one of the things that in my executive coaching I really specialize in because I have the psychological knowledge. So I'm a person who literally others refer to when they get to this place, when things have become too much.
Kristina: And so I love the fact that we're able to think about this. And I'm going to start off with giving you an example of a time that I discovered that I was burnt out and because it happens, it doesn't happen at the same frequency necessarily all the time, and it's not always obvious, and yet it's something we have to pay attention to. So my big personal hashtag is always radical self-care. Because that means, right? Literally paying attention to what's going on and radical self-care for me means things like setting limits and having boundaries and owning your strengths and knowing when to say no and when to say yes to you, things like that. So that's the talk that I'm always giving to everybody. Here's a day, I drive home, and usually I parked in my garage, and I walked through the garage into my house. As you walk in, there's a long table, and that's where we put the mail and other things that are going to go in or out. So every day in a row I walk in, I look at the mail, I leave things, I move things, it's fine. And usually what happens is the dogs run up to greet me and my husband comes over because he's usually home first and he gives me a hug and a kiss and I say hi and I look at the mail, blah blah blah, you know, normal, ordinary life. So I notice many days in a row that there's like a basically a lot of junk on this table, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. 'Hi, how you doing? I add to what I take away all fine.'And then this one day I walk in, and as I walk in, the dogs come over, my husband comes over, he's smiling and saying hi. And I look at the table and I look at him and I'm like, 'what is all this mess?'And he's like, oh right. He's sort of gives me that look. And I was like, 'is anyone ever going to clean this? Like what is going on here? Why does this look like this?'And there's a pause. It's just like, 'Oh God, you know what, what is she doing?'
Christine: 'What is going on?'Yeah. Lost the plot.
Kristina: And he very gently says, 'honey, I think that's all your stuff.'
Christine: Wrong thing to say.
Kristina: Well actually, luckily because this is my area, right? And we've got to, you know, heal thyself. So I look at him like, 'you're right.'And I thought instantly what is going on? Like this was an over the top reaction.
Kristina: The scenario was no different than any other day before and yet this. And it wasn't even that much. Like you know it, this is one of those, it took like five, maybe six minutes to put everything away and clear it off. So this...
Christine: But it just triggered. Yeah.
Kristina: Total trigger total over the top irritability and reaction. And luckily we work, he and I well enough together and he knows me and if he says, if he's going to call me on the carpet and hold me accountable without sounding defensive, there's something for me to look at. It was very clear to me, as I looked at it, that I had gotten to a place, because I was loving what I was doing and busy. So it wasn't that things were bad.
Kristina: But I wasn't following the steps that I teach people regarding radical self care.
Christine: Right, ok.
Kristina: And that those little irritants had grown and grown and grown and I hadn't stopped and taken the time to shift the pathway.
Kristina: Whether it was the mess or internally, and so therefore match, tinder, boom. Off I went now it wasn't a bad episode of burden. It was like one of the early stages of that. But that kind of irritability, that's something that is an absolute emotional sign that burnout is going on.
Christine: See, I would just think, 'oh, I just had a back day. I'm a little bit tired.' You know, so I'm actually self-evaluating myself and I didn't have like a trigger like that. But it definitely feel tired and so much going on that I'm like, 'Ooh, hang on, I might need to do some yoga poses here.'
Kristina: Exactly, exactly. So let me just go over some of the different categories of symptoms that we might see.
Kristina: Obviously they, these can account for many different things because you just gave a good example. We know that you’re the sleep expert and so not having enough sleep is certainly something that can contribute to getting some of these symptoms, but not sleeping is also a sign. It's one of the very first physical signs of burnout. So chronic fatigue, insomnia, getting sick a lot, weight gain or weight loss, appetite changes. Those are some pretty significant physical signs. Also aches and pains, a lot of aches and pains are a sign that you want to pay attention. Now if you just have one or two of these, obviously we always want to look to them straight medical first, is there something going on for us physically for anything because we want to rule that out, right? So I don't know if I had pneumonia, for example, or mononucleosis. I might be very, very tired and feeling achy and sick all the time, but in the absence of a known clear physical illness...
Kristina: you need to pay attention to that. So similarly, lots of headaches, stomach aches, aching joints, fatigue, insomnia, change in appetite, and again, I know that you'll appreciate this. We might also see an increased drive for junk food, sugar, particularly sugar at nights. Yeah. So physically that's what we'll see. Emotionally, anxiety, depression, irritability, anger, pessimism, cynicism and detachment.
Kristina: Right. So one more sort of like, 'oh, just go away, just leave me alone and go away.'
Kristina: That's again, that's sort of another, to me these are all yellow flags.
Christine: Interesting. Yeah.
Kristina: Right. So you want to think like how many yellow flags do I have?
Kristina: Similarly, at work, it could be a drop in productivity or forgetfulness, difficulties with concentration and attention. So all of those can be signs that burnout may be going on and we want to pay attention to that because if in fact we're seeing a whole bunch of, oops I just, something went wrong. If we're seeing a whole bunch of those different signs, then accumulative number of those or seeing that over a number of days. So absolutely as you said, anyone can have a bad day, anyone can have a bad couple of days, but when you're beginning to feel this way more as more often than not, or as a regular course, you really want to begin saying, 'hm, let me do an assessment.'That's why I love the Provider Resilience app.
Christine: It's true.
Kristina: Because you can log this and you can sort of say, 'hm, how are things going?'Now one of the other things that we know, is that everybody has this recency bias. So anytime someone comes into my office and I say, how are you doing? Literally they start telling me about the last 48 hours.
Kristina: The 48 hours are good. They're like, 'oh, I'm great, blah blah, blah, blah,'and then they say, 'oh, you know, a week ago x tragedy occurred, but you know, last few days.'
Christine: I'm fine.
Kristina: Or they've had things go really well, but in the last two days they've gotten stuck or they're struggling and they come in and they're like, 'oh, I feel awful.'
Christine: I get it. Yeah, it's like when my clients come, I've been sleeping well for two months, but the last night I had a bad night and it's like, 'oh, come on.'You've been sleeping so badly before every night, so yes, Yeah.
Kristina: So we want to pay attention to that for ourselves and in our clients. Right? We want to keep in mind that people are immediately looking at really the short term past what's gone on. And so that's why I love tracking, so using particularly tech tools to track how are you doing or how is your client doing, having your client track, doesn't matter and you know what? Your client doesn't have to be a healthcare provider, anyone can get this app. So even though I'm saying 'Provider Resilience' and it was made for healthcare professionals, it works for everybody. That's what's fabulous.
Kristina: But particularly relevant to the healthcare professional.
Kristina: So we begin to track this. We're like, 'okay, I'm having more and more of these signs. What's going on? What do I need to pay attention to?'And then we need to step back and begin to take sort of an inventory of what am I seeing and how strongly is this feeling? You know? And so remember I mentioned pessimism and cynicism.
Kristina: Right? So I want to highlight those...
Christine: I have the [inaudible] my cynicism sometimes.
Kristina: So and so do I mean I am, I consider myself a realist, although my friends will often also say that I'm Pollyanna, not so I don't ignore the truth. I totally believe in bringing in a realistic view, but I want it to be balanced. So I think our goal is balanced. We don't want to be up all the time. We don't want to be down all the time, right? We want that seesaw to be relatively balanced. So the prime key for me is when you look and you say, am I in balance? Like in general, if I think of the last week or the last month and having data helps, then am I in balance? Or are there more days where I'm catching myself being this other way? So I'll give you an example from one of my executive coaching clients, senior executive. And the reason she came to me as she, she said, 'hey, I think I'm having some real anxiety, maybe going into depression and so maybe I need therapy.' And I said, you know, can we talk coaching first before therapy because like, let's see where you're at, let's assess this. So instead we did coaching and what it was was burnout, and here was her sign, her number, two major signs, one was she noticed that at work, little things were irritating her.
Christine: Yes, I have so many clients with that.
Kristina: She was finding herself being a little shorter or a little more snappy to her staff, and she was really beginning to think, 'okay, how quickly can I retire?'Now this was a young woman. She was not at traditional retirement age, you know, sort of early, middle age. And so literally as she loved what she did, she didn't want to stop it. But she understood that she was feeling irritable.
Christine: Something was happening. Yeah.
Kristina: Yes. And I think one of the things that we do is when we begin to question this, we might go into this other area of, am, do I have an anxiety disorder? Is this depression, anxiety and depression go hand in hand, and we may be feeling more anxious, so she was also waking up and immediately overwhelmed by thoughts of her workday and what was she going to do, and how could she manage it and would get anxious. So she was experiencing anxiety. She was experiencing some of the early signs of maybe like an irritable agitated depression, but she didn't have a full blown anxiety disorder or she wasn't in a major depression. And that's part of that differentiation I think is important because early intervention can make such a difference and so I don't want us to pathologize things and that's what we do. We tend to say, oh look, right, because we're often so critical, so I was fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. And now everything's, everything's blown up and it's awful. And that's where that pessimism and the cynicism can come in, and we are sort of overly negatively catastrophizing how we're, how we're doing.
Kristina: So the other sign for her was that she would come home and she was too tired to do the things that she said she knew she should. So she wasn't exercising, she had a hard time at making a healthy meal and she'd sit on the couch and eat cookies and basically give herself a hard time mentally about sitting on the couch eating cookies and not exercising. And so literally she was like, I know what to do. Like, you know, I'm not an idiot. I know exactly what to do, but I can't get myself to do it.
Kristina: And so what I said to her, as you know, let's think about this differently. What if we think about this as burnout and what if we say it's at a stage of burnout that absolutely, in a very short period of time, there are some things that you can do, hashtag radical self-care, in order to stop the progression and turn things back so that you're back to loving the work that you love, feeling, that you have energy doing what you need to do to take care of yourself.
Kristina: So one of our very first interventions was starting the day off with laughter. Laughter is the best, biggest hit of dopamine that we can get.
Christine: I love it.
Kristina: Dopamine makes us feel good, right. So she loves, this sounds so silly. She loves funny YouTube cat videos.
Christine: Oh gosh, who doesn't.
Kristina: Right? Exactly.
Christine: Totally up there.
Kristina: Dancing parrot. I liked the dancing parrot, right? They crack me up.
Kristina: So now traditionally we would say, don't look at your phone right away. Don't go on media. Okay, that's all well, generally speaking, that's true. As in don't dive into it.
Christine: Don't check your email. Don't go on the internet. Yeah.
Kristina: Exactly. But for her, the minute she woke up, she was flooded with these anxious thoughts about what she had to do and how she didn't want to do it. So we needed to get that to stop right away.
Christine: Not spiral out of control. Yeah.
Kristina: Exactly. Five minutes of silly YouTube videos, she would laugh...
Christine: I love it.
Kristina: and then get out of bed with the energy and the positive mood to face the day.
Christine: I love that.
Kristina: Shower, eat, etc. and later go look at the email. So that's just one example. That's radical self-care.
Christine: That's amazing.
Kristina: Right? And that's what I mean. Simple intervention, simple short, no cost or low cost interventions.
Kristina: Some other interventions that we used for her, really worked with her on time blocking in her day. So as a senior executive with an open door policy, because she wanted to be accessible to her clientele, she didn't feel like she ever had time that was focused to do what she needed to do and the burnout was inhibiting her focus and concentration. So we talked about, if you think about this as coming from a place of you want to have the most to give those that you work with, you must have a break. And there is so much research in the...
Kristina: peak performance and mindset, literature on the fact that we can only work for a certain amount of time...
Christine: Of course.
Kristina: and then we need a break.
Christine: It's much less than we actually think it is. Like an eight-hour workday it's just ridiculous. You never going to get eight hours of work done, it's just ridiculous. Power naps baby. Yeah.
Kristina: Yes. So we actually need, the research says, and it depends on what it is that you're doing, but somewhere between 50 and 75 minutes, we must take a break. Meaning you can't work longer with focus concentration than either an hour or an hour and a half, sort of depending on what you're doing or what your profession is. And so at about 50 minutes you need to take a brief break. What do we do? We pull up our Provider Resilience app and we use some of those things to rejuvenate us during that.
Kristina: So again, right? We're talking five minutes or less, and that context switching in that moment, basically reboots your brain so you can go back in with increased focus and concentration. So that's one of the ways we use some time blocking.
Christine: I love it.
Kristina: We also had her set aside some dedicated time where she could in fact close her door for half an hour and attend to those things that were really high priorities...
Kristina: but that would, right? Again protecting her and saying no, so she could say yes to her to have more, to give.
Christine: Love it. So this is obviously super important when we have a client or when you know for ourselves, you know, if there's someone listening and it's like, okay, I see I literally coach five clients a day for one and a half hours. It's like, come on, you know, how's your brain supposed to do that So I think for ourselves, this is a super important one. Now my next question would be, I know that if you know, you have a case where this person wasn't as mindful or wasn't as open to, you know, get help straight away. I mean, this lady, she was aware, she knew that something was going on and most of the time our clients usually feel that something's not right. What do we do when we have someone? Because if you have a full blown burnout, it's seriously physical incapacitating and it can leave permanent damage. So, what would you suggest? What are some of the signs where you would say, okay, this is actually not just a yellow flag, there's this like orange verging on red. When is it time for a general health care provider or health coach to say, this is not my boathouse anymore. I need to refer this out in order to give my client the best care possible.
Kristina: The things that I see most commonly at that more advanced stage of burnout are an unremitting fatigue, a sense of hopelessness and this negativity or pessimism about the ability to change.
Christine: Interesting. That is a thought I cannot change anyway.
Kristina: Right? There's nothing. It literally comes down to I'm helpless and hopeless. There's nothing I can do. I have to do ABCDE. There's no getting around it, nothing can change. And our thinking, the more burnt out we are. We just talked about a lack of mental flexibility.
Kristina: So the more burned out we are, we're not regenerating and we're not recuperating and so we have narrowed options that we're seeing as what, how we can manage something. So I mean I just think of parents who will say, 'oh, we'll have to take care of my kids and I have to work and I have to take care of the house and blah blah blah blah blah.'And you say, 'well, what if you wanted or what have you left the dishes in the sink overnight.' 'Oh, I can't possibly do that.'
Christine: Okay. So complete inflexibility and, and like not seeing the forest for the trees.
Kristina: Right. And this degree of, it's not even, it's even beyond flexibility. It's often this, huge resistance, and that won't help.
Kristina: Even if I did that, that won't help.
Christine: See, I wouldn't have known that. So this is super interesting to me, okay.
Kristina: Yeah, so again, we're often using the relationship we have with the person to say, how about, how about you? I'll say like, let's test the hypothesis. Let's do an experiment, right? People love that. People like, all right, right, fine, because we're not gonna. I'm not gonna say, I mean I think I'm right, but hey, what do I know? I'm not you. You know this. So are you willing to engage in a little experiment to see what happens. Now one of the core techniques that we're using to manage burnout aren't really because burnout is about stress and stress management, right? Whatever the stressors are, it's all of that. Stress doesn't have to be bad, but that's a whole other conversation. The power of stress. But when we're talking about in this way, one of the impacts, again, of stress, is that decrease in cognitive flexibility. And stress means that our limbic system and our Amygdala is highly activated. So basically we're on red alert all the time.
Kristina: That's why we get the irritability. We have a greater startle response.
Christine: Yes. Just on edge.
Kristina: At all. It's almost done. Right, I'm on edge. I can't catch my breath even though you're not out of breath.
Kristina: That feeling like the world is coming down on me.
Christine: Your lungs are just too small suddenly. Yeah.
Kristina: Yeah. So breathing. Now I literally, people look at me and they just sort of roll their eyes and they're like, seriously? Seriously like, do you like have anything better than that? I'm like…
Christine: I know. They want something new.
Kristina: Let me tell you. Yeah. And I'm going to say my techniques fall under another catchphrase. 'Simple, not easy.'They're very simple, but it's not easy because you have to make a commitment and you have to persevere in applying the technique. So it's simple but not easy.
Christine: Love it, yeah.
Kristina: And so really validating that like, this isn't going to be easy, but if you don't want to feel as crappy as you feel, I can change that.
Kristina: And we start that with breathing. So I'm going to throw in here another little app for you because this is one of my favorites. There's about a bazillion different good breathing apps and I will say to people, 'hey, find one search, find something that you love that works for you,'but the same group that developed Provider Resilience, did this app that I'm going to tell you about, and it's called Breathe2Relax. So it's the word Breathe with the e, 2 the number 2, Relax, also free, totally available.
Kristina: And the reason I love this is it has an audio component, so there's a voice that tells you what to do. You can set the background, so you have a pretty background and you can adjust the length of the inhale and exhale so you can customize it. But the part I love the best is it has a little cylinder that fills up as you inhale and then the cylinder.
Christine: So you visualize it.
Kristina: Exactly, exactly. If someone has an apple watch as an example, there's a that there's a little circle and it gets bigger when you breathe in.
Christine: I love it, yeah.
Kristina: Fabulous. So again, we're talking like you can do this two minutes, two minutes or less when you go for a potty break. So, it also gives you a rate your stress, so you can rate your stress from low to high so you can track it as well is, it's always about tracking. But if I go to this, come on. Alright, I'll just start this and I'll show you a little teeny bit of it just so you can see the cylinder. And again, for those of you who are listening, check out the video so that you can see this because it's pretty awesome. All right, so oops.
Christine: Oh yeah, I can see it. Alright and so now and again, yeah, I love that. So you have this cylinder filling up and basically emptying out again, I love it.
Kristina: Yes. And I picked flower background because it's nice and it's a soothing voice, whatever, but you can set it to whatever you want. So what we know is that all of our sensory memories, good and bad, are stored in the limbic system. That's what the amygdala does. And that's our warning system as well. So when we use additional sensory components, we can help calm the amygdala down even more. So this app in particular, we've got the audio sensory who have the visual sensory, right? Both of those are there as it's guiding us to do the breathing, which is the important piece that we're really trying to do. So it's the breath that makes such a difference. The amygdala in that with the other sensory components.
Christine: Exactly. And that's what I love to tell people is that you are in control. Like your brain, yes, it is incredibly complex, but it's also incredibly basic, and you can control it. It's the best thing in the world, especially if I have people who are like, 'everything's out of control. It's spinning out of control. I'm just a slave to my thoughts.'And it's like, no, you're not. You can use your physiology to literally control your thoughts.
Christine: Which I think is super powerful and empowering really people in so many different ways. I do these things with my clients before going to bed, but this is definitely something super easy. But yes, not or simple, not easy. Which I think is a great tool to let people know, and I love also that you told us what to look out for. So we're running out of time, but I think we know after this episode, we know what to look out for, what you watch out for, for ourselves. Like I definitely have a couple of yellow flags at the moment and super stressful at the moment. Right now. My business is going great. So lots of stuff going on. So I need to walk the talk as you said, but also for my clients, like, I looking back, I definitely had at least five to 10 clients where I would say they were definitely showing some signs. Inadvertently I do a lot of techniques that help burnout as well. But I loved that you said that one of the main things that you have to kind of think about referring out is that when people become stuck, you know.
Christine: And really give up on themselves and just think this is never going to change. And if you don't have the right way of talking to them, I believe that you hit a wall and you're not serving them. So for everyone out there, if you do have a client like that, please, maybe they can even get in touch with you and ask you for advice. How would they do that?
Kristina: Oh absolutely. So you can always reach me through my website, which is a DrKristinaHallett.org. D r K r i s t i n a H a l l e t t dot Org. You can also email me and seriously my email is out there everywhere but it's Kristina M as in Mary, KristinaMHallett@Gmail. I'm so happy to talk to people. You can reach me through LinkedIn or Facebook and this is exactly it. And you know, one of the things that I do is I often partner with other coaches. So for example, if you were working with someone on your sleep coaching and they got to that point...
Christine: I'm just like, oh, not quite there with my practice, which, you know, I do stuff paper to a certain limit but I'm not a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist or whatever, you know. So I know when I reached my limits I would just say, look Kristina, I want to refer you someone, let's just do this together. And if they fine with it actually may be exchanged notes, depends on the kind of course. Yeah.
Kristina: Exactly. And then I would work on that piece and then send them back to do the piece that they were doing, because I'm not trying to be an expert in everything either.
Kristina: So one of the people that I work with in fact is teaching people about money management and being in charge of their financial side of their business. But same thing if a person you see this with entrepreneurs all the time, if they get burnt out, they're stuck.
Kristina: Those blocks that need to be addressed so they can go back and do that. I don't want to teach somebody about the financial aspects of running their business. I'm good with mine, you know. So that kind of thing. So I absolutely love that, because to my mind, then everyone's getting to be in their wheelhouse, their area of expertise…
Kristina: but also making a difference.
Christine: Absolutely. And I think it's a sign of being an integrity and it's also a sign of being a high end coach if you have a referral network, if you have a team that you know can help you with, just showing that you have a great network and it's just professional. I just find people knowing when to say stop and having someone they trust that great to work with, that's just showing how professional you are. So anyone who's doing coaching but it has a lot of these types of people and it's like I don't feel quite equipped for that. I think Kristina would get better results. She obviously has the experience. She has the credentials. We just heard her speak, so everything's just been golden. Then do you get in touch with her. We have all the links on our website, 360healthbizpodcast.com. You'll just have to click on the links and you can get in touch with her and I just think this is amazing. Have a look at the video where she's demonstrating the app. We're going to link it as well in the post on the transcript and that's all we have time for today. Kristina, I cannot tell you how grateful I am for you being here and sharing all this system with us. I think it's a topic that's, you know, people roll their eyes as soon as they hear the word burnout because it's just been used so much, but it's very, very real and I think because so many people are fed up with it, they don't care to even look further into it. So I think this is a golden episode that every health practitioner is mandatory to listen to it.
Kristina: Well, thank you so much for having me on. As I said, this is my passion because I truly believe that we can feel better and when we feel better, we give better care and so that means that we're literally making a difference in changing the world, and we have to start with ourselves.
Christine: Yes, we do. I love this. I'm totally in love with you right now. Crushing hard.
Kristina: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Ditto, so there with you.
Christine: Alright, well everyone, thank you so much for tuning on, surf over to iTunes if you've enjoyed this episode and give us some love there, and all the links on our show notes on our website and we're looking forward to talk soon, next time together with Kendra and stay tuned for more business tips and also continuous education tips, which we did today. So thank you so much for being with us and that's it for today. So bye.
Tools mentioned in this episode:
HARO Providing journalists with a robust database of sources for upcoming stories and daily opportunities for sources to secure valuable media coverage.
SourceBottle A free online service that connects journalists with sources.
Selena Soo's Impacting Millions Program to teach you how to connect with the media and land high-exposure opportunities. Learn how to get featured, published, and interviewed in blogs, podcasts, magazines, and even national TV shows.
Kendra: Hello. Hello everyone. Welcome to another awesome episode of the 360healthbiz Podcast. I am your co-host Kendra Perry, and I am with my other co-hosts, Christine Hansen, who's looking lovely and beautiful. As always!
Christine: Love that intro. It's like...
Kendra: I know, every time I just got to flatter you a little bit. So today we're going to be talking about a really awesome topic, and I'm probably gonna learn a ton today because this is definitely Christine's thing. Christine has been featured on TV and in all kinds of media outlets, and that's what we're going to be talking about today. We're gonna be talking about how you too can get on TV or featured in other media outlets which can help you grow your health coaching business. So we're going to dive deep into this topic today, but before we get started, we are going to quickly discuss, a tool that is actually very, very related to this topic. And the tool is called HARO. And I'm going to let Christine tell you a little bit about this, because she knows way more about it than I do.
Christine: Yeah. So HARO was pretty unknown three years ago. It's picked up quite a bit of traction since then, but it's called, 'Help A Reporter Out.' So H-A-R-O, Help A Reporter Out. And what it is, is basically it's a platform that you can sign up for free and you have reporters asking for experts three times a day in their different topics, and these reporters are not just like your neighborhood blog, like you have the, literally you have The Independent, Readers Digest, [inaudible] magazine, even the New York Times I think I've seen once or twice, Shape Magazine and so forth. So you really have like the whole hearst kind of thing on there, everyday health, like major major outlets. And what you do is you basically go through the sections to take a look at what could be for you. So for me sleep is pretty much on there at least twice a week, and then you pitch. So we're going to talk about that a little bit in detail later. But, it is a fantastic tool. It has helped me a lot to get my first visibility kind of steps, and it's free. So check it out. I think it's, it's amazing. An equivalent would be SourceBottle. I'm actually registered with SourceBottle Australia for some weird reason.
Christine: SourceBottle. Like a 'Source' and then 'Bottle.'
Christine: And a, or 'source bottle'...
Kendra: Thank you
Christine: And, yeah, I like it because they have international pitches. It's and it's a smaller pool basically than the HARO one, which is for all of the US and so forth. So that's an insider tip.
Kendra: That's awesome. And it's funny because you actually told me about HARO and I've been subscribed to it for like a year. I have yet to use it, but I'm, it comes to me like three times a day and I'm always looking at it and one day I'm actually going to go through and pitch something, and hopefully today you've been helped me a little bit, and teach me a little bit how I should be pitching these people. But before we get started I just, I'd love to know how you started getting featured, because I know you've been on TV a few times. I think just the other day you were flown to Paris for something, so you're kind of a celebrity, so why don't you tell us a little bit how you got into this and how you started doing this sort of thing?
Christine: Yeah, so I think the very first time I was featured it was actually before I started my company. So there was a good coach at the time. He told me to do a launch, like an on location launch. So at the time I was 'sleep like a baby,' where I was a baby sleep consultant. And so what I did is I basically did a launch at a cafe. I send out a press release to people, to the media, and I also put it online at events.org online. And I had three reporters show up. So that was like right from the get go. I had some media coverage there. And it was an interesting topic. So I really had lots of people, not lots of people, with 'sleep like a baby,' which I ran for a year, I probably had five, six media features I would say, and somewhere local because through the launch they knew that I existed and then even if they didn't talk about the launch, they came and asked me for an article, an interview, a little bit later on. And I was very active on social media as well, and Luxembourg is smaller of course.
But start locally, I mean locally it's still coverage. It's good practice, especially at the beginning. And then when I shifted my business I knew that it would take me time to get clients, but I wanted to be more high end right from the gate. So I knew that the media would be a very quick way to get credentials, and I signed up for 'Selena Soo's Impacting Millions.' And through that course I learned where to look for media exposure. So HARO was a big one, and it took me around three months. So during three months I pitched a lot. So every other day I would write a little pitch. I would pitch podcasts, I would go through the group, the group had its insider network as well, so I leveraged that. And I did everything from smart, tiny, teeny tiny podcast to entrepreneur on fire, so it was really from everything. But within those three months I was featured in Bride's Magazine, Reader's digest, Huffington Post, and at the time, Huffington Post still took contributes, so I became a contributor there, Elite daily. So those were quite big ones. And then also, I just got a magazine and I would look in the back of the magazine and see who the editor was and I would literally just write an email to the editor and ask if I could contribute. So that's how I got published in a Belgium magazine, a print magazine, pretty high end and that's, you know, I just went for it. Like I went crazy over those three months, I pitched pretty much everywhere.
Christine: So that happened pretty quickly. And then after those three months, because I had a lot of backlinks, my site rank pretty high, and when journalists and so forth would Google, sleep expert adults, I think my site is number one or two. And because I already had those media credentials, they would trust that I was a good source, and then they would come to me. So that's how I got the other kind of media credentials. And just last week, as kind of said, last week I was in New York Post on Monday, I was in the Independent on Friday, was interviewed by a Luxembourgish national TV also on Friday, and then on Saturday I was brought into Paris to be on a French TV station.
Christine: So now everything is just happening organically. What helped me a lot though, first of all is to know how to pitch and I'm going to tell you exactly how I do that, but I do have a collaboration with a mattress company. So I'm a freelance expert for them and they have an amazing PR team, like huge. And their PR team is actually working with another PR company that is one of the biggest worldwide, who are representing the William sister in tennis, UNICEF and so forth. So their reach is amazing. So as their sleep expert, I managed to piggyback on that because, when they have a campaign, they use me in that quotes, I go over their reports, I consult on them, and if a reporter has a question, they basically link him to me. So I talked to the press, and that is fantastic because I get the visibility, they have their expert, but I don't have to do anything. So it's thanks to them that I got the TV appearance in Paris for example. So these things happen, once you get to your credibility markers, the more you get the better.
And I find obviously you need to know what you're doing. Obviously you need to have knowledge, you need to be interesting, hard working, but then it's pretty quick. Right? So the way that your pitch is, it's different. It depends from different outlets. So some outlets will want to have the complete story. Something like mindbodygreenfor example, they want to have the complete story with images, and it doesn't mean that you get published. Like I think I pitched three times, never got published, and then a friend of mine asked me for a quote, so I did that, and there we go. But I never actually had an article published their, an article of mine, and I was just like, after three times I was just like, 'God, I can't be bothered.' And I don't need it.
Kendra: [inaudible] you have to work to have to write everything upfront [inaudible]
Christine: Yeah. You can repurpose it, but I was just like, 'ah.'
Kendra: Yeah. And what about the types of like media outlets that people can be pitching? So obviously like there's like local TV, there's local radio, there's websites like mindbodygreen and like Reader's digest...
Christine: So pretty much everything, pretty much everything, you can always pitch. Sometimes if you go to the site, and go and do your research, and very often you can go and google the site contributor or the site and pitch. They will tell you if they're open to it. Something like Forbes or Entrepreneur, they won't or Inc Magazine, because they have their contributors. Now to become a contributor, you either have to be invited or to be referenced or you can actually talk to a contributor of theirs and see if you can pitch them. So you wouldn't pitch the main mother ship, so to say, but you would pitch contributors. That's how I got into Forbes, for example.
Christine: Now, if you can pitch, read their guidelines, if they just want some ideas than just give them some ideas, and the way that you do that is you literally, everything has to be above the fold. What that means is that, when they click on your email in their inbox, every, the most important stuff needs to be visible straightaway. They cannot scroll down. If they have to scroll down, it's, you lost, so get to the point. They don't have a lot of time. Basically you say, 'Hi.'Sometimes you can do a little, throw a little compliment in there. Say, you know, 'I've seen your story on da da da... I thought it was amazing. I am...'your pitch line, throw something impressive in there, and then, 'here are some ideas that I think your audience would relate to you.'So do your research and look at what their audience basically needs, right. So it is different from outlet to [inaudible]. Also look at the voice that they use, are they casual, are they very more academic. Depends, you know, really take a look at that. And then in general, I usually pitch three to five ideas with bullets. One, two, three, four, five. And then I add my author bio, biography, biography, but I add that at the bottom, you know, or I say, 'I have been featured in...'the main outlets that I've been featured in and, and then I just tell, 'I'm looking forward to hearing from you. Let me know if you need anything different or if there's anything different that you're looking for, just let me know, I'm flexible.'Because that way you leave the door open for them to communicate. So it needs to be to the point, it needs to be super sharp, and never, ever, ever add a word document. They will shoot you. It's taking up time. It slows down their mailbox, so don't do that. Don't, don't do that. Everything needs to be in that email. Very concise and very precise.
Kendra: I love what you said there about like they, they, they shouldn't have to scroll, because it's kind of similar for like an opt-in page, right?
Christine: Yes, exactly.
Kendra: Like if you're sending people to [inaudible] lead magnet, like you need that opt-in and the main things that are going to make someone want to subscribe to your email list and get that freebie.
Christine: Yes, yeah.
Kendra: And it's like you don't want them to have to scroll. So it's kind of like a similar thing. Like it should be to the point, upfront, and the other thing you said there that I love was like, you need to make it about them, right?
Kendra: Like you don't want to talk about you.
Kendra: You want to see like say hey, like this is how I can help you out. This is how I can appeal to your audience.
Kendra: Your audience may love this, and obviously do your research. So [inaudible].
Christine: Yes, because you want to make their lives easier and sometimes it's speed. How I found that it speed, the quicker you are, the better. So sometimes I would just get the email, I would pitch straight away, I wouldn't think about it. If you have someone who's super prepared, then get going do a word document or Google doc where you have 20 topics or so, from different categories that you could find interesting so that you can just copy, paste those very quickly, here on my ideas, Bam, and send it off. Sometimes I wouldn't even write. Sometimes I would literally do a voice memo and send them a voice memo. So.
Christine: And sometimes you know, when you give me an answer, can you give me some ideas? I would say, 'Hey, I'm just doing a voice memo for you,'and that works. And that's how I worked with a lot of reporters actually, because they are on a tight deadline, I can't be bothered to write. So very often when I have someone now pitching me, I would say, is it okay if I just do a voice memo for you? And there like, 'Yeah sure,'because they don't mind, you know.
Kendra: Right, it's quick.
Christine: So it's easier for them because they can actually edit it the way that they want to. It's easier. They hear it once, then they would write it down. It's easier than if they have to go through text and edit it. So I wouldn't do it maybe for the first time, but once you've got a couple under your belt, that's the quickest way to do it and they actually like it.
Christine: So that's another tip.
Kendra: And what about, what should people have in place maybe before they're pitching? Like do they need. They obviously need to have figured out like their niche. They need to kind of maybe have established themselves as an authority or an expert in their niche. [inaudible]
Christine: You don't have to. Like I literally had a really crappy website at the time, I hadn't had, had probably one client and then I got, one client was actually my second or first client was actually a journalist that I had collaborated with.
Kendra: Oh wow, awesome.
Christine: Because she wanted to be a case study so I was like, I can offer you a special discount, and you can write about and now you can have, you see a whole article about me in Refinery 29 where we worked together. That was fair at the very, very beginning, which is a little bit annoying because now I would work completely different, but it's still, I'm grateful. But you don't need anything.
Kendra: Ok, that's good to know.
Christine: Like I don't need anything. I didn't have anything under my belt and you know, if you have someone who's like a little bit wary of that, then it's going to be fine at a later date. Don't take it personal. But as I said, like Entrepreneur on Fire, I was there really early, like very, very, very early in my career. So now I would do things differently. I'm actually thinking of writing another email to John Lee Dumas and say, 'Look, can we do a 2.0, it's going to be better this time.'So, but you don't need anything.
Christine: Like you truly really need balls, I mean just need to go for it.
Kendra: And so do you think like as someone who maybe is in the earlier stages of their business, like do you think this is a good strategy or a good thing to put your energy behind in terms of like generating more income and getting more clients and getting to the bottom line?
Christine: Yeah. For sure. Absolutely. It is incredibly, it's an incredibly, how should I say? Credibility Marker. It's not a lot of work. Like having to hustle to get clients is a lot of work and you would still be doing that. Like it's not going to take that much time actually, but anyone who wants to work with you is going to check out your website and if you have those logos on there, it just immediately establishes you as an authority. You will be able to raise your prices accordingly. You'll have an edge on all the others and I think it's a brilliant investment of time. it's giving you a lot more practice as well because you know, you will want to be an expert at some time. I mean not everyone wants to. But I think most of our listeners are probably like, we are so ambitious and we really want to get to the top and I consider myself being there now, but the media is huge for me and, it's, it's part of my strategy, what I wanted to do. If you're obviously super mortified of being visible than it might not be your kind of thing. Which is fine, you would do it differently. But for me, I was going to be international online, so the media is helping me a lot with that. But if you want to be more local than you probably won't need to do that. I think it depends on what you want. But if you want to have the big international career, it's, I think it's non-negotiable. I think you really have to do it.
Kendra: Well, I feel like there's so many levels that you can do this at. Like, you know, when I first started out, I started my business by running local workshops. I live in a really small town, but I knew that that was probably the quickest and easiest way to get clients. And I would go to, every time I had a workshop, I'd set up an interview with the local radio, and they go in and they interview me on that topic that was really, you know, minor local. I live in a town of 10,000, but like that help get more people into my workshops and the people would be like I listened to you on the radio.
Kendra: You know, like local radios are always looking for content, and they were happy to have me on. And then everyone else thought, 'oh wow, I can't believe the radio have you on.'But really it was not,
Christine: I know.
Kendra: Looked like it was.
Christine: Exactly. And that's a little tip to, local media in the summer is like so easy. They have nothing to report about. You know, politics is, everyone is on holiday, there's nothing happening. So if you want to get some media coverage, especially local TV or radio, summer time is amazing. And it doesn't matter how many people see you in the end, you know, if you just want the credibility marker, because not every media visibility is going to get your client's at all. Like I had huge outlets feature me and I wouldn't get a client from that. So that's not how it works. Yes, you can have the opt-in in there sometimes, but I find that it's more people who check you out and then they're like, whoa. Impressed. Rather than people finding you through an article, you know, most of the time, not always. Sometimes...
Kendra: And I wonder, I wonder if that gives you more credibility because I know like, people don't care as much about the education anymore. Like they don't go, 'I've gone to this school, this school, this school,'people like, 'I've been featured in this, this, this and this.'And I love that. Like as featured in little thing on your website. I have it on my website too, like all the little things, and I have not been featured in a lot of things, like a little bit here and there. But every small thing I've been featured in, even if it was tiny, I put it in that little image, right?
Christine: Yeah. Mine don't fit on there anymore. Like I literally have a separate media page. I find, yeah, it's not like you have to have a medicine degree from Harvard anymore. Like, people want to know that you know your shit basically, right? And when you have been picked up by journalists to be their experts, it does give you a certain authority I would say. So I feel very at ease with it. I think everyone has to choose for themselves, but I would definitely recommend it. It's definitely my jam. I love it. I love being on TV. It's my thing. I love speaking. I love, you know, that's what I'm going to build my career on next year. But it depends obviously, but you can just do it in writing too. I think it's, it's pretty fantastic way of getting to a different level.
Kendra: Yeah. And there's like, there's the, there's like you can get on articles, online articles, there's the TV, there's podcasts, right? Like pitching to podcasts, like this is a similar thing, right? Like podcasts are a really great way to find a new audience that would not have otherwise have found you. Right?
Christine: I love podcasts, and podcasts are a different animals because people who subscribe to podcasts, are fans, like they're really fans, it's much more intense than a book, blog, or newspaper. So pitches to blogs, to podcast, should be a little bit more in depth than they are for written press, for example. Podcasters who lead the own pitches. They love to be flattered. So listen to a couple of episodes that they had in the past and quote from that or say I loved your episode with Xyz, you know, that really resonated with me or, and I've done this to all of them, right? I take the two, three, I literally skipped to the middle and take stuff out. It's like in school, you know, and you didn't read the book and then there's the part where you read and you're like, ha [inaudible]. Not that I ever did that, obviously, but...
Kendra: Of course not.
Christine: Yeah. So flattery is always great. Know what they talk about really, know their structure. They are so different, like some are super, super structured, so are just go with the flow, which I prefer.
Kendra: We're kind of more go with the flow.
Christine: Yeah, definitely. I get really nervous if there's a structure in there, and sometimes I don't prepare enough, but sometimes questions just catch me like the last podcast I was on, they ask what is the best, what was the best day of your life? You're not allowed to say the day your child was born or when you were married. And I was like, 'fuck,'no idea. I was like, 'Shit, Shit. I don't know.'I couldn't get up. I really couldn't find anything. He was like, 'well I can help you. It might be today.'And I was like, 'ah,'very close call. So keep that. When somebody else you that question to say today.
Kendra: That's a good. That's good. And you know what I love about podcast too is like they kind of evergreen, right? Like people listen to the podcast.
Christine: Yes... [inaudible]
Kendra: [inaudible] when I subscribe to a new podcast I go back to the beginning, and I started at the beginning and work my way up.
Christine: Exactly. And they will find you years later, make sure that your opt-in page is branded to them. So when I was on 'being boss,' my update was sleeplikeaboss/beingboss. My opt-in has changed since then. Right. So it's completely different when people go there now from what it used to be, but make sure that links stays.
Christine: I actually forgot to do one for Entrepreneur on Fire, but pretty much every guest does one website forward slash fire. So I did that and I still get opt-ins from that years later, years later, two years later. Right. But the funnel never stops. Just make sure that you do a personalized link. Ideally you should do the personalized page. So say, 'hi listeners from podcast ABC or podcast XYZ,'whatever it is. I don't always do it, it's just I should, I could tell my assistant now to do it actually.
Kendra: You do that.
Christine: But yeah, but podcasts are amazing. People hear you, they trust you a lot quicker. And also videos with experts, do it. Even if it's tiny.
Christine: Like for me doing one free video and getting one client that pays like a lot.
Kendra: Yeah, it's, it's huge. And I love, I love this. And so let's just, let's just summarize like the sort of like pitching format, in that evening just so we make sure that everyone's got it. So you want to, [inaudible]
Christine: [inaudible] Yeah. So you start with the name of the person, spell it correctly, figuring out if it's a he or she. There's nothing that pisses me off more when I have people pitching me to be on my blog or something where all my podcast when it's like, dear Mr. Christine or Dear Mr. Hanson, right? Just like fuck off. Sorry. [inaudible] I'm like, fuck off.
Kendra: You're just on fire today. Let's just drop an F bombs and S bombs.
Christine: It's driving me crazy. So make sure you do research to know that. So, greeting, then do your one elevator pitch line and just tell them I think I have Xyz for your audience. That would be really helpful for your audience. If it's podcast include flattery. If it's not a podcast, don't include flattery.
Kendra: Just get to the point.
Christine: And then depending on what the format is, go with clear bullet points. Have catchy headlines. You need to work on that. That takes time. So really catchy headlines. Usually with a how to, three things, you will find tons of that if you google. Have three to five bullet points, sometimes they will tell you how many they want and then tell them that you're open to changes. 'If you need anything else, let me know.'Sign off, and then after your signature, your bio, your author bio, they usually won't include it but still do it. And then if you want to you can also just before sign off say, 'Also I've been featured in da da da. Here are two articles of mine,'that they can click on, so that they can see that you're legit.
Christine: So that would be the line out that I would use, except if they ask for the complete article in advance, then obviously you would do that. But I don't know many who do that. I really literally, I think it's only mindbodygreen so far that I've encountered that once the whole story or the others just want some ideas. Okay. And so if you're, if, if somebody is new and they haven't been featured anywhere, would they just maybe send to...
Christine: Don't say anything.
Christine: Don't say anything.
Christine: No, don't do anything. Don't, just don't mention it.
Kendra: Okay, cool. And I would love to know, like, like what do you think is the biggest mistake people make when pitching? Like what's the big no, no, that you should never do that people do all the time.
Christine: Super easy. Too Long. Your email is too long.
Kendra: Too long.
Christine: Don't go like, 'hi, at my work La La La La La. I work with Blah Blah Blah. I have helped... I've been educated Dah Dah Dah Dah Dah. It is my passion to neh neh neh neh neh, I've read Wirey, I really think that I could have because da da da.'So you have like three paragraphs and then the ideas aren't clearly laid out. Nobody's going to read it. Like literally no one’s going to read it. So it needs to be short, to point, above the fold.
Kendra: Cool. Above the fold. To the point. Not too long. Don't go on and on. Okay, got it.
Kendra: And what advice would you give to someone who really wants to be featured on TV say, but they're just really nervous about it? Like how, like what advice would you give to them?
Christine: I would tell them to practice on Facebook lives first,
Kendra: Yeah. [inaudible]
Christine: Like trying to do your own Facebook lives. Try to get into groups of other people. There's lots of collaborations in the online world right now where people have each other on guests. Try to be an online summits, that is very similar to actually being interviewed on TV.
Christine: And then when you're ready, then just have a go and go to a small station first. Like I'm a local, small independent channels. You actually also have some TV channels online that are only online. Go with that first so that you know what is, you know, waiting for you and TV is fast, like you're in the in and out.
Christine: It's so quick. It's like super dizzylusionary, unless you are with Alan where you get like half an hour air time, but working on it. It's just like, Blam, it's very quick.
Kendra: Yeah. You have a very short amount of time to get to your point, hey?
Christine: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kendra: Cool. Awesome. Anything else you want to tell our listeners about media and getting featured?
Christine: If you can collaborate with a team, with a company that has great PR team, do it. Like, I think that has been something that's was very surprising to me. I love the company obviously because I also love them, the people that work there and they're really dear to me, because we had an event where I was five days staying at a hotel with them during a campaign, so I really got to know them. They're adorable. So make sure that it fits, that it's a good match and because we get along so well, they asked me over and over again and yes, I do have to sign an exclusivity contract with them for certain amount of time. So be aware of that. Whether it's worth it for me, I know that with them it's worth it, and it's always like six months or just as long as the campaign is going on.
Christine: But yeah, I find if you can collaborate with a brand like that, especially if they are having campaigns, and you show a little bit of initiative, it's a win. It's like they will help you, they will do the work for you in a way, and then you can help them and get the exposure. So it's, it's fantastic. Like that was what I underestimated by far. So it's was a beautiful surprise. And you get paid. Don't forget, you don't get paid for the rest of that, like nothing pays. So. But for that you get paid.
Kendra: And you know, I actually think you got me featured in, was it Forbes or the Guardian? Like you had one article where you had a bunch of different experts put in their two cents.
Christine: Oh yeah. In Huffington Post.
Kendra: Huffington Post. I was like awesome. And then I don't think they accept contributors anymore. So now that's on my featured in page, because I, I was in there.
Christine: You were in there. Our Podcast is in Forbes dude.
Kendra: Oh awesome. I had no idea.
Christine: I know we have to put it on our website actually. I just thought [inaudible]
Kendra: We got to get on top of that.
Christine: 360healthbiz podcast is in Forbes magazine with a link, which is pretty cool.
Kendra: That is pretty cool. Oh my God. That's so exciting. I love it. Okay. So guys, if you liked this episode, leave us a five-star review on iTunes or wherever you can leave us a review because we need to know like do you like this? Is this episode sweet? Are you into it? Do you want us to do more episodes like this? We need to hear from you and just helping us if you know, spread our message, help more health coaches, grow their business, transform their clients, it means we're going to help more people. Very important. And so in order for us to get out there, you need to let iTunes know that you like us.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you so much guys. Let me know if you have any questions. You can obviously always email me through the contact page if you want to have any other information like I'd love to share.
Kendra: Awesome. Well thanks Christine. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. I have been taking notes. I learned a lot and maybe in the next couple of weeks I'm actually going to pitch something from HARO. Those emails that have been coming to me for like over a year that I haven't used it yet.
Christine: Yes. I'm ignoring them at the moment, but I will get back into it when I have time.
Kendra: Yeah, great tool. All right, thanks Christine. Thanks everyone.
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Christine: Hey everyone, welcome to the 360healthbiz podcast. We're so excited to have you. This is Kendra Perry and myself, Christine.
Christine: And we're super excited to have you for this episode, we're going to talk about launches and Kendra just had a [inaudible] launch so she's going to basically have some [inaudible] talk. I don't know. She's going to spill all the secrets to you, but before we do, don't forget that if you're like our content than do support us on Patreon. You can just go to our website and you find a big red button where you can do that. And to kick off this episode, we're going to talk about the tool of the week and today we're going to talk about Voxer. So Voxer is an app that you can download and it's like a walkie talkie app, so it's designed to mainly leave voice memos instead of texting, basically. You can still text, you can send images, you can send gifts, you can send files, but it has this big walkie talkie button in the middle and it's just faster communication. I really like thinking and speaking. It's great when you have a VA just to shoot them a message, you don't have to do, forward an email or anything like that. Kendra and I use it a lot and it's just really quick. I really like it. It's free. So even with coaching clients to have just a quick check-up, I think it's, it's really, really great tool. So we highly recommend that to use in your business or you know, either with your clients or with your team and I think that's it, right?
Kendra: Yeah. And just if you guys like our stuff and you want more of it, just leave us a five star review on iTunes or wherever.
Kendra: Listen to your podcast because you don't leave us a review, we have no idea if you actually like what we're doing. So you got to tell us, tell us that you like us,
Christine: We don't know if you're listening, dudes, dudets, let us know. We need some love.
Kendra: We do need some love.
Christine: So yeah. So we're going to do dive into Kendra's launch. Before we do like a case study of her launch, we're actually gonna talk a little bit about what a launch is, why you should do it, when you should do it, when you shouldn't do it, and the different pieces that belong to it. So, definition of launch would basically be that you have a certain timeline to the release of a product, maybe coarse or group program. And then you basically create some hype. You create some energy around it and then you launch it. So basically you open your sales cart for a certain amount of time and then you close it. So it's something that's not necessarily available all year long, but we can talk about evergreen launches as well. But we're going to just talk about the general concept for now. So let's talk a little bit about what kind of programs are especially well for launches. And then we're going to walk you through ideas of how you can do so. So Kendra, you mainly launching programs, right? No, yeah.
Kendra: I just launched a membership, but you can launch like as health professionals, like maybe you're going to launch a group program, maybe you're going to launch like some one on one program, private coaching thing that you put together. I just launched a membership, but you can also launch physical products like maybe you have some sort of physical product that is kind of wrapped up in your business. But basically, yeah, just like what you just said, Christine, you are basically releasing something to your people, to either your warm or cold audience, hoping that they're going to buy it and it's obviously important to do this because it doesn't really work to just like put something out there on your website and hope that people will buy or find it.
Christine: No that's not going to happen.
Kendra: Get an odd sale. But unless you have a really massive following, you kind of have to go through this whole like procedure like pre-launch, launch, and post-launch. And actually put some effort into it. Otherwise people probably aren't going to buy it. People need a little bit of a pressure to buy it.
Christine: Yep, I agree. And you can do a launch like once a year, once a month, once, I dunno, once a quarter and you can do evergreen launches. So I find most people launch courses or group programs. So like every three months or so they wouldn't launch a new program. And so let's go a little bit through the funnel and I think you already talked a little bit about that. You cannot just say, okay, tomorrow I'm going to launch. Like you need to make full aware of who you are. You need to have a strategy in place of how you make people aware and then slowly ease them into the idea that they need this product.
Christine: And we really call that seeding. So you really plant and seed in their head, and then when you start launching, when you become obvious and like, 'Oh, I needed that anyway.' So that's the ideal psychology, so it's psychology behind this. So to give you some examples, of courses, I have a 'sleep like a boss' master class course for example, but it could also be a course on hormones, course on heavy metals, it could be a course on dieting, it could be a membership site like Kendra says where you can update things monthly. So in the health sector, I think that those are like very things that you very often see. Meal plans, all kinds of stuff.
Kendra: Yeah. We can go way back, I want to go, like, what do you do before you even create a product, because...
Christine: Oh yeah, go ahead.
Kendra: You know, like there's no point in creating something if people don't want it. So you really got to know your people, and I think this is the biggest reason why I had, I was able to generate quite a bit of like gross income in a pretty short amount of time because I actually asked people what they wanted. So I had this idea in my head, I was like, 'Okay, I need to work with less one on one clients. I need to, I want to make a group program, but I know that people want labs from me, like I'm a functional nutritionist, like they want to run labs, so how do I put this into a group program?' And I was like, I don't know if people would actually be into this, if they would be interested in running labs and getting a protocol but not getting the one on one support. So I put out a survey and I bribed people with a contest. Like I gave away a free hair mineral analysis and consult, because you got to bribe people. People don't like no one even wants it to be two minutes out of their day to do something unless there's something in it for them.
Kendra: You got to bribe them. I recommend doing a contest. That's typically what I do when I survey people. But I asked them, I was like, 'Hey, like this is what I'm thinking of doing. Would you be into this?' And originally I thought I would be doing like a fixed group program, like something that goes for like three to six months. They get like a set number of things and it has a start and an end day and it's like a, you know, a bit of a higher ticket group program item. But what I learned from the survey, well first of all I learned that everyone wanted to, like everyone was into the group program idea, but what I learned is that people wanted to pay a lower price point and pay monthly. So that's where the membership idea was, was basically birthed from. Because I was like, 'Oh, like people would be more into paying a lower price and just paying month by month,' and it kind of made a bit more sense to me in a way because, you know, with health and running labs with people and with people who have a lot of health issues, like you can't really put a fixed amount of time on when they're going to get results, right? For some people it's going to take years. Other people it might take a few months. So, I think it's really important like before you spend all this time and money creating something, like, you need to ask your people like, do they actually want it, and if you don't have a following yet, I think you got to do some market research, right? You got to look at...
Kendra: Other people who are in similar niches. You, what are they doing, you know, and, and try to come up with like, you know, is this something that people are actually going to want to buy from you?
Christine: Absolutely. And the way you can do the research is either you asked, like if you have an idea, you just ask about that idea. Otherwise you could also go. And what I like to do is to go on Amazon, and to take a look at books that exist and you take a look at all the books and then you look at what is missing. So a great way of doing that is actually to read the reviews of the book and the negative ones. So where the people are complaining about what is missing, that's golden because it tells you exactly the kind of fodder that you need to feed people. Right? So that's a good one that you can do, stalking questions on the topic. Go to Reddit. Reddit is super weird, but it does a lot of communication there. So if you find the right thread, it's absolutely golden. Quora is great to look at questions that people asked, really to see what is popular, what is the need, what is asked again and again and again. And sometimes it doesn't even need to be a completely new product. It can actually be something that already exists, but you just put your twist to it. You just refine it. You can add something that makes it a little bit more special or it's just the way that you deliver it, you know? So there's different ways that you can do this, but that research would be, first of all, your own tribe. So your Facebook following, your email list, and then go for Amazon, go for Reddit, Cora, Google as such, you know, and then that will help you to actually define what you need to do and how to create it. And I know people who launch their courses or their membership sites and they're not, they don't have anything on there yet. Right? But they only have thing already. They launch it, they pre-sell it for a special rate and then you know, you know that you're golden. If nobody responds, then if they don't even respond to that, they're not going to buy.
Kendra: Yep, then you have wasted time.
Christine: They're not going to buy it. And we're going to talk Price Point's a little bit later as well. But yeah, doing your research. Actually creating something that is needed is definitely step one.
Kendra: Definitely step one. Yeah, and I mean, I love what you said about preselling sense exactly what I did. I had part of it built, but I did most of the building when the cart opened and when the cart closed. I had a 10 day cart open period and then there was about five days and then the doors opened and people got let in.
Kendra: And then, so yeah, I felt like I got paid to make it.
Christine: Exactly, and the survey is already kind of part of your pre-launch. So it's really kind of warming people up to the idea, and then you can use different strategies. I know that a lot of people use video, and the way I know that Bushra Azhar is having a great course called 'Sold Out Launch' where she breaks this down, but basically it's about first getting people to know you personally as well. You know, doing videos about you, posting pictures that don't just show you as the expert, but that show you as a human being first so that people start to like you. Then you can show your expertise in the second step. Then you can show how you connect to the topic that you're going to sell. And each of those is around a week, two weeks. And you can use social media posts, you can use quotes, you can use videos, you can use voice memos, you can use blocks, whatever you want to do, but it should be a certain amount of time, you know. You can pull it off in two weeks, but they need to already have a following. If you need to build your following, obviously I would find one to two months maybe even. And just run video like crazy, run video ads like crazy, right?
Kendra: Build up that following.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. So kind of on what exactly did you do? So we have a little bit of an inside.
Kendra: So after I realized that people wanted it, I was like super stoked obviously because, I was like, yes, this is great. And then I just started to build up hype about it. I started to kind of tease about it. I, you know, I told people like, 'Hey, you told me that you wanted this, so I'm going to be creating this and I'm really excited about it.' And I shared that all over my social media, my Instagram, my Instagram Stories, my Facebook. I've let people know in email. I kept telling them like in every email I sent out, like I'd have a ps. 'Ps: This is coming. I'm really excited about it. I'm building it right now. Stay tuned. This is probably when it's gonna happen,' and I just kept kind of throwing it in there, and it was really cool, because I had a lot of people be like, 'Hey, like I'm really excited for this or like I'm just hanging out waiting for this group program.' Like, you know, you getting excited about it. And I was like okay, this is a good thing. So I think it's important to, you know, and all my Instagram stories I would go through and show the membership I was building and show the sales page I was making [inaudible].
Christine: Yeah, making all is amazing. Like doing, making of photos, making of videos is kind of working really well.
Kendra: Yeah, that's sort of behind the scenes. Like I was kind of like letting people in and, and yeah, people were excited about it. So that was really good. And then, you know, before you kind of get to your launch, you know, you have to do a lot of planning in advance obviously like, and it's crazy like I've launched probably like five or six times and every time I launch I'm like, 'Oh yeah, like this is a lot of work.' Like I always...
Christine: It is.
Kendra: how many little things you forget about that you have to think about, but you know. Some questions you should ask yourself is like, you know, first of all, if you haven't, if you're doing a group program, a membership, like how are you going to host it? Right? Like where is that program going to live? I use ClickFunnels. There's lots of other, like if you're doing a membership site, I know there's Thinkific, there is Teachable.
Christine: Yeah, Teachable, Invanto is [inaudible].
Kendra: [inaudible] WordPress.
Christine: Yeah, if you get onto our free tool kit, we are actually talking about some of them in the free toolkit that you get on our website. So just go there and download it and we have all of them in there. But yeah, you can also just get a WordPress plugin, s2member is one Memberia is a very popular one. I've never worked with it, but yeah.
Kendra: What was the first one you said? There was Memberia and what was the other one you said?
Kendra: Okay. I'm just writing this all down so we can put it in the show notes. Yes. Yeah. So you think about like that sort of thing and then you've got to think about like what support are you gonna have, are you going to have support? Like are you going to have a Facebook group? And I recommend if you're going to do the community thing, do a Facebook group. Don't try to go with some other forum plugin. It's not the same. You will get engagement. It won't work. I've been in, I've worked for organizations where they've tried to do a non-Facebook plugin and it sucked. So, you know, Facebook is already there. People already have Facebook. It's on their phone. People are already on Facebook. If you want to develop a community and you want to have that sort of community support, then definitely go with Facebook. The other thing you need to think about is building your sales page. So you're going to need to build something to send people so that they can purchase. I also do this with ClickFunnels, but you can do Leadpages, you can do Ontraport, you can do all kinds of places basically to hold hostess sales page, but this is basically where you want to go through and you want to tell people about the program, tell people what it is and tell, tell them about the benefits and what they're actually going to get from being in the program. So you want to know how you're going to build your sales page.
You also want to know how you're going to collect payment. You know, are you going to do this through like I can connect ClickFunnels to Stripe. I also for this program because it was a membership and I wanted to give people the, be able to cancel their membership on their own. So I actually did it through MoonClerk, which allows people to sign up for subscriptions. It integrates with Stripe and then you can, people can cancel whenever they want. And you want to think about like what discounts are you going to offer during your open cart because, you know, especially with a new program launch, it's kind of, you want to think of it as a Beta launch, like it's kind of like a test launch. So what type of discounts are you actually going to? Hello, Christine?
Kendra: Christine's actually went offline for a second but she's back. You want to think about, you know, like what is the incentive to sign up during this open cart period. And I think offering some sort of discounts, discounts talk, money talks. So you know, for the first launch of a program you want to offer some sort of founding member discount or some sort of data discount to kind of encourage people to sign up because if they don't get in during that open cart, they're going to have to pay more or maybe it's not going to be an option for them.
Christine: Exactly. So you're talking discounts or bonuses.
Kendra: Yeah, discounts. I'm just talking about just the things to think about before you launch. So how you're going to host your program, how are you going to collect payment, building your sales page, you know, what discounts you're going to offer.
Kendra: I would recommend as, because we're health professionals, like you need a contract if you're, if it's a health program of course, develop a contract for the program and make the rules very clear. So for me...
Christine: [inaudible] people.
Kendra: Oh, totally. And you, you need to put those boundaries forward because if people don't know the boundaries, they're going to take you for everything you've got. So like, what's your refund policy? Like do you give refunds? You know, do you have like a 30 day refund policy? Do you not give refunds. [inaudible]
Christine: Yeah, and here's a tip. Here's a very quick tip about refunds. They work a lot better the longer you have the refund period. So if you have 100 day money back guarantee, you would will have less people who are going to take advantage of it than if you say 30 days. Because it's like if you get something and you know, you only have 30 days to get it, to bring it back, you would focus on everything that's negative. If it's longer time you would just relax, you will use the thing, because you say, 'Oh, I even have a year to give it back, you know, I don't worry.' So you will just get used to it and then you can't be bothered or something happened where you know it's your mistake and, you know, that, you know, the money back guarantee wouldn't be there. So I'm actually recommending to use a money back guarantee that's longer. You're going to have much less hassle than just a 14 or 30 day money back guarantee.
Kendra: That's good advice. I think in the past I used the 30 day money back, but that tends to [inaudible].
Christine: I think I'm only going to do a 100 or even a year from now on.
Kendra: Yeah. And I mean for, for what I did, because I was, you know, offering a low price membership. Like I just don't give refunds. You just cancel, you know, you know, I offered it for super, super cheap, like I'm sorry but I'm not giving you $35 back. Like you can just cancel.
Kendra: And, you know, you'll get access for the rest of the month. So I made that very clear and you should also make it clear about, like, you know, obviously all the legal stuff should be in there. Like, basically when people purchase, is send them directly to a contract and they sign the contract and then you know, from at that point they can get let in. So you want to think about these things all in advanced and really make sure to have that contract dialed in, because if it's not in the contract and somebody wants something, you kinda just have to give it to them, because if they haven't signed against it then you kind of just have to roll with what they're saying. So just, you know, be very clear in your contract.
Kendra: And then...
Christine: Sound advice.
Kendra: You want to determine your open cart period. Right. So I know like with your, you did a launch not too long ago, like how long did you have your cart open for Christine?
Christine: Well that's the thing. I did my launch but I didn't ever close the cart. So I didn't do, I just launched it to let people know that it's available. I never closed the cart. So it's an evergreen open one. I don't promote it anymore, it just lives on my website and I like strategically, I use it to motivate people actually to buy my higher ticket program.
Kendra: That's great.
Christine: So it's a product that's, you know, a thousand bucks. Whereas working with me is a lot more. So when I talk to people and then tell them my pricing, I always tell them, well you could also do the DIY, which is just a 1000 and then it's so much faster that they like, 'Oh no, it can't be worth anything.' And then they pick the high, higher ticket. So it's just psychology.
Kendra: So you use position.
Christine: Yeah. So that's just the psychology I use. But when I launched it, fascinating fact, I lunched it for $47 and I had trouble selling it. When I sold it for a $1000 it went off like hotcakes. So it's weird. It's really weird. Weird people are weird. But I had my pre-launch for around two weeks. I had a special early bird offer for 10 days I believe, and then I switched to regular pricing. So my launch. So my cart open for early bird was two weeks. And it was, the price will slower and it also had a bonus call with me for people who registered during that time.
Kendra: Ooh, I love that. Yeah, that's, that's good stuff. That's what we should talk about that because yeah, like I, I mean definitely like if you're doing a launch experiment with a shorter and longer open-cart, like I've definitely seen better success with a longer open-cart because of, I don't know, I feel like health stuff is so personal. People do need a bit of time to kind of mull it over in their head and decide if you're the right person for you. So I did a 10 day open cart period but I gave people incentives to buy quickly. So I offered a fast acting bonus. So if they signed up within the first 72 hours they got a really big discount on one of the hair mineral analysis tests that I run. And that's really when the majority of people signed up, was in those first three days because there was incentive to do it. So I think it's really important if you're going to have a two week or 10 day open cart, you still want to give people incentive to sign up quickly and then you want to give them another last minute bonus. This worked really well for me, where you kind of want to push people over the edge and you're like, 'Hey, I'm going to throw in this, this and this.' Super sweeten the deal. And that will get people in at the end. And what was interesting is pretty much like 80% of people bought within the first three days. And then I had like crickets for a few days and this last three hours I had the last 20%. So people really need that.
Christine: That's what I find, launches to mid part of a launch is just going to be crickets. Whatever you do, you would have maybe one or two sales, but people are just going to be annoyed at you and they're just going to say, no, no, no. And then you throw in that kill the deal kind of thing for people who haven't bought yet. So make sure you segment your email list and then that is going to be the, you know, the jet slam dunk bonus, you know, with something that is just too good, that has nearly more value than the whole thing, that is just going to make it a no brainer to sign up.
Kendra: Yeah, exactly. And I ended up just giving it to everyone, because I was talking about it on social media. So all the people who signed up in the beginning were like, oh, can I get it too? And I, I mean I don't care. So I was like, yes, everyone is going to get it. Like, you know, I just didn't want to leave people. I remember I'm signing up for a program once and they did a, a last minute bonus and they, they only gave it to the last minute people. And I remember feeling [inaudible].
Christine: Yeah, and it's just like, come on, yeah.
Kendra: You know, I was like, I'm like, that makes me feel crappy. Because I signed up right away and I felt like I was losing out. So because of that, yeah.
Christine: So you either just do it via email and you actually really segment your lists so that the people who already bought on not going to get that email, which you should do anyway because once people buy, you should stop promoting via email to them. So just make sure that they get segmented and targeted target or email those people who haven't bought yet. So either you do it that way, but if you do it publicly like on social media, then obviously it's going to make early buyers feel terrible. So that's not a good idea.
Kendra: Yeah, and that's a good segue into the next thing you need to think about with launching is like the emails, right? Like how many emails are you going to send out? Like make sure to schedule them in advance. Like, you know, you're going. And how I find works really well is, the people who click on the sales page but don't purchase, they're going to get way more emails then the people who don't click, because I know the people who've gone to the sale page, they're interested, they're thinking about it, they're on the fence, so they need a little bit more encouragement. So those people got probably double the emails then the people who didn't click and I use...
Christine: But Kendra, how do you know who clicked?
Kendra: Well, you need a really good email, I use convert kit, so you need a good email provider. Mailchimp, I'm pretty sure you can't do this sort of thing through something like Mailchimp. So I recommend getting a good email provider. Like I think you use MailerLite, ConvertKit, you can do an active campaign. There's a lot of good ones out there but I can basically tag people who clicked the link and so when I send out the email I say only send it to the people who clicked the sales page or I can send it to everyone who has clicked the sales page but hasn't purchased. Right. Like I can tag the people who also purchased because like you said, you don't want to keep hounding people with marketing emails once they bought, like it doesn't, like that's going to annoy them and they don't understand why they're getting it. They're like, 'Hey, like I signed up. Like why am I receiving this?' So you just want to make sure you tag people appropriately and I get, I do recommend sending more emails so the people who've clicked but haven't purchased versus the people who maybe haven't opened your email or they've gone to the email but they never clicked because maybe they're just not interested, you know.
Christine: Exactly, and they’re not going to convert and there we have a really good topic actually. When you send out these emails, you're going to have shitloads of unsubscribes, right? It's just going to happen when people are going to be, 'Err she wants to try to sell me.' Well guess what, that's what we do. It's a business. So, they will never sign up with you as a client anyways. So for me that's a purge. It's a good riddance. I saw, I delete my unsubscribes religiously every two weeks. I actually deleted my unsubscribes so they're not, they don't exist in my sphere anymore, on my server or anywhere else, you know. So don't worry about it doesn't, it's not personal. It's literally, they have too much stuff going on and it's not a priority for them.
Christine: So don't worry about it, just be happy because they're creating space for new people who actually would be interested in working with you. So that's just a little side note because it can be rough, like, like suddenly...
Christine: you see unsubscribes like woooah, oh no, no, no, maybe I should stop. Don't stop. Like whatever you do, don't stop.
Kendra: Yeah. And I mean that's a really good point. I mean I think I had like 50 people unsubscribe during my launch period. I don't care. They're probably never going to buy for me anyways.
Kendra: They will go back on my list at some point. I unsubscribe and re-subscribe to people's lists all the time because maybe I know they have a product that I'm interested in so I subscribed, but then I still like them. I still really liked them, but my email box, my inbox is full of crap. So I just thought I'm going to unsubscribe for awhile and just like take a break and maybe I'll come back on when I'm interested again. Right. So some people do that.
Christine: Yeah, exactly. So don't take it personal. It's just an email list and I find, it can get tricky if you have a certain amount. Like if it's, if you have too many spam complaints, it might be tricky, but what you can do actually, you can do live chat or through email your email provider know that you're launching something. So you can actually send them an email and you can say, look, I'm going to send up more promotion emails over this period of time. I'm probably going to have more spam complaints and unsubscribes and usually they are very, very understanding because they know the game. Right, so.
Kendra: Exactly. Yeah. That's good advice. Yeah. And so yeah, with your emails, like I recommend like definitely I sent out a lot of emails within that fast acting bonus period and on the day that the bonus ended, I send it out like, I sent like three emails. Right. Just to keep reminding people, like this [inaudible] 3 hours left.
Christine: Yeah, 12 hours, 6 hours.
Kendra: Yes, you got to do that.
Christine: It's 12 hours, 6 hours, 1 hour, even five minutes and you would see if this going to be someone who's going to buy at the last minute and you have to have a countdown on your sales page people. There's no way around it. You need to have a countdown.
Kendra: Yeah. You do need a countdown on your sales page. You can actually, there's a plugin and I actually can't remember the name of it, but I'll figure it out, that you can actually add directly into your emails.
Christine: Yeah, it depends on some your email provider. I think MailerLite you can add one into your email list you added with the date. It doesn't say the hour, which isn't it a bit annoying. So MailerLite, if you're listening, please let me fill in the hour as well, not just the date, but it's also this one called, I want to say dead funnel, dead click funnel, dead funnel.
Kendra: Deadline funnel, which you can add to the landing page. And that basically, it works really well if you want each person to have their own countdown down.
Christine: So it's more for evergreen, right.
Kendra: Yeah, more for evergreen [inaudible].
Christine: You can also add it into emails. Yeah. And I think you can also add into emails. It's quite pricey though, so have a look. But if you [inaudible].
Kendra: But there is one for free, that you can add into email and I'm going to find out the name of it. And I've used it before. I can't remember the name of it, but I will, I'll add it to the show notes once I figured that out, but yeah. So lots of emails went out during that time and then I kind of like put it like one a day for like the middle of the launch. And then again, those last few days I pumped out a lot. I would say with emails like, it's really important that you're not just telling people to buy in the email like you, like all my emails are, like I tell a story, I tell a story about a client, I tell a story about myself. Like I, I, I tell people like why they should be buying. It's not just like, 'Hey, I got this thing, you should buy it.'It's like, 'Hey, like, you know, I spent over $30,000 on my health. I didn't find a solution. It was really frustrating. But then I found testing and I ran these tests on myself and now I'm so much healthier.' Like, you know, tell that personal story, share stories about your client’s success, and really think about like what is the benefit, like when you were listing all the things they get as a part of the program or membership or whatever. Don't just tell them about the thing. Like the benefit is not a Facebook group, because I mean, what does that mean to me. I'm like Facebook group, I don't care.
Christine: Exactly, they don't care.
Kendra: The benefit. They don't care. The benefit is a supportive community of similar people and/or access to experts who answer your questions and keep you accountable. Right? Like, 'Woah, that's actually what I need. Facebook group. Not sure, but like accountability, access to experts, supportive community. Like those things will make me sign up.' Right?
Christine: Totally. Also, call people on their bullshit, right? So tell them. I know it's the human nature to procrastinate. I know it's normal to tell yourself it's not the right time. I don't have the finances. I'm not quite ready yet, but here's what I know. And then tell them what you know. I know that working with me, we'll give you a results. I know that you are not just suffering yourself but to your whole surrounding is suffering with you because you feel like crap and they care about you. I know that you are risking to get worse, you know, so all of these things tell them and what you can also do, this is public speaking kind of tricks. How to sound on stage, but what you can also tell them is it a situation where you were in a similar position and where you took the risk or you took plunge. So tell them a story where you took a decision, where you were on the fence, you've took the decision, and it had a huge impact on your life.
Christine: So it could be, I know the guy who trained me, he's always talking about his daughter said, telling him, asking him to go and watch the sunset with her and she'd gone to college and it was like 5:30 in the morning and you know, it was nice and toasty in bed and he was like the alarm went off. And he was like, 'Oh My God, why am I doing this?' But he went, he got up and it was a beautiful sunrise, was beautiful moment with his daughter, they're totally reconnected. So sometimes you just wants to stay in bed. You're just don't want you to take the plunge. But when you do it, you really get a reward. So use that, use that technique. This is golden people, I paid good money to get this, but use that in your email, you know, tell that story, tell it by a video. You know, do it, like it's really helping people to take that plunge.
Kendra: I love that. Yeah, and that just goes to like the fact that you need to speak to those pain points, like what keeps your people up at night, like what is their main. You got to know your people, like what is the thing that is making it really hard for them to live their fullest life? Like you speak to those pain points, you know. I think that's really important and just really focus on those benefits. Right? And telling those stories like, you know, you can't just be like, 'Hey, buy my, buy my staff,' like maybe a minute, five minute reminder is more of like, 'Hey, just a reminder like this is, you need to get this now,' like that can be more straightforward sales, but all that stuff leading up to that, it needs to actually engage people and show your personality, get to know you, you know.
Christine: Yeah. And obviously don't lie, like keep it real.
Kendra: Keep it real.
Christine: But, I mean you created this thing for them you need to tell them exactly what is in there, you know, it's just. Yeah.
Kendra: Totally. Yeah. So that's the email strategy. Don't worry about unsubscribes, send lots of emails, talk about benefits, share stories, share testimonials, you know, call people on their bullshit. Like Christine says.
Christine: I'm like totally like out there now, but it's like, it's just the fastest way to make people to understand.
Kendra: I love it, I love it. Tough love. That's how I roll too.
Christine: Good, so emails. What else do we have?
Kendra: We have social media. So that's the next thing you need to think about. And during the launch, you want to be posting regularly on social media. Most of my people come to me through Facebook. So during my launch, I went live on my Facebook page every single day of the launch with the exception of the weekend because I was out in the sun, but I went live every single day and I didn't just, you know, talk about the program, but I did very, kind of high value topics that were relevant to what I was actually selling. So I talked about different, you know, health issues that people are going through. Like I had a one on thyroid, I had one on hormones, I talked about gut health and all the parasites I've had, and it all came down to like the bottom line is you need to run this test to determine if you have this thing to get rid of it. Where can you get the testing in my membership, come into my membership, you can upgrade and get that test in there. So I basically gave tons of value doing those live streams. At the beginning I reminded people of the membership and like the cart close date and then at the end I reminded them as well, but the bulk of that live stream was really, really valuable. And this was actually the only ad spend that I had for the entire launch because I boosted, I created ads out of those videos and I just sent them to my Facebook fans. So I did, this was more of a Beta launch for me. I didn't put it out to cold traffic, I only put it to my people. So every day I would just run that video to my Facebook fans for 24 hours, and I think that really helped just, you know, make, create awareness and let people know like, 'Hey, like this is happening and you need to get on it if you want to get in.' Right?
Christine: No, absolutely agree. I think it's, start with a Beta launch or with a soft launch just with your tribe. And then when you figure out the kinks [inaudible]. I didn't sleep like a boss. I'm like, I didn't sleep enough. I went out and partied had people. I am suffering [inaudible].
Kendra: Christine was getting it on, dance style.
Christine: During the week.
Kendra: Oh dear.
Christine: But it was fun. But what did I want to say? Yes. So do soft launch. Do a trial launch, a Beta launch first, you know, lower price point just with your tribe. People that know you already, work out the kinks and if there's anything that's not quite working. Then for the second launch we can just reach out, branch out and do it again. But I think yeah, video as both of us said also when we talked about video like live, it's just the easiest way on Facebook to convert for sure.
Kendra: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, during those live streams you can show your personality and like people, it helps you connect with people. So that people are going to be way more likely to want to come into your program. And I had one live video right at the end where I offered a live tour into the membership, at that point I had mostly completed it. So I gave people a little bit of a tour. So I showed them like, this is what's in it, this is what it looks like. And people were pretty happy about that because, you know, some people, they just, they want to see something before they buy it. Right?
Kendra: So that's a good way to do it. Offer them a bit of a live tour. I just did that for my Facebook page.
Christine: Yeah. I actually had a video like that on my sales page where I went behind the scenes, [inaudible] I showed them how to log in, what was there, where to click, and then I had people, you know, who would worry that it's digital. It's just super simple. Right.
Kendra: I love that. Yeah, that's actually a really good idea to just put that right onto the sales page so people can just see what they need to see. Yeah. So I mean that's pretty much what I did, Christine. And, and in the end the result was I sold 55 spots into the membership and I generated $7,500 with $60 ad spend. So to me that was a huge success.
Christine: It is.
Kendra: A big point why I was able to sell so much at a low price offers because I actually offered a year upfront in advance, like a onetime only year upfront year.
Kendra: I did it for $27 a month. The regular cost of the membership is going to be $47, but I did it for $27 a month, which is really low cost. But I was like so much work goes in on the front end of creating a program. So I was like well if I offer this year in advance, maybe 10 to 15 people will purchase that. And then I've got that money and then I have a group of people who are committed for a year. Right?
Kendra: So I think. So that worked out really well for me and actually a lot more people went for it then I thought they would.
Christine: So now you got to do it, lady.
Kendra: That was really cool, so you know, it was, it was really successful, like minimal ad spend and I think that's something that a lot of people can, it like, hope for or change towards, because you know, you see so much stuff out on social media, these people are like, 'Oh, I just had a $50,000 launch, I just sold $100k launch,' but like I guarantee that is gross, and you have no idea how much money they spent in ads and if they had a $50,000 launch, they may have spent $25,000 or more in ads.
Christine: Oh yeah. Let me tell you, if you have a huge, huge launch where you have affiliates and everything, you affiliate manager alone is going to cost you over a thousand bucks a month. Usually they have a retainer where they cost around $3,000 a month and that's just a team that is looking after your affiliates, right? That is looking who should be your affiliate? What your affiliates have to do? Checking the list size of your affiliates, writing the copy. That's even often a different person. So you have a copywriter, you have an affiliate manager of a team, you have social media manager. Very often affiliates will get 50% of the cut most of the time. Facebook ads is going to cost you, Google ads, YouTube ads, whatever you want to use. All of that is huge cost and I know for a fact that there have been like seven figure launches, but there was like a $240,000 loss of people, you know, asking for refunds plus the affiliates and everything. So from a six figure it went down again to a six, no seven to a six figure launch was still not bad. But there was a lot of money lost, right? So that's how I did mine. I had 230 something euro ad spend and I made a 850 or something, euro gross revenues. So my win, my profit was around 600 and it just, it was just really. My list size is tiny so it was really just for my list and it was not nothing fancy. I didn't put a lot of time in it. So, if I had then scaled or if I wanted to scale it, have a bigger ad spent and the proportion would be the same. I would obviously have made more money. So it's like, it depends on what you want to do. Right. But I think that's why you should always start with a smaller launch and see how it works and when you know how well a lead converts into a sale than you know whether you have a valuable product.
Kendra: Exactly. Yeah. And I, I feel like when I first decided I wanted to start launching, like I would feel really overwhelmed by all those people out there who talk about these massive, you know, 15k, 20k, 40k, 50k launches. But once I've started doing it, I've realized like how expensive it is. So those people aren't reporting net income, you know, they're recording gross.
Christine: Yeah, so totally.
Kendra: It costs $6 to get someone on a Webinar via a Facebook ad. That's the average cost per lead just to get someone to sign up for a Webinar, they're probably not even going to show up live. Like it's really expensive.
Christine: Exactly. And I think that's what we need to talk about at some point to is high ticket versus low tickets.
Christine: If you have something that sells like hotcakes and obviously use your low ticket item. But for me, if I have to spend $6 on someone getting to my Webinar and my Webinar converts just at 3%, I don't even know, I haven't tried it yet. My average sale is around 8k. So for me that's peanuts, right? So it's well spent, but if your package is just like $26 or something or $15 or $20 an hour, then obviously you need to really think about this.
Kendra: You do need to think about it. And like for me moving forward, like with a $47 a month product, like I'll launch yet. But that launch, like I'm not going to make money off of it, but right, because at $47 a month like that, to get 100 people in, it's probably going to cost me about that much to even get them in. But the thing is then it's recurring revenue, so that first month maybe a loss or it may be not a huge, you know, profit. But then if they stick, if I can keep them in, if I can keep that retention high, then it makes sense to do it. But you really have to think, you really have to do your numbers properly. Like, you know, how many people are on your list, what is your average open list, what is a good cost per conversion? Like, I would say cost per conversion ranges from 1 to 10 percent. 10% is really fricking good. You need to have a really engaged following to get a 10% conversion, right? Like I would say 2, 3 percent is more typical. So you kind of have to run the numbers and make sure you know, it's worth it. And for your first launch, like just put it out to your people. See how it goes. Right?
Christine: No, absolutely. I mean there's so much behind this, but this is good start. Get trying and then see what you can do.
Christine: I totally recommend ‘Bushra's program for beginners.’ It's great program. ‘Sold Out Launch,’ I think it's going to, it launches just 3, 4 times a year I believe. And it's a, it's a fantastic program, so I can totally recommend that.
Kendra: Awesome. Yeah, yeah. There's lots of good tools out there and, you know, I think, I think the reason that I honestly think the main reason I was successful is because I asked my people what they wanted and then I give them what they wanted. That was the biggest thing and then I think offering that one year and full helped me generate more income at least initially and now I just have to come up with a plan, how to get people moving into it forward, which is a whole new thing.
Christine: Yeah. So that's 'evergreen' basically meaning that, you know, it's available all year long. So how can you make it valuable? So how can you make people say, 'Oh, I'm just going to get it tomorrow then.' Right? So the evergreen is a completely different principal. I think we're going to do a separate episode on this most likely, or get an expert, an evergreen expert on here to make sure that you understand how to use that best. I personally haven't done an evergreen launch. Kendra is now doing it, so it might be a good idea to do as a test bunny.
Kendra: Yeah, and it's interesting. Like, since I like the founding member discount ended. I've already had like five people sign up at the regular price with and I don't even know where they came from, so that's a good start.
Christine: Yeah, I had tons of people. They're not even on my list and that's when I go, okay.
Kendra: Where do you even come from? But yeah, like it's definitely like to get an evergreen, a really good evergreen funnel so that you can be constantly offering something. Like you may have to launch it a couple times, you may have to test it, perfect it. Figure out what people actually want. That's normal. I've heard that you need to launch something like four or five times before it can go evergreen because at that point you've, you've, you've perfected it. He figured it out.
Christine: Your funnel needs to be pristine though. So. And I actually recommend if you're crap at writing copy, get someone to write it for you. You have people who focus on writing copy for evergreen. So I would say one of the most famous copywriters, probably Tarzan Kay, she's very, very famous for copywriting funnel emails. Another friend of mine is Jennifer Robbins. She's also focusing on evergreen and get the copywriter who knows exactly what they do with your email in order to keep it hot basically.
Kendra: Yeah, totally. Yep, absolutely. I think, you know, and I worked with a copywriter last year and what I did was I wrote all my own copy and she went through and made it better, which I liked because it still sound like me.
Christine: Yep, you can do different packages. Yeah. How to work with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kendra: I mean you want it to sound like you in the end, like you don't want to bring in some really expensive copywriter that in the end it doesn't even sound like you because that's not to the people following you.
Christine: No, no, no, they shouldn't have like a really expensive copywriter should be able to get you, you know, so it's a red flag if they don't, don't pay them money if they don't.
Kendra: Awesome. Well that was fun. That was a really fun topic to talk about and I hope that helped everyone clarify the launch process and whether you should do it or not.
Christine: Well it's been, it's always been money for both of us, you know, like. Good.
Kendra: I think it's worth it to do it,
Christine: To try it at least once. If you had an online business, you have to try at once.
Kendra: It's definitely like, you know, my Beta launches have not had been pretty, you know, like medium stress, but like the real launches that I've done, that is basically me sitting in front of my computer eating out of an almond butter jar in my Lulu Lemons, like hair, like twisted around my head. It's a lot of work.
Christine: It's true. Well if you need something, you get someone who's like really stressed out. You can get people who help you launch it.
Christine: I know I have a friend of mine, Yvonne Derckx, D E R C K X, I think. Yvonne Derckx. She is, she used to work for Philips, [inaudible] like huge companies as a project management and now she's independent and she's an entrepreneur and she's helping people launch actually. So she will do your checklist. She will help you to stay on track. So you can find people like that to help you. If you have a team, you just bring her in. She will tell your team what to do and bida bim bida bang. You're done, right?
Kendra: That's awesome.
Christine: It's not worth getting a heart attack or [inaudible].
Kendra: I mean I've, I've done all my launches totally solo, like I have a virtual assistant but she's just kind of behind the scene dealing with the customer service stuff. But like, yeah, like it's, I'm like, I definitely like fantasize about having a team to support me during a launch because yeah, it is a lot of stuff.
Christine: It is a lot of stress. I've done two on my own. One totally flopped. The second one was good because I just took my time with it. Like I just stretched my deadlines. I was like, I can't get this done this week, so I just do it over two weeks. So you know, be flexible with yourself as well, but if I'm ever going to launch something again, which are highly doubt, then I'd have a team for sure.
Kendra: Yep, totally.
Christine: [inaudible] cannot handle it.
Kendra: Totally. Yeah, I know. I'm sick of almond butter. Alright guys. Well thanks so much. I remember if you liked this episode, you got to tell us, leave us a five star review on iTunes or somewhere, anywhere where you listen to your podcast. That's how we know that you liked this stuff and that we will make more episodes just like this, and I think that's all we got for today, Christine.
Christine: Yeah, I think that's it. Thanks guys so much and we will be back in two weeks.
Kendra: Thank you.
Tools mentioned in this episode:
ManyChat create a Facebook Messenger bot for marketing, sales and support
Chatfuel create a Messenger bot for marketing, sales and support on the world’s leading chatbot platform
Mailchimp Marketing Platform for Small Businesses
PayPal Pay Online, Send Money or Set Up a Merchant account
MoonClerk Recurring Payments and One Time Payments Online
Kajabi The fastest and easiest way for people to launch their online business teaching others what they know through online courses, coaching, and membership sites.
Voxer Walkie Talkie App for High Performance Teams
Gmail Email that's intuitive, efficient, and useful.
Matt is a health coach for entrepreneurs, helping them close their contribution gap by helping them build the habits that support the high demands of their lifestyle and using lab testing to find the hidden stressors. He started his formal training as a health coach after listening to over 500 podcasts and seeing over and over how small changes could make a massive difference. As a child, he had massive behavioral issues that were turned completely around by simple food sensitivity testing. In his free time, Matt enjoys cranking iron at the gym, challenging hikes, and playing music.
Christine: Hello everyone and welcome to the 360 Health Biz Podcast. We have a super exciting episode today and you are joined, I am joined by Kendra and by Matt.
Christine: So you have a threesome, [inaudible] not an amazing threesome. I don't know, but anyway it's going to be a super exciting episode where we're going to talk about Chatbots with our expert Matt, who's also an FDN. So both can run (inaudible) through functional diagnostic nutrition, practitioner training, and cause and platform, so that's really exciting.
So let me tell you a little bit more about Matt. So Matt is a health coach for entrepreneurs. So listen up, helping them close their contribution gap by helping them build the habits that support the high demands of their lifestyle and using lab testing to find the hidden stresses. He started his former training as a health coach after listening to over 500 podcasts and seeing over and over how small changes could make a massive difference. As a child he had massive behavioral issues that would turn completely around by simple food sensitivity testing. In his free time Matt enjoys cranking iron at the gym, challenging hikes, and playing music. Now if you don't have a girlfriend yet this would be the perfect kind.
Kendra: I kind of feel like we might be judged 500 podcasts, oh my god.
Christine: I know, I'm just like.
Kendra: I not sure right now, this pressure is building.
Christine: Just a quick side note before we get going, you guys who are always listening to us on our podcast, first of all thank you, but for this one we would actually invite you to head over to our website and also look at the video because we are going to do some screen sharing that it's going to make it just so much easier for you to understand what we're on about today. So that's just a little side note and we're gonna get started.
Kendra: Awesome. How's it going Matt?
Matt: Awesome. Excited to be here. It's been an exciting week after a lot of traveling in August, I just got back from another trip last week in September like I'm finally set. Yeah, life is life's really good right now.
Kendra: That's good to hear, and we're gonna be talking about a topic that I am so excited to talk about. It really brings out the inner nerd in me, we're going to be talking about Chatbots, and you guys might not have any idea what that is and it might sound scary or creepy because it has the word 'bot' in it, but Matt why don't you break down like what is a Chatbot?
Matt: So think of like a Chatbot as just like an autoresponder. I mean that's kind of all it is.
Matt: User says something and then they get something back automatically and you don't have to reply to them.
Matt: So instead of having your sales conversation over and over and over again you can, after you've had enough those conversations, you can say hey what questions are these people asking, and then turn it around and provide it as value or just you know, walk them through the self process that way.
Christine: That's amazing. Like it used to be an out of office reply like, people were in holiday and they would just say I'll be back in a week, and now here you've got a whole process. So it's super super exciting.
Kendra: So what platform could you use a Chatbot on?
Matt: The most popular platforms are ManyChat and Chatfuel. My mentor recommended Chatfuel to me because there's just a couple other little features and his experience which he helps people like really grow these things. He says that Chatfuel is a little more stable.
Kendra: Okay, and so what do you do with this Chatbot, like do like connect it to a social media platform, do you connect it to your website, like where does this Chatbot go and where is it interacting with people?
Matt: Yeah totally. So the Chatbot is primary, at least through Chatfuel and ManyChat can be linked through a single Facebook page. So not a personal profile but a Facebook page and not a group, but there are ways to bring it onto your website. So I know for sure that ManyChat and Chatfuel I think have, can be embedded on the website. So you can have people come to your website and have a little thing in the bottom right, 'hey send us a message,'like, 'got any questions,' and then you know just have them pull up the menu that way.
Christine: Amazing. So before we go into the how's and like the nuts and bolts, why would anyone bother getting a Chatbot? Like there must be a reason for their existence, I know that they are, I know some, but I want to hear from you.
Matt: Yeah, yeah.
Christine: So I 'm new to this, I never heard of it, I'm barely getting coming to grips with Mailchimp or anything like that, now I'm hearing Chatbot, freaking out, what is this? Why should I be listening to this episode and how can it make me clients and money? Because that's basically what we're here for.
Kendra: That's the bottom line.
Matt: There is. There's so much awesome stuff to say here. So I was talking to someone yesterday and they're like, 'yeah you know, I don't have an email list going and they're not segmented,' and all this stuff, and I was like, 'dude, email open rates are like 10% to 30%. Chatbot open rates are like 90%, which you can't tell if somebody actually read the message you can tell that they opened it just because they're trying to keep that inbox count low, but you would know at least that they're looking at it. And it's on a platform where people aren't overwhelmed. So I think, I think if you get on Chatbots right now you're gonna kind of be in the early majority.
Yeah, so the next thing is I see this over and over again, it makes me want to bang my head against the wall, because I've done a lot of working in video and kind of sort of like social media management, I see everybody going on Facebook or YouTube or Instagram and when you introduce more and more platforms to your business you introduce more and more overhead, because any kind of content you make has to be tuned for that platform. I'm not gonna post the same like emoji loaded posts that I post on Instagram or Facebook as I do on LinkedIn, right. So it's like you're having to duplicate your work over and over and over again, but then the next like big thing I see is like Facebook is like the biggest nation in the world, basically. It's like however many billion people on it right, and so people get on Facebook and then they're like, 'hey check out my YouTube channel or read my new blog post,'and the thing is it's not beneficial for Facebook to just directtraffic to all these other websites they really want to keep you in Facebook, andthe coolest coolest thing about the bot is that when you share the links to yourbot it doesn't get penalized like a link to an externalsite like YouTube or your personal website does, but what you can do is say, 'hey guys I put up a new blog you know you can learn all about it in my Chatbot,' or something and then have the little menu in the Chatbot, blog, latestblog, or whatever and then you can share it that way.And so the bot is like the ultimate traffic director.
After you have people in there you can share the link without penalty and if you bring them outside of the bot they also there's no there's no penalty there. So I could bring themto my personal website after that or the podcast page or whatever. So that, thoseare like the biggest reasons. So a little tiny quick recap, is biggestreasons are, no penalty for sharing that link on your personal Facebook profile,and the open rates are way better.
Christine: Yeah, so instead of having to set up an email,sent that out, having it ignored by tons of people, here you will basically havemessenger pop up right. So you just for people to understand like, it's literallywhen you have the option to just instead of sending an email you willsend all of these messengers and basically the people who are in your botsystem will have a ping ping, and it will look like they've got a message fromtheir friends as they are used to, so kind of reaction will be much morenatural to open it, right. So yeah, that's basically what it is.
Matt: Yeah totally, and before people get like way too excitedlike, 'oh I can just message these people as much as they want,' there are kindof some rules or best practice with that and I believe the best practiceis pretty much for campaigns like, so a campaign is any time you take all thosepeople on your bot list who have ever kind of communicated with it andyou send them a message, that's a campaign, is I would only do thatonce every like two weeks maybe, once a week.
Christine: At the most.
Kendra: Okay, that's good to know because Ifeel like it separates that from email right, because with email we'redefinitely emailing people once a week, some of us might be emailing twice aweek, but yeah, with the bots it is a bit more invasive. Like you're youknow, people and people don't always understand what it is. I've beenusing ManyChat for a while now and some people talk to me like I'msending them an individual message. Like they don't realizethat it's a mass message.
Kendra: It can be a bit I guess like off-putting if you're messaging people constantly and they're like why the hell is this person all upin my grill.
Matt: Yeah totally. So one of the things you kind of likeavoid that is to give your bot like a personality like, I'm not really good atlike personalities I just put the name like Joey in there right now, and I'llchange it to something better later. But it's like, 'hey this is Bob standing in for Matt,' or something right, and then, 'oh I'm talking to Bob,' or I'm talking to R2D2 or C-3PO this robot assistant you know.
Kendra: Yeah. Transparency is important right.
Matt: Separatefrom you. Yeah, and I mean you could get into a whole conversation about you know,are they talking with your business as a brand and somebody representing thatbrand or are they talking to you as like a personal brand like, individually. Soit's like you have to consider the context of the conversation.
Christine: Yeah. I agree. Because some people, like I have a bot set up and it's not very, it's half-heartedly done. So it's basically asking the same question over and over again and I can't get it to stop. And it's just like I probably need to figure it out. But yeah, people don't get it like literally they get super annoyed.
Christine: I just turn the whole thing off. But yes, transparency might be key, I love the idea of just being full on like, 'Christine isn't right here or isn't here right now but I'm her super cute fluffy nice bot monkey bot,' whatever making a message. You know, but I think it's much more transparent. So that's a super cool idea.
Now, let's see. So how do people actually get on that list? So we have the idea that you can, all the people who are in the system, you can send them like an email, a message about a blog post that goes out a problem whatever, but how do you actually get them in there? So when I understand, it's in the messenger, but how do people actually reach out? So you said something about posting links and Kendra also mentioned that it can be on your website so let's maybe walk through the two different options.
Matt: Yes. So if you do like a, so the thing to know is that your personal page on Facebook which is like I'm Matt right, like that's my personal Facebook page, that has so much more reach than then posting on a business page, and again like we said earlier that's where the majority of people are.
So if you want to get more people in your bot, I always think about like value-based marketing instead of just like selling people, because when you when you're value-based you have people coming to you who say like, 'wow, I've seen how much value,' and you're building this incredible amount of credibility and they really respect what you have to say and those are the people you want to work with. So when you share that link, 'hey guys I just added a new section on my bot, I added the biohacking section, go check it out,' you know, and so everybody, you know, so you might not have maybe, you were talking about lab testing in your bot or maybe you're talking about diet or like sleep or something and that hasn't previously interested someone but when you announce those new sections, those new learning materials in your bot, then that's one way people can get in off your personal profile. And then the next way would be the bots, so like I said earlier, the bot is linked to the Facebook like public page, like the business page, and so you can change that button. So there's kind of like the profile picture on the left, there's the banner, and then there's a couple buttons towards the right side, and it'll and you can change that button to say, 'send message,' and when people actually first navigates that business page, at least on desktop, the little thing will pop up and say, 'hey you know would you like to send a message.' Especially if you haven't set it up I know what does that, but if they click send message, then they're on your on your bot.
Kendra: Okay, and then you said the other way is to use that link that goes directly to your Chatbots and use that link like in other posts, like you could use it on a post on your business page but also on your personal page and that would direct people directly into the bot.
Matt: Totally. Yep, so those links are always are m.me/ whatever your page name is. So like the person who's been mentoring me on this, he has taught me that, he's like Matt you don't need a website all you need is like a Chatbot right, because it's like instead of thinking...
Christine: So cool.
Matt: about doing your blog post on some other website that you gotta you know, do three steps to get maximum reach on it from personal Facebook page, what if you just posted those blog posts on your Facebook profile where it's public to the world anyways.
Christine: Now wait a minute.
Matt: Yeah and then you got a guided them through the bot. Yeah so like..
Christine: How do you post a blogpost in a bot?
Matt: You wouldn't, okay so you wouldn't post it in the bot. So it's like you log onto your personal Facebook page right, and instead of having you know most blogs are like 500 words, that's kind of a short blog, 2000 getting that's solid you know, and if you're routinely doing that and like having a bunch of citations and everything then yeah website, might work a little better for that, but if it's just, 'hey here's you know how to make a green smoothie,' you know that's not that's not a complicated post right. So sharing that in Facebook instead and you get the reach through the business page, 'hey guys if you want more recipes you know you can get on my bot here,' or something or write your like, 'download this,' you know whatever.
Matt: There's just a million different ways you could do it. So instead of putting your blog on like a separate website and then going over to Facebook and say, hey go to my blog you just put it on Facebook in the first place and then you could you know once every two weeks or so, 'hey guys I put up a new blog post check it out here,' and then there's a little button right below that chat and then you can grab what's called the permalink to that post on your business page.
Christine: Now I got it.
Matt: Yeah, you get that permalink so it says you know say, 'Matt Wright,' and then it'll say, 'April 20th you know 2017 at 4 o'clock p.m.' or whatever. You click that time or date or it'll say 4 hours ago, you click that and then that'll give you the URL for the permalink. It'll say facebook.com/permalink bunch of numbers.
Christine: See now I got it. This is cool.
Matt: Whole new paradigm
Christine: Yeah. So instead of sending them to your post immediately, you send them to your Chatbot where they have to click a button to get to the post but that way you gather them into your system. So it's like a middle step, but it's allowing you to get there.
Matt: Yeah. I mean so you also get organic reach from your Facebook page even though it's not much and so what you can do is, there's a lot of people who will make a post on their there and this is, pay very close attention to the terminology here, there are "tags" and there are "mentions" and they are different. So a @mention okay, so that's how you "mention" someone and then there's also a "tag," and so a "tag" is I'm with 'blank.' So if you "tag" someone on a business page post it will show up on their personal profile.
Matt: So instead of sharing it, because if you're sharing it, what happens is that people can comment on the share on your profile or if they click into the post and they're commenting on the post and in essence you're competing with yourself, hey do I want my comments on my personal page or don't want my comments on my business page.
Christine: I've got it wrong, crap, yeah.
Matt: Yeah. Yeah so, I mean play with it and figure out what it is. And so like I have a bunch of little index cards on my desk and so I like doing what's called rhythms so like I'll go through and I'll communicate in a couple different Facebook groups and so like this is my rhythm for all the groups I do and all like the post type things I want to do and that's just an index card I keep on my desk. My morning and evening routine, they sit over there on my counter. So every, any time I'm like what do I do next, I just pick up a little index card. So you could write "tag" or "mention" you know. Write whatever down helps you remember it just on a little index card or a stick you know and keep that around.
Kendra: So you're saying to just you sorry, you "mention" or you "tag" your personal profile on this business blog post that you've made.
Matt: That's correct
Matt: Yep, tag from the business page.
Kendra: Tag from the business page, don't share it, tag yourself.
Matt: Tag yourself in the original post.
Kendra: Okay. This is juicy. I love this.
Christine: Yeah. I'm like I'm going to go back to my post and tag myself.
Matt: Yeah. Yeah, and that's a totally valid way to do it so.
Kendra: Very cool. Okay, so we've talked about Facebook but can you also do something like this with Instagram or with other platforms with a bot.
Matt: Absolutely. So what I've done on my own Instagram profile, which needs a little bit of tweaking, on the bio is instead of doing that link and profile thing and then bringing to the website or bringing people to the Facebook page where they might like it or they might interact or they're gonna get lost clicking on menu, about me, you know surfaces, or whatever right, just take them right into the bot and then have those options there,
Matt: and big big note here, big special note okay, is that when people get in your bot that you need to have a kind of disclaimer message. So for me there's two messages, the first message is, 'hey welcome to my bot,' and then the second message is, 'would you like to sign up for updates yes or no,' and so they're consenting to, hey you are allowed to send me messages and then as health practitioners, we want to share what we know, what the little tips and tricks that have worked for us, and we want to share things about like labs or the technical stuff, that we know is real but we're also, not all of us, are not licensed medical professionals. So I also have a disclaimer in there and it just says, 'hey I'm not a doctor. I don't play one on the internet,' and all you know it's fun and then they say yes I acknowledge this and if they don't acknowledge it then they can't go further and get that information.
So it's like, so for a health practitioner it's a two-step thing it's, 'hey I want to get messages,' step two is, 'hey you're not a medical doctor and I'm acknowledging that cool,' and then they can get to the main menu.
Christine: I love that. The reason why is I love this too is because I work in three languages. So actually the bot allows me to send when people that way straight from the get go. It's super cool. Yeah, and I'm not complying by the way. I'm just like, I don't have that.
Kendra: Your scamming people.
Matt: So the next big big thing is that you know, there's a lot a lot of people on messenger but for Instagram, ultimately what I'm gonna do is I'm probably gonna use that link tree thing and then I'm gonna say you know people do a post blah blah blah and I still see this so I just want to clarify, is you can't share a link on a post and Instagram, so it's like blah blah blah read my blog post they can't click it nobody's going to sit there going H T T P S w w slash slash dot com.
Kendra: Yeah, no one’s going to do that.
Matt: Dash, come on. No one's gonna do that so get it, share it in your profile. So what you could do is you could use the link tree, 'hey guys, link in bio,' and then they click on the link tree and the first link there is the Chatbot, so they can get in that way, hey the info is in the chat bot or you want to bring them to a specific blog post or write to the podcast or whatever you're on and so you can you can still split it up that way. You don't have to funnel absolutely everybody into the Chatbot, but I just, I have mine set for my Chatbot right now. And so yeah, go ahead next question, I could go on.
Christine: Yeah. No but it makes sense. It totally makes sense, because I am really super annoyed by this linked in not being able to press links, hyperlinks, and go to things so, no, it makes sense and so yeah and I like it also that you can just have a download button that you can add attachments.
So let's say you have a blog post and you could even say look I have a free gift that goes better and you just download it, and technically you could just write your blog post in a word doc and then when people click on, 'do you want the blog post, yes,' they would just get the word doc as an attachment.
Matt: Yeah. Yeah, that's one way to do it. I'm always thinking about like how am I gonna use this and like user experience. So like one of the things I'm very like sensitive to is like how easy is it to like do the things in my life? So like having a morning routine, like makes it like a thoughtless process for me to like get up and then start my day in an organized way and like feel good. So like even on my shades in my bedroom there's the little pull things right, and so I always pull the shades a specific direction, so I put like a little piece of tape on there. So I can just go over there blindly feel it and just like throw that one and I get the shades going the right way every time. So it's like it's that sensitive for some people.
So it's like it's like yeah, yeah okay so like I put I made a little freebie thing recently right and so if I click get it or something and then it goes to a word doc well, I can't view a word doc on my phone or like PDF okay, it's like after they see that how are they really actually going to use this? How do you want to interact with it? You don't want ten different steps to do it, you don't want to have to think.
Matt: You wouldn't want to click next next next next next next and so you could think.
Kendra: Yeah, and I mean I love the Chatbot, because you know you're mentioning about like email open rates and I have just a little mini chat little bot on my website, you know it's kind of like the pop-up like the customer service window and before when people used to contact me through my website, I'd get, it go to my email and then I email them back but then I'd never hear from them again, but now that they're on the bot, like I have access, unless they unsubscribe, to their Facebook page and honestly, I sell most of my clients I get them, I turn them into clients through Facebook Messenger these days. I do that with probably about more than half of the people who I'm signing his clients. I'm not even getting on a Discovery Call.
Matt: That's awesome.
Kendra: I'm not doing anything. I'm selling them on the Chatbot. It's so crazy, I just added that a few months ago and I was like this is a game-changer like I almost need to shut it down because I'm too busy.
Christine: So Kendra, how does it work, tell us, walk us through your Chatbot. So I'm coming to your website and then, just for people who don't know how it works, so you have basically a plug-in where you enter some code and it, when you go to the website it would just pop up and it has your Facebook picture, if not on Facebook, and then you can just type it. So it's much more intuitive and you can have them all your pages.
Kendra: This is like a very simple bot. It's just from ManyChat, it's a little code, I think it's in like my header script or something like that. It pops up on every page just in the little bottom right corner and it just says, 'hey, how can I help you?' and then people might ask me questions, and then my auto response is like, 'hey this is Kendra's assistant bot like nice to meet you, what do you need help with?' and it's like I have like my gut, my hormones, I don't know what I need help with, and they can select one of those three options and then it responds it's like, 'great, are you willing to provide me with some more information, I'll pass it along to Kendra and she'll get back to you personally within one business day,' or something like that probably much sooner.
Christine: And then it'll shut up, then it's quiet?
Kendra: And then it shuts up.
Matt: I think that's really awesome.
Kendra: Yeah and that's it, and then I come in there and I usually respond sooner than one day, but then I can actually have this ongoing dialogue. I think the only thing missing is I'd love to be able to just send people like, invoice them over the messenger because that would make it even more.
Matt: I would just use PayPal and then you can send them a paypal.me link for a specific amount, where they can type it in.
Kendra: That's true, I just hate PayPal.
Kendra: Okay. Does MoonClerk go through the stripe?
Kendra: Perfect. Yeah I like stripe. I hate PayPal. So I'll look into that.
Matt: So one of the other things you can do in your bot is, you could actually deliver an entire program through a bot. Again, I'm very sensitive to like user experience, so I would not like to sit there and like I, say I buy a course on like wood carving or something right, like I'm not gonna want to sit there and read the 600-word message in a bot right, like.
Matt: I generally keep the messages like pretty short and if it's longer then you bounce them out to wherever the whole of the content is, so that could be you know a Facebook post or you know a website. But the thing is what you can do is you could have someone pay for a program and then you can manually go into your Chatbot and there's different like tags right like hey this person is subscriber or hey this person is in program 1 or program to a program 3 and having them in program 1, 2 or 3 you can have, you can allow them access to different menus and things. So say after someone's in the program you want to give them access to a library of videos or something, so instead of having to like log on to a desktop, log into like my Kajabi or some course thing right, have all your videos in a secret Facebook group and then have the Chatbot you know, hey Chatbot I need to help with travel or something, and then goes, here's the travel video, and only the people in the program can get to it but then it's just linking them to a video that's in the secret Facebook group. So it's like, so instead of having to like go through and flip through all these videos, they can message a personal assistant and get like a customized kind of response back.
Christine: Ohhh. Juicy, but they would have to know what to look for though.
Matt: Well, like think about how like a person messages. Like, hey Matt, I need, like what kind of messages you see, 'hey Matt, I keep waking up at 2 or 3 a.m.' and it's like, here's the video on that, or something.
Christine: Okay [inaudible].
Matt: [inaudible] something else
Christine: So you have a base of keywords that when people type in the keyword your bot will know what to send them, basically.
Matt: Correct. Yeah, and that's, in Chatfuel that's called set up AI and then you can set up keyword and then have it linked to specific blocks, which are the parts in the bot.
Christine: I do you like that. I do like that idea or my second thought of genius was you know, we have lots of health coaches listening to this is, you know people need accountability. So just having the drip-feed kind of campaign where every day they would get a message. So for me it would be, hey this is your lovely sleep expert of the day, how did you do with your sleep hygiene or I don't know did you manage get out of bed in time? I'm watching you. I don't know.
Matt: How many times have you downloaded an app that sends you daily notifications and that is the thing that keeps you accountable.
Christine: Yeah, so...
Matt: It doesn't for me. So I would rather, I would rather have, structure of my program, and again this is up to how you want to run your program, I'd rather structure it as weekly check-ins or you know, have a separate platform where they can message you specifically like Voxer or something is a good one.
Christine: Interesting, but it's so much opportunity there. I mean it's crazy. Yeah.
Kendra: Yeah, and so how do people, so once they, let's talk about how people get out of your Chatbot, because obviously like they opt in, they're in they're in it for a while, but maybe they're like okay, I don't want to get messages from Matt anymore, he's annoying me, it's not my thing anymore, I changed my interests, how do people actually get out of that?
Matt: There is, so there's something called a hamburger menu, which is just, I'm like looking for my bot right now so I can find exactly what this button is. Okay, there it is, my light was covering it. Yeah, so right by the little type message there's a little menu, it's three lines and if you click that, I think that should have an option or you can add keywords into the bot, stop, unsubscribe, quit, you know, I mean or other insults you get, 'hey, this is so annoying,' okay, your unsubscribed know. Yeah, it's just keyword triggers for that.
Kendra: Cool. Yeah and I always, every time I send out a broadcast email, I always have a PS like PS: if you don't want this contact this content type stop. Just so that people always know how to get out of it. Kind of like the unsubscribe button in the email like.
Kendra: I've been getting emails from this one person and there's no unsubscribe button, and I'm like what's the, what the hell.
Kendra: I think it's illegal yeah. I'm like how do I get out of this? And I'm like replying back, I'm like unsubscribe but.. [inaudible]
Matt: Side note it's also illegal to just take random chunks of downloaded contacts from over the years and in Gmail or whatever program you use and just upload them to an emailing list platform. That is legal.
Matt: They have to consent to it.
Kendra: So I have a question. So with the bot that you use are you able to do, because what I'll do sometimes is I'll connect that bot to a specific Facebook post, like maybe it's a Facebook live that I'm doing or some other post I'll be like, 'hey like comment this word to get the guide or to get the handout,' and all they have to do is comment on that post and then they'll get the message through the bot, through messenger, that will deliver them that lead magnet or whatever it is, do you use it in that way?
Matt: Yeah. I'm just starting to use it in that way. So I made something for the show actually which we'll talk about at the end. Yeah, so you can totally use it that way. I mean it's kind of one of those things, it's like you ask people a question, like I was into maker electronics for a while, so like the Raspberry Pi Arduino and all that and I was trying to build like an automated watering system, and so if you hand someone this technology and you say, 'oh you can do anything with it, what would you do?’ People are kinda like, 'ahhh, I don't I don't know what I do,' but if you tell them like, hey what if you could do this, and you start introducing just a couple of the options to them, then all the dots start to connect.
Christine: Yeah I do love the chat kind of option, I find it was really well with my videos and when I just say look I've created this guide or cheat sheet just comment below or just say that keyword, it works really really well. People like it.
Matt: Yes. So there's one thing I'd really love to get to before we close this out and that is actually how to boost the reach of your of the post on your personal Facebook profile and the technique works similarly for Instagram as well. But yeah that's another thing you can do with bots, is you don't have to just enter the keyword while talking to the bot, you can have a post on the business page, 'hey guys comment this below to get X,' and so then they can comment you know, hashtag this or whatever, and you want to make it kind of a unique keyword, because if you write the keyword is 'the cat' right, well the AI is gonna go what did they type, the cat or like the space cat or something right.
Matt: And so the AI is automatically gonna pick up some of those other words. So you need to be conscious about the exclusions you're setting for that. It's like what are all the different ways that people could likely type this, then ask, do some [inaudible] for you, but the other thing to be conscious of is, people do this on their personal Facebook profile page a lot, and it's called its engagement bait, 'hey guys my favorite book is blank what's yours below or like drop a gift below,' and so everybody's dropping the same type of comment love this, love this, love this, love this, and then and then the person will come in there it's called a comment letter, I believe, and respond with the exact same link to everybody. If you do that you and so on your personal page you want to kind of limit your responses that are redundant to like five. Like don't go in there and reply to everybody all at once.
Matt: Facebook will just ding it as spam basically. So it's like if I'm if I'm going to everybody say there's 20 comments and I go to every single comment, hey here's the link, hey here's the link, hey here's the link, like that's spam dude.
Christine: That's so funny, because I'm getting into LinkedIn at the moment and it's the exact opposite. It's really the exact opposite. Whenever you get that engagement it goes out whosh through the roof. So Facebook and LinkedIn are so different, it's like it's not even real, but it's lovely. I'm saying goodbye to Facebook actually.
Matt: Yeah, yeah. I think I'm going to move from Facebook as well. Even though I've learned a lot about it so, and it's just it just has to do is target market, so.
Kendra: Yeah, it does.
Christine: Yeah, agree totally, no but this has been super super exciting, and I do like the fact that you put it on your personal facebook profile but and you lead them back to your business page in the end, right, because I mean the times where business pages got a gazillion billion like, so just over, I mean it's Facebook its page play, and I think we're all noticing it, especially in the health sector Facebook is cracking down so hard. I've just heard so many people who had the ads account closed because of not being compliant and using words that are just ridiculous, because they are not doing anything but Facebook is just having this crusade, against health or alternative health, it's just yeah, it's not easy. So you need different things like Chatbots, I don't know, I believe to get people into your system.
Christine: Good. Alright let us quickly check if we have any other notes.
Matt: This is something I'm really excited about it's a, I've copied the notes from the email that I've got in front of me, and it's how to smash reach on your personal Facebook profile. So it's like if you are gonna share this link, well let's see how we can get it max reach. So are you ready to have your mind blown's again.
Kendra: Yes. I'm ready.
Christine: You want to share you screen so that we can see.
Matt: Well, okay, so it's kind of a, it's not hard rules. These aren't real things that it's…
Matt: It's a rule of thumb and it's what works. It's what works right now, this is always changing. Yeah, yeah, but this is something that works right now and it's a rule of thumb it's not real. It's called the points game okay, and so a like on Facebook, you're on your personal profile just in your newsfeed, a 'like' is 1 point, every 'action' is 3 points and a 'heart' is 5 points. A 'comment' is 3 points and a 'love' or a thoughtful comment is 5 points okay, and you want to get to 50 points before you post. And so then there's another concept and I, yeah, called weeding and watering. So if you don't like what somebody's posting then don't engage with it or in the top right of that post there's also three buttons and you can say hide posts like this or something.
Christine: Hold on one second. So the points, you first have to gather points before you post.
Matt: That's correct.
Christine: Ah, so you go and comment on other people's stuff, gather your 50 points by engaging on other people's stuff before you post on your own.
Matt: Correct, yeah.
Christine: Got it.
Matt: So the big thing with Facebook is that people see more of your stuff when they reply to your comments on their posts. So you go comment on their posts and with thoughtful comment, you know, don't be dumb okay. If they post a picture of their dog, 'hey cool dog,' that'd just be like a comment like, 'hey cool dog, what breed is that?' But don't ask what breed it is if one, you aren't genuinely interested and two, if they say what breed it is in the post, like that's just dumb. That's engagement bait the other way, right. 'Hey man, how long it, what's your favorite part about having a dog? Mine is blank.’ You know, and you end up you know, thoughtful comment it'll be, I generally just think of as a question, that is genuine genuine interest. You know, and it's like Dale Carnegie, if you take genuine interest in people like they're gonna reciprocate right, and that's the way it works on Facebook. So your real goal is getting people to respond to your comments but also getting to those 50 points, make sense?
Christine: Right, yes.
Matt: So do that do that before you post and it's not like oh I got up at 8 a.m. today I'm gonna do 10 of my points. No, so what I do is again like I said I have rhythms, so it's not an index card it's in my head and so the the best time, 80% of people live on the central and east coast us combined, eighty percent of people. So if you post at, if you post at 8 p.m. in Pacific time, so California time, what time is it where eighty percent of people live? It's like 11:00 12:00 a.m. people were in bed. So again ideal posting time, there's not one ideal posting time, but post when the majority of your market is active. So for me.
Christine: Which is actually probably at 12.
Matt: Yeah, totally yeah it is yeah probably is, and so I mean you could sit down and kind of pre-write your post and then kind of just wake up in the middle of the night and wear your blue blockers right, and then you know do your 50 points of engagement and then paste your post in.
Kendra: Okay. So wait a second. So you do this, so just with the point system, you're doing this on other people's posts, on different pages, you're doing this on your own page on a different post that you've already posted to get these points before you post. I just want to make sure I understand.
Matt: It's on other people's posts. So you just go newsfeed, hey John posted, hey I'm gonna comment on John's thing. Oh, Susie posted, I don't like what Susie has to say, so I'm gonna leave that, I'm not gonna engage with it. Oh Parker posted something, oh I'm gonna engage the Parker, that's a really cool picture you know, where's he traveling next. So it's just other people's posts out in the wild. Make sense.
Kendra: Okay, and then after you do that out in the wild, you go to your own business page and post your post whatever it is.
Matt: Personal page.
Kendra: Personal page?
Matt: Yep, this is for personal page.
Kendra: See, I never use my personal page for anything. I don't, I feel like I would not be on social media, if it wasn't for business but I do see a lot of other entrepreneurs using their personal pages and I definitely feel like I must be missing something.
Matt: Yeah, so.
Christine: It's a tricky one I find. Like I think it's, as an entrepreneur you kind, your business is such a big part of you that you, you know that it's just, yeah I think it's hard, because you don't want to annoy a piece of people in your personal friend space, but at the same time your business is you, especially if you're a solo-preneur. So but yes, you can't track people, you have other people on your person page or actually your potential clients. I think you also need to think about that, for me that's a definite no.
Christine: So it's like, I think if you cater for more general health things maybe, but for me it's just if I do it from time to time it's fine but for other people they're ideal clients are in their personal space so.
Matt: Yep totally, so a similar strategy can also be used on Instagram. So before I post on Instagram, hey it's, I know it usually takes me 30 to 60 minutes to go through and get those 50 points or to find posts that I actually want to engage with, because most people, like Facebook doesn't teach you how to use Facebook so…
Matt: people kind of suck at Facebook you know, which is what we're learning about today.
Christine: So weird right, yeah.
Matt: Yeah, yeah. So you can do something similar in Instagram and I shoot to engage with 7 to 10 photos, and the cool thing about Instagram is that if you're, like we said you can still have your Chatbot linked, it can be separate from who you are like personally, so you can keep Facebook as a personal thing but doesn't mean that you can't employ a Chatbot right. Where you could just have it on your website, you know link bio, here's my website, here's my Chatbot, but I have most of the Chatbot can of pointing people into the websites and things. Does that make sense?
Matt: So go through, engage of seven to ten photos that's going to be like a heart, and a thoughtful comment, seven to ten photos, target market time, right and then you would write your post.
Kendra: Okay. That makes sense and I actually, when we talk about Instagram, that makes me more exciting, because I actually really like Instagram. I'd like to engage on Instagram but I just don't on Facebook. I've unfollowed every single person I know.
Christine: I know.
Kendra: The only thing I get on my Facebook page just like business and health stuff. Christine: I know, [inaudible] that's like the same thing for me.
Matt: So, I've heard stats that like a good Instagram profile engagement is between like 2% - 3% but using that strategy, I'm looking at my stuff right now, I have only 460 followers and I'll get like, here's a post with 90 likes and 11 comments, which is like closer to 25% engagement or here's another post with 90 and 9 comments, and 60 likes, 17 comments.
Christine: That's a lot.
Matt: So recap, I always love doing recaps because I hate going back and having to like listen to ten minutes of stuff to figure out what it is. So recap, get on Instagram and at the target market time, 30 to 60 minutes before, however long it takes you to engage with stuff, genuinely ask questions, forward the conversation, okay. So 7 to 10 photos, genuinely engage, then write your post, and in your post, provide like really good value. Don't like go through and like you know get 50 points or whatever, and then you know, hey here's a picture my dog, like yeah that'll help the reach but like is that what we're doing here, like we're marketing. That's what we're doing.
Christine: And I think we need to really explain to people who are listening to this and hear like, 'oh my god I don't have time, an hour a day,' here's the thing you are your business. If people don't see you, they won't know you exist, they won't know that you can help them. So it's about building your network and building your network, network, is part of your business. Unless you have a practice that's completely overrun with clients and you don't know how to pull them off and you have a super high price tag and you still have a gazillion clients, then we might say, ok you don't need engage anymore, but my guess is that a lot of you want to either charge higher ticket and then you don't have all the clients or you have tons or you don't have enough clients to even start with. So building your network, putting in the time of at least an hour a day on social media is just part of the job description. It's maybe not most sexy thing in the world, but it's just thing you've got to do.
Matt: Yeah totally, and if you want to talk about drafting posts, I really do like Instagram because you can draft posts in Instagram. So like anytime like I'm, like I traveled this past week I took like three or four pictures of like the supplements that I took with me or like the I took my blue blockers with me, I took you know a blindfold or not a blindfold, the sleeping mask.
Matt: Different connotation, yes.
Matt: So no, yes, it's a sleeping mask.
Christine: Kinki. You have to look at the video to see what Matt looks like. [inaudible]
Matt: I'm a little bit.
Kendra: I love it.
Matt: Ok, this is ridicules you guys.
Kendra: That's how we role.
Christine: It's just what we do.
Matt: So you're in your environment, take pictures of the stuff you do, the supplements you take or whatever, and then that's your post like or like I'll go rock climbing and my hands will be all torn up right and so that's an opportunity to talk about exercise and like having fun exercising and not just like lifting weights all the time like, I like lifting weights because it makes you look better and you feel awesome doing it, but like I have a lot of fun rock climbing too, and so it's not always about like function, function, function, you have to do this and be in this routine and everything it's like, have some fun every once in a while. And you can just go through and pick those pictures out, and do the drafts, and then you just hit, and if you don't know how, so you would go through you'd pick your picture and then you'd write your little thing and then you just hit the back button and it's gonna say discard post or save draft, save draft and then we click the plus button again the pictures gonna be there, and so is the post, like that's it.
Christine: What did we do? We wanted to talk about Chatbot, now we know how to trick Facebook into thinking we're super engaging and passionate.
Christine: [inaudible] Instagram. We build a funnel, basically we know the do's and don'ts. I think it's amazing. We all use three different Chatbot actually, you use Chatfuel?
Christine: Cat-fuel? Cat-fuel, right?
Matt: Chat-fuel? Chatfuel.
Christine: Which one is it?
Christine: Chatfuel, it makes much more sense. Chatfuel, Kendra uses ManyChat and I use MobileMonkey Ape. So there's three different platforms, I still have to figure mine out but I think it's just because I put in, didn't put in the time, but [inaudible] different things out and you know, compare them and so Matt, when people, do you do like, helping people to set this stuff up.
Matt: I honestly came on this podcast just because I see so many people doing it wrong and these small changes can help you do it right, because we as functional practitioners of various types have a great message, but you aren't always the most versed on social media, you want to sit and read research papers. So listen to this podcast you know, write out on a little index card how to do the stuff, keep it by your computer and then and then do it right, and get your message out there.
Christine: And if you don't, if you have a question, then they can still reach out to you right?
Matt: Totally, yep.
Christine: How do they do that?
Kendra: How do people do that?
Matt: We're gonna we're gonna use the Chatbot for this one, right. Or you could personally you know, so you can go you can go dig around in there. So that link is m.me/mattwrightfdn - m a t t w r i g h t f d n and dot me, [inaudible].
Christine: All right cool, we will link it in the post.
Matt: Perfect. Yeah and so we didn't really talk about like how to get started with the Chatbot, and I'd strongly recommend getting a template by someone you know, who knows what they're doing. Because there are some communities out there where everybody's coming out, oh I'm the expert on this, and it's like they barely know anything. The guy who teaches me, he has his own templates and there...
Christine: Can you share who he is? So that we can check him out and steal it.
Matt: Yeah, his link is m.me/botsdone4u and that's b o t s d o n e 4, number 4, u, and so I also linked that in the little, I put together a little freebie for this on the points game. So you can go in my bot and type in #360healthbiz, b i z and you can go get the points game download and it'll, you can print it off or write it down and it'll explain to you how to how to do the thing.
Christine: I love it. I'm totally gonna steal that opt-in idea. I mean that's genius. Alright people, boys and girls, we've been on for quite a while, so I think that's all we have time for today.
Kendra: Yeah. Thank you so much Matt. That was really awesome. I learned a ton, and for everyone out there, if you guys like this podcast, remember to give us a five star review on iTunes, it helps us get out there, it helps us be seen, and we would give you a shout out, we would send you hearts, we would love you so much if you would do that and you can head to our website: 360healthbizpodcast.com. We have a YouTube channel, we have our transcript on our website, what else do we have? Oh yeah we have a toolkit.
Christine: [inaudible] cupcake money for, Thank You Kendra for this information and Christine and for your time and doing all the show notes and uploads and all of that, then you can buy us a cup of coffee on our patrons site and shout out to Kylene, who left us a five star review...
Christine: on iTunes your our favorite, and we have an amazing free gift as well, not on our Chatbot yet, we have to set that up, but you can, just go to my website and you can get a free tool box, where we have all the tools that we've used in our business. Which is quite a bit, I think it's over 16 or something like that or 20 even, I'm not sure, where you get a description, promo discounts, all kinds of things, everything we use so that you don't have to do the trial and error that we both went through.
Kendra: mm-hmm, awesome.
Christine: We'll see you in two weeks. Bye.
Matt: Myself? Two weeks?
Christine: Every two weeks we have an estimate, every few weeks. So when... [inaudible]
Matt: Oh okay, I was like another interview I don't know about.
Christine: Oh Matt, no sorry, I don't know we...
Kendra: Maybe we'll have you on again.
Matt: Yeah. We could talk we could talk systems. So I had a conversation with Brendon Virmire yesterday, he brought me into metabolic solutions which is mega freaking cool and so I'm doing both health coaching in there as well as like biz dev. So I have a whole business communication and task assignment philosophy. I don't know how it exactly it's gonna transition to the functional medicine stuff and see what he's already got set up, but as far as like conducting online business, the system I've laid out works really.
Kendra: Well we, I want to have him on too. I was just thinking that today. I love Brendon.
Christine: So we'll have you guys test drive that and when you're making shit loads of cashola then you're going to teach us how it works. Anyway, until then thanks for listening everyone and we'll talk to you very soon. Bye.
Tools mentioned in this episode:
RocketLinks Grow your audience by adding retargeting pixels and own Call-to-Action to your branded links.
Grab our Ultimate Stool Testing Cheat Sheet for all the secrets we mention in this episode!
Christine: Hi everyone and welcome to this wonderful episode of the 360 Health Biz podcast with Kendra Perry, my wonderful partner and myself, Christine Hansen.
Christine: And today we are super excited because we have a lot, lot to talk about, which is superinteresting for practitioners as well as if you are somewhat trying to improve your health. So first of though before we going into how should I say, introduced this steamy topic, we're going to have a quick round of shoutouts and we had two amazing people who left reviews for us on iTunes. So Kendra, maybe you want to introduce that because it was absolutely amazing and also to say hi to everyone.
Kendra: Yeah, well, Hi Christine. I'm really excited for today's steamy topic because we're talking about poop, which is honestly my favorite topic ever, but I do want to give these shout outs so we got to five star reviews on iTunes. One from Justine. She says, ‘I've been wanting to listen to your podcasts since you launched. I finally got a chance to listen to episode one and I was blown away. The whole episode was gold. Thanks for doing this.’Thank you, Justine. I know who you are, Justine, and I'm so happy to hear from you and we so appreciate your awesome review, and then we have one more from Heather, and she says, 'Thank you Kendra and Christine, you have already made my life as a healthpreneur so much easier. I've learned so many actual tips and tricks that I feel confident with my business to grow to the next level. Your guests are top notch and exactly what I need to up level my confidence and take action. Already a huge supporter and fan. Keep up the great work. Thank you for sharing so freely.'Ooph.
Christine: Woohoo, I absolutely love it.
Kendra: That one feels good. I just feel all like warm and fuzzy.
Christine: Oh tearing up. No, it's amazing. Thank you so, so much. And all of you guys out there, please, please, please, we read these, you know, we have a happy dance each time we see those. So absolutely would appreciate it if you head over to iTunes and just leave that little five-star review and then just know that there's two people doing a happy dance just for you, so.
Kendra: Every time.
Christine: All right, before we're going to geek out, we are mixing Biz and business education. So today we're going to have a tool of the day and we're going to talk about RocketLinks so you can find them at rocketlink.io and if you go to our website, the 360healthbizpodcast.com, and you download our free tool guide, then you will find a link in there as well. And here is why RocketLink is absolutely fantastic. So as you hopefully know that is that Facebook is, for example, great to target people and to show them ads of what you do. Now the easiest thing to do is if you target people who are actually interested in you, so the more interested they are, the more engaged they are, the lower you pay as in price because Facebook says, Ooh, this person actually talks to people who like it, we get more engagement, people love Facebook again, so we're going to drop the price for the advertiser. Now the easiest way is when people have been what we call pixels by Facebook, which means that they have engaged with you, they've been tagged, so that when you tell Facebook who you want to talk to, when you do your ad, Facebook already knows, okay, all of these people, so engagement is better and cost is lower. Now the problem with that though, not necessarily problem, but you are limited because either these people have interests, interacted with you via Facebook on the platform, so that could happen via video, via post, a comment, checking out page and liking it, or you have installed the pixel on your website. So if someone goes to your website, the pixel tags them if they have a Facebook account and that way you can target them when you run your ads. But for everything else your pixel is pretty much useless. So let's say someone finds you on Pinterest, they will not be tagged because that's not how, Facebook doesn't have a place there to put a pixel on, which is basically this little sticker, you can imagine it like a sticker that's going to be put on you. So what RocketLink does is, that everyone who clicks on a link that is via RocketLink is going to be tagged via your Facebook pixel. So let's say you write a blog post, you have the URL for me, it might be sleeplikeaboss.com/howtosleepwell and I will go to RocketLink, I will give them the link and they will transform it into a shorter link or one you can actually have your branding, so you have your particular RocketLink link that leads to your blog post and then I might go to LinkedIn and I share that link there and when people click on it, even though they are not on my website at that point, they will get pixeled or if you have it on Instagram or if you have it on Google+ or on Twitter, then people might even go and be led to a different site, which is not your own site, it could be a other article that you found somewhere and they would get pixeled, which is absolutely fantastic because not everyone is going to go to your website, right? So you can take third party articles and still have people be tagged with your pixel, which is pretty fantastic, right. So the example of my own blog was not the best actually because if they come to my website they would be pixeled anyway, but I could for example, make something super amazing, which I could then share on LinkedIn for example. People would click on that and even though they would go to Kendra's site, they would also be pixeled for me so I could show them ads on Facebook, which is pretty cool.
Christine: Does that make sense?
Kendra: Yeah, that makes total sense. That's awesome. So basically I can target anyone, even if I'm not sending them to my website or my stuff, I could be like, hey, like Christine Hanson's a sleep, sleep expert, she did this awesome video and then I can pixel them. That's crazy. I don't know why I'm not using this.
Christine: Yeah, because you can Kendra. I'm sharing stuff.
Kendra: That's first thing I'm going to do, that's pretty awesome.
Christine: But yeah, it's pretty fantastic, because then you could show them an ad and say, look, I know that you are interested in sleep. You could obviously work with this Christine, but I also help you with stuff like that, you know. So that would be fantastic, maybe no poaching clients from each other, that might not be the best example. But let's say I write an article on the Huffington Post, that I want to share on a platform that's not Facebook, and I know that the people going to be interested in an article will be interested in my services, then I would share that article with RocketLink and then I would target them on Facebook, which is a little bit creepy because people will say, how did she know I never checked her out on Facebook or on our website, but that's how dear people.
Kendra: Wow, that's very cool. Yeah, creepy from maybe a lay person perspective, but from an online marketer's perspective, that gives me tingles all over.
Christine: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Plus, it's cheaper because the people are already interested, you know, so it's going to give your ad a better ranking and lower cost, and that's what we're all about. So you can find all the info in our toolbox, which is for free on our website. So I head over there right now and download that. And with that we're going to start with our hot and steamy topic, which is poop. And everyone who is a little bit into how, will know that poop is amazing when it comes to helping figuring out what's going on with your health. And so let's take a look. And our first question is basically why is the gut important regardless of your niche? So Kendra I do different things, but both of us are absolutely poop enthusiast, fans, put it that way. I don't know the word know, but never mind and let's say, because the reason is that poop gives you such a beautiful and I don't know how to talk inside.
Christine: And, yeah. So Kendra let's see. What is your number one reason why you adore having poop in the conversation when you talk with your clients?
Kendra: That is a great question. And the reason for that is just because like the gut is this massive system and it's the way that we digest. We absorb, we break down our food which eventually gets turned into minerals, into vitamins into all these things that we need for our body to run properly. So when people have symptoms, when their body's not working, you're going to find that the root of it might be in their digestive system and pretty much know I've worked with people with all kinds of issues, hormones, mental health issues, deficiencies, inflammation, autoimmune conditions, acne, skin health, all those things. And when we do gut testing, I mean I always see that there is a mess and when we clean up the gut, a lot of those symptoms will start to go away and you know, just to give it some perspective, like with hormones, like hormones are made, broken down, upregulated, downregulated and detoxified in the gut. So if there's hormonal issues, there's going to be gut issues. Same goes for neurotransmitter's. A lot of those are made in the gut. So if there's mental health issues, there's going to be gut issues. If there's inflammation, the gut is a massive source of inflammation. Autoimmune conditions are often triggered by infections. So, in the gut. So we really, I think regardless of who you're working with, whether regardless of your niche, if you're helping people with acne versus hormonal balance versus sleep, you do need to address what's going on in the gut or you might just be spinning your wheels and you may not actually get anywhere with that client and be able to help them.
Christine: Absolutely. And it's one of the first questions that I ask and I ask it kind of subtly way because people don't expect me to ask that when I talk about sleep, right. So they would go, well I get up at that time, that's my bedtime routine, and when I asked them about the bowel movements, they're just like, why would that be? Yeah, you're weird, you know, why do you want to know when I go to the toilet, you know, kind of have to explain it to them that the gut and the brain are literally connected you know, that there's the vagus nerve that goes from one to the other and that when that have information that creates a stress hormone. [inaudible] we do that. Then finally it makes sense, but it's up to us ask them about it and so it's absolutely true what Kendra said, whether you like me like sleep or whether you want to focus on skincare or whether you want to focus on hair loss, you have to look at the guide to make sure that it's in tip top shape because anything you will do from nutritionists, to supplementation, to even stress management, is not most likely not going to be [inaudible] in again. So we're actually going to talk a little bit about what we do, and also what we find are the biggest mistakes practitioners make when addressing the gut health in their client's. And I touched on it a little bit because, [inaudible] one of the first thing that comes up in a protocol is diet, right, and it all make sense because whatever you eat is going to go through the gut. So it does absolutely make sense to adjust [inaudible] and everything. And I totally agree. Absolutely agree. I think it's key building stone, but it's just not enough in our experience, right?
Kendra: Yeah, exactly. And I think, what I see a lot of practitioners do is they get people on these really restrictive diets, like long-term, but are really hard to follow and cause a lot of stress for people. And then that's all they do. So obviously you're right. Yep. Healthy whole foods diet, like free of additives, toxins, you know, allergens, yes you have to do that. But if that's all you do and you just get people on these really strict, like, you know, elimination diets for the long term, it may help, but it's probably not going to actually heal the gut, because I find, you know, if people's food sensitivities often go beyond just like, you know, the, the main offenders, like the processed and crap food, you'll find that sometimes people are having sensitivities to seemingly healthy foods. They're reacting to fruits and vegetables and meat or whatever. And that's not necessarily the cause of their gut issue. That's probably a symptom. And that's typically what it is. It's because the gut is broken down. They're lacking enzymes. The microbiome is a mess. They don't have hydrochloric acid in their stomach at a healthy enough level to break down protein, so all these undigested food is causing issues in their system and that's a symptom. So just pulling out the food sensitivities and getting those out of the system, sure it'll help reduce inflammation, but it may not actually correct the issue, especially when the main issue of their gut issues may actually be related to a bacterial imbalance, a dysbiosis or even an infection. Right?
Christine: Or parasites, the other. So, and those, that's why we a huge fans of testing just to make sure that we don't miss anything. The other thing is too, like if you use a diet that can be shaking, you know, losing any kinds of toxins, you need to be absolutely sure. First of all, that your client is also able to detoxify that so that the liver is actually in tip top shape and that they can absorb or make sure that they don't absorb whatever is going to be, you know, suddenly floating around. So I think it's, you know, having all these diets, especially detox diets and so forth, it's can be actually pretty dangerous. So really make sure that you do the prep work first, making sure that your client is actually up to speed or in shape enough to handle a diet like that too, right. So that's why I do like diets, but I don't do, make them too restrictive and I make sure that actually know what's going on in there. And so Kendra was already talking a little bit about this in microbiome and dysbiosis, and so people usually when I tell them well you probably, you might have parasites just because you see it in half of my clients and dysbiosis, I see pretty much everyone. They are pretty shocked. They're like, why? You know, I'm a clean person, I'm taking a shower every day and it's okay. So let's talk a little bit about why these gut issues might even happen in the first place, because it's just so difficult to imagine. It's this intestinal thing inside of you. It's seems well protected by several layers of skin, maybe fat. All cozy in there. So how can they actually get issues in this? So let's talk maybe about one of the first one of gut infections then is more Kendra's territory, and that is low stomach acid, and I think that's really your kind of stuff. So tell us a little bit about low stomach acid.
Kendra: Yeah. And before I get into that, I just want to just address something you said like that's definitely the biggest thing is that people are like, don't understand how they could have gotten these things and they think that they need to be traveling to a developing country or have really poor hygiene. But I think what people don't realize is we're ingesting thousands, if not millions of organisms on a daily basis through the food we eat through the air we breathe, the water we drink, like these things are everywhere and that's not a, that's not the issue. Like our bodies should be equipped to deal with a lot of these things. And our first line of defense is the stomach acid. So that's one of the main reasons people end up with infections is because they don't have a very acidic environment in the stomach or they actually lack the ability to produce stomach acid appropriately. So you want to have an acidic environment in the stomach because it kills off microorganisms. So it prevents those things from even getting lower into the GI tract. But there's a lot of things that could be going on that could be preventing you from producing stomach acid in proper amounts. The first two things that reduce stomach acid or stress and alcohol, right? Who's not stressed, who doesn't like to go out and get sauced on the weekend, right? Like a lot of us, we were in a big drinking alcohol consuming society, right? That will lower your stomach acid as well. Stress, right? Like these two things are everyday experiences, right? For most people. So that's probably some of the biggest ones. Proton pump inhibitors are antacids. You know, people have taken antacids because they're having heartburn. They think they have too much acid, but in a lot of cases it's actually they don't have enough acid, and that will suppress the acid issues further, and then there's a few that people don't know about very much at least I don't hear a lot of practitioners talking about them. One is hyperthyroid. Anything that reduces the metabolism is going to reduce the output of the stomach acid. Thyroid issues are pretty much like a pandemic in women days. Like I rarely meet a woman who doesn't have some sort of either primary thyroid issue or subclinical thyroid issue, and then the other two are copper toxicity and this is again, incredibly common in women. Most women I work with, me to.
Christine: Me included.
Kendra: Most women I work with have copper toxicity. A lot of what I do is addressing the copper imbalance piece and what copper does is it actually lowers zinc and you need zinc to make stomach acid, so a zinc deficiency will lead to low stomach acid as will low sodium, which I think a lot of people are scared of sodium, we've been fear mongered about sodium, but actually 80% of the population has low sodium. That can be caused by copper toxicity, that can also be caused by stress, by dehydration, but sodium is a very, very important part of hydrochloric acid. So any of these imbalances are going to lead to that low stomach acid production. So that means now that you're ingesting these organisms, your body doesn't have its first line of defense to prevent them from getting lower into the GI tract.
Christine: Yeah. And then once they are there, you have a completely different kind of problem to deal with. Right? So, one of the first being that, you know, we talked about first line of descent, first line of defense being hydrochloric acid, but then you have your main immune system just underneath your gut layering. So if you imagine the different layers, the immune system is just below. So you can imagine that if that lining is basically compromise that your immune system is going to be flared up and you have tons and tons of complications, and that's where you get autoimmune diseases from because your immune system, somebody gets triggered like a crazy person. Lots of confusion happens. Our body is super, super smart, but it's not necessarily done or equipped for dealing with constant stress situations, so just creating a huge, huge, huge ton of chaos and it can take a lot of time to clean everything up again. I think having understanding that, that the gut and the immune system is so, so closely related is absolutely key. So you need to ask your client first of all, how they feel, what the digestion is like, constipation, bloated, diarrhea, all of that jazz. And then I find that, you know, very often like thyroid issues, it is an auto immune condition. You know, you find that there's a lot of connection or they would suddenly tell you, actually I have fibromyalgia or another autoimmune disease. So I often find that that comes together. And then last thing obviously that we're going to talk about because it's the big, big topic and it has been a huge topic in the last decade I would say is, gluten, right? So usually, and I'm sure when your health practitioner you have had that too, when you talk about gluten, people are like, oh, it's just a hype. [inaudible] hype, it just drives me nuts, right. The earth was flat too at some point. It doesn't mean that now it's right way around. That, that's a hype, right? So it's just ridiculous. But. So let's go a little bit through why gluten is a big topic, and I love that you said before, in an ideal situation you are super healthy and your body is totally equipped to deal with all kinds of stressors including gluten. So if you super healthy, eating gluten from time to time is not going to be a problem. However, if you have the stress load that we usually have, plus already something compromised, then gluten becomes a problem because it is not meant to be digested. It can't, and it's just literally going to punch holes in your intestinal lining. So Kendra, I think you can talk about this a little bit more scientifically and Geeky than I can, but that's basically how I explain it a lot of the time.
Kendra: Yeah, and I think, I think that's true. I think, you know, maybe back in the day when gluten was a different molecule than what it is today, people probably didn't have an issue tolerating it, but I know, and I'm going to get this, like my facts on this are going to be a little bit off, but I believe it used to be like a four or five chain molecule and now it's like a 70 something chain molecule, like it's been hybridized and you know, changed over time. And so now it's like that gluten component, that stickiness is much more. And so it's not really the same thing. It's not like we're eating the same wheat that Jesus was eating, you know, that's just not the case. We're eating something very different. And so it is very hard to digest and there has been research that has shown that ingesting gluten actually stimulate Zonulin. Zonulin is the protein that opens those tight junctions in the gut, that basically protect your GI tract from your bloodstream. So that may be that you eat gluten and then now things are leaking into your bloodstream. The other thing that I find really interesting is that farmers will actually dump round up, I’m sorry, roundup, which is glyphosate, which is a really, really toxic chemical that is put on crops. They actually dump glyphosate onto wheat, I think a few days before or a couple of weeks or a few days before harvest because it actually increases the yield. So, you know, it kind of begs the question like, are people actually reacting to gluten? Are they reacting to roundup, to glyphosate? So this toxin that has been shown time and time and again in research to destroy the gut, because what glyphosate does to organisms is it explodes their stomachs, that's what it does to bugs. So That's interesting, right?
Kendra: Like what's it doing in humans if it has the ability to do that insects. So I think there's that piece as well. And so I'm definitely not in the camp that I think people, everyone's gluten intolerant and they're going to be gluten intolerant for the rest of their lives. But I think if you have gut issues, it didn't just happen, it’s been going on for a long time. By the time you have those symptoms of the gut, like the gut been healthy for months, years, even decades. So at that point your body has probably lost his ability to break down something like gluten, which is already difficult to digest for the average person.
Christine: Yeah, I totally agree with that. So I'm not sure about the roundup thing. I think it's not helping, imagining stomachs being blown up even as tiny as they might be, but we don't have the same one in Europe so. But still people react to it. So I think it is a huge contributor, it makes it even worse, but it probably not the only thing, but it's exactly as you say, if you were healthy it would be okay in a way, but because we are already so stressed and because stress is breaking down your intestinal lining, it's just adding to, you know, it's like oxygen fueling the fire, basically. And the other thing is, you know, people might believe in it or not, but whenever I tell people not to eat gluten, just to try it for at least three weeks, the difference is massive. Like you don't necessarily notice it when you don't eat it, but you do notice it as soon as they put it back into your diet and that's just. I had a client two weeks ago and she came back, I had never thought that nutrition would have to do anything with my energy levels, but I really now know my body, like I understand what my body likes to eat when it doesn't, that doesn't mean that, she eats it like she's like when I'm invited or when we have a fancy dinner, I will relish that pasta with gluten. I just know that I have to be close to bathroom, and I'm like good on you. But I mean it's, you know, that's the 80/20 rule, which I think is like 80% of the time we tried to do your best and 20% of the time it just screw it and you just go with it as long as that's, you know, as long as it's not doing anything severe, severe. I, I completely live by that rule. So. And that's what she said, you know, I didn't know. I just had no idea how my body was reacting to it and I think a lot of people should just do that experiment and see and I think that's, three weeks is something that everyone can do and if you do. So, I always suggested you tell your people exactly what they can eat rather than tell them, just make sure that you don't eat gluten, because that's so frustrating. Whereas when you them what to eat...
Kendra: People don't understand what gluten is in.
Christine: No. So when you can tell them what they eat instead, then it's much easier, because then they will go shopping and they will look for the stuff that you tell them they can eat, which is much more positive than having to look at everything and see what can I, what can't I eat, right. So it's just a mindset thing a little bit.
Kendra: Yeah. And I totally agree with that. Like it's the one thing I can sort of pull from someone's diet where they will notice a benefit. But what's, what's interesting about gluten is that, if you are reacting to, and if your body is building antibodies towards it, any exposure to gluten will keep those antibodies elevated for up to six months.
Kendra: So if your person is gluten intolerant, like an 80/20 world may not work for some people, it's a problem. For people who are reacting to gluten, I mean, they just need to avoid it because I've seen people react, their antibodies be elevated on passing from gluten and they weren't even eating it. They were just maybe cross reacting from a cutting board that they were sharing with their husband or cheering cookware or maybe that gluten was in their shampoo. Even stuff like that. For people who are really sensitive, it's going to be a big deal.
Christine: Yeah. No, you need to know. You need to know. And that's also why we have our next topic, which is why testing is necessary to heal the gut. Like you could say, I'm just going to avoid gluten. I'm just going to have an anti-candida diet, for example. But for us, testing is always a super crucial step because we want to know what kind of infections are there and why. So Kendra maybe you can tell us a little bit about why just having, let's say if you have candida, just having the kidney diet it might not be enough and why testing is so important and also you know, inflammation and so forth. Why you need to know what exactly is going on in there? Yeah.
Kendra: Yeah. And actually I have a few things to say on the candida thing because it's actually kind of drives me crazy. Like I feel like candida, such a hot topic, it's like a trendy word and everyone thinks they have candida and they go online and they look at the symptoms and they self-diagnose themselves. Okay. I've got candida overgrowth. But the thing is, is like those symptoms for candida are the exact same for any other type of infection. So what you actually might be dealing with might not be candida at all. And then you go on this three weeks, candida diet and you're like okay, [inaudible] but yeast. But also other infections, like they're very opportunistic and they're very good at adapting. So if you starve, going super low sugar, low carb candida diet, that yeast might just start eating protein or fat, like they will just eat what they can. So, you know, a three-week candida diet isn't going to do it. And then if you do in fact have candida or yeast these infections are often secondary. So for example, candida lives naturally in the large intestines. It should be there, if it's overgrowing, the question is why, why is it overgrowing? It is because it can. So typically there is going to be another infection and diet isn't enough to make infection go away because they will just adapt. They will eat ketones, they will eat protein, they will eat whatever the hell they need to eat to survive, and they will just keep on living. And so the reason we like testing is because you want to know what you're dealing with, because depending on the type of infection you have, that might 100% effect the treatment protocol for your client. You know, for example, if they have H. pylori, that's going to be a completely different course of treatment versus if they have a parasite like blastocystis hominis or if they have a bacterial infection like c diff or if they actually have candida, like those are actually all different protocols and your client also might have all of those things. It's not just an exclusive thing, they're not mutually exclusive.
Kendra: Like, and I see some of these panels that are completely lit up and people have parasites, bacteria, yeast, C. diff, H. pylori, and viruses and you're like, okay, it's gonna take us a year just to get through these protocols. Right? And I think, you know, with infections, especially like I have a lot of, a lot of people come to me after working with other practitioners who weren't able to help them. So this is a big reason why me and Christine are so passionate about helping you as a practitioner because people are not getting treated properly and they're going to other practitioners. So I, you know, I don't want you to have that experience, but a lot of practitioners will be like, okay, let's do this three-week parasite cleanse, let's do this, you know, four week thing and it may not be enough time. You know, certain you want to do on average two life cycles of that infection.
Kendra: Typically, it's going to be about 60 days, sometimes it's actually going to be longer, right?
Christine: Yeah. I find 60, 90 days is usually like when I have them order supplements. So anything like that I usually take, take the biggest spot available and it's just do that, you know.
Kendra: Yeah, totally. And so...
Christine: Least 60 days.
Kendra: At least. Yeah. And so you got do these longer infection, these longer protocols. And the thing is, is, and this is again why testing is so important, you may not clear that infection in a client after the first round of treatment. Some things are very stubborn. They might actually adapt to your treatment protocol.
Kendra: So you need to retest, follow up and see if that infection is still there. And then this one really throws people off, sometimes on a retest, what you'll see is a whole new set of infections.
Christine: Yes, it's because you killed off, kind of the first line of defense, right. And suddenly everything is just like free in there, and it's just like, whoa, whoa, we kind of exposed here and we're kind of fighting for our lives and that's when they get detected best on these tests. You know, tests are great. They don't always pick up everything though, especially if you have a biofilm and that wasn't treated and advanced and it's tricky. So when you start treating, have the protocol, then everything starts to get basically released and it's like a whole mess in there. So yeah, I see that a lot too.
Kendra: Yeah. And I love that you just brought up biofilm because that's probably the primary reason why people are unable to get rid of their infections, because their practice share is not recommending a biofilm disruptor. And if you don't know what the heck we're talking about, you can think of it like Saran wrap or plastic wrap. It's this thin kind of translucent polysaccharide carbohydrate matrix that bacteria produce or parasites or yeast, back on your teeth is a biofilm, and they use it as this physical barrier, right? They kind of hide under it. And I've read that a bacteria hiding under a biofilm can resist antibiotics up to 2000 times versus something that's exposed. So you could be hitting it with herbs, but it's like under this biofilm and then even...
Christine: Even with antibiotics, like you could even go through a round of antibiotics that is destroying everything living in there, but afterwards, when everything is eradicated and your natural police, as in probiotics has gone, then they're still there, you know, happy dancing underneath their biofilm. So you [inaudible].
Kendra: You've just killed all their competition.
Christine: Yeah, and it's like hurray!
Kendra: Yeah. And the other, this is really creepy and I love, I love this, I love creepy things, but like the, they also use the biofilm as like a communication network. So they like talked to each other through it and they help each other adapt. So you need to break down a biofilm. So this is going to be a carbohydrate specific enzyme. Something like proteolytic enzymes, Interfase Plus is a product I use a lot, certain herb's will do it, N-acetyl cysteine on an empty stomach, like you need to give them something that's going to break that down, but this is also what can cause a lot of die off in your clients, right? Because within that biofilm are these infections, but also chemicals, toxins, heavy metals, a lot of stuff can get released on the biofilm. So.
Christine: Clean it up.
Christine: Yeah. I find that to you. And I usually talk about warfare when I talk to my clients.
Christine: Break their defense. We're going to hit their shield. Then when there exposed we're going to come in with first batch, first cavalry, then we're going to come with the second team and we're going to fight them off, and help the probiotics, it's like a whole warfare kind of strategy session. But yeah, that's basically what it is. Aright, perfect. So let me just skip them. Ooh, juicy one. So we're going to talk, and here Kendra has to take over again because I have to say that's not my expertise, but I love the question, can you identify infections via blood chemistry?
Kendra: Woo, juicy question. So the answer is you can't identify specific infections, you do need a stool test to do that, but you can look at blood chemistry markers from a functional perspective. If you look at the conventional ranges you may not see it, but that can actually indicate that someone might have infections and they might need to do stool testing. So, the first thing you look at is the, the complete blood count or the CBC, if they have, say, lower high white blood cell count, if they have higher low neutrophils, low lymphocytes, high monocytes, or high eosinophils or basophils, if those are out of range that can actually indicate bacterial infections, viral infections, especially the eosinophils. Typically, if those are out of range when they're high, that actually indicates intestinal parasites. So you don't know what parasite they have, which you still do want to know because certain parasites need different treatment protocols. But that can actually, when you start seeing imbalances in the, the complete blood count, that's when you're like, okay, like something.
Kendra: Something might be going on here, the immune system.
Christine: Yeah, and it's like a mock that's usually not really valued.
Christine: Like traditional, like Western medicine. It's usually something that's on there but nobody really looks at it. So it's interesting when you look at it from this perspective.
Kendra: Yeah, and you see you want to be looking at it, the functional range. So I did put together a Freebie for this episode where I'm going to give you a little handbook and I'm actually going to tell you the markers and what ranges you want to look at to give you this indication, and this is really cool because even if you're a health coach, maybe you don't have the ability to order some of these functional tests, you can get blood work from your clients like they are already going to have that done in most cases they will have done it through their doctors through their naturopath. You can in, the US, you can send people to quest or direct labs and they can order their own blood work. I don't know if you can do that in Europe, Christine, but you can definitely do it in the US.
Christine: I think so, you probably, I think you can always do it, but it's going to be pretty expensive, but usually you don't have to, your GP will always say yes, like if you asked for, I don't know any GP would say, no.
Kendra: Oh wow, I have to fight for it in Canada. Like I have to go in there and trick them. I'm like, oh, like I'm really cold and my hair's falling out.
Christine: You’re kidding me.
Kendra: And I'm fatigued, and I'm gaining weight, and they're like, oh, thyroid. I'm like, really? Oh my gosh, should we do thyroid testing?
Christine: You crack me up. Kendra you little minx.
Kendra: Yeah. Well it's, you know, when the government, the government pays for everything here, right? Our whole medical system is paid for the government, so they don't want to pay for anything, so you always have to really push it. But anyways, I digress.
Christine: Yeah, [inaudible] that's ok.
Kendra: So the other, this is actually a really interesting marker, and a lot of people don't know this, but high fasting glucose. So that's your blood sugar marker. And if you, I mean, so if you have a client who eats really healthy, maybe they're eating like a Paleo Diet and they're getting sleep and they're reducing stress and they're living a very healthy lifestyle, yet they still have high fasting glucose that is typically going to indicate an infection because sometimes it is of benefit, and I'm not going to go too deep into this because there's a whole other topic, but sometimes the body will make you insulin resistance on purpose because there's an infection and there was a lot of benefit that the body can get from that. So you know, you see this high fasting glucose or maybe your client has diabetes or metabolic syndrome and you're trying to give them herbs to help lower their blood sugar or increase insulin sensitivity. But actually you're fighting against what the body is trying to do on purpose. So typically you need to look for infections when there's high fasting glucose. The other one, there's a couple more I want to mention. So high ferritin alongside low serum iron levels. So iron gives us energy, but it also gives energy to infections. Parasites love iron, so ferritin is the storage form of iron, so sometimes the body is like,'Oh God, there's infections we need to starve them.’It'll start pushing iron into ferritin, into storage to sequester it from the infection, and then you're gonna end up with low serum iron levels and then of course your doctor's going to give you an iron supplement and it's not going to make you feel better and it's not going to help because you're just going to feed the infection.
Kendra: So, that's an interesting one. Elevated thyroid antibodies can tell you about that because typically thyroid issues are triggered by infections, so if there's an autoimmune process, there may be each H. pylori, there may be blastocystis, hominis. Those are really common with thyroid autoimmunity, and then finally high cholesterol and high triglycerides. Those can actually indicate H. pylori, which is a stomach infection, and also a primary cause of low stomach acid. So bringing it full circle.
Christine: Yep, this is golden, and don't forget that you get this [inaudible]...
Kendra: So that me on my soapbox [inaudible].
Christine: It's amazing. Like I'm, my mind is the way to get cheat stuff actually because I need that when I look at my client’s blood tests that you can be like, oh... No, it's definitely a weak spot of mine. I've never really done any education on that in particular, but I find it's just, I feel so useless when I look at those lab tests, you know. So this is going to be super helpful.
Christine: All right, so testing as you've heard, we are huge fans. So when you do look at stool testing, which is, you know, in itself fun, there are different kinds of stool testing I think Kendra and I we both do, usually the same one, which is GI-map, but just to make sure that you know, what the differences are. So have PCR and we have DNA, right? So those are the two main ones that you can use. I only use one of them, so I'm not even sure what the other one does.
Kendra: PCR and DNA are the same test. A DNA test uses PCR, which is called polymerase chain reaction, which identifies the microscopic DNA of pathogens. And then the other one is the traditional stool test, which is microscopy.
Christine: Oh God.
Kendra: Come on Christine.
Christine: Sorry, that was just like a very honest reaction. I'm like, what?
Kendra: So yeah. And they're like apples and oranges. So you actually can't, you don't get the same results from each of these tasks. And this is really important to understand. So typically if your clients come to you and they'd done a stool test most of the time, unless it's the GI-map or the DRG lab, I don't think there's, I don't, I'm not aware of what other companies are doing PCR testing, those are the most popular. Definitely the GI-map, but typically they're going to have done a microscopy test, which basically means that the stool goes to a lab. There's a lab tech looking through a microscope and trying to see what grows in a petri dish after 24 hours. So in order for you to get a positive result from a microscopy test, it needs to be alive so it can be grown and it needs to be present in large enough amounts to grow. So very good at picking up certain things, but the issue is not all infections thrive or survive outside of the body. They actually are anaerobic. So they need to be in an oxygen free environment to survive. Yeast is one of these, so typically you don't always see yeast on a microscopy test if you do, it means it's pretty bad, but a lot of these things will sort of self-destruct once they evacuate the body. So they're never going to be found on the microscopy tests because they can't culture it. And then you also need to have pretty abundant amounts of that organism showing up hopefully on the day that you actually took the stool test. So you are doing a microscopy past, you want to do a three or four day collection where you're collecting stool three to four days because they may not show up in large amounts every day. So, it is a good type of test for certain things, but it can miss a lot of things because there are a ton of infections you could have that or anaerobic, but also ones that might be there in smaller amounts and just don't get cultured. So...
Kendra: I used to run a traditional stool tests and I definitely had situations where I've had clients who had IVS and autoimmune conditions and a lot of GI issues, but their, their test was actually clean. I actually had the same situation myself. My original microscopy tests had infections. My retests was actually pretty clean. There wasn't really much on there. And then when I ran a GI-map, oh my God, it was a freaken disaster. I had one of the worst GI-map stool test I've ever seen. And so with, so with the PCR and DNA test, it actually takes the human component out. There's no lab tech. There's just a machine and the machine is, has a list of the DNA structures of these various organisms. It's more sensitive, but something to keep in mind is if the infection that you have is not on their list, that the machine is searching for...
Christine: It's not going to pick it up.
Kendra: Exactly. It's not going to pick it up. Versus the microscopy tasks can find anything that grows. So, you know, I would say in an ideal world with your client who is a millionaire and doesn't care about money, you would run both because then you'll get a really good picture. But that's, I mean, a lot of our clients don't want to run two stool test. I mean that's going to run them probably over a thousand dollars if not more.
Christine: Yeah, they are pretty expensive.
Kendra: Yeah. So that's why I actually do prefer the DNA, PCR test and that's the GI-map that you mentioned.
Christine: And I also find like, first of all, the GI, I did run the traditional one on myself, which is like, first of all, you need to be able to poop four days in a row, which for some people it's just impossible. I have a client who only poops twice every month, twice a month, every two weeks
Kendra: Oh Jesus.
Christine: Now we're on once a week. So we're super psyched. But yeah. So for her it would be absolutely impossible to do that.
Christine: The other thing is that even if your PCR test doesn't pick up on everything, you would have so many different markers that will give you an indication that there's still something going on. So your, Escherichia Coli might be high, so you know, that's usually that goes hand in hand with having an infection. So even if it's not picking up on exactly the one that is on the list, seeing that and for example, marker that indicates that there's leaky gut plus having, you know, your immune system fared up, I will go and do an antibacterial protocol or even anti parasite protocol anyway, just for good measure.
Christine: So just make sure if there's something there, it's not going to hurt you in any case, right. So when I have a feeling that there's still something going on and I have different markers pointing to a set direction, I was still implement a protocol.
Kendra: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean I love the GI-map because there's so many different types of infections. I mean it has a huge list of bacterial pathogens. It has tons of parasites on there. It has yeast, has a bunch of different strains of yeast, so not just candida. There's a few other strains. There are worms on there, worms were just added to the protocol, there's viruses, and then they have all their GI markers. So you can look at enzyme production, you can look at fat absorption, you can look at enzymes that cause estrogen dominance. You can look at the immune system, you can look at gluten intolerance, you can also look at leaky gut and inflammation. So there's just a ton going on, on this test. I would call it the Cadillac of gut testing.
Christine: Where I order it is around 300 pounds, maybe 310 pounds, which is like 500 bucks I would probably say, or maybe a little bit more, 600, 500, but I find it's really well worth it. And depending on where you want, again, you can cover, get it covered by insurance, so.
Kendra: Yeah, some people with good insurance in the states, like obviously if you're in Canada you're not going to get covered. But some of my American clients who have good insurance, will get it covered. They can submit it to insurance, which is great. [inaudible] GI-map. I just want to let you know, in order to order it directly from the lab, like you do need to be a licensed practitioner. Me and Christine are not licensed, but we get it because we took the FDN course which we love and that gives us access to that. So if you're thinking about taking the course, do it, we'll put the link in the show notes because it's a great course and it has given us the ability to order pretty much whatever we want in terms of lab testing, right?
Kendra: It's like you can also form a relationship, right? You can form a relationship with a doctor, with someone who is licensed, like an ND, naturopathic doctor and acupuncturist. They'll probably charge you a fee to order it, but you can typically get it through them or if, you can always contact us, we can also hook you up [inaudible] test with their clients. I do practitioner mentoring. So I train, I train a lot of people in understanding this test, how to interpret it, and what protocols that you should actually be putting in, depending on what you see.
Christine: Yeah, that's what I do with my mentees too. Like when I have someone, I mentor a couple of people in sleep coaching and I will, I always teach them that, and the Dutch as well.
Kendra: Awesome. Love it.
Christine: Alright, so I think we've covered pretty much everything. I think so. Yes. Kendra has put together an amazing guide. So she has a free GI-map interpretation guide, plus you have the blood serum free gift. So this is just like Christmas come early, we're in September. Just about today. This is going to be, I mean October, but it's literally like Christmas come early. Pretty much exciting. So if you went to say a thank you for all of this, then don't forget to leave us an iTunes review. And also we have the poopily magnet which is our gift [inaudible]. But if you think this is awesome, it's going to save you so much money. Just looking at it course like this would be a couple of thousand bucks easily. You can leave us a little thank you note on Patreon where you are a fan of ours as a buck a month, I believe. So if you want to do that then go to our website. You have a huge red button at the bottom where you can support us and what we do. And I think that is pretty much it for this episode. Did I forget anything?
Kendra: Nope. I think that's everything. And so, I hope that was, I hope you guys love Poop as much as we do. We definitely love talking about this topic. Let us know. Let us know in our Facebook group, tag us on Instagram, LinkedIn, wherever we are, and just let us know what you want to learn about. If you want to learn more about poop, if you want to go deeper into the GI-map, if you want to talk about SIBO, like we definitely take requests.
Christine: Yes, absolutely. We're like your health practitioner jukebox. So, so this has been wonderful, Kendra. I've been learning so much actually. She's like the guru out there. [inaudible] No, it's been super fascinating, but what I can tell you is that you will change client's life. The reactions and improvements will come pretty quickly once a cleanup their gut, and it's not just the ones that put their focus on, they came to you, but their whole life is going to change, their energy levels, their weight loss, everything is just going to fall into place when you look at the gut. So, and at their poop. So it's, just, just do it.
Kendra: Just do it.
Christine: All right, well thank you so much guys. And we would see and hear and talk to each other in two weeks.
Tools mentioned in this episode:
Institute of Transformational Nutrition - Contact Chelsea if you want to speak with a previous student
Chelsea Gross is a Certified Transformational Nutrition Coach. She helps women break free from dieting, create a healthy relationship with food, and a live a life they love free from rules and obsession.
Her passion for wellness comes from her own struggle with health issues and a disordered relationship to food and her body for nearly a decade. In 2014 she was exhausted and unhappy and knew it was time to make a change - nourish herself from the inside out, and mend her relationship with food.
She went back to school to study the science of nutrition, the psychology of eating and mindset and created a unique coaching practice centered around empowerment, compassion and ultimately forgiving yourself which is the catalyst to breaking the cycle.
Chelsea uses the power of real food, mindset, and consistent support to help her clients gain true permanent change, confidence and clarity, and peace and calm around food.
Kendra: Hello hello everyone, welcome to another episode of the 360 health biz podcast. I'm Kendra Perry and I'm joined by my super sexy and extremely attractive co-host.
Christine: I didn't care to say that it's very true.
Kendra: It's very true. So we're pretty excited for today's episode. We have a great guest with us today. We have Chelsea Gross who is an old internet friend of mine I guess, and we're gonna be talking about what we think is a very important topic.
Chelsea specializes in disordered eating. She is a certified transformational nutrition coach, she helps women break free from dieting, create a healthy relationship with food and live a life they love free from rules and obsession. And so, I know Chelsea that you've had a lot of your kind of experience and maybe your passion with this comes from some of your own issues. I definitely stalked you on Instagram, so I know you post a lot of your personal struggle on that. So how did you get into this, like what made you decide to niche out in this sort of area?
Chelsea: Yeah. So I think I specialize in this 100% because this is my own personal story. So for as long as I can remember so you know, late teens all through my mid-to-late 20s, I really struggled with food, I struggled with hating my body, I was always on this endless quest to lose weight, and be thin, and you know push through hunger and hop in and out of the next-best diet that was gonna fix my life and make me happy.
In a lot of my self work in the last few years, as I've kind of gotten everything together and really broken free, I realized that my issues with disordered eating and hating my body and all of that stuff, stemmed from not liking who I was from a very very young age. So feeling really insecure being who I was. I struggled a lot with anxiety and that was just not accepted in my family, like it was something that I shouldn't be, and so early on I learned I shouldn't be who I am, I shouldn't be like this, I need to change myself, and I didn't feel loved, I didn't feel worthy I never felt good enough. So I think as I got older, food and controlling my weight and looking a certain way and getting attention and getting love, kind of shifted into like this obsession around food and around dieting. And you know this was like ten plus years ago, so no one was out there speaking about this kind of stuff.
The information that I was getting about being healthy was coming from shape magazine or women's health or like and you know, clip on the Today Show or something like that. And so, I really felt totally isolated in my struggles. My relationship with food really stemmed into a cycle that was restriction. So trying to lose weight, trying to starve myself, then I would end up binging at night and then for many many years I would end up purging and then I would beat myself up and then I try to course-correct it and fix it the next day.
So it was just this endless cycle and I was really ashamed of it, and I felt really really alone in what I was going through and so, I had a whole very very long health story that got me into going back to school for nutrition. I started dealing with chronic pain and it was something that I could no longer ignore, I had to work on myself, and that's when I realized, you know, I had a whole career change.
I was previously an actor living out in Los Angeles, which is probably the worst career you can have as someone who has insecurities in her body. But dealing with chronic pain was a really huge wake-up call and so at 27 I decided to go back to school, which is how Kendra and I met when I went to the Institute of Transformational Nutrition and I just stumbled across the program kind of randomly one day online, and again because four years ago health coaching was not. I found the program and I looked to the curriculum and I saw it had a huge focus on the psychology of eating, spirituality of nutrition, and I was so, I gravitated towards it immediately and I knew that it could help me with my own issues, and then would give me like a chance to go on and maybe, at the time I didn't know that it would become what it has become now. But I think I knew maybe deep down that this is something that could turn into like a purpose and a passion and a career.
So long story short with all of that, going to ITN like really changed my life because it brought me into community of people that have also gone through so many struggles, so whether it was dieting or eating disorders, food, their body, autoimmune disease, pain, you know you name it, we met those kinds of people and I finally felt less alone it gave me kind of my voice, it gave me the like the push and the drive to share my story and so I started slowly putting out there like all the stuff that I had been through, and you know, I had also overcome a lot of this which I left out that piece of the story, but ITN was a really big catalyst in my healing of my issues with food in my body and this yeah, doing a lot of self-work on myself too with all the other mental imbalances and things like that with the anxiety and like the insecurity and low self-esteem and all that stuff.
So basically I just started putting my story out there and I knew, if I had felt alone so many years ago then there were a lot of people out there that felt alone now, and I made peace with everything that I went through like those challenges and all those really low moments, because I knew it brought me to be able to share my story, connect with people, inspire people, and work with these women now one on one, and I just think my whole story was really just meant to be. So I chose this niche specifically to help who I was almost like seven or eight years ago, like that girl. So that was a roundabout way of explaining it, but I hope it makes sense.
Christine: No. I think it's a beautiful story, like I mean, how can you find more purpose and looking back at the previous year and kind of wanting to have that person.
Kendra: Yeah. I love that you're sharing that and I think it's a really amazing story and we talk about this too, how your own personal struggle can be a great marketing tool because it helps people not feel alone, helps people connect with you, and we were talking about before we hopped on the podcast, that this is such a common issue, like so many women are struggling with it and, why do you think that is? Like why do you think this has become such a huge issue with so many women in today's society?
Chelsea: Yeah, well I think now more than ever society puts pressure on us to be perfect, lose weight, to look thin, it's so glamorized, especially with social media and influencers and celebrities and we all know that social media is just someone's highlight reel, they're showing you what they want you to see. And they're posting when they feel their best and they're posting after a workout and they're talking about it and they're posting when they're on their diet or their transformation picture you know, celebrities just looking perfect but we don't realize what's really going on behind the scenes. A lot of people don't realize that people are just showing us their highlight reel, and so they're trying, they're striving to be something that doesn't even exist. You know perfection does not exist, yet we all are perfectionist, most of us are, especially the women I work with that deal with this stuff, deal with disordered eating. They're you know we're trying to meet this standard, putting this pressure on ourselves, it's not even real. But I think you know, like I talked about with my own story like it stems from something deeper.
So nine times out of ten it's not even about the food, like it's not even about your relationship to food, it's probably about some other imbalance in your body. So for me it was like not feeling good enough, like not liking who I was, feeling unfulfilled in my life, like I see this so many times in the clients that I work with will start out by their main issues, their main concerns being you know the dieting stuff and the disordered eating and then just a few sessions and it's like we're talking about something completely different, maybe they're unhappy in their job or their stress within their relationship or they be like a lack of motivation in their life or their unhappier you know. So it's always about something deeper and the other reason I think it's really common is because like I said, we glamorize the weight loss.
Chelsea: Someone may lose weight and you know, they may have an autoimmune disease, but someone will still complement them and be like, 'oh my gosh, what are you doing you look so good,' and it's like not. So we don't realize that losing weight doesn't always equate to being healthy, like we think that it does. And so people just put this extreme pressure on themselves, and they think that losing weight and like having the perfect body, will make them have the perfect life, and so it's just this whole like misunderstood cycle. But yeah, it's definitely like one of the biggest issues but I guess it's interesting too because at the same time while like unhealthy eating and chronic illness and obesity and diabetes and all that stuff is at its high, we're also struggling with people being underweight and over exercising.
Chelsea: Not eating and dieting constantly you know. So it's very polarizing and I think it's very confusing for people.
Christine: Not just for people but for us as health coaches.
Christine: Before we started, I think how do you, like let's see, if you have other health coaches, for example who get a client for a different reason. So I can imagine that a lot, well not a lot, but some of your target with probably not, they kind of know what's going on you know in a way but maybe not quite ready to face it, so they might have helped in a different area but as I health coach or as health practitioner, you're going to figure out pretty quickly what's going on right. So you were talking about these deeper emotional issues and I totally agree I mean that's like the root cause of this most of the time, how do you know whether you can still help and how do you know whether it's a time when you know with a coach certification for example you are not quite equiped enough? Because that's something that I would maybe struggle with, that the responsibility of going digging so deep, I would actually refer out. So maybe you can help us a little bit with that.
Chelsea: Yeah, I mean I think if you know this is something that you don't feel comfortable or confident enough to help people with that's a really important thing to know about yourself as a practitioner, as a coach, and these are really serious issues like I said, it yeah it's deeper than the food a lot of the time and we're not therapists and I never claimed to be a therapist. And I think if someone comes to you know just like to go back even to go to like basics of being a practitioner, having a form set up when people book their initial call with you that it asks the kind of questions that maybe would tip you off to see if you are a good fit or not or even when you have that free initial call with someone, like your consultation or discovery call, if you feel like while their issues are far beyond my scope or far beyond my expertise or like I feel like I could help this person but I still think maybe they'd be best suited with someone else, it's like feeling okay enough to yeah, to refer out or to you know suggests to them maybe the type of practitioner that they could work with or just still helping them so that you feel like you're not just like you know, shutting the door on them and leaving them alone, because obviously they're struggling, but yeah, I mean I think for me the messaging that I put out there and you know, like even you know, the statement of what I do like I specifically help people break free from dieting, create a healthy relationship with food, like people are drawn to me they know what I do they know I'm not someone who's just like gonna put them on a diet or give them a meal plan or you know.
So I think as long as you're really specific on who you help as a practitioner and that's all over your website and your branding and your social media, hopefully the right people will come your way and then you can just be clear enough on what you can help people with and if you do need to refer out, then that's okay. A lot of the time I work with people not hand in hand, meaning I'm working with the therapist like speaking with them and engaging but a lot of my clients also maybe have a therapist or another type of practitioner that they're working with. You know, and the type of work that I do I don't claim to like heal people's you know mental imbalances or things like that. I really speak to my clients like a friend, like I'm on their level like that was really important to me when I went out into my practice because I had so many experiences in my past where I felt like I was talked down to and like felt less than, felt misunderstood, like I'm the one with the problem. And so I know a lot of my clients gravitate towards me because they know because I'm so honest about my story they know, she's been through this and I weave that into all of our sessions like I'll say, they say something they're dealing, I'm like you know I dealt with that too, like I used to do that.
So yeah, so I don't want to feel like I'm like a therapist or that I'm claiming to you know help them with something that a therapist is better equipped to do. I'm just more there is like a non-judgmental safe space to kind of guide them through, like it's more of a partnership when we're working together versus like giving them a prescription and like this is what we're working on.
Kendra: Yeah. Do you ever have men?
Chelsea: I don't. I've never, yeah I've never worked with the man, I interestingly enough had two guys come to me in the last couple of months, which was kind of just surprising to me because I specifically say I help women. And I also don't think my type of, I mean the thing is, if a man is dealing with, because men deal with disordered eating and all this kind of stuff too. I think we just maybe don't realize that because they're far more, they internalize that stuff far more than women do.
So I did have two calls with guys like I entertained the idea of it. Ultimately like it didn't feel right to me but I think if the future got you know a guy were to come around again and book a call in it we talked and it felt like a good fit I wouldn't be against it but I do prefer to work with women just because I don't know, I feel like I can better connect with because I'm alone as well.
Kendra: I wonder if there's a lot of resources out there for men dealing with disordered eating. I feel like so much of health coaching and so many health coaches are women and we tend to work with women like I feel like, what do the dudes do?
Christine: I'm seeing a niche there. If you would dude and you don't know what to focus on.
Kendra: This might be the thing.
Chelsea: Yeah. Well actually, so I don't think I told you this Kendra, but I'm working now as a success coach with ITN with its Institution of Transformation just like on a remote position a few hours a week, helping people with the enrollment process. So I'm like facilitating incoming calls and emails from people interested in the program and I took that position because I want to put the word out there about ITN and I believe in the program so much and it was such a huge, played such a huge role in my life and I feel like it's not as talked about as a lot of other health coaching programs and what I love about ITN and what helped me so much was like the psychology, the spirituality element.
But anyways, I had a call with a guy who just signed up for the program last week and so I feel like he like he was resonating very much with like yeah, the holistic approach and we had a lot of similarities in our story. So I feel like people who kind of gravitate towards ITN. There's guys in the program like they could go on to help people like this.
Kendra: And I would love to know like what, if you could like break down your approach of like how do you actually work with women? Like what are some of the key things that you do with people that help like unwind this really unhealthy relationship that they have with food?
Chelsea: Yeah. So I mean my approach is nutrition, lifestyle, mindset. So I don't go in with like a set plan of like a week two this is what we're gonna work on. I do feel lucky enough to have a pretty intuitive nature about myself you know, because I think I was definitely like destined to do this type of work. So when I talk to someone I can kind of gauge pretty quickly what is kind of the underlying root issue or at least know how to guide our conversations to get those answers that I need and help them to open up slowly again because I really provide a safe space for them to feel comfortable to do so. So that's important for me just in our first few sessions to kind of get to the bottom of, just to see okay this is why you're doing this and then kind of talking through that so that they feel like, 'okay like I'm not damaged, there's nothing wrong with me, I understand, I'm you know struggling with food because I dealt with a lot of anxiety as a kid I didn't feel good enough and I felt safe because I could control food,' or whatever you know their specific story is. So talking that through with them and getting them to see like, there's something wrong with you, you're not alone, you're not damaged, there's hope to break free from all this stuff.
So kind of just getting to that place with them early on where they feel like confident and hopeful. So that's kind of like a big picture more like mindset approach that I try to weave in early on. But the food is also really important like I'm not I think I've had to kind of find my place within this like intuitive disordered eating community to pull from like all different sides because I still believe in real food, I still believe in blood sugar management, hormonal balance. I think all that stuff is really important like eating good quality food that's gonna help to lower your inflammation and keep your blood sugar balance. I think science, learning the science and learning the why behind certain foods that maybe set you off to have more cravings or to binge or you know those foods that really make you feel satiated.
Learning all that helped me and my journey so much I think that was one of the most important things that helped me break free from disordered eating was like eating breakfast, eating healthy fat, eating protein, like getting rid of the artificial crap and like all you know the diet drinks and 100 calorie packs and all that kind of artificial nutrient poor stuff. So I'm really really clear with my client’s even those that have a lot of the disordered eating habits that we're gonna still work on nutrition but I have to just approach it in the right way. So teaching them science is really important because a lot of people have a logical mind and as long as I can understand why they're doing something it doesn't feel as restrictive. It's very different than giving someone like a list of, 'Eat This Not That,' or people that come from dieting or it's like they did, Weight Watchers or like Atkins or you know, how did their calories or track their macros, it's all these just rules and these yes or no's.
And so if you kind of give them the science they feel empowered, they feel clearer, they feel like smart and educated and then they're making those choices because they want to, not because they should. You just talked a lot about that, like that should thing, you know, like.
Chelsea: It's such a big thing like we all, we do so many things because we feel like we should. I want to shift that, I want people to do it because they want to, it feels good and then you know making that shift to eating more real food, you feel so much more in tune with your body, you can kind of see like, ‘oh I'm feeling a little like mentally depleted, I'm gonna have some healthy fats, or like I just went for a long walk and maybe I'll have some like healthy carbs,’ or like you know, just kind of tapping into those little things, that make you just feel like safer on your journey with food.
And then, yeah, I just have to be sort of careful about the way that I suggest my recommendations. Cause for most of my clients it's I am going to suggest probably, because a lot of people who have disordered eating also have like gut issues and you know other health issues and stuff like that, and so I'm always gonna recommend, like probably going gluten-free and dairy-free. But it's hard because they're coming from this past of rules and restrictions and yes and no's.
Chelsea: So, I try to reframe it for them and say you know, ‘this is my recommendation and you're going to avoid this food because it feels good and it's that self-love and self-respect,' to like you know, ‘maybe it's causing your migraines, so in order to not have migraines and have a better quality of life that creates more space for you to do the things you like to do, let's just test out how you feel avoiding it but not because it's bad, just because maybe it's not helping you feel your best.’
So it's just like, it's kind of a dance and everyone's different but it's like just being careful the way that I suggest recommendations and then always like layering on to that the mindset of it all.
Christine: Yeah, brilliant! Sounds like everyone one can implement what you just said, you know, when looking at it, I think that's the way to go. So, do you work mainly online or offline?
Chelsea: Yeah, I'm entirely virtual.
Chelsea: Yeah, so I actually went international this year! Very cool. I had a client who, she's from Spain but she was studying abroad in Italy, so I spoke to her while she's in in Italy and Spain and then I had a client in Mexico, and a client in Canada...Kendra. Kendra: Very cool.
Chelsea: But your homeland and so yeah so that sort of been really really cool, really exciting. Kendra: Yeah, it’s so good how you can do this anywhere, you just take your business wherever you go, you can do the digital nomad thing, you can work for people from all over the world. I think that's awesome, for sure.
Chelsea: Yeah, yeah.
Christine: So how do you do your marketing and if we go into business, it's a topic that's obviously very personal, you talked about it before that you use or Kendra was saying she knows you from Instagram. So you're using your story there, but what would you say would be the most successful maybe business technique, business tweak that you used in order to spread your message and get clients in the end, because I mean...
Kendra: That's what it’s all about.
Chelsea: Yeah, I mean honestly, probably Instagram has my most successful form of, like turn over to clients and it's just an, the easiest platform for me to share my story and be most vulnerable. I love to write! I've always loved to write and I feel like I have an easy time expressing myself through writing, and so you know, I layered and pieces of my story when I first launched my business and then I would say in the last like two years I just was like, ‘I'm just gonna like share everything,’ and it's really served me and it's brought me my ideal clients too. Because in the beginning, I was still drawing in people that wanted just like 'weight loss' and you know, that's okay.
I have no, like I think it's okay to have weight loss goals still as a disordered eating expert, like I still think that can happen. You know not everyone has to just completely accept yeah forever and not have certain maybe if it's for a health reason those goals I think that's okay, and I think you can approach that in a healthy way, it has to be done in a healthy way with support with the practitioner. But it can be done so I'm not one to say like ‘no, like you never have to think about weight loss,’ but I was just drawing in the kind of people that weren't lighting me up, it didn't it kind of didn't, it just didn't feel right didn't feel like the work I wanted to do. And so I knew in order to draw in more of the people like the clients that I have now but just like light me up so much and like feed my soul, like it's just such so much more fulfilling.
I knew I had to get that really really honest and vulnerable about my story. Luckily I'm not, like I've gotten past the shame of it all, because I know there's so many people out there going through it because I've met them and I think that's what's great about social media is it's brought us, like to each other, it's you're able to connect with people and see people now that are going through it and talking about it, and it's removed a lot of the stigma, that I didn't have that, we didn't have that, like many years ago going through all this stuff like, I said it was like I had magazines or nothing, or friends that like we didn't know we didn't talk about the stuff. Like I was never in friend groups or we were, I was always the only one and everything was such a big dark secret.
So, I think that's what's so great about Instagram is it's like shown us, ‘it's okay, like it's safe just share your story,’ and I've just seen it benefit me and so it's motivated me more to be open and like spurns people will message me on Instagram I don't even know how, there and I don't have a ginormous following, like it's not that big at all. But there's people I don't realize they're out there and they'll message me and they'll say like just, ‘thank you so much for what you share, it's really helped me,’ and it's like, 'whoa really?' Like I didn't realize I had this type of impact you know, it's probably a normal person out there who's not, who lives a right, because you know a lot of us like other practitioners and stuff follow each other and we'll comment and stuff but this is this is just a regular person who probably doesn't interact, but would send me maybe one day send a message, and stuff like that, so yeah, it's just I feel like I was brought to do all this stuff, and so it's kind of like it feels like it's my, it's just what I have to do is to share. And I like sharing because it gives me the ability to connect with people, so yeah, to go back to marketing, I think.
Christine: Yeah, that's my interest, that's actually a question because I asked about Instagram and you said you like writing, and I'm gonna get wait a minute why aren't you writing? So tell me. Cause, I don't get Instagram at all. Like, I do it, but I'm like, I feel like it's another big thing vortex that is going to swallow me up, so I’m consciously collide to this platform.
I bet a gazillion other people who are listening and who have this Instagram kind of what exactly is it pictures, why is she writing? What does this mean?
Chelsea: Yeah, so it's, it's transformed a lot over the last few years. I guess Instagram started like five or six years ago, I think and it was pretty much just pictures. I mean the creators and programmers of Instagram I'm sure did not realize it would turn into what it is today. Which is yeah, a much more like a marketing advertising thing with ads and all this stuff now like it's really turned into something crazy, but yeah, you have to post a picture with every post, but then you can write below it a caption and there is like a.
Kendra: What's the limit of what you can write in the paragraph.
Chelsea: Yeah, yes I've written pretty much almost every time I meet I go to that very very end. It's probably like you know maybe like five or six and hair medium sized paragraphs of writing that you can fit into that. So yeah, so just honestly it just kind of like comes to me and I'll write about something maybe that I've gone through or like this and I don't just talk about food I talk a lot too about like mental health or like perfectionism or work, love.
Christine: Everything in general in a way, but if you do it.
Chelsea: It's exactly like that yes, yeah.
Kendra: I was just going to say Chelsea, I've taken so much inspiration from you and how vulnerable you are on social media, because you really, you lay it out there, and you're like wow, this really vulnerable this is really personal but you know, I think it's really important and I definitely started doing more about my own business and it's super helpful. It's a really great way to connect people and bring them to you and help people know that you're the right practitioner for them right.
Chelsea: Exactly yeah, and that's how I want my clients to feel, I want them to feel like I'm a friend and so if they can connect with me like, if they feel safe because yeah talking about this stuff is not easy. I mean, this is why for so many years I kept it a secret like, I didn't even tell my mom, I didn't tell my friends what I was doing so I was so ashamed of it. So of course, meeting with the practitioner you know who's a stranger, you're not necessarily gonna feel ready to open up to them and just every call. About like binge eating, like that's not easy for most people to talk about, of course not. So if I can put it out there and also to like put my face to it, because most people, I say this all the time to my clients who are going through something and they'll talk to me about and they'll be like sorry you know, just like beating up on themselves about it and I'm like, I dealt with that too and you wouldn't know that I dealt with it.
Like if you just look at a picture of me smiling you're probably like, 'oh wow she's got it great like what a perfect life and blah blah blah.' I have all these like health issues that I'm really open about. So like I struggle with that stuff and then also all this stuff from my past. I feel like if you can put a face to it you know, because we think the person who has disordered eating is this like you know, just this different kind of idea of a person and it's like we're walking around all day helping people with a story whether its food or health or you know mindset or whatever, and so I think just like breaking down that barrier right off the bat helps people feel like yeah, they can trust me and they can see themselves in me and that makes them feel safe enough to open up to me, work through stuff.
Christine: Great. I love it. I love that, that you use Instagram for that I think it makes a lot of sense.
Chelsea: We gotta get you using it.
Christine: I tried a bit. I don't know, it's I'm not very inspired by these things like it's not, I don't know.
Kendra: We'll get you on their we'll give you some advice, we'll get you on there.
Kendra: It's a great platform for like yeah, for sharing your story, for personal branding, for kind of getting out there, it has great features.
Christine: Yeah, but that's what I talked about as well, like I don't have the typical hero's journey, like I never suffered from the people for the same thing that my people are getting my help with. So it's different I think.
Kendra: You still struggle with things in daily life right? Like you still have enough day-to-day struggles, like I share stuff about like, you know I always talking about food prepping and I'm like and I really like fucked up this week, and like I didn't food prep but I don't like five times, I didn't feel great like, stuff like that, people want to see that person and that you're not perfect right. Even sharing something like that.
Chelsea: Yeah. I don't think it has to be exactly what your health. It doesn't necessarily have to be like, the exact thing you're helping your clients with, but anything like Kendra said, like anything that just shows you that you're real. That's what people are craving, realness, because I think luckily people are finally starting to see that there's a lot of fakeness out there and like people not being authentic and you know what's really cool about Instagram and I don't know if everyone knows that there's this whole like more like body-positive movement, if you're not following the right types of people, but because I'm kind of in someone adjacent to that community that's what I feel my feed up with and it's people who are like you know maybe we'll do a side by side picture or they're like this is me like posed and like arching my back and then it's like this is also me one minute later it's like let their stomach out and they just look like a real person and so it's like available to us to see.
Christine: Is that hashtag body, no hashtag… what is it?
Chelsea: Well it's like the body positive movement pump.
Christine: I have to check it out afterwards.
Chelsea: Yeah. There's a lot of people like that who are coming from like a very restrictive like, a lot of women who may be done like body, like bodybuilding or fitness competitions, who were like so restrictive, so lean, so unhealthy, and then like gained weight back and kind of talked about that journey and show like side-by-side pictures and talk about why it's okay and why they feel beautiful and like, how there's so much healthier now and just kind of like rewriting the social norms and you know, and then like a lot of people talking about like what I talked about with their past with food and their relationship food. Like it's becoming more like relevant, it's out there but you have to like be in that community I feel like to find that, because a lot of people are still following the other stuff.
Like one of the first things I have my clients do is like go through and Instagram cleanse, because a lot of people are following like just these not real accounts talking about dieting and like losing weigh-in and all this stuff and it's like if that's what you're seeing every time you scroll through your feed, you're not gonna feel you're not gonna feel good, so why don't you fill it up with something that would make you feel good. Kendra: Yeah, and it's so ingrained in people from a young age, because like I remember being in high school and trying to lose weight, I was not overweight, I was super fit, but it's like that's what all my friends were doing, we were just trying to lose weight for whatever reason and reading like Cosmo magazine and it's like all about weight loss and like you know it's just like it's so interesting and then now of course you know you talked about the social media like that's where I'm sure a lot of young people and girls are getting from it now. It's just like following you know different people on Instagram that just post like these super hot professional sexy photos and you're just like, 'oh my god like that's like I'll never look like that right.'
Christine: I think it's not going to change as quickly as we hope you know like Milly is four now and she I'm like oh hopefully will have changed by the time she's going to go to high school, but I'm pretty sure it hasn't, it won't.
Kendra: It'll always be there I think, yeah.
Christine: I think it will be there too. So we have one more question for you Chelsea before wrapping up and what advice would you give to other practitioners who are considering niching into disordered eating? Because it's such a specific topic.
Chelsea: I mean I think like, everything we've just been talking about, there's so many people out there that need your help. If you have a story to share, you just have even a passion to help these types of people, you have to go for it like, people out there need you.
So I think it's just just going for it and not holding back and being proud of your story because it got you to the place that you're at now and it's giving you a gift. Like if you've struggled with disordered eating or someone who's like been up and down in weight, I mean it doesn't have to be as extreme as disordered eating, which really just means an unhealthy relationship with food. So that's yeah, such a huge umbrella of things that could just be someone who's always dieted or just not like their body or always counted calories or whatever. Like that's a gift to be able to share with people, so it's not this like bad negative thing. If you can spin it to be like a positive thing you know. Being real about like the challenges of it of course and that it wasn't like a beautiful time in your life but that it got you to the place that you're at you know. I think you have to do it, you went through that for a reason.
Christine: I love that. I absolutely love that last sentence. 'You went through it for a reason,' I think that's brilliant.
Christine: Alright, I think that's all we have time for.
Kendra: Yeah, Chelsea where can we find out more about you? Where can listeners connect with you?
Chelsea: Yeah, so my website is: nutritionwithchelsea.com, Instagram: @nutritionwithchelsea and then I also have a podcast. So my podcast is called: nutritionish that's on iTunes, it's also on our website nutritionishpodcast.com and that's I have a great co-host and we're kind of this the split of science and mindfulness. So science based nutrition and mindfulness. So a lot of kind of what I help people with is like within the messaging of that podcast.
Chelsea: Probably the main places you can find me. I'm all over.
Christine: Brilliant. I'm going to follow you on Instagram then.
Chelsea: Oh thank you, I appreciate that.
Kendra: Well thanks so much Chelsea. We really really appreciate you being with us today, that was a great topic, so thank you for sitting down and so what else do we need to tell people Christine?
Christine: Yeah, so if you enjoyed our episode then please stop by our website. You can become a patron of the show, every little helps, we will appreciate it. So we have a patronic account you can go to our website: 360healthbizpodcast.com where you will find a big red button to help us there and to support us and to cheer us on. You can also see us live on or you can see us on our Facebook page which is facebook.com/360healthbizpodcast and we will also have this up on our website so you can see us, you can listen to us, you can read the transcript if you want to.
So all of that is available for you and you will get the links that Chelsea has shared with us there as well, so you can get in touch with her and please subscribe to iTunes and give us a beautiful review, we would really appreciate it. Anything else?
Kendra: Thank you, that's everything. Thanks so much, have a good day everyone.
Christine: Have a great day
Tools mentioned in this episode:
TOOL OF THE DAY: Practice Better (our recommended client management platform)
Ecamm (the platform we use to stream live into Facebook - best for single peeps - not for interviews)
BeLive (we recommend this platform if you plan to use interviews with Facebook Live - you cannot stream into FB groups)
Zoom (this is our most highly recommended platform but it does have a higher price tag. You will need the webinar add on to stream into Facebook live. It also has the added ability for online meetings and webinars. We love Zoom!)
Evernote (Great for making notes that sync with your smart phone!)
Google scholar alerts (Stay up to date with current health news)
Manychat (Build your first messenger bot!)
Wavve (Make moving audio graphics for Instagram and/or your podcast)
Temi.com & rev.com for transcription services
C922 pro stream by Logitech (Our favorite livestream camera)
Blue Yeti (the mic that we both use)
Kendra: Hello everyone. Welcome to another awesome episode of the 360 Health Biz podcast. I'm your host Kendra Perry, and I'm joined by my super sexy co-host, Christine. And how are you doing today?
Kendra: I would say I have two things going on with me. One, it's 07:17 in the morning and it's so early, I'm not awake yet. But the other thing is I got a nasty case of poison ivy. So I'm going to try not to itch. My advice to you is to check the grass that you lie on or the bushes that you want to, before you lie on them.
Christine: I have never even heard of Poison Ivy over here. I don't know if it's a thing in Europe.
Kendra: Maybe it's not. I used to get it all the time as a kid, because it was everywhere. We were always in the forest. It hasn't even been on my radar, but I'm pretty sure that's what's going on right now. Anyways…
We're excited to bring this episode to you guys today. We're going to talk about facebook live, so that you guys can generate a larger social media following, create more fans and get more clients. I think facebook live is a very valuable tool and if you're not using it, you really need to start getting comfortable and working towards hopefully using it in the future. Before we get started, we decided that for every episode, we want to give you a tool, something that we found really helpful in growing our business.
We will be giving you a tool of the day and today's tools of the day is PRACTICE BETTER. This is a client management software that I use and it really changed things for me. I think you tried it too Christine, but it didn't quite work for being in Europe.
Christine Yes, exactly. I tried to sign up for trial version and it doesn't work in Europe.
Kendra: It's really great if you're in Canada or the US. It basically puts everything into one place. My clients can schedule and create accounts. I can upload my lab tests or any documents I want to send them, through shared documents. I can send them invoices, I can create payment plans, I can pretty much do everything. When I got it, it actually allowed me to cancel several other subscriptions I was paying for at the time, because it really encompasses everything in one. They are a really great company, because they do listen. I've messaged them and would ask why isn't this a function? The next day, they literally made it available for us to use or they would add it to their next updates. They do listen. So if you're in there and you feel like something's missing, definitely reach out to them!
Christine: That is so cool! Let's create this amazing platform and once you have all the kinks worked out, you can open it to Europe!
Kendra: Absolutely! The creator, Natalie Ligorworld, who is a health coach herself, created it because there was nothing out there that really worked for health coaches. I think a lot of the available platforms work better for people, who own spas, gyms or yoga studios, but not so much specifically to people, who are consulting and working with clients online. So, it's a great tool. I highly recommend it and I hope you guys check it out.
Christine: So, Kendra, we are very confidently talking about facebook live,
Kendra: as we were going live on facebook,
Christine: yes! I'm checking for comments from time to time. So if you see my eyes darting that's just me looking at my phone, to see whether you send us a comment. Please do say hello, send us a wave and we'll mention you here. If you watch the replay, then still comment.
We've been both using facebook live for quite a while, but we have some listeners, who don't use facebook that much and who are not too aware of facebook lives. Let's quickly go through it. What exactly is it, why should you use it for your business? Maybe, if you're camera shy, we can even think about how you can use it; but why it might a good idea to look into the camera and have people see you. So I leave you the floor first.
Sure. Facebook live is basically just streaming live video onto your facebook page. If you have a business, you hopefully have a fan page. You're educating people, delivering value via live video on facebook. Yes, that sounds really scary and when you first start doing it, it's definitely going to be awkward. It's not the most comfortable thing. If you go back on my business page about two years, you can find the first live videos I did, where I don't look comfortable. I had a whole script written out, I prepared for it. I was freaking out and then, today I can just hop on a live video, spew off something about some topic I want to talk about and create value that way.
I would say that you do need to be using it. Even if you're really uncomfortable being on camera. Just start to toy with it, to experiment with it and start to slowly get comfortable; because when it comes to growing your fan base on facebook, live videos get the most reach. It gets the most organic reach, which means non paid access to your ideal clients. Most types of posts don't get a lot of engagement or you need to pay for them to actually be able to have them be worthwhile. Video views get out there. Facebook wants to be known for live video and they've been competing with youtube. They are going to push that type of post more out into the feed than any other post. So I think that's, probably the number one reason why you need to care and why you need to be using it.
I also think it is a great way to build relationships. Trying to build trust and rapport through text and copy is good, but I think that video piece, where you are almost looking into someone's eyes, showing your personality, being your genuine authentic self, really does help. People want to get to know more about you and they could become potential clients. I also think it's a great way to position yourself as an expert in your niche or whatever that is, because you can get out there, you can show your knowledge base and if you do want to run video view ads you can. Getting that awareness and your stuff out there is really cheap. It's not as cheap as it used to be. I think it was one or two cents per video view. Today it's probably somewhere around five to seven cents and now you can actually optimize for ten second video view vs three second. So I think that would make it a little bit more expensive, but it's still really cheap and a really good way to get yourself out there in front of new people, cold audiences, people who haven't seen you before, so that they can start warming up to you.
Christine: Yes, it's just different. People love video, they just stop and use feed. So that's definitely what you should do. Here are a couple of things that I would suggest for those of you, who freak out about recording a video. First of all, it doesn't need to be complicated. You can literally take your iphone and start going live from there. It doesn't need to be perfect at all. However, I would say that you need to look a little bit at who you wanted to talk to. If you are someone, who wants to sell high end, then you need to reflect it to some extent. I invested in a very cheap Amazon kit. I have a lightning kit and I always try to look somehow made up. Today I'm wearing pants, but it's been known that I haven't! What can be seen, should be tidied up.
One of the things that can be a bit sabotaging you and making you nervous about facebook live, is that you see how many people are actually watching you live. You see a little eye popping up and then another and another... 500. For me it's usually not that many. I have more people watching later; but when you see three people and suddenly it goes down to one, you immediately wonder, what did I say? What, where did I go wrong? Why am I so boring? Most of the time, it doesn't have anything to do with you. I tend to not look at that at all and I tend to not look at the comments. Try not to be distracted and just look at my camera lens. So, I just look at this little dot.
Kendra: I really love that you mentioned that, because I think when you first do live video, now when you have a really small fan page following, there might be zero people watching the video. That's okay, because it doesn't matter what happens when you go live, it really matters what happens afterwards. Facebook continues to push that video into the newsfeed and then you can turn it into an ad. When I started out, I had literally zero people watching. It doesn't matter, just roll with it. Pretend you have a great audience in front of you.
Christine: Exactly or just pretend you have one or none, if that makes you more comfortable. Even if it's a 'worst comes to worst' situation, you can get some really cool teleprompter apps for your ipad and it's like Kendra said, she started with a script. Do the same thing. Practice and you can record yourself. Then you can take the recording and you can just put it into google, because you have google voice that is basically doing a transcript for you or you can use a software like temi.com, where you can get cheap transcripts done and then you put it into your prompter app and you just read it. Make sure to try to do it naturally. So, if you're really insecure, why not start with that? You don't have to go pro right from the bat. Try to feel comfortable first. You can even set up a fake page, where you practice going live a couple of times before. It's totally up to you, but there is a difference between going live and just posting a video. We've seen that the algorithm prefers you're going live. It even is pushing a live video vs a video that you prerecorded and then upload to facebook.
So there is a lot to say about going live!
Kendra: Yes and I liked what you said at the beginning. It doesn't need to be fancy. I've definitely seen some experts out there saying you need to invest $300 into the site. Well, I can't. I've used my phone right from the beginning. I had nothing. I had no lights. If you look at my old videos, you can barely see my face. I'm sitting in the dark.... but you know, what is interesting?! I did this video about year and a half ago on CBO and it's a terrible quality video. No lighting, from my phone, just horrible. But it has 10,000 views on youtube and it's my most engaged video! People comment and love it and I get clients coming to me from that video. It's a really crappy looking video, like completely ghetto, but it doesn't matter. It's about the content, it's about the value that you put forward. Get started on your iphone or your android and then eventually you can invest in some light and invest in a better camera. That can happen with time.
Christine: Some people don't want to aim high and they just want to be a normal people person. The social media examiner has made a survey this year, and the videos that convert the best on facebook and probably on other platforms as well, are the ones that are taken vertically, not horizontally! We wouldn't have said it, but vertically is really okay. I just have a couple minutes, so I'm just going to do a quick video and it works really well for those people. So, if that's you, if you're someone, who just has an idea and wants to do this on the spot, then go ahead and do that. I also know people who plan for that. If you're someone, who's under pressure, 'Ooh, I don't want to do this every week'. I know that some people plan five topics and we're going to talk about which topics to use, and then they take different clothes. They go to different locations, but all in one day. They do their first video, they change their outfit, go to a different location in their house or neighborhood, do the second one and then just spend one day, but they have five weeks covered. So it's awesome.
Kendra: Very cool. I think really in the end you just need to do it. There's no way to prepare for it or be more comfortable without just doing it over and over and over again. I never thought I'd be comfortable in live video. It made me really uncomfortable, really nervous. Now, I do it multiple times a week. It's totally fine. I think when you want to get started with facebook live, there are a lot of really easy topics to cover, that will help get you engagement and help bring people into your live video or your recording. One thing that I do and that works really well, is a weekly Q & A. I allow people to submit their questions and then I answer them on a live Q & A.
That is actually my most popular live video and I do it every week at the same time. People know they can send in their questions and that provides a lot of value to people. I get a lot of good feedback about it. If you don't have a big enough following, maybe people aren't going to be submitting you questions. Just listen to what your clients are saying. When you work with clients and you hear the questions they asked, write that on a post it or make a little note with evernote or similar and use that question as the topic of your next live video. What kinds of things you cover in your live videos Christine?
Christine: Pretty much the same. Either a spur of the moment thing, but most of the time it is client related questions or when I have clients on the phone, who inquire to work with me, that's where I write things down. Something that I do as well, is I check what's on the news. Recently Elan Musk from Tesla was in the news quite a bit about his sleep issues. So that's something that I would pick up on, in order to get traction and in order to be picked up by other blogs and so forth. That might be something you can look into too.
I also recommend that you sign up for Google scholar alerts. You will get new research sent to your inbox about whatever your topic is. I have sleep as my topic for Google scholar alert and I think it's every four days or so, I get the newest articles on sleep research into my inbox.
If I don't know what to say about a topic, I will just check what the newest research is and I will use that for example. Most of the time it's client questions and don't be afraid to use the same topic twice. I know that we are all scared about being repetitive, but actually it doesn't matter. You will always find a different spin on things, use that. So I think that's also a good tool to use.
Kendra: Yeah, that was a juicy tip. I didn't even know about that. I'm super excited! I also love that about using something trending. Recently Hawaii band sunscreen, so I talked about that and then I think there was that debacle, where all these articles were saying that coconut oil causes heart disease and people freaked out about that. That sort of stuff you see trending in your newsfeed or what other people are talking about on social media, are great things to address. I love what you said too, about being repetitive and not worrying about it, because I repeat the same things over and over and over again. Keep in mind that you're following your fans, like they're not experts. Like they need to hear this stuff multiple times before it really sinks in. Also keep in mind that not the same people are always going to be watching your videos.
Christine: Absolutely. The last thing I would recommend is don't necessarily hold back in your facebook live. If you do a specific topic, just say pretty much everything that you can educate. In the end we do this obviously to get people to follow us. Every other video, I will do a very clear call to action, which means I ask my audience to do something. We call that a call to action or CTA. Something that has to do with your business. It could be ‘check out my blog’. You would say ‘go to my website’. If you have an opt in, which means the free gift, that could be a checklist or a free video series, anything like that on your website that people give you their email and you will give them the gift in return. So it's not really a gift, but rather an exchange. Every other video I would do that. The foremost idea is to give. To really help them out and then every other time, why not ask for something back. Life is not just about giving, it's also about receiving. Don't be scared to do that. My call to action, you can usually go by the blog post or I ask them to go to my website and sometimes it's also just to get in touch with me and send me an email and I will give them my private email address. There are many different ways. Kendra, she is much more into this, than I am. I do this maybe every five times. Kendra does it more consistently, but it has actually to do with commenting. So maybe we can talk a little bit about that and how that can turn into magic.
Kendra: Using commenting?
Christine: Using the bots.
Kendra: Oh yes, I love the bots.
We will actually have a full episode on chatbox coming up pretty soon. One of my favorite topics to talk about. Basically a bot, it sounds really creepy and weird, but it's pretty awesome. Think of it like an email list, but instead of using email, you're using facebook messenger. Christine, I think you use something different than me. I use MANY CHAT, because you can get a free account. What do you use, Christine?
Christine: I use MONKEY BOT.
Kendra: So there are a couple of different options out there, but basically you can connect one of these chatbots to a facebook post. It can be a live or some other posts, where you ask people to comment. A recent one that I did, I released a new free energy guide to help bring women more energy, help them get rid of fatigue and I've been trying to promote that. I did a facebook live on different ways to boost your energy. I had a chat box connected to it, where they had to comment with a certain word and then I send them that opt in or freebie through facebook messenger. They just had to comment 'guide' and when they comment 'guide' that triggers the chatbox and then through facebook messenger, they get an automated message, 'hi, here's the thing that you signed up for' and then they can access it that way.
I think that's a really powerful tool, mostly because with facebook messenger is on people's phones. For email most people are going to go on their computer, but typically with facebook messenger most people get a notification when they get a message. So you are right into their phone. Messenger bots actually have a significantly higher open range. About 80 % vs 20 % with email. You can reach more people, which is cool. You can have a little bot subscriber lists. Once a week, I usually send people stuff like, 'hey, this is what I'm up to, this is what I have going on'. If you're going to do many chat or the monkey bot, you have to keep in mind that it is a little bit more invasive. You really need to ask permission more often and you need to always let people know how they can unsubscribe, because people are still kind of confused by it. You don't want to be messaging them incisively. What I typically do, I say 'Hey, I have this going on... do you want to learn more?' And if they don't, they click 'No'.
Christine: That's a good idea. Like 'I have a new blog post, do you want to check it out?’ And then they have the choice to say yes or no.
Kendra: Yeah, not like, 'Hey, this is what I'm doing and just inundating them with this big message. That turns people off, freaks them out a bit. But it is a really good way, because if you get them on your list, you can eventually get them on your email list.
Christine: Exactly and you can blast them. They called it a blast, so you can send them a promo once a month, once every three months, which is fine and totally okay if you don't do it too often and it's super effective. I would just use it sparingly, because it is a very private space. For all of that, you need to get the people in your system first and facebook lives with free gifts, where people just comment is amazing. It's just so easy.
So we had a couple more things that we wanted to talk about and that's how to position a product or a service. Let's say you don't want to be an old school infomercial: 'oh, here's the brand new car that you can use for...' We don't really want to do it like that. People are going to be turned off by that. There is a certain way of kindly presenting your product, which could be a course, a product, a cream, a supplement or your service, in a way that's just understandable and likable. Kendra, I believe you have a couple of ideas on that.
Kendra: Yes, I think there's kind of a smooth way to do it. I think anytime you're trying to sell or position a product or service on a facebook live, you do need to start with bringing valuable content. That should be the purpose and that should be the bulk of the video. It should be that very engaging, valuable content that the viewer is going to be like, 'wow, this is awesome'. You want to come up with your topic, present that topic, tell them a little bit about it; but then you want to help them understand that they have that issue or this is actually a problem, because I think with health stuff, some people might not know that it is an issue.
We've used hormone imbalance a lot as an example, because sometimes women don't know they have a hormone imbalance. They know they have PMS, but they don't realize that's their hormone. So you may need to educate them. 'Hey, PMS is a hormone imbalance, and this is not normal. This is not something you should be going through every month. It tells us that something's wrong’. Then you want to deliver that really good content, which again, should be the bulk of that video. I also like to tell a story in there. Weave in a story of myself or maybe a client, who had this issue and then kind of show how either myself or that person was able to overcome it, and get that positive outcome. I think that helps people relate, because maybe they'll see themselves in that story or they'll say 'oh my gosh, you can help people. Maybe you can help me!'
Also, I've been using this a lot and I think it works really well for you. Which is how to lead into the pitch in a way that's not really in your face; but rather, 'hey, so now you know that you have hormone imbalance. You might be wondering how to actually fix it. I have this free three-part video series or this cheap course or whatever it is that can actually help you fix that.' Then of course obviously making it easy for people to sign up and get it. Having that link, making it streamlined. Maybe you connect your chat bot to the comments. I find that kind of dialogue works really well. 'I have this problem and I do want to fix it, so what do I do?' You can then say 'Hey, I have a solution!'
Christine: Exactly. So that's how we do it. So for example, today we would say 'if you want to get more tools, like that set of practice tool and more ideas, then you can go to our website 360healthbizpodcast.com and you can download it for free!’
That would be an example of how we would do this.
Kendra: Yeah and I think with your facebook lives, I'm always plugging in my freebie. I'm not in people's face about it, but for every live video I started with 'Hey, I'm Kendra Perry, this is what I do, this is who I help and if you want to learn more about me, hop to my website or I have this free lead magnet, whatever it is, this is where you can get it', and then I might mention it again at the end, but it's very noninvasive. I'm not a whole video. It doesn't surround around that. But I think you need to keep telling people that it's there.
Christine: Yes. Don't be shy. You are helping people. There is information that they don't know about and you share it with them. That's it. Don't feel guilty about it. The other thing is, facebook lives are incredible for content creation and I would suggest that you go to our episode that we have with Jamie Palmer. It's on our website as well. Really go and have a look. She goes into detail as to how she uses one facebook live to create 20 pieces of content within an hour. I will to try to break it down very quickly and you can already implement that today.
It's basically what I do and I have seen an increase of people going to my website by 600% in the month of August. It's been massive since I've started implementing her strategy. What you do, is you do a facebook live like this and you can actually check out our website, because that's what we are doing. We do our facebook live then after that you uploaded to youtube, so it's already on two platforms. This video is then going to be embedded onto our website, so already on three, we're going to use the audio of this video to be transcribed by temi.com or you can also use rev.com; both are similar. Rev is a little bit more expensive, but it's still only a buck a minute, but a bit more accurate.
Then we have our assistant going through the transcript making sure that there aren't too many typos and that everything makes sense. That then is our blog post and our newsletter. Then we use another platform called missinglettr. Missinglettr is checking for new posts. It's taking the content out and it's taking snippets from that content and all we have to do is go through these snippets and pick nine that we like for example, and then we just tell missinglettr to schedule that out throughout the year. So two are going to be posted pretty quickly and then we have them scheduled to go out every three months more or less for a whole year. So it's just out there. All of these pieces of content are done and it doesn't even take an hour to be honest and you are everywhere.
We create a graphic that we put on the page, that you can use on pinterest or other social media and that's it. You have all of that done within half an hour. If you have an assistant it's even better, but you don't need to. It's actually not that much. But that's all you can do with just one piece. Something that Jamie also advised for instagram, which I adore, is wavve. They basically do sound cards. You have soundbites on a card so that you can post it to instagram and people can listen to a snippet. Fantastic! Absolutely fantastic! So there's so much you can do. You can use the video for instagram or a piece of it for instagram and then tell people if they want to know more, they can click here. On linkedin you have 10 minute video limits, so there's lots you can do with this and it all stems from this one piece of content.
Kendra: That's a great episode and I feel that episode was helpful to both of us and hopefully helpful to everyone else. You shouldn't be reinventing the wheel. When you have an online business these days, you have to be on so many different platforms and it can be overwhelming. But if you're smart about it and you use this sort of content creation strategy and really utilize these live videos, I mean that's your content! I do two live videos a week. That is a ton of content that I can turn into so many pieces of content. I never have a shortage of content to push out there.
Christine: Exactly. Now the last thing that we might want to talk about is, I think we're going to do a complete separate show on facebook ads, where we're going to tie in facebook lives; but if you are someone who has been doing video via your phone, maybe via your app or webcam and you want to step up, then this is just at hoc, we didn't plan for this. Let's look a little bit of the tools that you might use. Personally, I always suggest to get a high end or a good webcam that goes up to HD. I have a logitech. I think it's a C9 something...
Kendra: I think I have the same one. It's the C922 pro stream by Logitech. I don't think it was that expensive. It was under 150$ and it looks good. Look how good we look right now!!
Christine: Yes, we do! Especially if you want to do podcasts. 70 - 80% of the podcasts nowadays are also video. They are doing the same thing we do. They put it on their youtube channel as well, so you want to look good. It just makes it so much more professional. When I see an interview or during the summit or anything and it looks amateurish, I immediately connect it to less money, which might be me just judging, but other people would judge and be as shallow just as I am. So I think it's really, really good to invest into a proper Webcam and into a tripod to hold it. The other thing that is key is your sound. A lot of podcasts actually ask you to have decent mics. I have the Blue Yeti that I use all the time.
Kendra: I have that too! We're twinsies!
Christine: See there you go! Then the last step, something that I really started using only a month ago, but I love it, are these lights. I have two soft light boxes here.
Kendra: Do you have the big box lights?
Kendra: That's what I have too!!
Christine: I literally just went to Amazon and I looked for a lightning set. It makes you look good and I'm going to reveal the truth here. Kendra and I will do this via zoom and zoom has a filter that makes it look good so it just smoothens you out.
Kendra: You go to video settings and then you just enable 'touch up my appearance'. It just smooths out your skin tone. I love this, because I use zoom with clients and sometimes I look really haggard, but then I get on zoom and I'm like 'I look good'. This is awesome.
Christine: You look like a model out of the 20's. So yeah, we're giving you the truth here. We actually look like we are a 100 years old.
Kendra: Totally! You wouldn't even recognize us in person.
Christine: But yeah, go with what you got. It does make a difference. I get slightly annoyed, when I see videos with super low sound quality. I think it's fine if you do it on your personal channel or in a group amongst friends, like I'm in a mastermind group, where it really doesn't matter. However, if you want to do it on your professional page, try to do it as professional as you can. Impressions count. You never know who's stopping by. It might be someone who's looking to have you as a guest on TV. So if they see you 'ou..., she already looks good in her amateur studio, what is she going to look like on a TV platform?' Oprah might be stepping by and say, 'Ooh, looking good. I want her on my platform.' But I think it’s step two and three, after you started to do this. It's a good investment.
Kendra: Don't be afraid to be yourself. Be professional, but whatever that means for you. Don't try to be someone you're not. I tried to be really professional in the beginning, but I swear. I'm kind of crass, I am really blunt. That's me and definitely since I started doing that, it attracts more of the right people to me. I have people tell me 'oh my God, you have a potty mouth. What a dirty mouth. I would never follow you' and I'm like 'good riddance'. I don't care. This is who I am. If you are my client, I'm probably going to drop an f bomb in our meetings, so you better be okay with that. So it's good to put it forward, but be professional and be yourself.
It's okay to make mistakes and stumbled over words. Facebook live is not about perfection. It's just about delivering content, being yourself and showing a bit of your personality. I think that can be really powerful. There was actually one more thing I wanted to mention. This is something I see people doing all the time and it drives me crazy. It's seeing people go live on their personal page for business. I think it's because people obviously have a bigger following on their personal page, so they get way more engagement. They get way more people showing up, but it's a waste of your time, because you can't do anything with that. You can't create an audience out of that. You can't create an add out of that. You can't track those people and I know it's also against facebook guidelines. It's against their terms of service. You cannot use your personal page for business. They can shut you down, but I haven't seen that happen before, but it's a possibility. Yes, you are going to get more engagement on your personal page, because you probably have a thousand friends vs like…
Christine: Oh, it's great for your ego but not for your business!
Kendra: Yes, exactly!. Just don't do it! Accept the fact that maybe for six months to a year of you doing live videos, you may only have like zero to five people showing up. Even now with me, sometimes I do videos and I only have four or five people online.
Christine: It also depends on the time of day, the weather and it literally depends on what people are in the mood for. Don't take it personally.
Kendra: Absolutely. So yeah, don't feed your ego by going on your personal page.
Christine: No, absolutely. Feel free to share the video from your business page to your personal page. Feel free to do that, but don't go live on your personal page for your business.
Kendra: That's actually really good advice. If you're just sharing it to your personal page and people engage with it that way, you can track those people. You can turn those people into an audience. But you can't do that if you're just doing live on your personal page.
Christine: What else? Oh yes! A couple of more things. So you can obviously go live from your facebook page itself, but you can also use third party tools. So things that Kendra and I are using is a software called ECAMM. I use it when I go live on my facebook page on my own; but it's not ideal for interviews. So when it's just the two of us, we use ZOOM. It is a little bit more costly, but we have the filter and then you also have a platform called BE LIVE. You have different ways of doing it.
Another little tidbit is that you can use your phone to have guests on your facebook live. So the trick though is that when you go live and let's say I wanted to go live with Kendra, I would start going live and once she looks at the video I would see view and I would see that she's looking and then I have the option to tap on her name and to add her to the video.
Now here's a little interesting piece of information. If you're holding your phone vertically, then there's just going to be a tiny window popping up on the right hand corner with Kendra space, but if you hold it horizontally you will be side by side and I think you can even add more than one person. Sometimes when you don't want to invest into zoom but you want to do interviews, just tell people that they have to be on a mobile phone too. That is a little hack you can do before you might want to splash out on zoom, that is a little bit costlier.
Kendra: Yeah. Zoom definitely is pricey, but that's a really good tip. I've done that a few times with people and it works well.
Christine: Alright. I think that's all we have time for today. Don't forget to stop by our website and if you want to support us, we are members of the patron pages, so you can become a patron of the show. We would really appreciate it if you liked this episode. If you learn something new, if you want to give us a round of applause and just a little tip for our cupcake money, then step by. There is a big red button on the bottom where you can support us. We would really enjoy it and we would be really, really happy. We will be back in two weeks’ time on our facebook page and we're going to post an interview with...
Kendra: Chelsea Gross. We were talking about disordered eating. Chelsea is a friend of mine. I met her at a conference a few years back and she's turned her issues with food and disordered eating into a really thriving business. It's a really good episode and I think it's a really good niche to focus your business on. We'll be putting that out in a couple of weeks. Make sure to leave us a review on itunes. If you liked the podcast, give us a five star review. Let us know what you like, what you don't like, but hopefully just what you like. We would love that, because that helps us get out to more people. More people are going to see us, we'll be able to help more people and help more health coaches grow their business, if people are giving us good reviews on itunes. So we really appreciate that.
Christine: Absolutely. Get in touch. We have an email. If you also have maybe a tool that you want us to review and maybe present to our audience then get in touch with us as well. We're open to that too and don't forget that we have our tool kit with all the tools that we've been using up until now with suggestions and links on our website for free.
Kendra: Yes and it honestly will help you save so much time, if you are using the proper platforms. It can take so much time to research this stuff and figure out what to use. We pretty much reviewed everything, put everything into the toolkit with every single online subscription platform that we're using to make our lives easier, so that we can spend more time actually growing our business and doing the things that we want to be doing, rather than just being stuck in the trenches.
Christine: Go ahead and check that out and we will see you in two weeks. bye!