Have you ever wondered how to grow your sales with Facebook groups? Facebook groups allow you to be your authentic self and show up each and every day to your followers. In this episode, Joanna Novelo will dive into Facebook groups, share why having quality of members is sometimes better than the amount of Facebook members, and how to engage with the people in your Facebook group. We also discussed how your involvement and engagement in your Facebook group can help grow your followers and lead to increased sales.
With a life’s mission to invoke the same feelings that Walt Disney has for people….It’s certainly no surprise that Joanna Novelo wears a shining cape when it comes to bringing out the best in others. Joanna is an expert in community building and management as well as customer service, account management, CRM set up and management, and social media strategy. If Joanna could sum it all up in one sentence this is what she would say, “My fulfillment in life comes from seeing others transform, win, and I love being a part of that.” Her only flaw is that she feels responsible when people get thrown off their path: because, ultimately it’s imprinted in her DNA to make sure people have a good time.
Oh and did we mention that you considers herself a GIF consultant. Yea..we thought that was pretty cool too.
Connect with Joanna here: https://www.facebook.com/joanna.novelo.7
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Kendra Perry: Hey, hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am your host, Kendra Perry, and sadly, I am without my lovely, beautiful cohost, Christine. Right now, she is with her little one. So, you guys are just going to have to hang out with me today, but luckily, I have a pretty awesome guest with us on today who I am really, really excited to hang out with. Our paths have kind of been crossing on and off over the past few years, and when it comes to building an online community, which is pretty important these days if you want to be successful in your health coaching business. She is the expert. I was actually in a Facebook group where she was the community manager. It was probably a couple years ago now, and I just remember her being so fun, so many GIFs, loved all the GIFs. She definitely was a GIF inspiration for me because, now, that's how I run my groups, with a ton of ridiculous GIFs, and just to give you guys a little bit more background on [Joanna 00:01:04], her life's mission is to invoke the same feeling that Walt Disney has for people.
Kendra Perry: It's certainly no surprise that Joanna wears a shining cape when it comes to bringing on the best of others. She is an expert in community building and management as well as customer service, account management, CRM setup and management, and social media strategy, so lots of great skills there. If Joanna could sum it up all in one sentence, this I what she'd say, "My fulfillment in life comes from seeing others transform, win, and I love being a part of that." Her only flaw is that she feels responsible when people get thrown off their path because, ultimately, it's imprinted in her DNA to make sure people have a good time. That is a fantastic bio, Joanna. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
Joanna: Thank you for having me, Kendra.
Kendra Perry: That is awesome, and right before we hopped on to record today, I was actually creeping on your Facebook group, and what I saw on your Facebook ... or not your Facebook group, your Facebook page, and what I saw was "GIF consultant." And I was like, "Yes. She totally is the GIF consultant. I love it." I love it.
Joanna: Yeah. I'm going to make it a real profession.
Kendra Perry: I think it needs to be a real profession. I love that you use so many GIFs, and you had so much humor when we were in the funnel playground together, and when I run my groups, we have a lot alike. I'm in the health coaching industry. So, we have a lot of really sick people who are in really dark places, and I like to keep the mood light, and once you kind of set the stage for [inaudible 00:02:28], everybody gets into it, right?
Joanna: They do.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. So, I would love if you could just tell me a little bit about how you ended up as a community manager expert, being kind of the expert in Facebook groups. I would love to know how you got from A to B.
Joanna: Yeah. So, it's really funny. A to B, actually, the vehicle that I used to get there was GIFs. So, it's a super funny story, and it started in the group that we were in together. So, I started out working for Lindsay Padilla, and she just gave me the space to do whatever I wanted in her business, and she was like, "Oh, does that sound good? Here take this course. Let's do this." So, I was kind of just hopping around, and she said, "Hey. So, we have this group called Funnel Playground, and we just need some help with it." And Emily Hirsh gave me the space to just play around and have fun in there, and it actually ended up being the thing that stuck, and so, it kind of just went one right after the other. I ended up being in someone else's group, and they asked me if I wanted to manage their community as well, and then, that one led to another, which led to another, and yeah.
Kendra Perry: And here you are.
Joanna: And here we are.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I mean, I just love that because that membership with Emily and Lindsay was so fun, and I mean, that's definitely what they were doing for, but it was like marketing and funnels doesn't seem that fun, but it really was fun, and I just love the energy that you brought to that group. You were just on every post, commenting with something funny, with emojis, with GIFs, and it really kind of made maybe what would have been a dry topic just really funny and lots of laughs.
Joanna: Exactly. Yep.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. So, I want to start from the very beginning here because I actually get this question a lot. A lot of people seem to be confused between the difference between a Facebook page and a Facebook group. Can you just briefly explain the difference so we can kind of set the stage? And then, we'll hop into community and Facebook groups in a little more detail.
Joanna: Sure. So, this is just kind of how I picture it in my mind. A Facebook page is kind of like your billboard. It's like your advertisement. That's where people who are just coming in off of the sidewalk are seeing you, and then, they're finding out about you. The Facebook group is actually where they've come inside, and they've sat down.
Kendra Perry: Oh, okay. I like that.
Joanna: And then, that's where you get to have deeper conversations with them. So, it's kind of like stage one, just your advertising, and then, stage two is they're coming inside, they're having a seat, and they're opening up conversations.
Kendra Perry: Okay. Yeah. That's really cool. So, it would probably be pretty hard to get a lot of engagement or build a community just based off of your Facebook page, probably just wouldn't happen, hey?
Joanna: Yeah. If you're able to volleyball back and forth with conversations with people, they'll follow your page. They'll follow your group, and they will engage in both.
Kendra Perry: Okay. That's very cool. Okay. So, let's talk about some of the different types of Facebook groups because I know there's not just one type or maybe one reason why you would use one.
Joanna: Sure. Okay. So, there are several different types. I would say as far as purpose, it's split into two. It's either that you're promising to move someone from point A to point B, which is actually the overarching of any group, is you're supposed to connect for some reason. So, that's the overarching reason of any group, and then, there are some where it's like a program where you're moving from along this journey to get a desired result, or you're networking, and so, you're just in there to meet other people. And there's such a huge variety because it can be people who sell quilts. They're in there to network with other people. Whatever it is, it's just about connection. So, then, you get into what is the purpose of the group. How is it supposed to serve you? So, if you are launching a product, is it just a container there for you to build the buzz, to build the hype, and then, there's an endpoint for that, right? And then, they might move into a paid group.
Joanna: So, with each one of these types of groups, there's different rules, and there's different cultures and vibes that are going on in these communities, and so, oftentimes, what shapes it the most is how much of an investment they're putting into it. So, you might have a free group, which is where people are just coming to learn about you to open up conversations, and we'll get into this later, but a free group is, it's the starting point of everything and where the conversation ... You've been out on social media talking, and now, they come in, and they're like, "Okay. Yeah. Let's talk." So, the free group is a place for people to bridge that gap. Then, you might have a paid membership group, and then, you might have a premium mastermind type group. And then, there's other types of launches like JV Launches. If you're launching for someone else, there's totally different rules and things around that, and then, just giving somebody a place to connect. So, for some people, and this is cool. It's cool. Sometimes, there's secret societies, private groups, where they might curate 20 to 50 people, and they're just in there to connect with each other, right?
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Okay. That's awesome. I really love that. I love the idea of kind of you can almost move people through this journey of Facebook groups from off your page into your free into your mid-level membership, and then, maybe some, yeah, premium mastermind sort of thing. Okay. So, let's talk a little bit about free groups because I know a lot of our people, they want to get clients, and they're trying to come up with ways to build that trust, build that trust, build that like and trust factor with their people, and I do know a lot of them are trying to leverage Facebook groups, but a lot of people, I feel like the biggest thing, and you probably hear this all the time, too, is that how do I get engagement. And I had this experience when I had a free group, too. It was so hard to get that engagement, to get more than just me posting in the group, right? So, why do you think it's so hard to get engagement in a free group, and do you have any tips and tricks for how to maybe improve that?
Joanna: Oh, my gosh. Yes. So, all the pieces of the puzzle are right in front of you. It's just that maybe people don't know that, that's a piece of the puzzle or what they should be looking at. So, first of all, the tone that you use in your group is different from what you use on your social media. I also have this totally radical idea that people are killing themselves to create social media content and then giving the leftovers to their group when, actually, if they just went into their group and started conversations, the social media would come out of that, and social media gets the leftovers, not your group. So, your group is not responding because they got leftovers. It's the same thing that you posted out on your personal page, and it's the same thing you posted on Instagram. So, if I were actually to flip it, and I was in your community, and I contributed to that conversation, and I saw it happen in real time, and then, if I follow you on Instagram, I see that you listened to me, number one. You listened to me, and then, you took that, and then, you put it on your Instagram, you're shining a light on your community.
Joanna: So, you're creating a raving fan out of that, and then, you're showing people out on social media what they're missing inside of your group. And then, you're driving traffic to the group because, "Hey, that's a killer conversation that came out of there. I identify with that." And you know why they'll identify with it is because it came from one of their potential peers in your group. You didn't create it. It's not from your mouth. It's from the mouths of somebody else in the group. So, they'll identify with it. So, the biggest reason people aren't getting engagement is because they know that they're getting leftovers, which is just an easy switch. Just switch it, and that just comes down to creating conversations. So, Facebook gives you tools that help you to understand what people want to talk about and what people find interesting. So, the biggest thing you can use is ... You know when you're inside your group, and you can click on someone's profile, and then, it pulls up that running scorecard of all the things they commented on, all the things that they've liked? Do you know what I'm talking about?
Kendra Perry: Yep. Totally. Are you talking about the insights tool?
Joanna: No. So, it's actually if you're just inside the group in the discussion, if you were to click on someone's name, it would pull up, "Oh, this is when they joined. This is the last comment that they left." So, you can actually see. Facebook actually took all their activity and put it into a little scorecard that all you have to do is click on, and you can actually see what that person likes, literally.
Kendra Perry: Interesting.
Joanna: I can see the comments that they're liking, and if I can see a pattern there, I can create something out of that.
Kendra Perry: Oh, I love that. That is so personalized, which is so fantastic, and I love what you're saying about creating this conversation. The way to get people engaged is to create an actual conversation instead of just ... I think maybe a mistake people make is they're just trying to educate, but they're putting a post into a group that don't really drive conversation or ask people a question. There's no reason to engage. It's just like, "This is this, and this is why you should do this," and it's like, "Okay. Great. I got that. I don't need to say anything more." Right?
Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. And so, actually the easiest way to create content for your group is through sales conversations that you're having. So, the biggest objections that you're getting, you don't even have to create any of this content. You would just take your sales calls and be like, "What did they object about this?" And then, you go to the group, and you educate your group on why that's not a thing. So, then, you're slapping down your objections for the future, but you're also teaching them because that was something they came to the call, and they were misunderstood about, right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Joanna: So, you take it back to the community. You teach them how to not be this person, and there's your content, and then, the conversation will take off from there.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I love that. I think you can get so much content from sales calls, sometimes, just having Post-Its. I literally will post it, post it, post it. My company is just covered in Post-Its with all these questions that people ask, and not only is that great for your group, but it's great for everything. It's great for your sales copy, on your sales page. It's great for your email marketing, just seeing ... because there's going to be a lot of overlap, typically, with those questions that people are asking, right?
Joanna: Exactly. So, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Whatever reason people feel, and people will always say that free groups take the most time, and it's not. I mean, I would just put up a post about an objection I got in a sales call, and I would let the conversation develop out of that.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love that you bring that up because I hear that, too. It's so much work. It's like an extra social media platform, and definitely, I think people need to really embrace the repurposing of content idea across all platforms, right? We shouldn't be reinventing the wheel, but I love what you're saying about groups, or it can just be so simple, and you don't need to put this huge post with this beautiful graphic and all these hundreds of points on why something is helpful, but you could really just ask people a simple question that might relate to something that they're going through, and that's going to get way more engagement, right?
Joanna: Exactly. Yeah. Because if you're doing the other, you're preaching to them rather than asking them, "What do you want?"
Kendra Perry: Yeah. So, it's probably better to get more on their level, right? We don't want to be standing above them talking down to them. We want to be sitting on the exact same level with them, talking to them, person to person, like friends or acquaintances sort of thing.
Joanna: Yeah. So, some of the most successful group owners are the ones that are willing to get out and mingle.
Kendra Perry: Mingle. I love it.
Joanna: Yeah, which is why Lindsay does really well. She will always beat anyone in an organic form because she's down talking with the people.
Kendra Perry: Totally. Yeah, and I love that you say that because I was just at Social Media Marketing World, and definitely, one of the themes at that conference was like, "Talk to people. Have real conversations." If you want to try something new, ask people if they want it, and then, create it based off of the feedback that you get, which is so much of Lindsay's perspective. I love Lindsay, too. I'm in her Building a Better Beta course about courses, and it's so much about create based off of what people are telling you and what they're asking for, which is very simple but very genius, right?
Joanna: Yeah. It's very back to basics.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love that. It's kind of like that full circle of online marketing, right?
Kendra Perry: Cool. Okay. So, I would love to know, do you have any strategies that you use for starting a Facebook group to maybe start it off on the right foot instead of kind of starting a group, having their be crickets, and then, sometimes, I'll see people just adding people in without their permission and just kind of forcing people into a group to try to make it happen. Is there a better way to kind of start that group off on the right foot so people are coming in engaged? Do you have any strategies for that?
Joanna: Yeah. So, it comes down to the purpose of your group because a lot of times, the purpose of the group is tied to how many members you're trying to recruit for it. If it's super high mastermind, you're obviously going to keep your numbers low. If you're trying to grow a free group, you're probably going to want to keep your numbers high. You're shooting for high numbers. Okay. So, that's the defining factor on how many members should I have because everyone always thinks, "As many as I can get." So, it depends on the purpose of what you're trying to do. So, everyone always thinks, for a free group, it's as many as I can get, and I'm a failure until I get at least 1000 members. For some reason, the gold standard is 1000 members like, "I've kind of made it when I hit 1000."
Joanna: So, the quality of the people that you add into your group is going to affect the quality of the output of the group. A lot of times, people, just for numbers, will add in the people that don't want to be there, and then, they're not engaging, and then, they're like, "Well, why is my group not engaging?" Well, they didn't come there to engage. They came there just to support you, and they didn't want to tell you no, but they don't have anything to contribute to the conversation. So, why would they? So, you need an avatar. So, this is what's hilarious about the whole thing. You're out in the sales funnel using this avatar. On Facebook ads, you created an avatar, and then, when you get to the group, which is where the money's at, right? Getting in there, face-to-face, and you accept anybody.
Kendra Perry: I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.
Joanna: So, you have to stick to the avatar because you probably already, you have an avatar worksheet, right? So, you know this is the person that I'm looking for, but for some reason, when they show up in real life, like adding or requesting to join a group, people totally lose sight of what they're trying to do here. So, you have to stay in alignment. If you want people to have conversations in your group that mean something, not just basic conversation ... Do you like paperback, or do you like hardback books? Right? Real conversation. You need to stick to the avatar that you started with at the beginning of the funnel, and you're only letting those people in.
Kendra Perry: And so, how can you make sure you're only letting the right types of people into your group?
Joanna: So, you'll go to their profile, and you'll look at this is your avatar come to life. Do they fit the avatar? What things are they talking about? In the health space, are they sharing motivational stuff, or are they sharing memes? You'll see it on the profile, and if you don't, then you don't know what your avatar looks like, which means you need to practice looking at this is who I resonate with.
Kendra Perry: So, it sounds like before you even create a Facebook group, you need to ... and I mean, this comes down ... This is true for so many things. You need to have your ideal client. You need to figure out who that person is and who you're actually talking to. I feel like a lot of health professionals and newer health coaches, they're very resistant to niching down. I think there's a lot of fear around it, and I totally get it because I felt the same fear. You're worried about turning people away, but I really do believe the more specific you can be about who you're helping, the more successful you're going to be in the long run.
Joanna: So, if you're not specific with who you're helping, people don't know how to help you. The way that people who have niche down, the way they got ahead is because people knew how to help them. They knew how to send referrals because, now, I know exactly what you do. They know what things to recommend you for. They know where to tag you, and when you do five separate things, they tag you for nothing. You'd be surprised how much niching down cracks open a network for you.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I agree, and I think in the end, I help women in their 30s and 40s dealing with fatigue and burnout, but I get dudes coming to me all the time. I have dude clients who just come to me, and they're like, "I know you help women and this, but I really like your videos," and I'm not going to turn them away necessarily. If I have room for a client, and they seem committed, then I'll work with them, right? It doesn't mean that you necessarily turning people away. People need to know how to find you because if you help everyone, really, I think your help no one.
Kendra Perry: Cool. Very cool. And so, I feel like some of the maybe struggle that health coaches have specifically with building engagement in a group is that what we're, I guess, the topic that our group is going to be created around sometimes can be very person, right? And maybe people aren't always wanting to engage because they're embarrassed. Maybe they don't want to get on there on a post and talk about their heavy period or their menstrual cramps or their migraines or their loose poops or something like that. Do you have any tips for how to break through and get to those people and help them engage better when maybe there's a bit more of a sensitive topic at play?
Joanna: Yes. So, I want to tell these people that think their topic is so sensitive, nobody's ever going to talk about it that you're not special, and you're not the only one that thinks that because people who deal with groups around recovering alcoholics have the same thing. If you're a money mindset coach, it's the same thing. People don't want to talk about their money in front of other people. Groups about hormones, they get sensitive, and they, "I need to message them." So, this happens a lot, but conversation still happens. It still happens. So, it depends on ... So, conversation is a loaded word. You can have heavy conversation. You can have light conversation. So, when it comes to sensitive topics, we would probably want to have light conversation. Give them an option. So, with every post that we're putting out, we're giving them options because that's how they understand how you want them to respond back. Though, if I'm bringing up a heavy conversation, I will ask for a light response in return, so, "Who here has dah, dah, dah? Yes or no." They can participate, but they don't have to get in detail, and you gave them direction and permission to do that.
Joanna: If you have a light post that you want a heavy response on, so this gets a little tricky, but if you are trying to drive sales for something, you would want to move the conversation into messenger. So, that way, they are opening up, and you are having a sales conversation, removing roadblocks, and this is why it matters that in the group, you're taking these things out, and you're addressing them because then, you get less of these same problems in messenger, right? So, you have the conversation with them, and then, it gets to a point where you say, "I can help you with that." And then, it's a sales conversation. Otherwise, they're not allowed to keep messaging over and over again and getting more of your time. That is very [crosstalk 00:25:13].
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I feel like it's a fine line, right? Some people really do just want free information, whereas other people are serious about speaking with you about a potential working relationship together, and I guess you need to figure out where that fine line is and when to cut it off, and I think a big part of it is you need to be in control. You need to be a leader. You need to be standing in a position of power and not ... teaching people how you want them to engage in your group and being kind of like the knowledgeable leader and not just letting the group kind of create a mind of its own, right?
Joanna: Exactly. So, I work for [Brad Newman 00:25:52] who talks about ... So, this gets into a little bit of a sales conversation here, but it helps because this is where you would draw the line. There is a difference between helping someone, and then, there's a difference with letting them continue to tell their stories. So, their stories are what brought them to the call, and it's the story that's going to send them to your messenger. Do you allow them? And you'll see it clear as day now. Do you allow them to keep telling the story, or do you offer them the solution that they've been waiting for? And then, you take the story that you've been given, and then, you repurpose that within the group so that way, the other people that are telling themselves the stories are now hearing that message.
Kendra Perry: I really, really love that. That's awesome. Yeah. Because I guess we want people to share their stories, but we want them to want a solution, too. We don't want them to be in victim mode and people just not actually ... just wanted to dump stuff on you and not actually wanting a solution or to tell you why it's not possible for them to see success in whatever their issue is, right?
Joanna: Right. It's a disservice to them to not offer a solution.
Kendra Perry: Right. Very cool. Okay. So, let's talk a little bit about different types of ways to post into a group because I know there's all these cool group features that you can use, and what are some of your favorites?
Joanna: So, again, it will always come back to what is the type of group that you have, and we rattled off like seven or eight different types. So, it would depend on ... It's really cool. You can create this world based on the features that they give you, one being the marketplace where you got to set up units. You could also set up a marketplace, and that's where people would network and sell. So, you can really design whatever experience you want with the features they're giving. The most popular one is probably the units.
Kendra Perry: And is that relatively new? I first saw that in Lindsay's course, and I was like, "Wow. This is awesome."
Joanna: It's probably like a year and a half old.
Kendra Perry: Okay. So, I am behind the times.
Joanna: Yeah, and so, it's taken people a while to get used to it, to know how to navigate and to know that it's there or to look for it. So, people are catching on now. So, with units, if people are learning something from you, they're really cool. Also, if you want to map out a journey for them, you could do a first module with an introduction. So, let's say you're in a free group. With free groups, think about when you're added into one how confusing it is, and you have to learn all the posts are out of order, and you don't know who's who. So, units work really well to help organize like, "Hey, if you're new to me, start here," and you can link to your intro video. You can link to, "Here's my freebie if you haven't gotten it yet. Listen to my podcast." So, you would just make these posts, and then, just curate it under that first unit.
Joanna: It's also a really good chance to start linking to sales posts. So, that way, "Hey, I'm meeting you. I'm talking to you." And then, you progress them through. Okay. Some other things, I really love tags, but not all groups have tags. So, on your post, you can categorize things. So, if I'm looking for tomatoes, on the side, I can actually click on the tag called tomatoes, and then, all the posts that have been put up about tomatoes are tagged tomatoes. Facebook [crosstalk 00:29:52]-
Kendra Perry: So, when you say, did you mean in the little menu on the left side, you can have ... or where do tags specifically show up?
Joanna: They're on the right side.
Kendra Perry: The right side. Okay.
Joanna: Yeah. So, where it says invite members, they're usually right under there if you have it, and then, you'll see it on your post. It'll say "add topic" right under your name when you post. So, there's no rule that I know of for why do some groups have tags, why do some not.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Sometimes, when Facebook rolls things out, it happens really unevenly.
Joanna: It does. Yeah. They don't update previous groups. They just ... Yeah. They do what they want.
Kendra Perry: Okay. I have to see if my groups have that because I love that. Okay. What else?
Joanna: Yeah. The tags are fun, and it makes it really easy for you because if someone says, "Kendra, I'm looking for something on bone health," and then, you have a whole tag for that, all you do is say, hey, on the right side, click on it, and it'll pull up 20 posts.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. That's awesome.
Joanna: [crosstalk 00:30:54] organize for you. Yeah. So, I like going live in groups because even if you don't have everyone on there live, and most people don't show up live.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Very true.
Joanna: So, you got to get over it. If two people show up, so what? Most people catch the replay, and then, it happens over a couple of days. So, two hours later is not a good time to judge engagement. So, live versus video, what's the difference? It's energy, and they know that you just showed up to be yourself because you have to when you're live. When you're on video, you could always do multiple takes, and you get to choose the version that we get to see, but when you're live, it's you, and it's authentic, and if you made a mistake, so what? We're still rolling.
Kendra Perry: Funny things happen on live video all the time.
Joanna: Exactly. Yeah, but it's always a good shot of energy into the group, and it feels different from video. So, I would say go live at least once a week in your group because it just stirs things up, and when do you do it? It really doesn't matter. I mean, whenever because most people are going to catch the replay anyways.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah, and I think video is just, it's so powerful these days, and that live video, too, because I think, yeah, another common theme that I hear in the marketing world is people are sick of perfect, curated content. They don't buy from brands. They buy from people, and people want to see your personality. That's how they connect to you. They want to be like, "Oh, wow. This girl's pretty funny. I could be friends with her. I feel like if we met up at a party, we would be instant friends." That's what you want people to feel, right?
Joanna: Yeah. A level of access, and groups give you a level of access that the other platforms don't.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I feel like Facebook, with all their new changes rolling out, they are so much about wanting people to have conversations and wanting people to engage and have these meaningful conversations. I feel like that's really what they're pushing their platform towards. So, when you can create that in a group, it's going to do well in the algorithm as well.
Kendra Perry: Do you ever use the poll feature? Do you recommend using that to get information from your group? Because that's one of my favorite tools.
Joanna: Yeah. So, polls are also an excellent option when you want to have those heavy conversations, and you just let people click A, B, or C.
Kendra Perry: I find when you do that, a lot of people will respond because it's easy to just check off a box. For my course I have going on right now, I want to know what do people want for support after the course ends, and I think have 60 people in the group, and 40 people responded, which is great. That's a pretty good representation of the entire group, right?
Joanna: It is. It's low involvement for them, but they can still have a voice. I would get creative with polls. I get creative with all the features just to see what can I do, but Brad, in his group, it's about sales. So, when people make sales, they'll ring the bell, and they ring this cowbell. So, we are having on Sunday a quarterly cowbell ceremony where we're honoring the ... We have five awards to give out to people in the group, and so, there's a reason behind it, but loudest cowbell ringer, that's the person that engages the most. So, we are rewarding that person for being so active. So, what we did is we set up five different polls, and we let people vote, and yeah, there were some people that had never engaged in the group that, because they could just click, that was their chance to just say, "Yeah. This is my voice. I'm voting for this one."
Kendra Perry: Very cool.
Joanna: So, if you use a variety of those tools, maybe those people that are so busy that don't have time to engage in your group, a poll allows them to chime in every now and then. Different features can work with different people. Sometimes, people are visual. Sometimes, they're audio. So, I would play with all of them and just get creative.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and see what people actually want, and I think I love the poll feature for just figuring out what should I be talking about, what topics are you interested in learning about, and then, it's like, "Great. I have the next three coaching call topics."
Joanna: Exactly. Yep.
Kendra Perry: And people may actually show up live.
Joanna: Yeah, and it was low effort by both parties.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love what you said too about just rewarding the engagement. In my paid membership group, I always run contests. We have monthly challenges that help them work towards a goal or create a habit to help them move towards their health goals, but the more they engaged, the more they'll get entered to win some contest. I love contests and that sort of thing, and so, that really ... I mean, Facebook loves that, right? You have lots of people engaging and posting and people supporting each other, and I feel like by doing that, people are just more likely to see your posts in their feed, right, if lots of people are engaging.
Joanna: They are, and there's another phenomenon behind that, which is that it measures time. So, with contests, it's super easy to follow a journey of one week or five days or however long it is because they can see it. They can see, "Oh, five days, we're on day three of five," versus when you're not in a contest, and the group is just open, and then, they just wander, right? So, challenges will always ... accountability. Time containers always do really, really well.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I mean, I love it and super fun, and I think what's so cool about creating a community, too, is that you're the expert. Typically, in our industry, we're going to be having quasi health support groups where people are there to get supported, and you're there to support them, but when everyone else starts supporting each other, it's amazing, and that's one of my favorite things about my membership is when somebody goes on there, and they're having a hard day. They feel like crap or whatever, and they're venting. Like, I'll come on there later and see 50 comments of everyone supporting them and being like, "Hope you feel better. Do you want to talk? You can call me." And some people have actually met up in person who live in the same area. So, it's very cool how you can kind of be the connector of people, especially in the health industry. The biggest thing when you're sick is that it's very isolating. People feel very alone.
Joanna: So, this reminds me of this show I was watching yesterday about ... It was one of those experiments where they would give these kids one marshmallow, and if they could wait 10 minutes, they would get two marshmallows, and only one was able to actually make it, but then, he got two marshmallows, right? And so, this is when it comes ... This is exactly what people do with their Facebook groups. If you are willing to curate people that are involved, that are your avatar, that are your messenger to help you spread your message, you will get that second marshmallow, which is exactly what you just described. They take over the group for you, and then, you actually don't have to do anything. You can go live once a week, but you don't have to do any involvement because your people have found each other, and that was your only job in all of this, right, was to get them into one spot. They have found each other. They will entertain each other. It's kind of like a house party where everybody's happy, and you can slip away upstairs, and nobody notices the party still keeps going.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I love that, and another thing I love to do, too, is just to you kind of get to know your group members, and you figure out who's an expert in what, and I have actually quite a few other health coaches in my group who just needed a health coach of their own, and I have one member who does a lot of mindset and tapping. And I mean, I'm not a woo woo person. I know nothing about that stuff. So, when people have questions about that or want to know more about that, I can always tag her, and she likes feeling like the expert, and she loves to just come on and give her two cents, and I think you can really utilize the expertise of your other members in a lot of ways as well to cut down the amount of work you have to do.
Joanna: Yep. And this is really the height that you want to reach in your group, is having those fans that are taking care of your group for you, and then, you are connecting them inside of your group. So, that way, your network and their network builds up together. This is what it's about.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. That's awesome. Do you have any suggestions for ... because I know some groups that I've seen out there get a little bit out of control. They kind of get overrun, and there's people posting promotional stuff in there, and it kind of starts leaving kind of the purpose of the group was originally built for. Do you have any tips for what you can do to prevent that from happening?
Joanna: Yeah. So, your group does require work. You can't walk away from it, and you have to stay true to what the purpose is and not let it stray because people will ... They will snatch it away really quick, especially if you have built a really large audience. They will try and just do anything to just get in front of them, even if the consequence is being deleted and removed. So, it comes down to curating the right members for your group. So, this is not only an advantage to you in finding the right members, but you're also protecting the people that you have already curated, and it's really selfish of people to think, "I have to hit this number no matter what it costs me or my community." A thousand members means nothing unless they're a thousand quality members that are your avatar and there to spread your message. So, a lot of times that happens because that's people's end goals, is just the numbers rather than focusing on bringing in the right people. So, if you have the right people ... and then, also, those raving fans we're talking about, they will shut those other people down if it starts getting out of control, and they'll say something.
Joanna: And also, the other thing is, sometimes, people just walk away because they're just tired. They're just tired of having to produce the content all the time. They're tired of having to be the face. They're tired of having to show up and provide. They maybe have let their boundaries down, and they let some people into messenger, and they're taking advantage of them, and then, they see the group as the source of that. So, they neglect it. I would say, and this typically happens with free groups, right? If it happens in paid groups, that's more of a culture fit for the member, but this is more about the free groups. So, you have to have a time container for yourself, and then, you have to relay that message to the people in the group. So, is this a pop-up group? Is this only here temporarily? Or is this open forever? If it's open forever, you have to show up. If you promise once a quarter, you have to show up once a quarter. If you promise once a month, show up once a month, but you have to show up. If you can't show up, show up to say you can't show up, and just shut the group [crosstalk 00:43:21].
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Okay.
Joanna: Breaking promises a lot is when people ... because your group goes on the back burner, and then, you're like, "Well, it was just a live in that group," and then, it just keeps getting brushed off, and then, you lose interest. They lose interest. If you're not in the group for a purpose, and you don't know the timeframe of it, which you should always know the timeframe of it, you will lose sight of everything, right? If I know this group is open for the next six months, I know what I need to plan for. If I'm just like, "Oh, I'll just grow it. I'll just grow it." I mean, that's people's strategy, like, "Just get more people in there."
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Kind of just like an afterthought in a way, hey?
Joanna: It is, yeah. So, if I'm getting ready for a launch, I have three months until launch. I know what I need to do three months before the launch. You always needs to have a focus for it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and another thing you said that popped out to me is being willing to protect the members who are in the group, and I guess not being afraid to kick people out when they don't fit in. I've done that in my membership group with somebody who was just bringing a lot of negative energy into the group, and I was like, "You know what? This doesn't fit. This is affecting the other members. So, unfortunately, this person has to go. I'll give them a refund, whatever." But I think you have to be willing to be the leader and realize when there's people who are damaging the community, right?
Kendra Perry: Which isn't always easy, but sometimes, you've got to do it, right?
Joanna: You do. Yeah. Do you want to make one person happy or 75 people upset. This goes down to that.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Exactly, and when your people are in the group, and they're engaged, they see that, right? They see that this person is a virus or bringing everyone down, and they're just waiting for you to do the right thing and take that person out.
Joanna: Exactly. So, one thing that we haven't touched on yet was about energy, and I did want to touch on that because I know that-
Kendra Perry: Sure. Lets do it.
Joanna: ... your crowd will get what I'm saying. So, this touches on how they affect the energy of the group, but most of your success is going to come out of being able to identify your energy patterns in your group, which is also why you need to have a timeframe on it. So, if I'm getting ready to launch, I know that the energy needs to start ramping up. So, people will call this momentum. They'll call it high engagement. So, those are codewords for energy, and you can push it up. You can bring it down. You are like the ... It's an orchestra for you, and you're the conductor, and there's all these strategies out here that do this, right? They'll start drumming up attention for your business and stuff. So, what's fun about the group is it actually captures all the energy, and you can take it and just play with it, and that's why launch groups are so fun because it's just all this energy being shot into the group, and then, so, let's take a paid group, for example, that supports a course. Let's say a course. This'll be easy to illustrate. So, when I join a course, I'm so excited. And so, I would put posts up that I'd just tap into that, like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited you're here. We're partying and everything."
Joanna: And then, will come some work, and then, I'll be like, "Oh, my gosh. Now falling behind. I'm falling behind," and then, now, I'm feeling bad, and now, I'm embarrassed. So, if you know ... and that's a very typical pattern of people buying courses, right? They get on this high from purchasing, and then, they realize there's work. [crosstalk 00:47:23]
Kendra Perry: Or they're either overwhelmed and ... totally.
Joanna: Yeah. It's more than what they thought it would be. It thought it was going to be more plug and play. So, they have all these emotions of having to deal with work. So, you can manipulate that ... manipulate, we'll use that very lightly ... by bringing it up, and you can say, "It was hard work when you signed up, and you knew that. Now, you're just mad because you actually have to do it." I would just put that in their faces like, "You knew this wasn't going to be easy, but you bought it anyways, and here we are. So, it's time to roll your sleeves up." So, then, you bring that back up, and then, they find it to be very intriguing because you look like a psychic like, "How did you know it was going to be hard?" So, you kind of just map out that whole journey. They'll think it's hard, and then, I'll bring that back up, and then, I'll get them some quick wins, and then, they're like, "Wow. Actually, you really know what you're talking about." And then, we just keep building on that momentum. So, that's energy. That's how it will move, especially if you have a launch where you have 100 people that came in at the same time, and they're all going through that. Everybody's excited. Everybody's coming back down. Everybody's like ... and then, it'll split.
Joanna: 50 percent will give an effort. 50 percent won't. So, if you start controlling those energy points, everyone will stay on the same page, the community is tighter, and your completion rate goes up, and then, you get retention, and then, people are willing, and then, all the things you said you could do is happening, and then, they're asking you what's next.
Kendra Perry: I love that. Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's just about being aware that, yeah, people especially in health, people are going to self-sabotage. They're going to fall off the wagon, and just telling them that, "Hey, I know that you feel off the wagon. I know that you ate that three pieces of chocolate cake, and now, you feel guilty, but that's okay. It's okay that you fell off the wagon. It's okay that you feel overwhelmed. Let's get you back up there. Let's get you back on the wagon." Because it tends to happen on a very specific point, especially with health. It's not like this linear progression of feeling better and better and better. It's very much a rollercoaster.
Joanna: Exactly, and everybody's seen that picture of success is not linear, and then, they show what success actually looks like. Everybody's saying that, but then, when it happens in real life, they can't make the connection that, that's what happened, that they just made the loop back, and then, they go up. So, it's inevitable. You will make mistakes, and so, if you give people space to say, "That's okay," and then, you tell them, "I was expecting you. I know that was going to happen anyways," they can forgive themselves much faster and just keep moving forward. So, when you see how the energy ... when you're trying to control the energy and everything, if you have someone that is behind you trying to control what you're doing by being negative or calling you out on things, there can only be one conductor here, and it has to be me. I'm the one that moves the energy in this group, not you.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. You don't want to have everyone else doing it because then, it just gets confusing, and you lost control, and you want to keep whatever vibe you decided to have in that group. You want to keep that as much as possible. That's very cool. So, I love when you're talking about turning community members into clients by sort of you kind of direct them into messenger, and then, have the sales conversation on messenger. Is that your favorite way to kind of turn community members into clients, or do you have other ways that you recommend people try?
Joanna: Yeah. That's going to be what's going to open up your conversation because that's where they're going to admit things to you that they wouldn't say in front of the group, but the group, you're using it to open up and just kind of poke around. It's like the dentist when they're just picking around at the beginning to see what needs work and what doesn't, and then, they step into your office, and then, you have the real discussion. People are not going to just tell you everything right up front, but they can give you permission to come find out, and what you're looking for is permission. So, the group will actually act as a permission slip like, "Hey, I see that. I get that. Step into my office, and let's talk about it." And then, it's like, "Okay." I also think that your free group is like your best advertising machine. Besides it producing the content for you on your social media, you can just be there with them. It's like sitting at a table with them and just asking them, "What do you need? What bothers you? What do you need?" And then, you get to have that conversation on display, and it just works for you. Yeah, I'm sitting here giving my energy to 10 people, but at the same time, 500 are seeing it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah. I love that, and I feel like you've made, in this conversation we've had, you've made me feel that Facebook groups are much easier than I'd made them out to be.
Joanna: Yes, and everybody's like that because I mean, there's a scarcity thing to this, too, right? It has to be hard, so I can sell you my course, but it's the easiest out of all of them because all you have to do is just say, "What bothers you?" That's the easiest. So, I don't have to go on Instagram and research hashtags or create a graphic or any of that. I don't owe anybody anything but figuring out what's up.
Kendra Perry: Yep, and then, you can just add a fun GIF to it, right?
Kendra Perry: Pretty much, every time I post to my group, yeah, there's no graphics. There's nothing curated. It's just the most random GIF that I can find, and people love it.
Joanna: Yes. So, with GIFs, GIFs are your biggest time-saving tool because I can connect with people. Let's say with both watch friends. If I know that I can connect with you and bond with you over Friends GIFs, I also, in a variety of Friends GIFs, can pick ... There's some where they're yelling. There's some where they're laughing. There's some where they're crying. So, I can pick the emotion, and I can match your emotion, and then, that also connected with you because we both love Friends, and then, it just looks funny.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Totally. I love the humor component of it because yeah, it's just so fun to get people to ... I love asking questions in my group like, "Tell me what you did this weekend with a GIF, or what did you want to be when you grew up with a GIF?" And then, it's hilarious, and people love it that you did that because they can just go down and see all these hilarious GIFs and try to guess what people are trying to say.
Joanna: And it's also a little alter ego. Sometimes, I pick GIFs of celebrities, like Jim Carrey, right? If I want to be exaggerating, I will pick a GIF from him, but he's like my alter ego.
Kendra Perry: So, you just use him all the time, or you could be like Beyonce and use all the Beyonce GIFs, right?
Kendra Perry: I love that. Yeah. I never really thought about that alter ego concept, but yeah, you could totally create that and have that energy into your group. Awesome. So, Joanna, where can people find out more about you if they want to dive deep into Facebook groups? I feel like you've provided us with so much great information. At the conference I was just recently at, I saw a talk on Facebook groups, and I was just like, "This isn't good at all." But what we just talked about in the past hour blew that out of the water. So, you are [crosstalk 00:56:05] so much good information. You should be talking at that conference next year.
Joanna: Let's just cut this out, and we'll send it to Social Media Marketing World.
Kendra Perry: Totally.
Joanna: [crosstalk 00:56:16]
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:56:16] for the conference.
Joanna: I love it. So, right now, I am calling home my business page, which is Experience Magic. So, I go live there. I do Magic Mondays [crosstalk 00:56:36].
Kendra Perry: Oh, I love it.
Joanna: So, on Mondays, I go live. So, I've been behind the scenes for a really long time, and so, I'm not really somebody that's able to be found yet. So, that would be the only spot to find me, but yeah, so, I have decided that this year, I've had a lot of people asking me ... They want to learn community. It's finally, after all this time, become a thing, and everybody wants to learn about it now. Yeah. So, I'm going to step out. It's nerve-racking. I get nervous seeing my face on camera, but got to do it, right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Totally, and I know we're both in Lindsay's course right now, and I think I saw one of your posts where you're like, "Ah, I'm so scared to come out from behind the scenes," because you have been still behind the scenes, but you have such a great method. I mean, you are such a great speaker, such a great teacher. I mean, you've got to get out there, girl.
Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. It's time.
Kendra Perry: Cool. So, it's Experiencing Magic is your Facebook page, and we'll be looking for you live every Monday for your Magic Mondays, and we'll be seeing more of you soon, a bit more of you soon, and I can't wait to learn more from you about communities. I'm going to go on your page and eat it up.
Joanna: Yes. [crosstalk 00:57:58] thank you again for having me today.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. No problem. It was so fun to hang out with you today. I really appreciate you being here, and thanks, everyone, for tuning in. We'll be back in a couple weeks, and I will be with my better half, Christine, next time, and guys, if you love this episode, and you love this content, let us know. Leave us a five star review on iTunes. That helps us get out in front of more people, and it just helps us know that you like what you're hearing and that you want us to create more episodes like this. So, thanks so much, everyone, and have a fantastic day.
What if your client's thyroid issue has NOTHING to do with their actual thyroid? Here you are recommending thyroid glandulars, thyroid complexes, thyroid nutrients and you are just wasting their time and money. Even worse...you may be getting them ZERO RESULTS.
When it comes to Hashimoto's and Hypothyroid, you need to look beyond the thyroid. Whitney Morgan, L.Ac, likes to call this the "thyroid landscape."
This means moving beyond the thyroid and looking at the factors that may be preventing the thyroid from working optimal and most of these things may have nothing to do with the thyroid itself.
Whitney is a licensed acupuncturist and diplomate of Oriental Medicine. She is the owner of SagePoint Acupuncture & Wellness LLC in addition to being on staff at Tucson Acupuncture Co-op. Whitney has extensive experience as a functional nutritionist and serves as a clinical adviser for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, Inc. Whitney. Whitney has obtained additional certifications as a Primal Health Coach and Gluten Practitioner. Whitney lives in Tucson Arizona with her husband and two dogs.
Book an appointment with Whitney: https://snapappointments.com/whitneymorgan
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Kendra Perry: Hello, hello, everyone. Welcome to another awesome, unbelievably amazing episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am your host, Kendra Perry. And I am so happy to be joined by my co-host, Christine Hansen, who looks lovely, has amazing lipstick on as always, and almost didn't make it today, so I feel extra lucky.
Christine Hanse: See, and I still had time to put on my lipstick. It's like, there's priorities in life, you know?
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I mean, you look fantastic as always, Christine. And I'm so happy to be here with you.
Christine Hanse: Okay, darling. I'm never getting tired of this. I will never say, "Please stop."
Kendra Perry: We like to flatter each other. And guys, as always, we have a really great episode lined up for you today. We're going to be talking about the thyroid. And when I was, "Okay. We need to talk about the thyroid. Who should we get on?" I instantly thought about Whitney Morgan, who is an old colleague of mine. I used to work with Whitney when I worked for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, and she is one smart cookie. And she is on with us today. And just to give you guys a little bit more info on Whitney ... and I always slur or stumble over my words when I read people's bios, so bear with me, 'cause I get really nervous about it for some reason.
Kendra Perry: So Whitney is a licensed Acupuncturist and Diplomat of Oriental medicine. She is the owner of Sage Point Acupuncture and Wellness, LLC, in addition to being on staff at Tuscan Acupuncture Co-op. I'm doing good so far. Whitney has extensive experience as a Functional Nutritionist and serves as a Clinical Advisor for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition Incorporated. She has obtained additional certifications as a Primal Health Coach and Gluten Practitioner. She lives in Arizona with her husband and her two dogs. Welcome, Whitney. Thank you so much for being here.
Christine Hanse: Yay!
Whitney Morgan: Thanks. I'm glad to be here. And I didn't put on lipstick this morning, so [crosstalk 00:01:53].
Christine Hanse: It's not morning. It's 6 PM, right? I had lots of time.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, Christine's in Europe, so she's in the future.
Christine Hanse: I don't look like this in the morning. Yes. I'm in the future. Exactly. I don't look this good-
Kendra Perry: I'm still on my first coffee, so.
Christine Hanse: [inaudible 00:02:07]
Kendra Perry: Awesome.
Christine Hanse: [inaudible 00:02:10]
Kendra Perry: Whitney, I'd love to know, 'cause I really find you to be such an expert on the thyroid. I've learned a lot from you, just advising with you on tests with Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, and we used to also do webinars together and talk about test results. Why do you like to focus on the thyroid, and how did you become such an expert in it? I'd love to know that.
Whitney Morgan: Well, it's interesting, because as you know, when you worked for FDN, there was always projects in the works, right? Different webinars to be produced. And I got tapped. Reed said, "Hey, do you want to do a webinar on thyroid?" And you know, I'd been a clinical advisor for a while, and I was comfortable with thyroid labs, and I said, "Sure!" But then, preparing the webinar, actually I realized how much I didn't know. So it really was going through that process of doing lots of research, and pulling all of these various threads together that I think improved my expertise. I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert on the thyroid, but I'm on my way. And so, you know, it's all about learning, right? You just got to keep learning. So I was really interested in it, and just kind of dived in. And so, here we are.
Christine Hanse: Well, I can say you definitely came over across as a expert to me, because I'd looked at that webinar, and I was just like, "Oh my god, this is saving my life," because I promise every single client I work with has a thyroid issue. And maybe what's most important, every single client tells me that they've had looked into their thyroid, and they've been told that everything is okay.
Whitney Morgan: Everything's fine, yep.
Christine Hanse: That, and that every practitioner out there who's listening has had the same scenario. And if you don't know better, you will just take that for granted. Right? So okay, they had a test done, their practitioner said, "Everything's okay, so let's not look at that." Why might that not be the best idea?
Whitney Morgan: Well, you know, I think it's a common occurrence like you said, and it's not just the thyroid. It happens with your basic annual blood work too. It's like, "Oh, I had all these tests run. I do it every year, and everything's fine." But you know, in the functional world, we don't wait for diagnosis or pathology. We're looking for patterns before things really go crazy, before the wheels fall off the bus. But most people who come to see practitioners like us, they've already had chronic issues for so long, and unfortunately when they do get their thyroid checked, traditional docs aren't running all the markers. They're just maybe doing TSH or maybe T4, T3 if you're lucky, but that's about it.
Kendra Perry: Right. And what is the comprehensive thyroid panel? What should that actually look like? 'Cause yeah, I see it all the time. People come with their TSH and that's all they got, and you're kind of like, "Well, I mean, that's a small piece of a bigger puzzle."
Whitney Morgan: Right. Right. Well, I think it's important to look at TSH and free T4, free T3. Those are some primary markers that most people are comfortable with. But then reverse T3 is super important, as is thyroid-binding globulin and of course the antibodies are really important. I look at thyroid globulin too, but that's more of a tumor marker. But still, every once in a while, I see that it's really elevated and that's an issue to refer out for follow-up. So really, I think you need all of those things in a complete thyroid panel, at least in the initial test. And then once you get a sense of the lay of the land, then maybe your follow-up testing can be a little more strategic. But it's actually so cheap, I tend to run a complete panel every single time.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Hanse: Yeah, me too. So maybe explain to us why it's so important. Like, why is TSH and T4 not enough?
Whitney Morgan: Okay. Well, you know, TSH is really just the signal, right? So it comes from the pituitary and it says, "Hey, thyroid gland, there's not enough hormones circulating. Make more." It's just the signal. So it is a measurement of that feedback loop. So what's going on in the body that signaling the hypothalamus and the pituitary to determine whether or not we need more or less thyroid hormone production. So it's an important marker, but it does change pretty ... it has a wide range. Let's just put it that way. And it can fluctuate throughout the day, so it really depends on when you get your thyroid tested, are you testing it at the same time every day? So there are certain nuances to relying on TSH. But that's really a marker to evaluate a signal. That's really it. And then you have free T4 and free T3. Of course, the majority of what the thyroid produces is T4, and then it's converted into T3, which is the active form of the hormone that docks into all the cell receptors and is that metabolic driver.
Whitney Morgan: But there's also reverse T3. So reverse T3 is really important, because if you think of free T3 as the brakes, let's rev up that metabolism, get things going. I mean, I'm sorry, it's the gas. Reverse T3's the brakes. So these two aspects of the thyroid hormone compete with each other at the cell receptor site. So someone could have plenty of free T3 and look normal on paper, but if they have more reverse T3 than they should, they can still be showing up as having real hypothyroid symptoms and be sub-clinically hypothyroid, even though their free T3 looks normal.
Kendra Perry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine Hanse: Yeah. I think that's super important to understand.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. And so how often do you see thyroid issues in your patients? Like is this something that you come across quite frequently?
Whitney Morgan: Yes. In fact, I think once in a blue moon, I see a complete panel that looks textbook normal from a functional standpoint. And that's important, because these standard reference ranges for the various things we're measuring, they're pretty wide. And so when a traditional doc's looking at them, they say, "Oh. You're fine." But looking through functional, the ones of a functional reference range, we can see this kind of sub-clinical stuff show up much earlier, and start addressing it and intervening.
Christine Hanse: Yeah. It's like when I talk to my clients, I just tell them, "People don't go and get their thyroid tested when they feel super duper cool. They go when they have issues." So it's just a statistic. It's a statistic from extreme cases, so it's extreme ranges. And just because it means that you're not an emergency, doesn't mean that it's not impacting your lifestyle. And I think that's a little bit where people get lost, because they're not an emergency, but it is impacting their lifestyle which is not the territory of our more emergency-orientated doctors. Which is fine, but I mean, that's where Functional Diagnostics is where they find their place, basically.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. And what I see quite frequently is someone might have free T3 levels that look pretty solid, and might even be at the low end of the functional range, but when you look at their ratio of reverse T3 to free T3, they're so out of balance that they're not getting the full benefit of the free T3 hormone that's circulating. Or, what I also see, is thyroid-binding globulin being too low or too high, and that's like the transporter. It's the bus that carries the thyroid hormone to its destinations for conversion or to the destination cell. The cell receptors. And if there's not enough buses moving or if there's too many buses moving, things can also get out of whack, so that's an important marker to look at. How is hormone being transported through the body? Is that happening in an efficient way?
Kendra Perry: And so I want to talk a little bit about how things kind of go wrong with the thyroid. 'Cause in the thyroid course that you created for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition that both me and Christine have done, you talk about, I think you call it the thyroid landscape or the thyroid disorder landscape. And some of the things that actually play into the thyroid going out of whack that may actually not really have anything to do with the thyroid. Can you discuss some of those?
Whitney Morgan: Sure. Well, the first thing that comes to mind ... well, the first two things that come to mind, the liver and the gut. The liver produces the binding globulin that binds to the T4 and T3 for transport, and it's the primary site of conversion, both from T4 to T3, and from T4 to reverse T3. So if there's something going on in the liver, if there's a lot of liver congestion, if there's some detox issues, just overburden issues, anything that we consider sub-par function, then that can really throw thyroid function off. And then the gut is a big contributor too, because we need healthy gut flora to really produce adequate amounts of T3. So if you've got parasites or overgrowth of opportunistic bacteria, or you've got gut damage, leaky gut, things like that, that can impact thyroid function. And then of course, the circulatory system is a contributor, because that's your highway. That's your transportation system.
Whitney Morgan: And then of course the hypothalamus. Sometimes there can be things that are going wrong on the front end either with the hypothalamus or with the pituitary, so we call that maybe a tertiary or primary, secondary, or tertiary hypothyroidism. So sometimes you can have signaling malfunctions that happen. That's the brain. And so lots of things can affect the hypothalamus, of course, and the pituitary subsequently. So you think of anything that stresses out the adrenal system. That HPA axis. That can really impact how effectively the hypothalamus and the pituitary signal the thyroid gland.
Christine Hanse: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and when you think about it that way, it kind of seems like, "Well, no wonder so many people are having thyroid disorders," 'cause who's not getting exposing to toxins? Who doesn't have gut issues? We all run gut panels, all three of us do.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: We're always seeing infections. We're always seeing parasites. We're always seeing opportunistic bacteria. And you know, I think when you're a practitioner and you're working with someone who has thyroid disorder, you do have to look at the bigger picture. Because some people, they know they have a thyroid problem, so they're like, "What's wrong with my thyroid? What's wrong with my thyroid?" But you need to kind of take off the tunnel vision and look at the things that could be causing it, 'cause it sounds like, yeah, it could have nothing to actually do with the actual thyroid.
Whitney Morgan: Oh, absolutely. It's just that that's a common test that's run in the traditional world, whereas it's pretty rare for a traditional doc to be assessing the HPA axis or looking at the gut or the liver the way that we do. So I think chronic stress is just such an issue in our modern world, and when that hypothalamus, pituitary adrenal system is out of whack, that will inhibit the signal from the pituitary to the thyroid gland. So it will inhibit that TSH, and it will bring down T4 production. If you have too much cortisol circulating, it will inhibit the conversion of T4 to T3. Also, it drives up the production of reverse T3, because the body's trying to slow itself down, keep you safe, right? So it increases the competitiveness of reverse T3 to free T3, the cell receptor site. And then it also changes the cell receptor sensitivity to T3. So it's just this cascade of dysfunction that can occur, but it's origin might be in the adrenal system, and the thyroid is where maybe it first shows up in terms of any sort of traditional tests that are run.
Kendra Perry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine Hanse: Right. Agreed. So obviously sometimes it can also be a physiological problem. So I have actually lots of clients who I then send to an endocrinologist, or for example, just say, "Look, you might really need to look into this a little bit more if I can't help enough." And a lot of them have then come back and they've been diagnosed with ... what do you call it in English? Goiters? No. Cold knots, we call it in-
Whitney Morgan: Nodules? Nodules.
Christine Hanse: I think so.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah.
Christine Hanse: Like the non-
Whitney Morgan: Non-cancerous?
Christine Hanse: Yes. Exactly. So a lot of them come back with that, and they're super confused. So what would you give them as an advice? Also, as a practitioner, you're kind of, I think it's not in all of our [inaudible 00:16:33], especially if you're a general, generic, like a health coach or a nutrition coach. What would you recommend people to tell their clients or patients?
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. Well, you know, that's a good point, because what you're bringing up, like nodules or enlargement at the gland itself, those are kind of critical things you got to deal with. But that's what I call a branch issue. It's not a root issue. So that's what's showing up, and yeah, we need to intervene, but of course, most FDN practitioners are not medical doctors. So that's something where you got to tread lightly, because traditional medicine has its own way to intervene with that kind of a situation. But I think that the key is to focus on, "Okay, while your doctor is dealing with the branch, let's deal with the root." So we need to look at nutritional factors. Are there chronic nutrient deficiencies due to, I don't know, you've been on birth control pills for 20 years. That's an issue. Do you have some mineral deficiencies? What's your iodine status? How is your liver detoxifying? Do you have a lot of gut infections that are shutting down detoxification? Do you have heavy metal toxicity?
Whitney Morgan: I mean, there's so many things that underlie all of these root issues. So even things like, hey, if someone comes back and they say, "Oh, my doctor said my TPO antibodies are 400 and something, and so my doc says we're just going to watch that." Right?
Christine Hanse: Yep!
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:18:19]
Whitney Morgan: 'Cause they have nothing to offer, right?
Christine Hanse: Yeah.
Whitney Morgan: But we know, "Okay, that means that this is an autoimmune issue where your immune system is attacking your thyroid gland. There's tissue destruction. We need to find out what the trigger is, so we're going to be running some ... we're going to look at the gut, we're going to look at food sensitivity issues. There's something that's the trigger." Right? Usually it's gluten. But it could be heavy metals. It could be gut infections. But that's where we can get a lot of work done that then those branches get healthier, because you're dealing with the soil and the roots, and the branches kind of start taking care of themselves, if that makes sense.
Kendra Perry: Oh, that makes total sense.
Christine Hanse: Beautiful metaphor. Why haven't I heard that before?
Kendra Perry: I love it.
Christine Hanse: I love it too. Makes total sense.
Whitney Morgan: It's a Chinese medicine philosophy. That's the whole basis of Chinese medicine, is root and branch. In fact, if you read anything about Chinese medicine, it's very poetic and esoteric, but they talk about the doctor being like a gardener. Of course, the branches might need a little pruning here and there, and you have to address things, but if you're not putting the majority of the attention in the soil and the roots, the tree is never going to be healthy.
Christine Hanse: Kendra, I see both of our eyes and our brains going like, "I really want to learn this [inaudible 00:19:44]."
Kendra Perry: Totally. I know, right?
Christine Hanse: [inaudible 00:19:49]
Kendra Perry: Always.
Christine Hanse: [inaudible 00:19:50] my brain is already fried, but it's on my to-do list for my next life. [crosstalk 00:19:53]
Kendra Perry: I know. I know. There just needs to be more hours in the day to take all the courses and learn everything I feel like I need to learn.
Christine Hanse: Yeah. It's like I've been attracted to that topic for so long, and it's just like, "Ugh." Yeah. [crosstalk 00:20:08]
Kendra Perry: It's very cool. And I know you know a lot about gluten sensitivity, and sort of that non-celiac gluten issue, and can you talk about how gluten can be a trigger? 'Cause I know many people who have Hashimoto's, so they have hypothyroid, and they continue to eat gluten, and I'm always like, "That's a mistake." And why would that be a mistake?
Christine Hanse: [inaudible 00:20:31] much?
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. Yeah, it is a mistake. Okay. So celiac disease is kind of a narrow, more limited form of gluten sensitivity. It's way on one end of the spectrum, right? And maybe you're looking at one percent of the population. But up to 20 or 30 percent of the population, we have non-celiac gluten sensitivity. So they don't have that gut autoimmune process going on, but there's tomato, tomahto. It really doesn't matter, because it's still both set you up for the same kinds of autoimmune disorders down the road. So what we do know, what the research is showing, is that almost half of people with gluten sensitivity of any form will manifest some type of thyroid dysfunction. And just one exposure to gluten can set off an inflammatory cascade that can last for several weeks to several months. So there's no such thing as eating a little bit of gluten, right?
Kendra Perry: Right.
Whitney Morgan: So a few things to understand about gluten. It sets the stage for gut permeability in everyone. It doesn't matter if you're sensitive to gluten or not. Gluten creates a more permeable gut because it increases zonulin production. And zonulin is that enzyme that kind of hyper-regulates the tight junctions when it's in the gut in increased amounts. Those tight junctions will kind of open up a lot. So then you get leaky gut, and you get things moving through the gut that shouldn't, like partially digested food proteins. So you've got these big food antigens going into the gut, or viruses, or metals. All kinds of stuff, right? So like all grains, also gluten has a toxic lectin in it. And so even beside the zonulin issue, all grains have these lectins that create more permeability in the gut as well.
Whitney Morgan: So in this sense, gluten is kind of like the mob boss of the grains. It's like the one that does the most damage, and it can be an exacerbating factor in all thyroid autoimmunity. In addition to that, the gluten protein, the structure of it is really big and complex and kind of clunky, and it can look a lot like other things. One thing is the thyroid. Particularly when we're talking about wheat germ agglutinin, which is the lectin part of the thyroid gland. You kind of get this double whammy, because the wheat germ agglutinin, if it gets through the gut, will actually ... it's really sticky, and it can stick to the thyroid gland. And then you get the immune system trying to destroy the wheat germ agglutinin, and in the process, it does a lot of tissue damage. But then there's also this mimicry, where gluten can start looking a lot like thyroid tissue as well, so then you have the immune system going, "Oh. I'm going to make antibodies not only to gluten, but to this thyroid thing here, because that looks way too much like gluten for me to be comfortable." Right?
Kendra Perry: Right.
Whitney Morgan: And there's almost 100 percent correlation, almost, between Hashimoto's and gluten sensitivity. And to make matters worse, most people who come to us will say, "Oh, I have hypothyroidism." Rarely do I hear, "I have Hashimoto's."
Christine Hanse: Yeah.
Whitney Morgan: But almost everyone's diagnosed with hypothyroidism. Right? But most hypothyroid cases are undiagnosed Hashimoto's cases. They just haven't been properly assessed. So when you follow that logic, it's like okay, if you have hypothyroidism, you probably have Hashimoto's. If you have Hashimoto's, you probably are gluten sensitive. No one should be eating gluten if they've got a thyroid issue. Nobody.
Christine Hanse: I think nobody here has any [inaudible 00:24:45] condition [inaudible 00:24:51]. All the clients I've had, I only had one single client who didn't show positive to food sensitivity when it came to gluten. All the others had a big red bar.
Whitney Morgan: Right. Well, and then when you jump down that rabbit hole, then there's that additional thing of, "Well, there's all of these other foods that aren't gluten, but they cross-react with gluten." So it's not just the gluten you might have to get rid of. It's the dairy, and the corn, and the yeast, and the rice, 'cause those things look too much like gluten to the immune system.
Christine Hanse: Mm-hmm (affirmative). [crosstalk 00:25:26]
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I know there's a test that ... is it the Cyrex Array 4 that tests for cross-reactive gluten sensitivity?
Whitney Morgan: Yeah, and up until recently, I pretty much used exclusively Cyrex. So the Array 3 test for gluten sensitivity, and then the Array 4 looks at all of these cross-reactive proteins. And it's an IgG, IgA looking at the whole food protein. Now I've stopped using the Cyrex because now we have the Wheat Zoomers. We have all these Zoomer tests from Vibrant Wellness. The Wheat Zoomer is great. It's cheaper than the Cyrex Array 3, and inside the Wheat Zoomer, you have an intestinal permeability panel as well. So you get a bigger bank for your buck. You can also add on the celiac genes for an additional 99 bucks if you want.
Christine Hanse: [inaudible 00:26:22]
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. They also have a Dairy Zoomer and a Corn Zoomer and a Lectin Zoomer, so like the Wheat Zoomer, these other Zoomers are looking at these foods at the peptide level, breaking them apart into all their constituent parts, so they get a more granular view of how sensitive someone might be to the little itty bitty parts of the food. Whereas IgG and IgA is just looking at kind of like the whole big bad protein. So I will run Wheat Zoomer, Dairy Zoomer, Corn Zoomer, Lectin Zoomer, and then I will add to that their 96 food panel. And that's just the basic IgG, IgA to 96 foods. If I run all of those, the only thing I'm not testing that cross-reacts with gluten, is millet. It's the only thing.
Kendra Perry: Okay. Millet's gross anyways. Who wants to eat that crap?
Christine Hanse: I know. Dog food.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. And most people don't. And it's not a common ingredient in gluten-free foods anyway. But a word of warning, because I had a very interesting experience recently where I usually run an Array 3, at least one Array 3 a year, and two Array 4s on myself a year just to make sure that everything is kosher, 'cause I have celiac disease. I've never come up positive with any cross-reactivities. So I live a primal lifestyle pretty much, but I'll have a little bit of raw, organic dairy. Small amounts. And then maybe on a Sunday or so, I'll go way off the reservation, get crazy, and have some corn chips maybe.
Christine Hanse: Oh my god! Oh my gosh!
Whitney Morgan: I know, right?
Christine Hanse: Crazy girl!
Whitney Morgan: But I figured, "Hey, I don't have cross-reactivities. I'm cool." So then I ran all these Zoomers on myself. Not only were my gluten antibodies elevated, but I was super reactive to dairy, super reactive to corn.
Christine Hanse: Wow.
Whitney Morgan: I also came up positive with a rice lectin, so I'm reactive to rice.
Christine Hanse: There's like nothing left. It's like-
Whitney Morgan: But the interesting thing is the 96 food panel that also has dairy and corn on it, I came up non-reactive on the IgG, IgA. So it just really ... it was a big "Ah ha" for me. It just goes to show you that IgG, IgA is good, but it's not enough for some people, because my level of sensitivity is such that I really need to be looking at things at the level of the peptide in order for it to show up. So now I'm a big Vibrant Wellness fan.
Kendra Perry: That's very cool. I actually have the Cyrex Array 4. I've been trying to run it from Canada with zero success. I just can't make it happen. I've had the run-around. [crosstalk 00:29:24] I've tried multiple blood draw places, and they're like, it's not ... they don't run it fast enough or something, so I'm like, "Okay." Now I'm like, "Maybe I should look into the Zoomer." But I think that's really interesting, what you say about the IgG, 'cause I see so many people ... like one of the main tests people bring to me when they start working with me is the food sensitivity test, and it's like a Great Plains lab, or an MRT or something. I'm not dissing these companies, but sometimes stuff doesn't come up. And they're like, "Oh, well, gluten didn't come up, so I'm good," and I'm like, "Mm, I don't know. You probably aren't."
Whitney Morgan: Yeah.
Christine Hanse: Let's just try to cut it out, and usually they see the reaction so quick, but yeah, it's super hard. I'm in Europe, and so getting labs over here is really difficult, especially from independent. So the one that I usually run is the ZRT, but they started to cut out RT3. Like, they're not testing it anywhere. So I don't know why. They have a disclaimer on their website. I forgot what they said, 'cause I was just annoyed and didn't read it. But it's been just a couple of months that they took that out of their panel, so I'm like, "Oh."
Whitney Morgan: Interesting.
Christine Hanse: Yeah. They're not testing that anymore.
Kendra Perry: I wonder why they'd do that. Yeah, you'd think they'd be progressing forward, not backwards.
Christine Hanse: I know. So it's ... I don't know what's happening there. But yeah, I need to find a new company that I can use for my clients up ahead. So not always easy.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I know. If you're in the US, you're good, but you're in like Canada and Europe, it's like sometimes it can be ... some things are really easy to do, but yeah, anything that requires a blood draw seems to be like pulling teeth over here.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah, and you know, what I see too is like you were saying, Kendra, people come to you with food panels. I see exclusive IgG panels. Like they're just getting the finger stick, or they're just, you know, Great Plains or whatever. And that's just half of what you need to be looking at anyway. Right? So they'll come up totally normal. "Oh, wheat's normal." Yeah, but that doesn't mean you're not having an IgA response to it. Right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Whitney Morgan: And about the MRT too, I stopped using it because ... well, for two reasons. One, you can't tell the difference between what's just an inflammatory reaction, what's an IgG or IgA reaction. Right? You can't make that distinction. And also, I've had two people who are celiac come up totally unreactive to wheat. My daughter, who's not celiac gluten sensitive, come up with unreactive to wheat. And then, I've had situations where I've had clients who absolutely know. It's like, "Hey, if I eat avocado, my throat starts to close up," and it comes up green. So it's just like [crosstalk 00:32:04]
Christine Hanse: That's not good.
Whitney Morgan: False negatives are not good, right? Particularly when we're dealing with clients who are looking for a reason to not have to take things out of their diet.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine Hanse: Yes! It's so harsh. They're like, "I can't eat anything." It's like [inaudible 00:32:20] eat stuff, you know? It's like [inaudible 00:32:22].
Whitney Morgan: Yeah.
Christine Hanse: Like, "Now my life's over." It's like, "Yeah. That's a tough one."
Kendra Perry: So Whitney, if I am a ... say I'm a health coach, and I have a client who has hypothyroid, what would be like the top three things I should be recommending to this person besides ... I think we've made a good point for getting gluten out at this point, so it's definitely one of them.
Christine Hanse: Very subtle.
Whitney Morgan: Well, yeah. I guess ... okay, so it depends. If your client is willing to do some additional testing and has some money to throw at that, then I'd want to know ... okay, I'd run a GI map to see what the gut infections are looking like. I would get a sense of metal toxicity, mineral status, whether that's an HTMA or the Quicksilver test that I like a lot as well. And I would also be looking at a micro-nutrient panel. So I want to say, "Okay, what are the nutrient deficiencies, and are there these other toxins?" You know, whether they're pathogens, endotoxins, or metals, what else is going on? It also could be that you might have to dig even deeper than that, and be looking at viruses and microtoxins. You just don't know.
Whitney Morgan: And then there are just the basic things that we know and we do every day, which is you need to remove the things from your life that are stressing out your HPA axis, right? You need to modulate that system, strengthen that system, and so all those lifestyle changes that go into that. So I would do a batch of additional testing. We always need to be looking at that root system, right?
Kendra Perry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Whitney Morgan: But let's say you've got a client who says, "I don't have any money. I can't do any of that. All I know is that I have hypothyroidism and I feel like crap." Okay. Well, I would definitely assume it's Hashimoto's. I would definitely assume that this person has a gluten sensitivity. I would put them on the AIP diet. They would have to eliminate all potentially cross-reactive foods, which if you're on the AIP, that does that, takes care of that. And they would be on glutathione. I'd check their vitamin D levels. They would be on vitamin D if necessary. Glutathione. Really high-dose fish oil. I'd have them on immune globulins, like The Microbiome now has the bovine serum immune globulins.
Kendra Perry: I love those products. They're great.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah.
Christine Hanse: I saw those too. Yeah. I couldn't get them, but I'm like, "I really want them."
Whitney Morgan: They're really good. So I would definitely do that, and then some Boswellia, some crocumin to kind of tamper down that inflammatory response. I might give them 100 micrograms of selenium, or 200 if their antibodies are elevated. So you kind of put everything together that's going to address the fundamental stuff in supporting the immune system before you even think about, "Well, am I going to do anything to encourage more T4 production?" Right?
Christine Hanse: Yes.
Whitney Morgan: Because it doesn't make sense to address the thyroid gland unless you've got all that immune system support in place. Right?
Christine Hanse: Yeah. Agreed. Yeah.
Whitney Morgan: But let's say you do. You get all that immune system support in place, and they make all those dietary changes. I would make sure they've got all the nutrients in their diet that we know contribute to adequate thyroid function, and then I would just maybe put them on a little Thyro-Gold, depending on what their numbers look like. Maybe a little Ashwagandha. Definitely some liver organ extract, 'cause it's super, super nutritious. These are just basic, fundamental things. You know? And that happens a lot. Some people, particularly if you're looking at throwing a bunch of money towards tests, and then have me throw a bunch of money at supplements, some people will just say, "I'll do whatever you tell me to do. I just need to put my money towards the supplements and the food." Right? So then I just assume the worst. I mean, really. And I'll even prophylactically treat people for parasites and bacterial overgrowth and yeast.
Whitney Morgan: Because I mean, that's what we used to do anyway. I remember a decade ago when it was just like the known thing that two or three times a year, you do a parasite cleanse. You just do that, right? So why not just do that? It's not going to hurt them, as long as you support detoxification. You support the liver. You make sure those pathways of elimination are open, and urine and stool and all of that. You do all of that, then I just prophylactically treat everything I can except for metals. I don't detox metals unless I've got hard data. That's just not cool.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, that's a dangerous thing if you're not in the right state to do it.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. Yeah. But, having said that, I will frequently put someone on the PushCatch kit from Quicksilver, and that will detox the little metals. It will bind up some metals and other things without actually actively going after stored metals. Right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I always have people on binders. I'll use a little bit of ... I don't know what's in the PushCatch, but I'll use BioCell's, so I think it's like a similar thing in the PushCatch [inaudible 00:38:13]. There's some silicon and-
Whitney Morgan: No. In the PushCatch, there's two supplements. So the push is the liver sauce, and that's got your bitters, dem, milk thistle, and R-Lipoic Acid. And then the catch is the ultra binder, and that has your Cytozen, IMD, which I believe is silica-based.
Kendra Perry: It's silica-based, yeah.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah, and your charcoal and your clay.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Whitney Morgan: And I add to that a PectaSol-C.
Kendra Perry: Mm. You know I love my supplements. [crosstalk 00:38:39]-
Whitney Morgan: -which is pectin. Then I put five drops of BioCell in there too. I just kind of like supercharge my binder.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Totally.
Whitney Morgan: I do binders every day. I mean, no matter what.
Kendra Perry: Me too. I have some PectaSol-C in my coffee.
Whitney Morgan: Yes.
Kendra Perry: That's how I always start my day.
Whitney Morgan: We need to do binders every day. It's too toxic of a world not to.
Kendra Perry: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Absolutely. I totally agree. Well, that was amazing. Honestly, that is so much information. I'm actually going to probably have to go back and re-listen to this episode and take better notes.
Christine Hanse: It was amazing.
Kendra Perry: Because yeah, that's some really actionable stuff, and some really ... because it is so common that ... you know, I have a friend who I will not name who has Hashimoto's, and they're like, "Oh, but I'm medicated for it, so it's not an issue. I'm taking Synthroid." And you're like, "Well."
Whitney Morgan: But that doesn't do anything to Hashimoto's.
Christine Hanse: Yeah, that doesn't fix it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Whitney Morgan: It doesn't do anything.
Kendra Perry: Maybe preventing you from dying, but-
Whitney Morgan: It can exacerbate some of the tissue destruction, you know, if you don't have other things in place. And another thing I wanted to mention to is simple things that practitioners can have their clients do. Stay out of swimming pools. Right?
Kendra Perry: Yes. Oh, my gosh.
Whitney Morgan: Get filters on your shower. Stay away from fluoride. Stay away from chlorine. Stay away from all of those chemicals. Those are the halogen chemicals, right? Halites, yeah.
Christine Hanse: Halites.
Whitney Morgan: That antagonize the thyroid, and actually compete with the thyroid hormone at the cell receptor site. So if you've got someone who's going to the gym every day and swimming, and they've got ... they're on, god, thyroid hormone replacement therapy, that's crazy. [crosstalk 00:40:21]
Kendra Perry: Or drinking tap water, or showering in tap water. [crosstalk 00:40:25] 'Cause if you're on municipal city water ... I mean, I'm like a broken record with this shit, but I'm always talking about the chlorine, the fluoride in your water. You're putting it into your system every day, and like you said, it competes with thyroid and pushes iodine off of the receptor, which you need [crosstalk 00:40:39] hormone. It's huge. Who's not getting exposed to that crap, right?
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. Yes, it is huge. [crosstalk 00:40:45] Then you know, just the simple things too, like B vitamins and zinc and selenium. I can't count the number of times I have clients who were on the pill for 15 plus years, and now they're dealing with hypothyroidism or Hashimoto's or whatever. It's like, "Well, yeah, of course." It's almost like a guarantee. You are going to get thyroid dysfunction if you've been on the pill for a long period of time. Just wait.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I see it all the time when I test people's minerals. Like their thyroid ratio is out of rate. Their copper toxic from all the estrogen they've been taking. And it's just unfortunate, because girls get put on it pretty young. I mean, I started taking it when I was like 15 or 16, and no one's getting the information of what it actually can do to your body if you use it long-term, unfortunately.
Whitney Morgan: No, it's the largest human experiment, right? Unregulated. Yeah.
Kendra Perry: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Oh, it's crazy. So Whitney, if people want to connect with you or learn more about you, where can they find you?
Whitney Morgan: Well, they can go to my website at sagepointacupuncture.com. Disclaimer here that I am going through a rebranding process, because I've shut down my private acupuncture practice, and I'm now doing community acupuncture at a local clinic here.
Kendra Perry: Oh, awesome. I love that.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. I love it too. It's awesome. So now my name confuses people. I'm going to be building a new website, changing my business name. It's going to be more just focused on the functional nutrition aspect of my business, so I'm completely separating them. But I'll still point my URL to my new website, so sagepointacupuncture.com will get you to me for sure.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. And you said you're located in Tuscan, Arizona?
Whitney Morgan: Tucson.
Kendra Perry: Tucson!
Whitney Morgan: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: Awesome.
Whitney Morgan: Everyone says Tuscan that isn't from here.
Christine Hanse: Even I knew that, and I'm not American.
Kendra Perry: Whatever, Christine.
Christine Hanse: Smart ass.
Kendra Perry: Awesome, Whitney. Well, we appreciate you so much having this conversation with us. This was very enlightening, and I think our audience will love it.
Christine Hanse: It's a brain fry. [inaudible 00:42:59]
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Total brain fry, but I feel like our audience likes being overwhelmed. They're like, "I feel overwhelmed, but I kind of [inaudible 00:43:04]." And guys, if you like what you're hearing, if you like this episode, make sure to hop on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, wherever. Give us that five-star review. We will give you a live shout-out on air. We will love you, and send you lots of kisses. So yeah, if you like what we're doing, that's the best way to support the show is just give us a quick review. Takes two minutes. And that will help us reach more people. So thanks so much, guys, as always. We very much appreciate you listening to our banter, and we'll see you guys again in two weeks from today. Bye guys.
Christine Hanse: Bye.
Whitney Morgan: Thanks guys. Bye.
Kendra: Hello, hello everyone! Welcome to the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am your host, Kendra Perry, and I'm joined today with my lovely and beautiful and sexy and unbelievable cohost Christine Hansen. She's got her glass of wine because it's night time for her and she's definitely going to be going ...
Christine: Saturday night it's bad ass rock star.
Kendra: It's Saturday afternoon for me. We're working on the weekend, working hard. But we are recording this episode kind of on the fly because we have some really important information to bring to you guys and we wanted to make sure that we got it to you as soon as possible. Because if you guys follow us on Instagram @360healthbizpodcast which you definitely should if you're not and you are following our stories, you would have seen that we met in person for the very first time. That was very exciting. We were at the Social Media Marketing World Conference and it was awesome. We definitely highly recommend it. It was time well spent and we learned quite a bit at the conference, and we really want to share some of the very powerful things that we learned because we believe it will help you growing your business.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. We were really lucky. There were tons of workshops, and every workshop that we took taught us something new and we definitely would drill it down to the three most important lessons that we're going to pack together here for you. So you're getting the conference on steroids basically.
Christine: Alright so [crosstalk 00:01:32]
Kendra: Arm. Give me that conference on steroids! Don't worry. It's not appropriate.
Christine: No, but I mean, since when are we appropriate? Oh guys. You should've been with us. Seriously, the conversations we had it was just ... It was hilarious.
Kendra: It was ridiculous.
Christine: Oh it was wonderful. Let's get started. The first thing we wanted to talk to you about was actually from the keynote talk, which was on the second day. Kendra and I, we had all-access passes so we actually started a day early in comparison to just the general public, which makes me feel very posh, and the keynote, the officially keynote, was on the second day by Michael Stelzner in the morning. And I think the main ... What you can drill everything down to that we heard at the conference was that it's not bigger and better anymore but better is bigger. And I love to hear that message because I've tried a long time to get numbers. Grow your email list, grow your Facebook page, grow numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers, and it really, really has come back to that's not the point.
And we saw that in influence on marketing, for example, coming to think of it. Kendra and I, we attended a conference that was basically meant for people who are looking for influencers.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: So we were basically listening in what we should provide, as people who are looking for influencers, and a very big takeaway was that micro and nano influencer. So nano influencer would be up to ... No. What was it? Nano first [crosstalk 00:03:08]
Kendra: I think nano is [crosstalk 00:03:09] below 10, 000.
Christine: I think-
Kendra: And then ...
Christine: Micro was up to 10, 000.
Kendra: Yeah. It was something like that, but for all you people who have less than 10, 000 followers [crosstalk 00:03:18]
Kendra: On Instagram, right?
Christine: Those are actually the hot influencers that companies are looking for, because it's niched, it's not diluted, you still have authentic fans there while there's only huge, huge, Instagram accounts where engagement is not necessarily there or when not genuine interest is there. So, I found that really interesting, and the whole conversation was along that line. So one case study that we were taught was that he did an experiment about one of their videos. They have a little show where they publish weekly videos, and he published it on Facebook and he published it on YouTube and he got over 20, 000 views on Facebook but it wasn't promoted because Facebook said it didn't perform too well. And he was wondering why, so he investigated and tracked all the different steps and it turned out that out of the 20, 000 people, and it was a little bit more I think, 19. Only 19 finished the video.
Christine: But YouTube, he had a lot less people who started watching ... I think it was just 2, 000-
Kendra: But he had about 60% finish.
Christine: Exactly! So [crosstalk 00:04:26]
Christine: 68% versus 19 [inaudible 00:04:28] people, right? So, the conversion is very different. His takeaway was you need to know which platform to use for what and again, it's not about quantity.
Christine: So, I loved this because Kendra and I, this is much more an integrity for what we do.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: We both don't have massive ... 20, 50, 000 people email us, but our businesses are very successful. So, I think this was really nice to hear and basically, we both said it's confirmation that what we're doing is right.
Kendra: Yeah, and I felt like I got a lot of validation and over that couple days of "Yeah, we're doing the right things," and I loved what he said about the Facebook thing because think about when you're watching a Facebook video. There's notifications popping up. Those little notifications pop up on the left now. Facebook doesn't actually want you to stay on and watch these long form video.
Kendra: They're trying to distract you, and that's why a lot of people aren't watching the video from start to finish that maybe is a 20 or 30 minute long video because they're so distracted by everything Facebook is trying to do. Whereas your YouTube people, they're on YouTube, they go on YouTube to watch videos, they are coming in without expectation and there's no distractions for the most part, right? They just see that video. So ...
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra: I thought that was really interesting. If you're gonna put all your effort into editing and creating this beautiful video series, it's probably gonna do way better on YouTube and you're probably gonna create better relationships that way than on Facebook.
Christine: It's definitely going to perform better. I mean, the science is there and also the statement that Mark Zuckerberg did was basically that they don't want people to waste time on social media, which is hilarious as he's running Facebook, but that was his statement. That they want to encourage people not to mindlessly idle on social media. So they want to be more targeted, they really want to perform more quality content, and they don't want people to just zone out and watch cat videos anymore. So, no basically.
Kendra: I know that's super fun to do.
Christine: Do tell that to the Dodo. The Dodo page is my downfall. I spend hours crying whenever I go to-
Kendra: Oh no! Why? What is it?
Christine: The Dodo is about rescue animals of all [crosstalk 00:06:43]
Christine: Animals and rescue and stories of ... It's just like ... Aw, dude. It's such a ... Just this vortex of cute.
Kendra: Oh my god.
Christine: But I love it. So, in general, Facebook's trying to not make you do that. So, that was a big takeaway.
Christine: Lessly in terms of marketing, but also in terms of really look at the platform tries to do and it's not about quantity anymore. It really, really isn't. So that was-
Kendra: Yeah, and I think what does better on Facebook too is the live video He did talk about that because if you're on a live video, you can actually be engaging with your people. It's not just you talking at people, and Facebook really wants you to engage. They want you to have meaningful conversations. So, you can't do that if you just make a beautiful video and dump it out onto your Facebook page, but if you're on there live, then you can actually be having those conversations with people as that video unfolds. So ...
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Way better place for live video.
Christine: Exactly. Consistently, live video seems to be the secret sauce and he gave the example of ... What's her name? Rachel Hollis? Is that her name?
Kendra: I believe so. Yeah.
Christine: She's doing a coffee video-
Kendra: Oh yeah.
Christine: Every morning, and she has thousands and thousands of people interacting with her. Definitely not something that I would do, but as an example that it works.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: So ...
Kendra: Yeah. Totally.
Christine: Very interesting. Then, the second workshop or actually, the first workshop that we did ... The first day, they were 90 minutes ...
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: They were really definitely more hands-on-
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: Was by and now, I'm super embarrassed because I don't remember his name.
Kendra: His name was Park Howl-
Christine: There we go.
Kendra: And it was about storytelling, and yeah. That was another really common theme in the conference was tell stories. People love to hear stories. So how can you wind your story or your clan's stories into your marketing, into your copy, into the way that you're engaging with people? And during that workshop, he actually taught us how to create our own stories. So it was very actionable, and we really loved that. We both created stories. We actually created a story for this podcast while we were in San Diego.
Christine: Oh yeah. We did. Where did we-
Kendra: Yeah. Yeah. We did, and he was a great speaker. I really loved how he brought in so many components and different media and humor and it was really great, but his kind of formula for storytelling ... A good story is the ABT, which is the 'and, but, therefore' framework, right?
Christine: Yeah. Exactly. So, we actually ... Do you have our story on hand?
Kendra: Yeah. I do. I'm gonna read [crosstalk 00:09:18] it right now.
Christine: Also, the ands, buts, therefore. So you have three paragraphs, and every good story ... And he gave examples of Air B and B having an ad. It was a cartoony kind of thing, and it was super nice about the Berlin Wall and how it brings people together. Air B&B and stuff. It was exactly that structure, and he gave a lot of examples and it's short, but it's super efficient and you can use it on your website, you can use it in your videos, you can use it everywhere. So, this is the example of what we came up for; the and, but, therefore.
Kendra: Okay. So it's both of us were working successfully in our health practices, and we really connected over the marketing component of our businesses after running a webinar series together on public speaking. But, we also discovered that selling health is very different than selling other products and other types of services, and most health coaches and professionals are taught an outdated business model; one that fails to get them clients without burning out. Therefore, we created the 360 Health Biz Podcast to teach health coaches and professionals how to use health specific marketing strategies that actually work and keep them up to date with the latest health research.
Christine: I love it. You know, that should be our intro. It's so good.
Kendra: Yeah. It is so good. We could probably tailor it down a little bit, but yeah. You get that ... So we have that first thing, which is our statement. This is our statement about re- [crosstalk 00:10:44] us, our relationship, how we met, and then that but. But we found that there was this issue. There was this problem. There was this struggle.
Christine: The struggle.
Kendra: Therefore, we created the solution, right?
Christine: Which is us, right?
Christine: Exactly, and if you want to go more into depth, he also says the story elements, if you really want to make sure you don't miss anything, it's the when, the where, the who, the what, and the ah-hah, right? So, and he had a 10 step method that he talks about. So, what makes it different, and then, they are the hero of the story when you talk about your customers. It's not about you. It's about them, what they stand to gain or lose by not working with you, what has happened or is happening in their lives right now that is changing, that is making your service more timely urgent and relevant than ever before. Competitive, time, money, voice of fear that keeps them from working with you. So objection. Then, reinforcing that you are the mentor so how you are uniquely equipped by wisdom et cetera. What do people tell themselves about you that you need to be able to connect with? What does their success look like? Those little milestones, so that they can picture it. What in the stories are our, your values, beliefs that they share? And then, what is your ask? What to do next?
So that's basically, in a nutshell, the structure that he taught us afterwards in a more detailed example. So you have all of that right here, so take not. But ... Fantastic. I really think that if you get that done, whether it is in a blog post, whether it is in your mission statement video, whether it is on your about page, you are on the golden side. I think this is super, super important.
Kendra: Yeah. And I think it just makes it easier for yourself. Suddenly, you know how to talk in your marketing, and you can continue to share that story over and over on different platforms, to different subcategories in your audience and I think ... When you know what your story is, when you know what your values are, when you know what you stand for and how people can change their lives by connecting with you and buying your product or service, I mean, it makes everything a lot easier.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: Gulp. Gulp.
Kendra: Well, yeah, yeah. I'm getting a little cut right now.
Christine: When [inaudible 00:13:22] it's a nice line people. It was nice ... The minute [inaudible 00:13:28] right here. Alright. So that was storytelling, and then, connecting to that, we went to another workshop about Instagram stories because both of us really started to fall into the vortex of Instagram stories. It's hilarious. It's so much fun, but it's also super, super powerful, and so we were basically taught there's different components to Instagram stories. And she divided it into four buckets, and we were in a workshop that basically looked at one. So, can you remember the four buckets?
Kendra: So, I think the four buckets was Instagram in general. So it was Instagram live, it was the feed, it was IGTV, and it was stories. So, Instagram is kind of a beast and it's almost a bit of an overwhelming platform because you have four different of these pretty big buckets right, and they all ... The way you interact in each of hem is a little bit different, right? Your feed is gonna be more curated, more pretty, gorgeous pictures, really nice captions. Your IG live is more like your instant connection, really off the cuffs, but then it disappears after 24 hours. And then, you have your IGTV, which is longer form video. You get 10 minutes if you're under ... If you're not an approved account. So under 10K, but that's kind of your longer form video better for teaching, but then we have stories, right? And stories, like Christine said, are very powerful because they ... A lot of people are watching stories.
More people on Instagram than any other of those buckets are going into the stories, and it's a great way to connect, it's a great way to be creative, it's a great way to really express your brand. So, we were learning a lot about how to specifically use stories to build a brand, but also, by using all the different features. And one big thing that she said, and this was a talk from Susan Urman. I like her. I loved her crazy dress and she was really fun and-
Christine: Fun. Yeah.
Kendra: Animated. She was great, but she says to have a plan for your story. So ...
Christine: Which we are so bad [crosstalk 00:15:26] at. Both of us looked at each other. Oh.
Kendra: We're just like bam, bam, bam, bam, but you know ... And that plan doesn't always have to be this big, educational piece. Sometimes that plan might just to be to share something from your personal life. But keep in mind that you should be trying to tell a story with it rather than just bam! Me eating. Bam! Me biking. Bam! Meal with my kid, or whatever, right? Actually trying [crosstalk 00:15:52] sequentially. Maybe in four of those posts, tell a story.
Christine: Exactly. It might be that you are getting ready to put on your gear to bike. Then it might be your journey up the mountain, and then it might be a little snippet of you racing down, and then it might be a snippet of you in the hospital you know?
Kendra: I'll just take that selfie of myself as I race down the mountain on my mountain bike. We'll see how that goes. It will be like me eating shit and breaking my face [crosstalk 00:16:17] I'm gonna give it a go.
Christine: Me and my broken face. But you get the caption.
Kendra: Yeah. Totally.
Christine: And I'm trying to be more mindful now when I do the Instagram stories. Just is this worth sharing? Is this worth wasting people's time on, even if I do really like it?
Kendra: Wasting your own time too. It takes time to upload these. These are not things that you can schedule out in advance, right?
Christine: No you can't.
Kendra: But you know, Christine, you made that story that I saw at the airport from when your flight got canceled, and I was blown away. I was like, "Holy shit! That was really good. She just crushed that story." And I was like, "How did you even do that?" It looked so good. It was a quality story. You even mentioned ECAM. You even got a good mention of the brand, which we now know that ECAM is a three-person company. So we're all up on them.
Christine: We adore them.
Kendra: We adore them [crosstalk 00:17:15]
Christine: Very nice. Yeah.
Kendra: But yeah. I was like, "Wow! I need to take lessons from you now."
Christine: So let me tell you the story, actually, for you guys. So my flight was originally in the evening from San Diego to London, and then I had just about an hour layover, and then London Luxembourg. And in the morning, thank god I got an email or a notification that my flight in the evening was canceled, which would mean that my layover would only have been 17 minutes, which would have been impossible. It's too big. There's no way. So I called British Airways and I was re booked, but the only way that I could do this was if I had to go from L.A. So basically, I recorded my ode to stay from San Diego to Los Angeles and beyond, and it was not easy to get there because it was Sunday. I'm a little bit posh. So I didn't want to take the Am Track. It took me five Lyft and Uber drivers to actually find one who took me because they were like, "It's too far. I don't have time."
Thank you Vincent from San Diego. Lyft driver. You are forever my savior, and basically, what I did was along the journey, I just took little snippets of the coast or of the environment or of wherever we were driving past and I used the following: So, when we were in the workshop, we were told that you should always use ... If you can, you should use the same filter, if you do use a filter. I don't so I didn't do that, and color. So I already decided on a color palette that reflects my branding, which is mainly pink. Bright pink, dark pink, and green. So I tried to stick to that. If you can, you can also use the same font. I tried ... I have two that I use mainly, and use stickers, use polls, location stickers, hashtag stickers, mention as much as you can, and swipe up if possible.
And so ... And tag strategically and so forth. And so, I did that. I really tagged ... So obviously, I tagged every location. I used the location sticker wherever I went. So I actually got into stories of these locations. So, into San Diego's story. So when they see that ... When you tag location stories or when you take your location, they will pull you out and put you into their feed, which is super cool.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: And then, I used GIF all the time to make it fun. And I mentioned ECAM because I have their stickers on my laptop now, so I just used that when I was in the business lounge, and you can basically see my journey through ... Along the coast, because he took the scenic route to LAX, to the business lounge, into the plane, and it was a story. It was just my journey and it was live and it took ... It takes three hours to get there. So it was fun to do. That said.
Kendra: Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: So that worked, and there are different tricks that you can use to change the background color and all of these things. You can find them on YouTube. It's not that difficult to do, actually. But it really changed my opinion of stories, because you can get super creative and she compared it to scrap booking.
Christine: And that's a little bit what it is, because you want everything to be nice and fun and also, to typically make use of it. So, I'm really trying to each time, find a hashtag, mention someone if I can, and to use the location ... What's it called? Location sticker, I guess.
Kendra: Yeah. Just like where you tag the locations, but yeah. I think that's really cool, and I mean, it is a really cool place where you can engage and you should try to engage. One that I use all the time is the poll functions. You can ask little questions and people can vote. So that gets people to engage in your stories, and then there's also an Ask Me Anything sticker as well. So after you tell a story, you could've said, "Ask me anything about working from the road," or "Ask me anything about whatever you just told your story about" and then people can go in and they can ask you question and you can repost those stickers and have a quick video of you talking and answering the question or you can just do a text version of that.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra: That's really cool too, and I see a lot of bigger accounts using that quite a bit. And people get really excited. I have a colleague who has an Ask Me Anything Tuesday or something like that, so people know that every Tuesday, they can go and ask her anything and then she's gonna answer all the questions. So I think, there's a lot of really cool ways you can engage your audience.
Christine: Yeah, and also something that you suggested, and I haven't checked it out yet but it's the Unfold app?
Kendra: Oh yeah.
Christine: It's called Unfold [crosstalk 00:21:52]
Kendra: What was that about?
Christine: I have it in my notes. I don't remember what it is to be honest. It's use the Unfold app, and I think it's that you can actually use in your stories, you can use a grid.
Christine: So that you can use more than just the video; that you can actually use four pictures in [crosstalk 00:22:09]
Kendra: Oh yeah. I've seen that. I've seen that. That's cool. Okay.
Christine: Yeah. So that's a little tidbit here of wisdom that I took in my notes. I took notes guys. I never took notes. I feel ... It goes to show that I would've forgotten everything if I hadn't taken notes and ... Oh yeah! And also, use older posts and share them in story. And I think that's amazing because I was thinking I have so many posts. I have my interviews three years ago when I was an entrepreneur on fire. I never use it. Why not? You know? Use it in your stories. Just take the graphic, use it, say 'link in bio' for that day, and it's true. You have so much content and because it's only there for 24 hours, you can repurpose so much.
Kendra: You can repurpose it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, and I know this is not from Social Media Marketing World but it is from the su- We saw Chalene Johnson who used to be the Beachbody lady and now she has her podcast, I believe is Build Your Own Tribe, but her son, Brock, does some episodes and he said ... Oh my gosh. I'm brain farting. And it's gone from my brain.
Oh no! No I got it. It's back. When you do an Instagram live, it only stays for 24 hours, but you can save the Instagram live and put it onto IGTV. So I thought that was cool because then you're doing-
Kendra: If you're gonna take that time to do a live video. It's a period after 24 hours, you might as well repurpose it somewhere else.
Christine: Exactly. Yeah. And I actually mindlessly did Instagram live for different things. I was like, "Okay. This is not worth people's time." You know? So, in the end ... For me, in the beginning, Instagram was my personal life. I used Facebook for professional reasons. I have Instagram to push my [inaudible 00:23:58] and what I had for breakfast, and it completely changed to be honest. Because now, I consider myself as an influencer and I need to curate and prune my Instagram versus my Facebook private page. It's just that's where I now post my personal stuff and my Facebook business page nobody watches anyway, but that's where my business content goes as well.
Christine: I think the dynamics between Facebook and Instagram have completely flipped. Not for everyone, but for a lot of people.
Kendra: Yeah. I'm the same way as you. I used to use Facebook like crazy. I barely even use my personal page anymore. Sometimes, I go on there and ask for recommendations but I barely post anything on there, but I love Instagram. I am on it all the time. It's more engaging. More people. You get more reach, and from a business perspective, there's so many ways you can reach people on it, and it's tough with a Facebook business page, right? It's not an engaging platform, right? It's just [crosstalk 00:24:55]
Christine: You're literally set up for ... Not necessarily completely, but I think it's more difficult and you have to be very smart about it. And again, get you to not be bigger is better and we saw that's what brings us to our last point that we want to share with you. We saw the absolutely, fantastic, amazing ...
Kendra: We have two points left, by the way.
Christine: We do?
Kendra: Our second last ... Yeah. We have to talk about Pat Flynn.
Christine: Yeah. See. So ... Oops. [crosstalk 00:25:24]
Kendra: That's why I'm here. That's why I'm here.
Christine: Thank goodness for you guys. But we watched Amanda Bond, who I adore and I signed up for her Facebook app called ... And she basically just did the gist on their presentation.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: What her main message is, and we're going to go into it in a little bit more detail, but it's that you cannot just tell people to opt into anything anymore. You cannot [inaudible 00:25:49] code audience, even if it means it's only asking for their email address.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: So her strategy is that you really have to thought backwards. Your sell or your ask, even if ask, it's not even to sell something is the last thing you do. So, she starts out with just an engagement ads. Just making a statement, polarizing, asking questions. Maybe say that there's a blog post about it, but then she doesn't even do it in the ad. She does it in the comments.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative) [crosstalk 00:26:22]
Christine: She doesn't cling to it.
Kendra: Literally just looking for it. Even ask a question to your audience that makes sense. If you are a food preparation expert, you can ask people what are your biggest issues with food prep or do you prefer to food prep on Sunday night or Friday night or whatever, right? Because then you can also get some more information about your audience that is ... It makes sense, but you know, at the same time, you're just getting people to engage and getting out in front of them. Seeing them, be like, "Hey. This is me."
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra: Just kind of starting to plant those seeds, and so that was her engagement ad.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra: And then, what were her other two? There was testimonials and objections, right?
Christine: Exactly. So testimony is where where she literally used testimonials from past clients, screenshots. It works really well for her if she uses Facebook app, obviously, because she can literally take a screenshot of the power editor and show results and then objections. She always has a sequence of three.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: So, if you've seen the first one, then you get the second one, and then you get the third one. So she's really ... Every category from engagement to testimonial to objection has three ads. So it's nine in total, I believe. If I remember correctly, but it's very strategic, and she explains other strategies that she uses. And I think it makes complete sense, and again, it's not about the more it is. It's about being strategic, it's being personal, it's story related, it's not ... Old school marketing is just not working anymore and when I talk old school, I mean five years ago.
Kendra: Yeah. Old school ... It doesn't take long to become old school in today's world and online marketing. You know, just because you can get a cheap cost per lead when you're running a Facebook ad doesn't mean that's a high quality lead. That doesn't mean that that someone who's even gonna open your email and download your freebie or your lead magnet or whatever that is. That doesn't mean they're gonna end up buying eventually. So, I think I love her strategy because it builds that know like and trust factor for a fairly long time. So by the time she's actually asking people to do something, and I thought it was really interesting that she doesn't even use lead magnets. Right? She just sends people the sequence of blog posts, which I think is really cool, but if you are using a lead magnet, by the time ... If you're doing this sort of strategy where you're getting them to engage, you're showing them the testimonial and how you've helped other people, you're dealing with their objections to what they might have for your product or service.
By the time you're asking them to get on your email list, they might be super stoked to get on your email list and get your freebie. So they're more likely to open that email, they're more likely to actually use and finish your freebie, and then they're way more likely to stay on your email list and engage on your list, right? And eventually, buy, right? Because I've had this issue too. I'm really good at getting a low cost for leads with my Facebook ads. I'm pretty good at that, but I have noticed ... This didn't always used to be the issue, but in the past year, a lot of those leads, they're just not that-
Christine: High convert.
Kendra: High quality. They don't convert. They just want the free thing and then they're gone.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's like the phenomenon with quizzes and for some time, if we quiz, it was the opt in thing when it's been over and over again shown that while you have the biggest opt in, it converts like a motherfucker when you do it in terms of people finding opts, but at the end of the funnel, you don't have conversion when it comes to paying money. So quizzes, whenever I hear someone saying, "I just did a quiz. I want to do a quiz." It's like, don't do it. You will be so disappointed. You will have to pay for your leads, even if they're not expensive, you have to pay for your email provider because your list will grow and you have to pay for those people and they will not buy.
Christine: They will more likely report you as a spammer getting you into trouble with your email provider rather than even spend 27 bucks on a product of yours. So, that's a little bit of takeaway that I've seen and what she taught was totally aligned with that.
Kendra: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. I had a quiz or something like a self assessment or something like that that I did under the advice of a coach and it got me really cheap leads. It converted really well, but it just didn't ... Those people didn't even open my email.
Kendra: They didn't open my emails and I ended up deleting a lot of them and I paid big money for them.
Kendra: Yeah. So, when you think about it, when you're kind of scrolling on your Facebook feed and there's a quiz, you may not have that issue but you're like, "Oh, I'm just interested. I just want to see how I do on the quiz," and they you're done, right?
Christine: Yeah. Like, "Don't bother with me your product you slime ball," right? And I get people. I really do. So nowadays, it's like, "Ugh. I don't even want to click on it because I know I'll have to give away my email address, which I don't want to do." So that was definitely an interesting talk and I suggest you check out Amanda. She's fantastic.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: And then, the last point we want to talk about I remembered is Pat Flynn. So check out Pat Flynn with his podcast ... What is it? Passive Income ... Not Passive Income? More Passive Income ...
Kendra: Yeah. Smart Passive Income. Yeah.
Christine: Smart Passive Income. He is a phenomenal speaker. He's launched a product on Kickstarter, which is like a tripod. It's basically an alternative to the Jobe [crosstalk 00:31:53]
Kendra: Yeah the gorilla.
Christine: Tripod, which I'm using mine here. You're using it as well? I'm using mine here, but yeah. I have my issues with it too. But their using [inaudible 00:32:04] and it's been very successful, but he talked about how they did it. What their process was like, and in a nutshell, what they did was they really went ... You can imagine it like a sweet, and they would make sure they had green lights all the way and the way that they did it was by talking to people. So they went to conferences where vloggers hung out, people who used it. They showed them a couple models, they showed them the idea, they asked them what they wanted, what they needed. And so, once they knew what they wanted, they did the prototype and then they would just ... Every step before they basically spend money in a way, they would make sure that the idea was revalidated.
Christine: And it's a massive success already.
Kendra: Yeah. It is, and it's actually ... It looks like a really good product, but yeah. And he talked a lot about having those real conversations. The way they ended up creating it was talking to people, right?
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra: They were talking to people and hearing that this Gorilla pod just wasn't ... It was annoying. It would blah, blah, blah. It didn't do this. It lacked this. It was good for this but not this sort of thing. And you know, and we were kind of talking before we started recording about sort of the full circle of marketing, right? Because back in the day before this big online beast, people marketed through networking and having conversations with people, and then we got online and we stopped doing that for a while. And it worked for a few years, but these days, it's coming back around where people don't buy from brands. They buy from people. If you want to be successful, you have to know your people. You have to talk to them. You have to have those conversations and develop those relationships. So it is all coming very full circle and I really love that.
Christine: Exactly, and we're going to add a point here because I'm just reading my notes and this is from the influencer conference that we-
Kendra: Oh yeah.
Christine: Went to, and quote ... It doesn't make sense, but they want to ... Influencer services are important to engage with brand customers because brand can't compete with amateurs. Fact.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: Because people tell stories that brands can't.
Christine: People tell stories because they use it in their every day life, and a brand can't do it. If you have an ad created by a brand, it can do whatever it wants to. It's not the same thing as a real life person telling that story. So, influencers understand the audience. Companies usually only create content about the company-
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: But that is not social media.
Christine: And I find it very true. Very often ... I can see it in Luxembourg a lot of the time. PR agencies in Luxembourg are so old school. They don't know what brand experience really is and I find they really lack that connect that people are craving nowadays. And that's the job of an influencer; it's creating word of mouth in social media. So ... And they really say social media should be about collaboration and not just marketing.
Christine: So, it's the democratization of media influence, which-
Kendra: Ooh. I love it.
Christine: Very, very smart. So those are just a couple of things that we took away from this but I think it ties in, again, that if you are a big brand, in the end, people want to connect. They do want the touch for sure, but in the end, a lot of people ... The first thing that they will do is they're going to look for reviews, they're gonna look for what is happening in life, and ultimately, only real people can tell that story.
Christine: So again, it's coming ... Boiling down to people and I think we are more people-centered than we've been in a very long time.
Kendra: I think so too, and I think that yeah. Just with the fact that so many people are really busy and so many people are on social media, we've really gotten disconnected. So people want to connect again. They really want to know people, and a big reason why brands are looking for these micro influencers because you know, not only are they way more likely to work harder, because they're trying to build themselves too, right? They're not just some Hollywood influencer who's whatever, but it's [crosstalk 00:36:22]
Christine: Anyone. [crosstalk 00:36:25]
Kendra: Watch that on Netflix.
Christine: You have to watch it on Netflix, and you know, that's what ... I think that was a huge wake up call in terms of that ... The huge influencers. Not necessarily the best value for your money.
Kendra: Yeah. Totally, and I think, with your ... Just having smaller businesses; this is great, because if you're new to your business or you're mid-level, you probably don't have a really big following and that's okay. You don't need to ever have one. Me and Christine have very small social media followings. We have very small lists. We're successful. We can generate large amounts of money when we want to, and it's because we put the time in to get to know our people, to get to know our niche, and know who we're talking to. And when you know your people, you know what to create for them, honestly.
Christine: Exactly. Speaking to your brand, it's about being an expert in your field. I mean, I work with brands as an influencer and it's because I know my shit, right? Because they know that if they have a journalist who wants to do a piece on their product, they can send me because I can talk about the product but I can also talk about the research behind it. I can talk about the theory behind it. I can talk about the science behind it, and I have tested it. So I can talk about my experience behind it. And that's this full 360 package that you can't get if you just send a media kit right?
Kendra: Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: And I think nobody should be too shy to do that if your niche is important. Whatever your niche is, trust in it. Get out there. Present it. Every piece of media, you can use it. You just need to be creative and think out of the box.
Kendra: Yeah. Absolutely, and even though if you feel like you're small beans, there might be someone ... And you want to work with brands. There may be a brand that's looking for someone just like you.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: So, whoa baby. That was a lot! That was my glass of wine destroyed.
Kendra: That was awesome.
Christine: It was a great episode this one. I have to say.
Kendra: It was a good episode, and we really recommend that conference. We really learned a lot, and we really wanted to kind of give you the conference on steroids.
Christine: You should join us next year. We should do a 360 [crosstalk 00:38:44]
Christine: Podcast kind of tribe getaway.
Kendra: Yeah we can just have a meetup. Totally.
Christine: Together. Yeah.
Kendra: I love it. Yeah, it's really fun to connect with people in person, right? Because we're so much behind our screens. I'm in a tiny little town. No one here ... They're like, "So what do you do?" I'm like, "I'm not even gonna bother telling you." You're all gonna look at me like I have three heads. So ...
Christine: And I took a fifth Uber, you guys. [crosstalk 00:39:10]
Kendra: That was so fun.
Christine: Kind of has a whole new world.
Kendra: Oh my god. It blew my mind. Uber Eats, Uber. I guess we use Lyft more than Uber, but I was like, "This is awesome, because my ... I don't love the city, but one of my biggest issues of the city is it's so hard to get around. If you rent a car, I'm stressed out driving because I don't know where I'm going. You take transit, it takes forever. Cabs are so expensive. So it's just ... You know, I don't love the experience, but the day that we were apart, which was crazy that we were apart for today, but I was in three Ubers just cruising around. I went there, there, there. I just would go on Google and what should I do next? Oh! Kombucha brewery? Yes please! And I'd book a Lyft to there.
Christine: Oh it was a great time. I mean, yeah. It was a good, good event and San Diego is always nice especially in the winter or when it's just not spring yet. It was lovely, so we're definitely going to check in again next year and we're hoping that you will join us. So, let us know if this has been helpful.
Kendra: Yeah. It was super good.
Christine: And give us feedback. Check out our Instagram stories that are going to be super branded and super nice.
Kendra: Yeah, and [crosstalk 00:40:24] Listening to your episode on your smartphone, screenshot this episode, share it on Instagram stories, tag 360 Health Biz Podcast, and we will share it in our stories because we love Instagram stories now. So you should probably do that.
Christine: Yeah. Let's do a quick post for the Instagram story. Well cute. We do very great poses. So anyways, nevermind. We will watch out for our tag on Instagram stories, and yeah. That's it for us today.
Kendra: Bye everyone.
Christine: Bye. Oh shit.
Kendra: I'll make sure that's edited out.
Tools mentioned in this episode:
https://amberdugger.com/ - Profitability Calculator
I Will Teach You to be Rich - Ramit Sethi
Tapping Into Wealth - Margaret Lynch
Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself - Joe Dispenza
About Amber Dugger:
Amber Dugger is the founder of Budget Alchemy, a system developed for health coaches to end the stress and anxiety around numbers. It is a holistic system combining personal finance and business cash flow strategies using Profit First and YNAB (You Need a Budget). She has helped dozens of coaches implement this system and helped hundreds more calculate revenue goals that actually make sense! She is a certified health coach from IIN and worked in corporate finance for 15 years before venturing out on her own in 2015 and thrives on being location independent. She loves traveling, wine, bicycles, knitting and a good cup of tea (in England) and coffee (in Italy).
Contact Amber Dugger:
Christine H.: Hey everyone, and welcome to this episode of the 360 Health Biz podcast. And today, its me! Your host, Christine Hansen and the adorable, wonderfully beautiful partner of mine Kendra Perry! At 6:00 AM and still she looks beautiful.
Kendra Perry: Oh my god, it's the zoom filter that's making me look good right now.
Christine H.: And, we also have a very special guest today who saved my life Amber Dugger. So I'm really excited because we're going to talk hardcore money today. It's a topic that makes us shiver, shake in our boots, but it is actually something that we need to get a grip on. Now before we do that, if you love the topic, if you think we're cute and funny and intelligent and smart and everything, then obviously please leave us a review on Itunes. A five star review would be amazing. And as a thank you, you can head over to our website 360healthbizpodcast.com and you can get a free gift which is a complete tool kit full of [stuff] that we love to use, online tools, you name it, everything is in there with an explanation and sometimes coupon codes. So go and check it out, it's entirely free.
Now, to introduce you to Amber. So Amber is the founder of Budget Alchemy a system developed for health coaches to end the stress and anxiety around numbers. Amen. And I will tell you a story about that. It is a [holistic] system combining personal finance and business cash flow strategies using profit first and YNAB which stands for You Need a Budget. She has helped dozens of coaches, including myself, implement this system and helped hundreds more calculate revenue goals, that actually make sense. She's a certified health coach from IIN and worked for corporate finance for 15 years before venturing out on her own in 2015, and she thrives on being location independent. She loves traveling, wine, I like that, bicycles, mixing and a good cup of tea in England and coffee in Italy. I love that.
Kendra Perry: Great bio!
Christine H.: Absolutely it is [inaudible]. Amber and I met because I hired her. Basically I saw her because a friend of mine, [Meryl] was talking about how she was actually getting a grip of her money, was able to calculate, predict, how much money she needed and then things really started to happen much easier. It was much easier to plan, to manifest, whatever you want to call it. And at the time, I think I felt like a lot of us do, I was in my business, I knew that I had money in the bank account but I never really knew how much. I refused to look at my bank statements, I just ignored looking into my bank account unless I needed to wire money and had to take a look at it. And it was just a scary thing, right. Especially at the beginning of your business when things are not as rosy, and when it's tough. Sometimes, we can be very good at ignoring our numbers.
So I reached out to Amber because I knew we have to get a grip on this right, because also our personal finances, everything was okay, we had savings. But I remember that my husband at that time he had paid our bills first and our mortgage was supposed to go out afterwards, and usually it was the other way around, mortgage would always go out and we would pay the bills with whatever was left over. So this time, he had already paid the bills, which meant the bank couldn't take out all of our mortgage because we didn't have enough money in that bank account and that freaked me out. I was like, “There's no way, the mortgage is the holy thing. There's no way that we cannot pay the mortgage.” And we could, but we had to dip into savings. So that was the point where I was like I need to become an adult and actually know how much money do I need to make. How can I prepare myself for tax seasons? How can I not stress about this thing?
And so I reached out to Amber and she completely changed my world. So Amber tell us a little bit about... I think I'm a typical story of people that you work with, I imagine, but tell me, the people who are listening, a little bit about how people start off with you and what you do in order for us to get to where you actually have a plan and feel comfortable with money, kind of thing
Amber Dugger: Sure, well first of all I wanna just thank you both for having me on. This is just such an honor to be here. I'm really excited to talk with your listeners and learn more about what it is that they may be getting stuck with as well.
This is such a common topic and it's a topic that hasn't been spoken about been spoken about for a very long time. We've been very silent about our personal anxieties, struggles, shame, guilt around money and that time has come to an end. It is time for us to start speaking openly about this so that we can move past it. We have the most amazing talents and abilities. We are motivated and we are ready to just take on the world, right. We have these awesome businesses. We can make great money and now its time to figure out exactly how to start keeping some of it.
Budget Alchemy was the original name; it's now Profit For Keeps. So anyone that's looking for it, just make sure to look for Profit For Keeps. I named it that for a reason and that is because we wanna be able to actually see some evidence of the success in our business and we also then wanna move to something called Profit For Joy.
Money is truly just a resource and we have all of these thoughts about it being very complicated and there's a reason for that. It's not because in the last 40 years we became completely illiterate about money. It's the environment that has changed. So in the past we would have cash. Everyone had cash and it was very easy to determine if we could afford something, because if we didn't have enough cash, we wouldn't pay for it right? [crosstalk] And of course in some ways it allowed us to not get into debt, but at the same time, it also allowed us to know exactly where we were all the time with money. And there's a psychological exchange when you hand over money and then you receive something back, you have exchanged value in tangible terms. It makes sense right? But if you hand over a card, and then you buy the thing, and then they give you back your card and the thing, you've now just rewarded yourself.
Kendra Perry: Yeah
Amber Dugger: Right, because it's a little switch
Kendra Perry: Its true.
Amber Dugger: And since we've started using electronic payments, consumer debt has skyrocketed and its because we don't see it. Paying 25$ on card seems very different than paying 25$ in cash.
Kendra Perry: Yes.
Amber Dugger: And the creditors know this, they use psychology. Their main goal is to rack up as much balances as possible, so they can then get the interest. So you have this whole industry against the consumer, wanting to make money off of them.
At the same time we now have this new way of paying for things, like our phone, where we just wave a magic wand, or use our watch and wave that right. So now we're not even giving anything away and we're still receiving stuff.
So for any of you listening that you're feeling like, "Oh I'm so guilt... I feel so much shame around the debt that I carry." I want you to first remind yourself that you're in an environment where it is absolutely normal to have debt, and an industry that wants and encourages it.
So that's the first thing, the second thing is it's really important to refrain the debt that you currently have; if you have any. And the reason for that is, it has gotten you to this exact point right now. So to change the attitude around it and look at it with gratitude and say, "This has gotten me my education, this has gotten me exactly where I am right now and it has leveraged me to allow myself to be here and I'm not ready to take the next step forward to create my own leverage for myself." And there's just some small tweaks to make that happen and everyone, I truly believe everyone is good with money they just haven't found a system, possibly, that helps them feel empowered with the numbers. So I'm all about just making numbers super approachable simple, and tied directly to what it is that really brings you and those that love joy.
Kendra Perry: Oh wow, I love that. And it's so true, I never even thought of that exchange of energy because I'm pretty bad for buying everything on Amazon prime. I'm just like, “Ooh that, that, I need that, I need this, I need this!” And then I look at my credit and I'm like what the hell did I buy this month? There's Amazon prime 30 times. [crosstalk]
Christine H.: You just see Amazon, Amazon, Amazon. What was it [crosstalk] I don't even remember.
Kendra Perry: I like blacked out and now I have hundreds of different types of paperclips.
Amber Dugger: The same goes for Target. For a lot of people Target can be that black hole of just amazing stuff, but like what did I buy at Target that's 300$.
Yeah, so to answer your question about where people start, I think it's important regardless of where you are in business. If you're making your first thousand a month or your making 100 thousand a month. Its important to take a step back and first ask yourself, “Why did I go into business for myself? What is it that I truly wanna do with the money that comes into my business?” Assume you're paying your bills, assume that you have no debt, assume that you have savings. These are all possible things. But once you get to that point, what is it that you want to accomplish, what is it that you want to experience, what is it that you want to change, to impact? These core things can happen, they can be realized, and the only way it will happen is to get really clear on that.
A lot of times when I speak to people for the first time, they're so focused on the idea that it's not actually possible to move forward, that it's not possible to get out of debt. That's a very real, normal feeling. So if you're feeling those things don't think that you're the only one, there are so many people out there feeling that and silently suffering. I want you to know that you're not alone and the best way to move forward out of that is to recognize, first of all that yes, I can do this and secondly there has to be a bigger reason why. Otherwise, we will stay in this cycle because it's comfortable. It may not be fun, but it's comfortable.
So that's the first thing, second thing is really gaining awareness about your situation. Are you making enough money to cover your bills? Are you making enough money to be profitable? And I think that's the single most important thing, besides the why, because you can have all these dreams, but if you don't have a business that's generating a profit, it will not get you there. The profit carries you forward to allow you to realize those things.
So we calculate a revenue goal, we get profit first percentages which are really simply just percentages of your money going to specific things. So its certain amount going directly to profit, so its like a savings account. A certain amount going to your personal pay so that you can pay the bills that you wanna pay for your lifestyle, your lifestyle's gonna be different from the next entrepreneur and the next coach, and that's fine. Some of us live in New York City, some of us live in Kansas City. The cost of living is gonna be different, therefore your personal needs are gonna be different. So having a generic revenue goal is a detriment to everyone because it doesn't make any sense. It used to drive me crazy when I would see those Facebook adds, “Make 5K as a health coach!” That may work for someone but I know for sure, for me, when I was starting out as a health coach, I needed to make 8K to meet my goals. So it just always frustrated me thinking, “Well, I would always be behind or be going into debt making 5K a month.” Whereas someone who needs 3K will be like, “Woo, 5K's amazing!”
Christine H.: That was brutal, like brutal, brutal, to actually look at how much we needed to make even as a family, right, at the time. Even with my husbands salary and mine, actually looking at our subscriptions, our insurances, our monthly bills, our yearly bills, which we tend to forget, and then I'm like oops, okay savings. That was brutal. That was super hard for me, because I was not making enough money at the time to pay fat taxes, plus living expenses and paying myself was just not in the cards, right [inaudible]. So, knowing that, I think a lot of people have no clue, like they literally don't know. I didn't know how much money I needed to set aside each month to actually just cover my basic expenses without any luxury items or anything on top of that, or any of my business expenses. I think that's the exercise I would ask that I would ask everyone to start doing. Look in that folder where you have your annual bills and when you do the calculation, its very enlightening in a positive way. I don't know if I found it enlightening, I found it [crosstalk]
Kendra Perry: Shocking.
Amber Dugger: That's probably the most emotional point and it also takes the most courage. I'm so inspired by everyone that sits in front of me ready to do that work, because it is a point in time where you've decided enough is enough, I'm ready to get clarity and I'm ready to have a tangible goal to hit. The reason I believe so many have not done this in the past is no one has ever really talked about how to do it before. Going through health coaching school, I was shocked. People were talking about how much percentage of your income you should put to investing and they aren't even talking about how much money you should be making as a health coach and suggesting that we start of at like 200$ a client per month. And I was doing the calculations, I was like, I'm gonna need like 55 clients.
So I encourage all of you to go to my website and download a free calculator. Its called the revenue profitability calculator. I offer that as gift to everyone, because it is the single most important thing and if you do that you now have a tangible goal. You don't need a lot of information, you just need to know roughly how much you want to pay yourself each month and how much your monthly expenses are. That's really it. You put those two things in and you get a number.
There's more to it after that, but getting that number is powerful, because now you can look at seeing, okay, "if I need to make 12000$ a month to live this ideal life that I've put together here, how many spaces do I have available for clients? How much am I currently charging?" If I have 10 spaces and I need 12000$, okay well that's 1200 a month on average I need to charge my clients. How can I create a package that would allow for that. Or what other revenue strings can go into that so then I need 6000$. There's so many different ways you can start playing. But it's a simple thing.
It's like taking a piece of paper and saying okay, 12000 at the top. Alright how are different ways that I can make this happen and it's a really exciting thing because now you have a real thing to go after and its not like shooting in the dark. Which is amazing that so many of us can continue to run a business without having that number, so just imagine once you do. Its like this, okay watch out world, I'm driven now, I'm getting this number now.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, that's awesome and where does all this fear around money stem from? Because I remember when I... I had a look at my finances, a few years ago and I read that book called, I think its called I Can Make You Rich, I can't remember the authors name, but it's a pretty popular book.
Amber Dugger: Ramit Sethi
Kendra Perry: Yeah Ramit Sethi. I looked in my finances and then I remember crying to my boyfriend in the [inaudible] meeting, like “I'm unsuccessful! I don't know what I'm doing! Oh my god! What happening.” We had just started dating so he was like oh god.
I had this fear of even looking at my bank account and where do you think that stems from?
Amber Dugger: Well that's a great question. I think it can really depend from person to person. Well first of all, I just want to share that money is 99% behavioral and emotional [crosstalk]. So there can be 1001 reasons why it might instill fear, but I would believe, one of the most common ones that I see, is that we simply fear what we don't understand.
We may not admit that out loud, but I know that for my own situation thinking about when I first started out as a health coach, I was scared of marketing. I just didn't understand it, I don't really know how to do it, I didn't really understand the ideal client. So I was always scared to market myself. With money a lot of are expected, somehow, out of thin air to understand money.
This is a generational problem I would say, because back in the 30's and 40's we had the Great Depression, [inaudible] so then the way to manage money was just don't spend it ever. So that generation had money because they simply lived a really simple life with really not enjoying very much. Even to the point, I remember my grand-mother telling me... she gave me a silver platter when I graduated college and she said, “this is the silver platter that we used and just a trick, when you are starting out and you don't have a lot of money, buy a really small roast but then fill it with potatoes and root vegetables to make it look like its bigger.” And this was a reality for that generation.
So we have that. Then we go into more of the baby boomer phase where this is so much opportunity and people are making a really great living with pension. So then they've learned from their parents to not spend a lot of money and to just work and be able to have that pension and that retirement.
Now were getting to a point where things are so different from what our parents, our grand-parents experiences and there's so many different types of loans I didn't even know existed until I started working with the clients that I work with now. There are loans on every possible way that you could bring in money. There's loans on your pay pass settlements, there's loans on your stripes settlements, there's loans on your house, your car. You can pretty much get a loan on anything. This is causing a problem where people tend to ... if they get into this cycle, more than half of their expenses are now being paid on interest. So you can get to a point where just almost all of your payments are going to debt repayments. This is a timing thing now, because if we can live below our needs and at the same time pay down our debt, then we're creating our own loans to ourselves. Because if we have our own savings than we can borrow from ourselves without paying any money. So these loans are just costing us so much money.
But, to get back to your question about where it stems from, I think it can be the fear of the unknown, it can also be experiences that we also had as children. So there are people who actually stress more about money and have a lot of savings because they saw their parents never have any money. And then you have some people that are scared that it will be taken away or be used as power against them. That has happened with different family structures and things like that. So its a really good thing and a really form of self-care to explore this with yourself and see where does this stem from. I know that Christine knows that I just love this book, I talk about it all the time, I always have it here.
Christine H.: I recommend it to everyone. It changed my life. I'm not kidding you. That's when I went from charging 800$ to 10000$. That book. That was it.
Kendra Perry: Who writes it? Tapping Into Wealth.
Christine H.: Tapping Into Wealth by Margaret M. Lynch. It uses EFT.-
Kendra Perry: I'm going on Amazon prime right now to buy it.
Amber Dugger: Don't wait, just kidding. But what's so amazing about this book is every time I read it I learn something new about my relationship with money. Because we never get over money blocks, we always will have different ... because we continue to have experiences. So those experiences will allow us to continue to add to our relationship but I find that as I continue to explore my own relationship with money, it becomes less and less part. It's not a good thing, it's not a bad thing. Money is simply a resource to allow me to do the things that I wanna do. Its meant to flow. it's not meant to just stay there and not doing anything right. I mean if all hung out in a room and never left and we had 3 million dollars sitting there, it would be a pretty boring life, if we couldn't do anything with it. We'd be like, okay maybe we need to burn this so we can have some meat. So it was really just a reflection or representation of the ability to then exchange that value for something else. So yeah
And, money, you want to have enough so that its aging to about maybe 100 days, but then after that you want it to move in and out so that it can flow. Water gets toxic and [murky] if it just stays in one place. But if water's moving, its so beautiful, and pristine and fresh. And it's the same thing with money. If that is something that resonates with you, I highly recommend, I'm a book nerd, its called The Soul of Money by Lynne Twist. She describes this beautifully. I've learned so much from her on really understanding what money really is.
Christine H.: I love that. I also have to say, the good thing is that your money blocks, once you know them, they're not gone as you said, but you can detect them, right. So, I think for me, the main money block was, like, I was always bad at math. So for me money equals math. [inaudible] it's the same thing, hence I'm bad at it. I never had to worry about money in my life, in a way. So I never really bothered to deal with it.
so the other thing is that, you know, once I worked with you Amber, I kind of understood that it's not the easiest thing for me. I think other people just get things much quicker and but its doable and it gives me a lot of power. The other thing is that I gave emotions to money. Even now, you know when I had savings that came from my family, it was bad money for me. I didn't want to use it because it wasn't the money that I actually made in my business. And I had to understand that actually no it's not good or it's bad, it's a resource that I have for a reason. I just went to do some major life changes and needed my savings to start fresh and I've had really bad in the beginning because it was from my business, but I had to use it from my savings. But in the end, who cares, you know. It is allowing me to start something new and since then, my business has taken off so much more than ever before.
So I think I still know when I sabotage myself and I actually reached out to Amber recently because I was like, "okay I'm starting to do it again." But at least I know. I know and I'm like, “okay, this weekend, its big girl panties on and let's sit down and do the money thing." Because once you set it up, its so easy. It's so so easy, you know. Its just taking that step and doing it, I think is the biggest one. Whether you think you're bad with money, like the cliché sentence, or whether you think its super scary to look at that bank account, I think its always worth it and I really really, especially in the health coach business, where people want to help other people, you cannot do that, if you cannot pay your bills. Its just not doable. You are also running a business. Money and business is just a thing that goes together.
Amber Dugger: As your speaking, its coming to mind for me, I'm just envisioning someone listening to this for the first time and I'm guessing that there might be a question of, "Yes, this all sound amazing, and yes I really wanna do this but how do I do this? What do I do first?" And so would you guys like me to just explain a little more about what I think would be the three most important things to do.
Christine H.: Yes, please do.
Amber Dugger: So if you're listening to this and you're feeling a little overwhelmed or maybe you're feeling inspired or maybe a little bit of both, the first thing that I would suggest that you do is just take a moment and close your eyes and just take a deep breathe. And thank yourself for having these feelings and for listening to this and wanting to take action. This is a beautiful form of self-care and as you promote that to your clients as health coaches it's also important, as you know, to do this for yourself.
And the next thing I want you to just think about is what does your ideal life look like? What are the feelings that you want to feel in this ideal life? And just sit with that for a couple of minutes and really feel the things around you in that ideal life and the people and the images and the smells. This is something that you can do every morning and visualizing what it is that you are wanting to achieve. And it will also help you gain clarity over what it is that you truly want to do with the resources that come into your business.
so there are two things that I see most people, especially when their starting out as a health coach, that's blocking themselves from money. If you do not have a very easy way for people to pay you, I want you to do that first, and that can be as easy as getting a stripe account and using Acuity Scheduling. That's my favorite one, but I'm sure you guys have your own favorite ones. The second thing that I would suggest is that you get a way for to book in. If there's not a place or space for people to book in, then you won't be able to have the calls, and you won't be able to ask for the money. So those are the two most common things I see block, and don't make it really complicated, make it an easy way for them to pay.
The second thing is if you've done that or you've got, "yep, check, check". The second thing is, sit down and do one of two things. If you wanna do it very simply, just write down a number that you wanna pay yourself every month. Very simple. Second thing, just quickly tally up your business expenses that you currently have and write that number down. Then go and get that revenue calculator and put those two things in, and once you get your number put it on a post-it note and stick it up next to your desk and then maybe put one in your wallet, put one on your bathroom mirror, put one, if you can, put it all around your house. This is definitely something that the Tapping Into Wealth girl talked about and I did it. Every time I change this number, I hit that number. So its a very powerful thing. Just putting it out into the universe.
If you decide that you wanna go a little bit deeper than just writing down the numbers, which is totally fine if that's what you do. If you wanna have another step, than go to your bank account and print off your last statement, and just take a highlighter and mark anything that you feel like you weren't using. Because there's a difference between spending on luxury and over consumption. Over consumption could be-
Christine H.: Kendra!
Kendra Perry: I think I over consume! Oh my god! I think I spend too much money on random shit! Oh my gosh
Christine H.: [crosstalk]
Kendra Perry: This is hitting my soul right now.
Amber Dugger: Heres where you can determine if it is or not.
Kendra Perry: Okay.
Amber Dugger: This hand cream that I don't really use, it was a gift actually, but if I had purchased this and it sat here never used. I never used it because I didn't like the ingredients in it, this would be over consumption. Because I bought it but don't use it, don't care about it, don't prioritize it. Now if I have a 30$ german notebook that has fancy paper in it, and it feels amazing and it works really well with my 100$ fountain pen. But if I use it and it brings me joy and I hear the scratch of the golden nib onto this beautiful linen paper, and it gives me that spark, that gratitude, that feeling of heart coherence, then it's absolutely not over consumption, it's luxury. Over consumption can be a three dollar tube of cream and 130$ worth of stationary can be luxury.
So just ask yourself before you purchase your next item, will I prioritize the use of this item, will I enjoy this item, is this something that I will want to have in my life, do I have the space for it? If any of those are no, ask yourself if you really need it. Because there's no reason spending money on something you don't care about, but it is important to spend on the things that you do.
Kendra Perry: You just made me feel really good for buying a 6000$ infrared sauna.
Amber Dugger: Good.
Kendra Perry: That's not over consumption that is luxury [crosstalk]
Christine H.: I have so much space in my bedroom, I'm like it would be super nice to have that sauna in there.
Kendra Perry: It's the best thing ever.
Christine H.: But for example, like just a silly example, and people probably aren't gonna understand, but I got a pair of underwear. It just had the top was available here in Luxembourg, but the bottom was nowhere to be found in my size, so I had to order it from [inaudible]. So the bottom alone is 56 pounds and then the shipping was 27. So in the end I spent 80 pounds, I don't even wanna know what that is in dollars on a thong. And I'm like, "should I do this?" In the end it looks gorgeous and when I wear it [inaudible] its amazing. Its super amazing and when I wear it, obviously I'm not only wearing that, like I wear clothes. But I wear it when-
Amber Dugger: But do you see this glowing emitting from you, and this energy and just this like lightness and like it just brings you up. And that's so important for us to give ourselves these things.
Christine H.: And when I do a deal, when I know that I go to a meeting that I have to close a deal, you can bet that's what I wear. Because it just uplifts everything for me. Everyone has their thing whether it's a family pen, whether it is a infrared sauna, whether it is, well anyway it doesn't matter. You're completely right that, you know, spend your money there instead of cheaper stuff that doesn't make you happy actually.
Amber Dugger: Yeah or expensive stuff that doesn't make you happy-
Christine H.: Yeah
Amber Dugger: And cheap old stuff can make you very happy.
Christine H.: True true.
Amber Dugger: Like this ruler, I love this ruler. [inaudible] but I have it on my desk [crosstalk].
Kendra Perry: I love that you made that distinction because I was actually thinking the other day, I'm like, "man, I spend a lot of money". But I spend a lot of money on my health, you know, my health is really important to me. I buy high quality supplements, I buy crazy light machines, I buy all kinds of stuff, but I use it all and in the end it helps me feel good energy wise and so now I feel a little bit better about spending money on that stuff.
Christine H.: But you also have a budget on your supplements, I don't know, right.
Amber Dugger: Sure, so the other component of this is also recognizing that these things require resources. So this is where it goes back to looking and assessing what is it that I really need to be my best self, to be energized, to have that ability to wake up in the morning and feel ready to tackle the day ahead of me. As you get more clear on that, then writing it down, assessing how much it will cost, is important because then you can put it into the revenue calculator, you can see how much you wanna make and then you can start making plans to hit and exceed that number. We all have the ability to do this and every single person can do this. Its just a matter of us taking this into our own hands and stop being bullied by an industry and also by this perception that we're not good with money.
I just have to touch on this because this always bothered me when I was in college. I was one of the only girls in my finance major, and I was surrounded by a lot of really big egos. They all wanted wall street investors. I had no desire to be a wall street investor. I saw it as a big hoax and really you can put your money in index funds and beat most of the investors 99% of the time. So the professor walked in one day and said, "Alright this is the advanced level investing course", there's all these guys that are getting ready to take there series 7. And he said, "okay, half of you in this room is gonna fail before mid-term, so I'm gonna share the most important thing you need to know to accumulate wealth in about five minutes before we move on to the other areas that will not help you nearly as much as this one tip." And I'm looking around and guys are just like whatever. I'm thinking, "did I hear this right? Why is not everyone taking out their pen and paper and writing this down?"
It was that, it was to put your money in index funds, because as history states, the market continues to grow and unless we have a huge crash, which if we have a huge crash everything will crash not just certain things, everything is gonna crash.so by putting it into something that you know is increasing in value steadily over time, why wouldn't you do that, right? And you don't have to do anything. Its super cheap, you don't have to pay for someone to do that. So I knew that there was something bigger that I wanted to do with my education. But I saw these, mostly guys, want to show how smart they were.
Now this is just my perception, but from my experience this is what was happening. And so they would go around and even in corporate, when I was in corporate, I would see the whole picture, I'd be like okay "we just need to spend less money or we need to make more money". That's really as simple as it gets here, right? Instead, they would be like, "oh well we have to look at this ratio, we have to look at this and we have to look at this performance index and all this stuff." And its like okay, but you're not actually doing anything to fix the big problem which is we have no cash.
So I say all this because if you feel confused about money, or you feel like when someone talks about money that their talking about all these really big things and confusing what's shorts and stocks and puts and all this stuff. I'm not speaking for the person talking about this, however, in general, my experience has been that this is to show how smart they are about it and how dumb you are. You're not. Money is very simple. If you have money, and you want to spend less than you have, and if you something cost more than you have, don't spend it. That's as simple as it gets. I say this because its become more and more evident to me that the deepest reason people don't look at it is they don't wanna appear stupid, they don't wanna appear like they don't know what they're talking about.
I encourage you to start educating yourself and just looking and reading blog articles and possibly picking up this book and Ramit Sethi's book is hands down one of my favorite personal finance books, I'll Teach You To Be Rich. That's why I have not written a book, because he wrote it. Everything he wrote I'm like, "Yes! Yes!" I had a chance to meet him last year and I told him, I was like, "I love what you wrote. If everyone would read that book they would be in such a better state of mind about money, because you make it so approachable."
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and one of the first things I did after reading this book was set up index funds. My boyfriend loved that you said that because I think people think investing is really complicated. And I know people are paying really high management fees to get a person to manage their investments when really that person is gonna lose against the computer algorithm every time. So, I think [inaudible] is really important, its really affordable and over the long term it makes you significantly more money.
Amber Dugger: Heck yes sister!
Kendra Perry: Yeah![crosstalk]
Christine H.: Amazing! So I can, just personally again, we emphasize and totally vouch for Amber and her service. Its been a game changer for me, I think it was literally the first step that changed everything, myself included because then I read the Margaret Lynch book and then I read Joe Dispenza's Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself. When channel all of these together it changes you as a person and you know what to do, you're not afraid of money which is helpful if you want to make money. Its life changing. So I highly, highly suggest having just a chat with Amber if you are feeling like I did in the beginning or like any of the scenarios that we discussed today. So Amber just quickly let us know if we have people who are like "okay, I am ready, I want to face this, I want to be happy, I really want to know what to do." How can they get in touch with you?
Amber Dugger: Oh well first of all thank you for saying that, I really do appreciate it. My mission is really to make my business [inaudible]. I want this to not be an issue. The best way to get a hold of me is first to download the calculator, you'll get lots of information on how to take that further.
Christine H.: [crosstalk]Where can people find it?
Amber Dugger: Yes, it's just my website amberdugger.com. The other place to go would be my free community in Facebook, its called Sweet Life Purpose for Money. In there, there's all sort of resources and you can ask questions there and then there's a way to book a call on my website as well and its just amberdugger.com/workwithme.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. That's the first thing I'm gonna do after this call is I'm gonna go download your probability calculator and I'm like, "okay I gotta get more organized, I need to know my numbers, I love this." I actually love numbers. I never thought I did, but they kind of tingle me a little bit.
Christine H.: They turn me on when I get them in my bank account.
Kendra Perry: Oh yeah!
Amber Dugger: Well ladies, thank you so much for having me. Its been such a pleasure.
Christine H.: Absolutely
Kendra Perry: Thank you so much
Christine H.: Thank you so much. And you guys don't forget to leave us a five star review on Itunes. And-
Kendra Perry: Five star!
Christine H.: We will talk to you in two weeks. So thanks for coming and listening and watching and keep doing this.
Kendra Perry: Good words of advice.
Christine H.: Alright. [crosstalk] alright you guys thanks for listening and talk to you soon! Bye!
Tools mentioned in this episode:
- Hashimoto Protocol by Izabella Wentz
-The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz
About Brendan Vermiere:
Brendan began his career as a personal trainer and nutritionist at the age of 19. He is now an Integrative Clinician and Functional Practitioner specializing in complex chronic disease. He loves all things holistic health and fitness and has many fitness, nutrition, and clinical credentials. He is the owner and founder of the virtual integrative clinic, Metabolic Solutions LLC. Brendan is also the current AFDNP Director for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition. In his free time he enjoys expanding his education, studying philosophy, writing, reading, anything outdoors, and anything that expands the mind and soul 🙂
Contact Brendan Vermiere:
Kendra Perry: Hello, hello everyone. Welcome to the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I'm Kendra Perry and hanging out with my friends. Number one is my number one or number two, Christine Hansen, looking sexy, beautiful, unbelievably attractive as always, and I know she loves this intro.
Christine H.: I do. I do. It makes my life really ... It's amazing. I have an impeccable style in clothing, which is why Kendra and I are completely matched up today.
Kendra Perry: We are matched up today. Awesome. It's like we planned it or something, hey? Cool, well we have a really good show coming up for you today. We're gonna get nerdy because we're hanging out with Brendan Vermeire and he is super intelligent, super smart. We're gonna be talking about autoimmune conditions and working with clients who have different autoimmune diseases and conditions, which is pretty important because it's a pretty common thing going on in today's society. So, Brendan, amazingly, started his career at 19, which blows our mind, because I know me and Christine at 19 were dancing on the bar in white T-shirts.
Christine H.: [inaudible] Reminder at least, so it's painful.
Brendan V.: Where are those pictures for the throwback Thursday?
Christine H.: On Facebook right now!
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I know I actually posted my first Facebook profile picture after I got inspired by Christine's. Yours is like, you wasted at a bar and I'm in a green leprechaun costume, making a pretty stunning pose, I'd have to say.
Anyways let's get back on track here. Brendan is an Integrative Clinician and Functional Practitioner, specializing in complex chronic disease. He loves all things ballistic health fitness and has many fitness nutrition and clinical credentials. He is the owner and founder of Virtual Integrative Clinic Metabolic Solutions. He is also the current AFDNP Director for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition. He loves expanding his education, studying philosophy, writing, reading, anything outdoors and expanding his mind and soul.
So Welcome Brendan! Thank you for being here. Welcome to the show.
Brendan V.: Absolutely, Happy to be here, hanging out with you both.
Kendra Perry: Awesome, so today we are going to be talking about autoimmune conditions. Can you tell us a little bit about, maybe for some of our newbie people, what is an autoimmune condition, why should we car about it and, people are going to be coming across it a lot, so what should they be looking out for?
Brendan V.: Yeah, absolutely. Autoimmunity is one of those weird ass phenomemon where the immune system starts destroying the bodies own tissues. Autoimmune, the name kind of explains it. I think people don't realize, how big of a problem it is. When you look at the disease statics for America, we all know cardiovascular disease is number 1, but cancer is listed at number 2. The reason why is because all types are cancer are collectively put into the same statistic bucket.
The thing is, what people don't know, is if you took all the different diagnosed... which first off autoimmunity is horrendously under diagnosed, horrendously under screened for, under considered, but even still if you added up all the diagnosed conditions of autoimmunity and put them all together it would our rank cancer.
So we really are in an autoimmune crisis, that's just not public knowledge yet. It's just not commonly known, but it's extremely common. We have to realize that a lot of these mechanisms, they have these kind of root caused, contributing factors and it's just a matter of, Alright you have autoimmunity. I also like to think of like a forest fire. There's a forest fire raging in your body. Which trees are being burnt, whichever trees are going to be the weak link, whatever is most susceptible to being burnt, whatever is not as resilient. It's a huge problem.
Christine H.: [inaudible] Go ahead Kendra.
Kendra Perry: I was just going to say, can we dig into some of those root causes. What would you say are the primary things that are causing these different various types of autoimmune conditions?
Brendan V.: Obviously in the functional integrative space, we're all pretty dead set on the idea of [inaudible] hyperpermeability, kind of setting the stage for autoimmunity. Which you know some people say it's an absolute, it has to be there otherwise it doesn't happen. Others say, well most of the time, either way. The majority of the time we need to be looking at the gut health and the intestinal hyperpermeability but more so, it's going to be like, what are the triggers, what things are causing the immune system to freak out.
That's where you go to our conventional physician and they pretty much say, alright you're just one of those unlucky bastards, where your own immune system is destroying your own tissues, we have no explanation for why this ever happens, there is nothing you can do about it, we just need to put you on some kind of drug to manage your symptoms for the rest of your life. If it gets bad enough, we'll go in and do surgery and remove the tissue.
Which is frankly unacceptable. I get really fired up with that, because in reality there is tons of mechanisms and tons of contributing factors whether it's some kind of pathogen like Lyme disease or Babesiosis or it could be something as simple as toxins, like Bisphenol A, which makes plastic malleable and flexible. We consume tons of BPA and tons of these chemicals. When it gets into the blood stream, like BPA will bind to an estrogen receptor and the immune system doesn't know what the fuck that is. It's like Hey let's go attack that. If that receptor that it's stuck on. The cell is going to get damaged and it starts triggering this inflammatory cascade and pop, pop, pop, it all just goes up in flames.
Christine H.: I also think a lot of people don't know that they have an autoimmune disease. Like they know they have a disease like Hashimoto's or Rheumatosis or something like that but they don't actually know that it is their immune system attacking their own thing. They literately get the name and they get the prescription. Do you sometimes have people who you're working with or who inquire and then you take an intake form and they actually don't know that it is an autoimmune disease that they have.
Brendan V.: Absolutely. That's kind of another thing with our health care system. It's not an educational system and it's like, how do you overcome disease without some education and without some self ownership. You got to take ownership. This is a thing going on in my body, I need to understand what it is, why it happens, how to fix it, what can I do, what do I have control of to positively influence the situation.
Obviously we all know that's not how it is. It's like, we think you have this, hears your medication, get it filled up the street at the pharmacy and that's all there is to it. A lot of people don't know [inaudible] I'm not licensed, nothing. Your immune system is destroying this part of your body, so you tell me what that means to you.
Kendra Perry: It is crazy. It is sad, that ultimately a lot of people who have long standing autoimmune conditions that doesn't go treated with some sort of effective treatment route, they're going to get parts of their body removed. Parts of their colon, maybe their thyroid is going to get removed. It's just crazy because it's not the organ or tissues fault, it's the immune system and you need to figure out, what is driving that.
Let's talk a little bit more about some of the non-negotiable things you always do, with people who have autoimmune conditions. What are the things that they need to be doing or considering, if they want to see any type of moving on that needle.
Brendan V.: Especially with the demographic I work with, I pretty much assume...where it's like in the court system your innocent until proven guilty, in my clinic you're guilty until I can prove you're innocent. With my clients I am pretty much going to assume they have some degree of autoimmunity and I'm looking for it with my testing. If I can't find it, I can't find any data that proves that they are autoimmune, I might be a little more relaxed, but as soon as I see the evidence, it's game on.
We have to be that much more strict. With diet, if I see the antibodies high, we're going autoimmune paleo for now. Not that you have to be 100% that strict for the rest of your life, but we gotta get control of this situation. Let's buckle down. The thing with autoimmunity, there is so many factors that could be contributing to it. We can't be messing around with, lets leave this variable in but lets play with this variable. No we gotta blank slate that shit, start from ground zero and build up, until we get those antibodies negative. When it comes to finding like a maintenance lifestyle, you have to do the same in reverse. Introduce one thing at a time. Your antibodies are remaining negative, so we're good, Oh they're starting to go up, Stop, back up. It's an honest process to say the least.
Kendra Perry: What's some of the testing you use to measure that autoimmune activity?
Brendan V.: My standard 3 tests I run on every client that signs up is an, dutch hormone test, an organic acid test, from great plains and then pretty extensive blood work, blood chemistry. I build custom panels. I'll use the [inaudible] tumor from vibrant wellness or the [inaudible] from BSL labs. Pretty regularly as well.
With the blood work that I do, I like to use the little cheap blood test that's and AA or antinuclear antibody test. It's like $14 and if it's positive, we know there is some degree of autoimmune activity. Then too, every blood test I do I am looking at their thyroid, I am looking at their thyroid antibodies. In my opinion, anytime you do a thyroid test, you gotta look at the antibodies. Always, Always, because 84+% of all hyperthyroid cases are, it's not just regular old my thyroid is underactive, it's Hashimoto's, and that's just not looked for enough.
Once I do see any evidence of autoimmunity I'll usually go ahead and run the [inaudible], which is a multiple tissue antibody test. Where basically we are looking for what tissues are being attacked and destroyed. People get really caught up on, well I have celiac and that's a totally different thing than rheumatoid. Not really, it's more similar than not. There are things provoking your immune system to destroy your own tissue, it's just what's the weak link. We have to identify it and trap it.
Christine H.: Do you have clients that have multiple autoimmune, I don't want to say diseases, but maybe building sites? Where they have their thyroid being attacked at the same time as their pancreas [inaudible]?
Brendan V.: Absolutely. That's where I don't think clients, patients, need to get too caught up on the label, the diagnoses, it's more just understanding. This is a complex multi faceted process that's going on in my body, so what approach do I need to take to put out all these fires. There's a raging fire in my thyroid, there's a small fire in my joint tissue. Either way, we got to put out the fire. But yes the most recent, [inaudible] I ran, the thyroid antibodies were elevated, which corresponded with the blood work, blood panel, that we already did. Also like her collagen had antibodies against it. Her connective tissue being attacked and destroyed. Would any rheumatologist diagnose that as some type of connective tissues disease. Probably not, because it was only yay high, but it's still there, it's still relevant.
Kendra Perry: That's really good point. I have a big issue with conventional medicine, is that there is this huge spectrum of things that can be happening in between, of when you start having that activity in your body that your immune system goes haywire, starts attacking your system and between when you eventually get diagnosed, which could be 10 or 20 or even 30 years after that process is started. And most people aren't getting the proper blood work done. When you're talking about getting antibodies for thyroid testing, few doctors actually run that. Let's say you have a 30 year span of someone getting their antibodies checked every year, you actually might see those slowly increasing over time. At some point they get out of that "normal range" and suddenly that person gets that Hashimoto's diagnoses and it kind of leads people to believe that it happened over night. Like I was healthy and now I'm sick, but meanwhile it's actually been developing for years. It's just that our system is not really set up to detect that.
Brendan V.: One of my best success stories, best clients and also really good friend at this point. You can't go through an intensive healing process without getting close. She first came to me, like Oh I just want to do [inaudible] testing and I'm like, "Hi, who are you, why". She had told me, "I was diagnosed hyperthyroid 11 years ago, I was put on Synthroid, I took myself off Synthroid, I feel awful." The very first thyroid test I did, she had never had antibodies tested and the first one we did he TPAO was over 1,000.
Kendra Perry: Whoa...That's crazy.
Brendan V.: Literately it only said over 1,000. It didn't go any higher. So I don't know, it could've been 1300, for all I know.
Christine H.: That's insane.
Brendan V.: That is the perfect example of like, we know statistically 84% of all hyperthyroid cases are Hashimoto's. She got diagnosed 11 years ago, this is a forest fire that started beyond 11 years ago. 11 years ago is when she got diagnosed with hyperthyroid. Which really means the autoimmunity has been gone on since birth, 20 years, it's been goin on for a long time. I was the first person to access the wild fire. The beautiful part we put her on a functional, root cause protocol, we dropped those antibodies from 1,000 to 300 in 8 weeks.
Kendra Perry: Oh, Wow, that's crazy.
Brendan V.: Yeah, Insane.
Christine H.: Let me ask you a question. If you have some people you know are super sick. Their body is weak, they might have done tons of detox's, which might not happen [inaudible], because we talked about it last [inaudible], we talked about how detoxification can be dangerous if you are not fit and you don't know what you are doing. I have a lot of friends who are very weak. They come in, their body is not in the best of shape and I know if I push them too hard, it would be too much.
So how do you handle that? When you have someone you can see that their body is going from beyond struggling to actually being super exhausted and about to just throw in the towel anyway?
Brendan V.: That is one thing that kind of makes it a little bit hard. You've got to be working with someone that really knows what they're doing, because...I don't know, on the one hand the functional integrative whole space industry, there's a lot of beauty in the fact that it's not monopolized. Because anything that gets monopolized gets corrupted. At the same time it also means that it's harder to know, can I trust who I'm working with, how do you qualify? Like somebody who really knows their shit. I know, for me, I like the nitty gritty complex people.
One of my current clients, who is Lyme, mole, Hashimoto's, everything is wrong with her. It's like we got to take it one step at a time, and when I'm looking through her initial testing, I'm looking for every indicator that might tell me her body's not ready for x, y or z. Such as like, everybody loves giving people glutathione, because glutathione detoxes everything. You give glutathione to the wrong person, at the wrong time, you will destroy them.
Kind of like with remineralization, you can't just start releasing a ton of toxins or heavy metals into the system, if their body is not prepared to conjugate and detox those. It does, it gets pretty complicated.
Kendra Perry: I love how you just said remineralization, you probably saw me light up. I love talking about minerals.
Brendan V.: We get to nerd out in like t-minus one month.
Kendra Perry: I know, I know, me and Brendan are doing a webinar together for Functional Diagnostic [inaudible] Mineral Analysis. I'm really excited about that.
Christine H.: That will be awesome.
Brendan V.: That'll be really good. I had to say it I knew you'd light up.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I'm like, let's talk about minerals, but no let's not talk about minerals. Let's talk about toxins because I know, obviously we live in a world where we're getting exposed to heavy metals, chemicals, pesticides, all this crap, drugs, all this stuff. I feel it's a bit hard sometimes to convince people that this is actually playing a major role in what's going on with you. Maybe sometimes I wonder if it's playing the biggest role.
Can you speak a little bit to that and how metals and chemicals might play a role in somebody's autoimmune condition.
Brendan V.: I agree, I think that is probably the biggest offender that is probably driving a lot of this. We don't really have, we're in that early stage right now, where those of us, really it's only the Functional Integrative field that is leading that charge. Because that's what we do, we're the nerds that are trying to figure out, what thins are affecting our health negatively. What can we do to fix that. Period. That's the name of this game [inaudible]. I think the chemicals and things like [inaudible] electromagnetic fields. I've had the pleasure of hanging out with our friend Laura Adler and our friend Nicholas Beano, who are 2 figures who are each kind of in the nerd bubble of spreading awareness on that topic.
The chemical topic, my God, there's, I'm trying to borrow from Laura's power point presentation, 86,000 chemicals that are registered in the US, for chemical manufacturing. Basically none of them have truly been thoroughly tested for human safety. The toxicology is more about, if we give you a dose, this big, of this one thing does it immediately cause acute organ failure. That's the standard we're going off.
When in reality we are breathing in, smothering ourselves, Ingesting, thousands of chemicals, all day, every day and these things can have synergistic, compounding effects. Compound is literately to make more intense. That's what the definition of compound is. What happens when you compound thousand of chemicals in your biology that has not evolved, with these chemicals. That's where if you look at, not to go too hippy, but we got to talk about the planet too. You look at the living planet report, we've killed off, half of everything that lives on this planet in the past 40 years.
How? Well look at how the timeline adds up with chemical manufacturing. The deer outside, they don't get to filter their water like I do. I can educate myself and do something abo it. Where all these poor plants and animals, they're stuck with, I either need to evolve my organs to know what to do with all this crap or I'm going to die off. And that's what's happening. Everything is just dying off.
Kendra Perry: That's really interesting to think about and I really wonder what's going to happen to humans. I look at children's health and I think there is something to be said about general toxicity right. It's just accumulating over time. We have these kids who are born with diseases you wouldn't typically see until later in life and I think that's a huge red flag.
Christine H.: I think it was an article that said if you're a woman, actually not just my daughter, but my daughters, granddaughter, is still going to be effected by things that effected my DNA. Because you eggs are basically being influenced with that. It's not just one generation I think it's two or even three generations that are going to be effected by it.
Kendra Perry: It's so true because the eggs, it's like if you have your kid and if that kid is a daughter, it's her DNA passing on to her next child as well. So there is 2 or 3 generations in there that are getting effected by this. It's not something that's just going to go away with one generation. It's going to take a lot of work and education. Not everyone is going to up for it, I don't think.
Brendan V.: At the end of the day, maybe society is more sophisticated and complicated, but it's Darwinism is at full effect all the time. At this point, we're not evolving we're kind of devolution is really occurring. I think everybody has heard the statistic, about, you can measure 200+ chemicals in the placenta of a newborn. I feel like everybody's heard that statistic and it's true. We are born at birth, toxic and it's only getting worse.
That's weird too, a lot of these chemicals are damaging our DNA. They form these quinone and these toxic compounds that directly destroy our DNA, which then starts causing all of these mutagenic effects with our DNA and susceptibility to disease. It's nasty. I honestly hate to say it, but the more awoke you get with all this stuff, the more it's like we're all kind of fucked and we need to de-fuck ourselves.
Kendra Perry: I love that!
Christine H.: [inaudible]
Brendan V.: There's no other way to put it. People need to wake up and realize we are on a trajectory of destroying our species, destroying our planet. I was just having this conversation yesterday. In reality, we are all pretty self interested organisms. Like if an organism didn't have the inherent desire, if you want to use the word desire, that instinct to propel us into the future to continue. Nothing would exist.
The number one inherent desire of any organism, that we want to continue, we want to evolve, we want to reproduce. The health crisis, some of us are going to do what's needed to stay healthy and survive. Meanwhile the planet, the rock, that we're all just walking on is just being destroyed underneath our feet.
It's honestly a pretty bleak outlook but that's where we just gotta keep talking about it. People need to stop looking at their phone and realize what's going on.
Kendra Perry: It is cool to see, I do feel like there is a lot of organizations coming up. I do feel like there are certain things about this that are coming to the mainstream. I see certain mainstream comedies joking about being gluten free, for example. You start to see these things coming to the mainstream and maybe they're making the way into comedy, but it's a thing right? It's a movement. I think you just helped me come up with my new tagline. "Kendra Perry Nutrition, How to De-Fuck yourself."
Brendan V.: Yeah, how to unfuck your life.
Kendra Perry: I love that. Can we talk a little bit about, some of the mindset things you need to work with, when you're working with clients with autoimmune conditions. Some of the emotional stuff that is going on with these types of people.
Brendan V.: That's something I'm honestly kind of trying to navigate a better solution for, with my business motto. I feel like I need to start offering some serious psychological, spiritual based coaching because a lot of times...I look at health like a yin yang, if you got the psychology and physiology, where they are swirling together, they drastically influence one another. The physiology is off it messes up your psychology, your psychology is off, it messed up your physiology.
At the same time, if you're trying to fix all of it, it gets so overwhelming. When you're dealing with clients, patients, that are really jacked up, physiologically, but also kind of psychologically you have to pick your battle, create some separation. [inaudible]. You're exactly right the mindset is huge. That's where I think it is the responsibility of the coach, the practitioner, whatever, you got to be trained in habit based coaching and behavioral modification and neurolinguistics programing. You got to be able to navigate the fragility of the ego and navigate the fragility of their psychology.
That's some hard shit. Meanwhile you're trying to fix all the complicated metabolic shit. It's damn near impossible sometimes.
Christine H.: I just call it resilience, it's one of those hip words right now. I just say we're going to coach up your resilience. Basically it's jut tearing down their shit.
Kendra Perry: I think people tell themselves a lot of stories. I'm always like what's the story you're telling yourself about your health. I mean I've done it to, because I've had my own health journey. It's just like my energy is never good, I'm just really sick, I'm just never going to get there, it's never going to happen for me. You have to really try and unwind those stories that people are telling themselves. Also try and get people in a place of personal responsibility. I think that's the biggest thing. People need to be responsible for their own health. As coaches we are here to guide people and tell them what to do, but ultimately their health is not my responsibility, it's theirs. I think that's hard shift for some people to make. We definitely in a current medical system, there is no personal responsibility.
Christine H.: It's like here's your pill, we take care of you. Then you have people who are like, please help me, I will pay you a shit load, but I'm not prepared to not eat gluten.
Brendan V.: That's the thing, people need to realize, you manifest your own reality, through the projection of your own beliefs. Then you got to get into your own belief system. What is your belief system? I love that. What is the story that you're telling yourself. There's a crisis of victim mentality in today's society. It's not that everybody wants to be a victim necessarily, but everybody wants affirmation, everybody wants attention. We need that, we are social creatures, so we need a certain amount of societal attention and affirmation, even if it's negative like, I have this disease, I'm a victim, me to, I'm a victim. It's like are you owning your shit and are you doing something. Where as, in the clinical world, I can hold up a piece of paper, a lab test that says this is what's wrong with you physiologically. Where as, psychologically I just need to hold up a mirror and say What do you see. Let's get raw, let's get honest what to you see.
Kendra Perry: I love that you bring up victim mode, because it's such a disease. I see it a lot. Definitely when I'm screening people, when determining whether to work with them or not. If I see they're in victim mode I won't work with them because I can't help them. They have other work to do.
I recently just kicked a woman out of my group membership program, because she was just severe victim mode, no responsibility, shutting down everything anyone said. Just totally toxic, like a virus. It doesn't feel good to kick someone out, especially when you know they need help. Sometimes you are not the person to help them, they need to deep emotional healing right?
Brendan V.: That's the thing, those of us in this work are generally impavs and very empathetic, we have big heart for people. We want to help everybody, we want to save everybody. Sometimes Darwinism needs to play out. That sounds pretty brutal. The people that choose to drown in two feet of water, because they refuse to stand up, that's Darwinism. That is going to due off, that's going to fade out and those that actually choose to evolve. I'm a pretty spiritual dude and I love to kind of combine spirituality. It's just like the Frank Stark Reality of Evaluation. We're just a bunch of meat coated skeletons, walking around on a rock, falling through infinite. You gotta own your own shit, You gotta take responsibility for your reality because that's all there is. All there is.
Christine H.: I love it! How did that happen, from going to [inaudible] to falling through holes and stuff.
Kendra Perry: It's so cool though. Own your own shit. The truth is you form your own reality. I see a lot of people who don't realize that. I see those people, who I call them sols, because they just suck at life, and everything just keeps happening to them. When you actually take a deep look, you realize that they are bringing all that drama into their lives. Maybe they thrive on it, maybe it makes them feel important, maybe it gives them something to complain about or something to distract them from something else hat is going on. I feel like when I made that shift, I feel like I used to be a sol back in the day and I read a few books and started to see, I form and create my own reality. I could totally manifest a better life for myself and when I made that shift, my life got intimately better.
Brendan V.: Step 1 is self awareness, become aware yourself. Then you just start observing. It's kind of the scientific method, You watch, you observe, you make inferences, you conduct experiences. That's all it is to be successful in life. You have to study the situation, see what works, see what doesn't work, of course correct. How do I get from point A to point B. You have to start with staring at yourself in a mirror and getting pretty brutally honest. Don't assume anything, don't assume you are right about anything. You have to question everything.
We live in a world today, we all have an ego. I think the ego is a very primordial, primal, had wired instinct. The ego is a mechanism of self interested that propels us onwards to propel us to be self interested so that we can survive and evolve. But in today's world abundance and seductive marketing the ego has just been seduced and it takes over. People are asleep at the wheel and the ego is driving. And they don't know that, they don't recognize it.
Kendra Perry: That's awesome! Coming back around to autoimmunity, do you think that it's possible to reverse autoimmunity. Have you seen that happen?
Brendan V.: Absolutely, what I love about working with autoimmunity is there is [inaudible] No functional [inaudible] approach. That's what is kind of beautiful about that, there is no other way, you have to do it the right way. That's what I love. You track those antibodies. When I'm working with an autoimmune client, I know our work is not done until we get the antibodies completely negative and then we have to figure out what level of compliance does it take to sustain that. Anybody with an autoimmune condition, they should be doing the antibody testing at least annually for the rest of their life. Just to make sure, How'd I do this year, I was kind of lazy with my diet and lifestyle and self care this year, Oh crap my antibodies are up.
You're always going to be susceptible . You don't cure it, you just put it in remission and you keep it there.
Kendra Perry: I think that's a very good point.
Christine H.: I love this, I'm thinking of what else you could teach our audience, but I think we pretty much covered what autoimmunity is, what Brendan's first steps are, the testing, mindset is a huge one. [inaudible] I think that's huge. Right?
Kendra Perry: Obviously it requires a lot of work, but if people are up for it, I think there's a lot of hope right?
Brendan V.: Absolutely. It's easy to get caught up on the physiology the hard science, but ultimately you can't heal without really addressing your own psychology, your own beliefs, owning your own story, choosing to do something about it. That's something I do see a lot. You work with people who are really physically ill and obviously that has hade a huge impact on their mental health, but sometimes it is almost easier, the body is extremely complex, but believe it or not sometimes, it's easier to fix the body and the mind starts following. Even the most physically ill people, their body is usually more resilient than their minds.
I hate to say it, but their mind is extremely fragile, extremely weak. I don't say that to pic on people, because we're all born into this world, a blank slate. Our brain is the soft, wet piece of clay that is going to be malleable and molded by nature, nurture and that forms your neuro networks, your neuroplasticity, your belief system.
We are not born, and we don't choose our belief system. Our belief system is ingrained into us, from day one, from parents and society. That's what makes becoming an adult, which I've gone through in the past decade, of High I'm a child and now I'm not, what the fuck is going on.
Let me revaluate everything I think I know. Unfortunately I don't think that everybody goes through that. I think some people are consumed with, this is my reality, this is my belief system and they are closed off. They don't realize how much more there is. They don't realize that they've been confused by the smoke. That's where the book "4 Agreements", have you ever read that?
Kendra Perry: I've heard of it. I think I own it. I should look it up.
Brendan V.: Everybody should read that book.
Kendra Perry: That was actually going to be my next question, what are your favorite mindset books. What would be your go to books for practitioners who maybe want to learn a little bit more about autoimmune conditions?
Brendan V.: For autoimmunity? I'm looking at my book collection. The Hashimoto's Protocol from Isabella Wentz. Obviously, New York Times Best Seller. That's a great example right there. She is a Doctor of Pharmacy turns Integrative Functional whatever, but that's a fantastic book. Anybody with a thyroid condition should read that. It's basically lik a blueprint of all the stuff we do professionally. No I don't think anybody should try and navigate their autoimmunity without professional help. But absolutely should be empowered. The other ones would be Dr. Tom O'Brien, is the shit. His "You can fix your Brain" and "Autoimmune Solution". Great books! My stepmom is a great example. She can't just hear it from me, it doesn't work if it's coming from the son, what do I know. But they gave her that book and she's like "Oh my gosh", I need to show my doctor this. I'm like, you can, they're not going to give a fuck, but you can.
Kendra Perry: That's awesome! Brendan, where can people find out more about you? Where can they connect with you?
Brendan V.: I'm all over. I got my Metabolic Solutions, LLC. Instagram page, Holistic salvage Instagram page, Metabolic Solutions Facebook page and then of course my website, Metabolicsolutions.com. Those would be the main places, good starting point. Linkedin, I'm all over the place.
Kendra Perry: Awesome! Thank you for being here with us and having this very interesting conversation that took a few turns I was not expecting.
Brendan V.: I really enjoyed it. I'm happy to be here. I like to have good authentic, real conversations and I really think our society craves that. There is so much fake noise, that just bombards our senses all the time. So people rave that, they crave, like let's get real. I think this was a goo convo. I really enjoyed it and thanks for having me.
Christine H.: Well so did we!
Kendra Perry: Awesome, I'll see you guys again in two weeks for another awesome episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. Thanks Brendan and thank you to my unbelievably sexy cohost.
Christine H.: [inaudible] My internet sucks, I'm going to get a grip on that for next time. But if you learned one thing during this episode that you didn't know, just one thing, then please go to Itunes and leave us a 5 star review. Super, Super Stoked. Go over to our website, you get all the links in there, the show notes and you can also watch our video if you are just listening to us and you want to see how amazing and beautiful we all look, then you can do that too.
Kendra Perry: Okay thanks everyone! Talk to you soon!
Brendan V.: Thank you! Bye.
Christine H.: Bye!
5 THINGS WE WISH WE KNEW AS NEW HEALTH COACHES
This episode is our top advice for new health coaches to have health coach success and getting started as a health coach. There is so much we wish we new when we were starting out like how does one go about making money as a health coach, how to create health coaching programs, how to make money online, how to become an NTP or even how to make money as a fitness coach.
Kendra: Hey, hey, everyone! Welcome to another episode of "The 360 Help Biz Podcast", I am Kendra Perry and I am back from Costa Rica. I missed my beautiful co-host Christine, so we're pretty stoked.
Christine: Likewise, my sister.
Kendra: Hello, hello. We've been apart and it was very sad but we're back and we'll be back together for the next bunch of episodes, so don't worry neither of us are going anywhere. This episode I'm really excited to talk about, I think we both are because this is kind of like the hindsight episode. You know how everything is always more clear in hindsight? And we want to talk about some of the things we wish we knew when we were starting out as health coaches, so maybe that it well help you, the new health coach learn from our hindsight.
Christine: Yeah absolutely. It's also diving into our reason for starting this podcast in the first place and basically it's going to save you lots of time and money. It's a good one to listen to even if you've been in business for a long time. Sometimes we're just really great at having blind spots. [crosstalk].
Kendra: You know I'm really bad for not listening to my own advice. Sometimes I have an epiphany and I'm like, "Why am I doing that? I'm telling everyone not to do that and I just realized I am doing this." You know it's good to check in and remind yourself that-
Christine: You have to be on track.
Kendra: Before we get started I just wanted to read, we did get an awesome five star review. It was from "Anonymous", so if you want to leave us advice make sure to leave us your name so we can give you a shout out. This one is a quick one, it just says "Thanks, Kendra and Christine for all the amazing content that helps building a health coaching practice less overwhelming."
Christine: I love it.
Kendra: Thank you, Anonymous, we appreciate it. But yeah, we will read your five star review that you leave us on iTunes on air because we appreciate it so much because it's the best way to help us get out there and reach more people. and if you want to support us that's probably the best thing you can do.
Christine: Absolutely. Please go ahead there right now. You can press pause and just leave us an amazing review, and just say "This is a great show." And recommend it, or just say "It's great." Doesn't matter. [crosstalk] Just hit pause now and do it, it would make us very, very happy, genuinely.
Kendra: Very happy. Very happy. Like all warm and fuzzy inside.
Awesome, and so we actually do have a freebie for this episode. So, if you guys want to download that after the episode, you can just get that at 360healthbizpodcast.com/episode16. You can grab that there, and one more thing, we started an Instagram account and we only have 40 followers so far. We need more followers, so go follow us on Instagram if you're an Instagram person. We're posting our episodes, we're giving you lots of help and business tips there, our best stuff, so definitely give us a follow and let us know that you're there. Send us a DM or leave us a comment.
Christine: Yeah, and if you're wondering how we're doing all of this, stay tuned, we're going to give a behind the scenes to all our posts at some point. I'm not sure when, but at some point. And I cannot believe it's episode 16, it's crazy! How's that happened?
Kendra: I know, we're kind of rolling along here and it feels really good!
Christine: Yeah, no it's really good, and it's going to be even better. Especially today's episode, everyone. So, shall we get started?
Kendra: Yeah, lets get started. We're going to be talking about five things that we wish we knew then, that we know now, right, Christine?
Kendra: Yeah. And so, I think when you're starting out, it's overwhelming. You don't know where to focus your attention, you hear people talking about all these different things, and in the end... I know, me personally, I spent a lot of time working on things that I never did anything with, you know what I mean? That were kind of pointless, or I eventually realized didn't really matter.
Christine: Yeah, yeah.
Kendra: Just weren't really what I should have been focusing on.
Christine: And I think we're both very similar, in terms that we both love the online space, and we have the "shiny object syndrome", where we go after really good [search pages, right]? Especially at the beginning when you don't know what a search page is, what "copy" is, how you're craftily manipulated into things, it's just really easy to spend so much money on crap you really don't need. So, I think we're going to talk a little bit about that, and how we felt, how we've fallen- and still fall for things. I admire a great copy, it gets me every time. But I think we can help you a little bit by prioritizing what you really need and what you probably really don't.
Kendra: Totally. And the first one we're going to talk about actually may surprise you, because I think this is a cycle a lot of people get themselves into at the beginning, and it has a lot to do with imposter syndrome, I think.
Number one is your education, your health coaching actually matters less than you think it does. You're probably like "What the fuck, ladies? What do you mean, my education doesn't matter?" Yes it matters, you want to go get that education so you know how to be a health coach, but you don't need more education to get clients. And I think a lot of us in the beginning, we're like "Oh, well I just need to take this other course, I need to take this course in this, and this, and this, and then I can go out and get clients."
Christine: Absolutely. I think you need to be very clear on what your mission is, what level of difficulty you want from your client, but if we stick to the basics, a lot of people were unfortunately just raised in a very unhealthy environment, they don't have any good education. I always caught my clients who didn't know that they were sugar and ketchup, right? It's tomato [inaudible] So, I think you need to know what you want to do. But if you want to be a general health coach, you don't need to know all the bells and whistles of the body, you know? You know enough with your health code certification, obviously you need to look where to get certified at. But if you have a decent school, you know more than enough to help your normal, average person get much, much better by just using common sense most of the time.
Christine: And using your coaching skills and keeping them accountable. That's all you need. You do not need a gazillion billion other diplomas.
Kendra: Yeah, you don't need all those fancy letters behind your name. You love health, you're going to upgrade your education as you go because you enjoy it, but it shouldn't prevent you from going out and getting clients. Because the truth is, people don't choose to work with you based on your education, they choose to work with you because they like you, and they trust you, and they maybe see their story in yours. They think you have a cool personality, and you're fun, that's why they decide to work with you. It's not because you have 30 letters behind your name.
Christine: Yes. And I think you need to know what the level of your expertise is going to be, who you want to serve, and also nothing is going to trump the success that you will see with your clients. No course is going to give you the confidence that you would get after working with a certain number of clients in changing their lives. Doesn't matter if you spent 10k on the bells and whistles course that is giving you all the templates that you will need, if you don't have the experience working with clients and changing their lives.
So, having said that, Kendra and I have extensive education on different things. I think it's also because we choose to deliver at this certain level, and we also know that we choose a target audience that has more issues than your average person that wants to get healthy, that needs the support. So I think you need to know about that, you need to be clear, but even still, nothing has ever been as educational as working with people. By far I think the eye opening moment for me was this year in August 2018 when I went to the Mind Share conference, a conference where you have loads of really famous health people like Dr. Aaron Christensen, Jamie Jo Bergen, Izabella Wentz, all of these people, Mark Hyman was there. Big, big people in our industry. But what I learned is that they're all people. They're literally all people, so it's really important to stop thinking that you need to have a certain appearance somewhere, a certain matter that is going to elevate you to a certain status that is going to bring you more clients, because that's not what it is, it's the results.
Kendra: Yeah, and I love you bring that up, because obviously we get a bit nerdy on this podcast, we talk about some pretty nerdy stuff, but we do work with more complex cases. My typical client is the person who's been in and out of the medical system for 20 years, they already eat healthy, they're eating paleo, they're eating organic. They do yoga, they meditate, they're doing all the right things, but they feel like a pile of poo. So obviously I need a few more tools to help that person, over your client who's like "What? Ketchup doesn't have sugar in it? Huh?" Kind of a different clientele. And when you're starting out it's okay if you just want to take the basics, work with the people who just need to learn "Oh, going to bed at 3am is not healthy? What, Froot Loops for breakfast, that's not fiber?"
Kendra: You know, there's a big variability between who you might work with, and you want to know obviously who you're working with, and that brings us to our next thing that we wish we knew was to narrow down and get a niche. Because I know when I started out, I did try to go too general. I made a lot of "Five steps to take your health to the next level" and the stuff that doesn't really resonate with anyone.
Christine: No. It's true. Yeah, I think it's very scary, but truth be told "Health coach", what the hell? It's so bland and boring, and I know I'd probably be offending a lot of you, I don't really care because I know what works and I know what doesn't in the end. I've tried the whole thing, and it's definitely that the more niche you get, every marketing expert will tell you this, and it so counterintuitive, but it's absolutely true. You will be known for something, you can still take on other people, because people will notice that you can work on other things, and they will get in touch with you.
But especially, whether you are local or whether you're online, let's face it: Google is your best friend, and niching, that's what's going to get your clients. My organic reach is 80%, 80% find me from typing in "see expert" into Google. That's priceless, but if you type in "health coach" there's no way you're going to come up. Niching is scary, it's sometimes not clear, there are so many processes, and in that case I do advise that you work with someone who can bring you that clarity, because we sometimes don't see, what is it, the trees through the forest? The forest through the trees? I don't remember.
Kendra: Something like that.
Christine: So, sometimes it will help there. But for sure go with the niche. It might absolutely vouch for advice. If you've ever been doubting, go with niche.
Kendra: Totally. And we dug pretty deep into this, in I believe it was episode 3, our "Niche or Not to Niche" episode, so if you are still struggling at this point in your business journey, definitely go back and listen to that episode, because we kind of walk through the steps and dig a little bit deeper into it. You need to figure out who you're helping and think about what those people are searching for.
They're not looking for, like "I'm looking for a health coach to help me with my health." They're not searching for that, they're looking for "headache relief", they're looking for "Why is my stomach so bloated?" They're looking for "Why the fuck am I so tired all day?" That's what they're searching for. In Google or YouTube, wherever it is, in all their search engines, so you need to capitalize in all those search terms, and you can't do that when you have a really general topic and you're trying to help everyone. We mentioned it in that episode, I know we talked about how it's not a death sentence, it's not like "This is your niche and this is what you have to do for the rest of your life." Right? [crosstalk]
And I just did this in my business, I just recently switched from "female hormone imbalance" to "fatigue and energy" because my interests shifted, and you can totally do that. Just try to pick something that you want to stick with for six months, maybe a year, and then see how things go, you might discover other niches within that niche, right?
Christine: Exactly. And I think that's where the Golden Ticket is finally happening, when you know exactly "That's the type of client, so I get the best results." That's how they tick, that's how they work, whether it's men or women, whether it is within the category of men and women, an age group, a certain type of person, position, whatever it is you're golden.
Kendra: Yeah, totally. And you just gotta do it. You've got to rip the bandaid off, and yes it's scary, yes you feel like you're going to run away clients when you're desperate for clients, but it'll make everything easier. It'll make your copy easier, your marketing, your videos, everything you do within your business to try to get clients, it suddenly becomes more easier when you actually know who you're talking to.
Kendra: And I was very resistant to this in the beginning, too. So I know how you feel, if you're feeling that kind of itchy, scratchy feeling right now, I felt like it too, but once I figured out who I was talking to things started to flow a lot better.
Christine: Yeah, and get in touch with Kendra, she's had that experience. I was a little bit unclear on it but I think we're different in that type. I would say get in touch with either one of us that you think is going to help you, if you need a little bit more "kickass", maybe it's me at this point. If you need someone who really knows the struggle, then it's Kendra, but get in touch with us. Send us an email, connect with us, we're normal people. [crosstalk]
Kendra: Totally, and I work with lots of practitioners that do a lot of practitioner mentoring in both the nerdy functional lab testing interpretation stuff, but also the business stuff, ultimately our conversations always go to business.
Kendra: Because people are always wondering "How do I get clients, how do I make a go of this? How do I quit my side hustle and make this a full time gig?" Right?
Christine: Yeah. We're kickass coaches, really good ones.
Kendra: Yeah, and I love the next one we're going to talk about, because this is one I always have to- even currently now- check myself on, is that your vanity metrics don't matter.
Christine: Oh, fuck yeah. Oh, sorry!
Kendra: I think we swear on this podcast, I think we're good. [crosstalk] I think we only dropped like 3-6 F-bombs
Kendra: F-bomb count: Ding, number three, we should get a bell!
Christine: Yeah, five cents in the cookie jar.
I love that you call it "vanity metrics". Who cares, it's so old school and I still remember this one person who's been contacting me a couple of times, still for a summit where she insists on getting my list, I'm like "Why? It's so antiquated. Who's you're coach, were they like 2005-2008?" It's so old school, what worked in 2013 is not working today, and I think it's like, your numbers, unless you have a very specific campaign, it doesn't matter. I have a teeny tiny list, and I convert a [muhhfuckas]
Christine: [inaudible] Right, and I only have two sets of courses or so a week, and so it's totally fine. So, yeah, I love that because it can give us an inferiority complexus, as in "My list is tiny, my Facebook page doesn't have a lot of followers." Let me tell you, a couple of years ago Facebook was promoting pages, it sent so many people there, stop doing that. It has nothing to do with you or your popularity, everything to do with the algorithm. There's so many different factors, platforms that shift that numbers, indeed, don't seem to really express anything.
However, I find it doesn't hurt to sometimes invest for a short period of time in companies that can help you in a legitimate way, and in a way that is in alignment with you, build a certain following base on a certain platform. It doesn't need to be 20k, it can be 6k or 5k, and it's impressive enough for if you want to have media, for example, to go and look at your Instagram account and say "Okay, at least she's got 4,000 followers, that's more than your average person." You can find people that do a really, genuinely good job without spamming you or having fake accounts online, and I think that sometimes when you have a good income already, it's [then a good way] to sometimes spend money. It's definitely not something you need in the beginning.
Christine: But as you are in the middle of the career, it might be a good idea when you budget, what you're going to focus your marketing money on during next quarter, or during second quarter or third quarter, that you say "For one quarter I'm going to focus on that." For example.
Kendra: Totally. And I think in the beginning, you might have 200 followers on social media, maybe you have 50 people on your list, but don't look at it like "I just have 200 followers and I only have..." treat your list and your social media following as if it were thousands. Really try to get that mindset going, because the truth is 50 engaged email list subscribers is way better than 500 people who don't give a shit- ding! About what you're doing and about what you're saying.
And you don't need, I think this is a really good piece of advice, I know in the beginning I felt really overwhelmed, I'm looking at these other people out there who have thousands and thousands of followers and I'm thinking that I can't make money or I'm not going to be able to get income until I get that amount of followers, but you can actually have a very successful and a very profitable business with a very small list and a very small following. Me and Christine are great examples of this, I generate six figures, I have 2,000 people on my list, I have 1,600 on Facebook I think I have 4,000 on Instagram, it doesn't matter.
Christine: No, no.
Kendra: It's because those people like what I'm saying, I nurture them, I treat them like humans. Remember, followers are humans, they're not just numbers. I can have a five figure launch with a 2,000 person email list.
Christine: Exactly. And I have, I've talked with [inaudible] who was a coach of mine, and she has a tiny list, I think it's also not 500 people, not even. And she just had $170,000 launch, or, yeah, a $70,000 launch that she didn't spend any ad spend on. So everything's possible, and I'm not in love with my list, I'm very honest about it, but I just need one person to convert and it's a 10k day.
Christine: Don't plan on the number of people that you have on there, and communicate with them.
Christine: Ask your client, if they do, tell them "I'm appreciating it, and the etiquette last week, and the protocol, converting to clients, there we go." So, I'm not the one who's having a gazillion billion files, or anything like that. I find that is also something that we spend way too much time on, having the perfect [email] sequence and all of that, I find that it's not necessary. It can help if you have a product launch or anything like that, but anything else, if you're consistently showing up and you show them who you are, you don't need a $10,000 dollar [email] sequence that you pay someone for, you really don't. Just be honest.
Kendra: Yeah, yeah. Just love the people you've got and really appreciate the fact that they're there, because when I look at people who are buying something from me when I launch something, it's the people who've been on my list for years. They may not even show up that much, they might not reply to the emails or even comment on my page, but I know they're there, and they're the ones who buy because they're holding on to me, and it's not even a big group of people in the end. It's like this group of people who are my number one fans and they always buy, every time I release something they buy from me. Right?
Christine: Yeah. And I would even advocate to get rid of the rest. I purge my list religiously every two months, where I go through any people who have been inactive for three months, I delete them. Any unsubscribes, I delete them. And I also send out emails at least twice a year where I'm telling them "Do you still need me, yes or no? And please unsubscribe if you don't." And I literally tell them that. Please unsubscribe, and something that I would recommend there is the "nine-letter email". Where you don't have any formatting, you literally just say "Hi, I'm just wondering if you still need my services. Christine." And then you can do a "P.S. If you don't, please unsubscribe." Or you just leave it.
And then you can see, people who don't react, delete them. They don't need you. They're a waste of space on your email list, they cost you money, it's giving you skewed data, it lowers your open rates. I just get rid of them, I delete them, they're not going to buy from me.
Christine: Because in the end a lot of people, especially at a certain price point, they are either in or they're out. And the hackless, we don't want them.
Kendra: Yeah, exactly. And I mean it's scary to get rid of those, I remember at one point deleting 1,700 people from a 3,000 person list. And I was like "This is over half my subscribers, but they weren't opening my emails, they weren't high-quality leads, so there was no point in them being on there. And it does affect how your email provider views emails as spam, if you're sending out emails and nobody's opening them, Gmail is like "This person's sending out spam." So they will choke hold your open rate, so be aware of that, and it's true like Christine said: Generally you're paying for the more subscribers that you have on your list, you don't want to be paying for people who don't give a shit about you, or what you're saying. And it's scary but it's all about engaged followers.
There's a woman that I follow, I'm not going to say "I have such a crush on her", but anyways, she has a really small list. I think she has 4,000 people on her email list, and she has multiple six figure launches with 0 ad spend because that's how engaged her people are.
Christine: Exactly. And I find you need to work to your strengths. I'm not a writer, so my [inaudible] in the meantime I don't even write them anymore. I'm going to write the next one because it's going to be a [inaudible] email, but in general it's not me who writes them, because I don't like writing. My medium is speaking, I don't like writing so I'm not going to expect my email list to convert like a motherfucker, because I don't really put that much love into it because I don't like Dammit. I don't like writing. I want to tell you guys as well, stick to your zone of genius. Writing is making your eyes glaze over or spin around, then don't do it, then don't put more energy into it. It's negative energy that you can use in your zone of genius, whatever that might be. Maybe writing is a zone of genius, then put extra effort in there.
I think it's really, really important, but the old message of email marketing being the one and only tool is definitely over, and I know that people who have this golden age of infusion software where you have a list of 50-60,000 people and stuff are really struggling because Gmail is ruthless.
Christine: It's a real struggle all the time to figure out the algorithms and they hire multiple people to figure it out, which is costing them again.
Kendra: A lot of money.
Christine: So keep it simple, people.
Kendra: Yeah, keep it simple, love the people you've got, love the shit out of them. They're listening to what you say, change that mindset around! Ungh! I saw some thrusting over there, Christine.
Christine: I'm loving you guys, oh my goodness.
Christine: Get on there, go to [inaudible] dot com. I'm loving it.
Kendra: It's so funny, but yeah, you've just got to have that mindset. Look at them, and like I said, remember they're humans, they're people, they're not just numbers, they're not just metrics, they're not just statistics. They are humans and if they like what you're saying, they're reading all your blog posts or watching all your Facebook Lives or whatever, that is sweet. That's a good follower and that is someone who is going to eventually buy from you when you have something to sell.
Christine: Yeah. Agreed. Alright, what do we have next?
Kendra: Number 4: Don't reinvent the wheel, learn how to repurpose content. And this was a really big ah-ha moment for me, because when I started out, I was creating unique content for every single platform. [crosstalk] Instagram, it was just ridiculous. I remember the first time I was like "Oh, repurposing content." I was like "Oh my god, how did I not know what that was a year ago?"
Christine: Yeah. And I think we have to say thanks to how amazing Jamie Palmer for that, right?
Kendra: Yeah, we did an episode with her, it was episode 2 on repurposing content, she has a really great content repurposing strategy that I know you implement in your business, Christine, and I actually work with Jamie in her agency so I know they're doing it for my social media. But really all you have to do is create one high-quality of content like every week or two, like for me, I'm like you I'm not really into writing, I don't care for blog posts, I'm good on video.
So I do a lot of Facebook Lives, I take my Facebook Live and then I transcribe it, I put it on YouTube, I pull the audio from it, it goes into a podcast, and then Jamie and her team they actually pull little blurbs from that video and the they put it on Facebook, Pinterest, LinkedIn, Instagram, and I turn that video transcription into something for my email list, as well.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: That's exactly the same process I use. I literally only do the Facebook video, that's all I do, the whole rest is my assistant who takes over. She does all the rest, it's a very simple system, it takes a little bit in the beginning to learn, but not that much, and now she's done, in literally an hour she's done. And I've seen numbers in this case, I think my organic search went up from 56% to now 80%.
Christine: Just because you are everywhere, and it's no effort. I literally just do that video, I love doing them.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: Once a week is not too much, you could even batch them if you wanted to.
Christine: I'm not very good at that but sometimes I do, I know you are.
Kendra: I'm super into it! It's changing my life.
Christine: So you do whatever calls you. I'm a spur of the moment person, I never script anything, or I don't have [inaudible] notes, very individual. But no matter what, repurposing, it's a golden thing.
Christine: And also, you don't need a new piece of content every year or month. I have a very particular schedule of what I see that I've done this year, doesn't mean that I'm not going to use the same topic next year. Because you get the same questions over and over again and truth is people are not going to scroll through all your blog posts all the time, they're going to that top five.
Christine: So you can talk about the same topic, and you will have other clients who have had the same issue but dealt with it differently. You have learned more, you've experienced a lot more, so don't think you'll be boring. And we've talked about that, I always feel like I have a mug coming flying toward my forehead when I use the word "cortisol" because I think I use it too much, but it's just not true! I'm like "cortisol", ugh, people are going to chase me with sticks. It's really not true, I'm talking about it in this weeks episode, actually. It's not true, it's in your head. It's literally just the voices in your head that aren't true.
Kendra: Yeah, and I love what you're saying there, don't be afraid to repeat yourself. You are going to repeat yourself, you're going to say the same shit over and over and over and over again, but- ding! But it doesn't matter because not every person is following every single thing that you do, they're not reading your Pinterest posts, your Instagram your Facebook and reading your blog posts and going on your YouTube channel, they're not. They're seeing bits and pieces of it, but they also need that repetition, that's actually really important, you kind of need to hear the same thing a few times for it to stick.
I'm the same way, when I say "detox" when I say "mineral imbalance" when I say "metal toxicity" I'm just like "Oh man, people are so sick of hearing me talk about this", but they're not. It's so funny, the people I have in my membership, I feel like I repeat myself so much even within my small membership, and people are like "Oh my god, every time it's so interesting." And I'm like "Man, I just say the same shit three weeks in a row and they think it's the best." Because yeah, people need that repetition, and not everyone is remembering every single thing that you said, right? [crosstalk]
Christine: And you say that people get different things out of it, that's just the way it works.
Kendra: Yeah. So I think that's a big one, you can't reinvent the wheel, you can't make new social media content for every social media platform and then go totally cray-cray and burn yourself out, and then you get to the point where you're like "I'm out of ideas, I have no ideas left." You can reuse the same content, I've made a Facebook Live on the same topic probably like five or six times.
Christine: Oh yeah.
Kendra: I've spoken about it in a bit of a different way, maybe taken a bit of a different angle, but really when it comes down to it, it's the same stuff.
Christine: I mean people ask you all the same questions all of the time.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's true.
Christine: You notice it when you do interviews, it's the same question all of the time, and it's just like "Okay, how can I make it more spicy?" It doesn't even matter.
Kendra: Yeah. Just be okay with repeating yourself, right? Groundhog Day all day, every day. You know that movie? [crosstalk]
Awesome, and I love our final hindsight tip because it's about outsourcing, it's about not trying to do everything yourself, and yes when you're a solopreneur in the beginning and maybe when you don't have a lot of money, you are going to be doing a lot of things yourself, but we do encourage you to outsource just one thing. Because there is something that you suck at, that you absolutely suck at. Maybe it's graphic design, you just make these shitty, clunky nineties images and you're like "That's not nice." You can actually find someone for super cheap to do that for you.
Christine: Yes, and I would argue that that money is going to return to you so quickly because of two different ways; number one: It's going to free up energy. When you do something that's out of your zone of genius it drags negative energy out of you. It makes you twice as tired as anything else. So you're not going to spend that energy on something that is in your zone of genius that would actually give you energy instead. So that's number one.
Christine: The second thing is, it's a mindset thing.
Christine: When you go and you consider yourself as a business, even if it's a freelance [inaudible] employee, you've raised your vibe, you've raised your authority, and you're a proper business. You're not a haggler, you're not a hustler, you're like "I am the boss of my business, and I treat it as a business." And you will appear that way, people who want to work with you will see that, you will have a different vibe around you and when you say "My assistant will do that", it is a different ballgame. Most people now don't even communicate with me personally anymore, it's my assistant who does everything. I have an executive assistant, I have a speaker agent, most companies don't even get to talk to me until I fly to the gig. It's just a different ballgame, right?
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: And you need to step up to that. I find the time where the solopreneur is wearing a gazillion hats, like 17 is not even enough, it's just "Why?" It's not a sign of intelligence not to outsource things, because it's not an impression of price, it's totally affordable. Especially things that are draining you but can easily be outsourced, like processors, graphic design, transcriptions, other things we outsource, everything. Scheduling posts, answering typical questions from your website, sending out scheduling links, I don't even schedule anything anymore. My assistant looks at other people's scheduling links and does it in my calendar. So things like that, you don't need to do that, you really don't.
Kendra: Yeah, and really think about what doesn't make you money because those are the things you should be considering outsourced. What are the things that you need to be doing? Obviously if you do video you're not going to outsource video, if you are your brand and you need to get in front of people, you're going to be doing your video, but you don't need to be doing the transcriptions, right? Transcriptions you can get done really cheap. And I know you use Fiber, Christine. I use UpWork a lot, and I love UpWork, and it's probably the same as Fiber, people have profiles, they have reviews, comments, you can see their history you can view someone who you think is a good fit.
Christine: I've used both, I've been massively screwed by UpWork, like 750 bucks worth.
Kendra: Oh, no.
Christine: Because I didn't quite get the system and I had a really dishonest person there. So I'm a little bit bitter towards UpWork, but I'm just too thick to use it. I don't understand all the plans they have, so I'm staying away from it. But it doesn't matter, there's another platform, I don't remember the name, but yeah. Those are the main ones, you can find them in Facebook groups, if you look for "Virtual assistant" in Facebook you will find groups where they hang out. In any Facebook group you can ask for references, "Who's your virtual assistant, do you like them, don't you like them?" There's agencies you can use, I know there's one in Australia called Automation Agencies, they are like a concierge service where you pay a certain amount per month, and then they do all of those things for you.
So there's lots of different options and lots of different price ranges. You can't always go with a country like the Philippines and have a very cheap one for data entry. At the moment I do a lot of research so I have people that if I wanted to I could outsource there, just to go through [exercise] and pull out names and email addresses and things like that. But there's different levels, I find.
Kendra: Yeah, exactly.
Christine: I do always find something. And test them out! Don't be afraid to say "It didn't work out, sorry."
Kendra: Yeah, exactly. And I think that's the biggest thing, give them a test project and then see how it goes. Because you don't need to stick with them if it didn't work. I've definitely had my share of experiences with outsourcing and I've had some that are just terrible, and I've had some that are awesome. But it really helps, I have a group membership and I want to be giving them good recipes every month, but I'm not going to make recipes. I love to cook but I never right down my measurements, so I have a woman who's a professional chef, and she gives me 10 recipes every month.
Christine: Yeah. Deal.
Kendra: And then I give them to my group and they're awesome, people love them and they feel like they're being made specifically for them from this professional chef. And I don't even see the recipes, they get sent to my assistant, she posts them in the Facebook group and people get stoked on it.
Christine: Love it.
Kendra: And when you're new it's definitely overwhelming, it's this money thing, you don't have clients yet, you're not generating income, but there's still something. There is something that you can spend, maybe you're just going to spend 5 to 50 bucks on it but it's going to make your life so much easier, and you're not going to regret it. That money, like Christine says, is going to come back to you.
Christine: It will!
Kendra: Because if you want to grow quickly, if you want to make money and start turning this into a full time gig if it isn't already, you need to be focusing on things that make you money. Which is getting clients, marketing yourself, talking to clients, working with clients. It's not customer service, it's not graphic design, it's not admin, it's not bookkeeping, it's not making recipes or whatever. Depending on what your niche is, maybe it is making recipes.
Kendra: If that's what you're doing.
Christine: You can buy so many Done For You programs, Rachel Feldman is someone who has amazing Done for You programs for health coaches. Definitely recommend her, I love her. Good investment when you get started and you think you're overwhelmed, it's all done for you, you can tweak it and customize it, go and check her out, I adore her. That is definitely something that you can do, also just a side note, money is just money.
Christine: It comes back to you. It's not a good thing, it's not a bad thing. It's just a thing.
Christine: So don't freak out when you invest it, it's going to come back. It's just a thing.
Kendra: It will be there.
Christine: Yeah. Because you will have that time, the way you spend 20 minutes a pro, who's a VA, you pay them five bucks, they spend two minutes on it, it's better than what you did, and those 20 minutes you might have a meaningful conversation with someone who then likes you and is going to pay you 5,000 bucks.
Kendra: Yeah. Exactly. I think money is just like this energetic frequency, and I'd love to do an episode, we should do one on "money mindset". Because I feel like things for me really start to shift when I started dealing with my money shit. Because we all have weird beliefs around money, it's this weird thing where we want it, but we almost feel dirty about wanting it. Especially when we're making our money helping people, we feel like we want to help people but taking their money doesn't feel as good as helping them.
Kendra: So I think we bring a lot of weird money shit into our relationships with our clients, with our business, and when you learn how to shift that, that's honestly where the magic happens. That's what I think anyway.
Christine: Exactly. Your business grows from the inside out. Your inside out. It's the most magical sentence that once you get it, it will change your business. Yes, we will have to get a couple experts in here about money mindset. Kendra and I, we both have done massive shifts this year.
Kendra: Oh, yeah.
Christine: I'm not the same person I was six months ago. My prices have 10x'd, 100x'd, actually. I have my old pricing on another partnership side and someone got in touch with me today, "Are you still charging this?" I was like "Fuck no!"
Christine: Ding.[crosstalk] You have to take this down because this is no longer true, it's now like 10 times the amount.
Kendra: Yeah. Yeah definitely. And I think it takes time to work through those blocks, but we'll definitely get some experts on here and talk about it because I really think that's a huge thing, is really learning how to have positive, happy, productive thoughts about money.
Christine: Yeah. It's great, I love money.
Kendra: I love money, too. I want all the money.
Christine: It's brilliant stuff.
Kendra: Awesome, well that was awesome. I'm glad we talked about some of the things we wish we knew and we do have a freebie for this episode. You can get it at 360healthbizpodcast.com/episode16. And it's going to include all the five things we talked about today, plus five more. So it's going to include 10 Must-Know Tips that you need to know as a new health coach. Or even as a medium health coach, someone who's midway in their business, these are things we need to keep reminding ourselves about so that we don't forget. Because sometimes we suck at taking our own advice.
Christine: Yeah. And leave us feedback on your biggest "Wish I had known." So if you're a more seasoned health coach or mid sized and you think "I have some experiences to share", come over to our Facebook page, find the link and it's Facebook.com/360healthbizpodcast and leave a comment below this episode and let us know what was your biggest "I wish I had known" moment. We love to read that.
Kendra: We would love to because we all have them, right? I think by sharing that and having that conversation it helps everyone else who's still in that beginning mode making all the mistakes that we were making too, right?
Kendra: Awesome. Well that was fun, Christine!
Christine: As always, it was lovely.
Kendra: Lovely, good to be back, and we'll be back again in two weeks time. And remember, we're a broken record with this, leave us a review! Leave us a review on iTunes, it helps us get out there. If you want to support the show that is the best way to do it.
Christine: Thank you.
Kendra: Just by giving us your positive feedback. And that helps us know that you want more from us, and we will give it to you.
Christine: You want more? You get it! I love where this is going.
Kendra: I know, me too.
Christine: Alright guys, thanks so much for tuning in, check out our website 360healthbiz.com you'll find all the information in there, our show notes, our links, our freebies, everything you need. And if you want to get in touch just shoot us an email.
Kendra: Awesome. Bye Christine.
Tools mentioned in this episode:
- Grab our FREE Practitioner Tool Kit to get a list and review of all the platforms Kendra and Christine use personally in their businesses to save time, money and generate consistent income.
About Cynthia Andersen:
Cynthia Andersen has a passion for helping privately owned medical practices succeed. She is a highly energetic, optimistic and enthusiastic person with a passion to help private medical practices that are struggling financially. Her mission is to train medical practices how to drive profitability and eliminate physician burnout, so they can focus on the priority of treating patients.
Contact Cynthia Andersen:www.MeetwithCynthia.com
Christine: Hello everyone and welcome to this new episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast, and today you can see it's a full house. We have a very wonderful guest here today, but first, as always, let me introduce you to my beautiful, wonderful, smart and sexy host, Kendra Perry.
Kendra: Hello. Love it, love it, love it.
Christine: [inaudible]. The awesome twosome here, and as always we will start this episode by having you or asking you actually to have you help us, which is that you pause right now. You go over to iTunes, look for 360 Health Biz Podcast, and you give us a five star review and that will make our day.
Christine: Don't even have to write a lot. Just say it's cool, it's hip, their cute, their funny, their intelligent, whatever you choose [inaudible]. And just leave us a little review and comment, and five stars, and it would just make a huge difference. More people we get to see us that need to hear from us, especially as today's episode is going to be super awesome because we have businesses and we need and want to make money, because we can have more people. We can have a better life. We can do lots of great stuff with money. Money doesn't need to be spending on evil things. You can do amazing things with it. So we have our very, very special guests Cynthia Andersen here today. And we're going to pick her brain on everything that she's noticed that is, you know, our querks, because we health people are very certain breed, and you have very odd kind of, you know, little, how would you call that, yeah, querks, I would say. So Cynthia, welcome so much to this episode. I'm really...
Cynthia: Thank you so much ladies for having me. I'm so excited to be here and help your wonderful, awesome audience.
Christine: Absolutely be able to help them. Totally. So tell us a little bit about, I think for you, it's super interesting what you do, but not only what you do, but how you got to focus on us weird health people crap.
Cynthia: Well, what's interesting is healthcare providers spend their entire lives helping others, helping patients, and helping their health and all worried about patient care. And a lot of the times it ignore, they ignore themselves, and their businesses, and growing their business, because they're focused on patient care. And so what I have found is that healthcare practitioners end up becoming burnout of running their practices because of the day to day practice workflow issues, because of the scrutiny sometimes, if they're filing insurance claims that they're dealing with the government, and such, and what, what's happening is they're having to close their practices or does not make it work and who's getting affected, but us patients. So I've made it my mission, and I'm very passionate about helping these healthcare practitioners not only stay in private practice, but thrive because if they don't it's going to affect everybody. And that's really my goal in the bottom line, is to help them drive profitability as well as streamline their practices so they're not going to get burnout and just quit on us. That's what we don't want. We don't want that happening.
Christine: Absolutely. There's a magic word there, which is like streamlining, I adore it, right. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, you've been in business for a long time, helped lots of businesses. So what is like the typical rookie situation that you see? You know, you have this just about to burnout practitioner, who is you know, super excited about their job and it's just getting too much and you come in. And so what is the situation like? What are typical red flags?
Cynthia: Excellent question.
Christine: And we're listening will say, oops, oops. OOPS.
Cynthia: Excellent question. Typically the biggest thing that happens are financial struggles. Where they see the bottom line and there is money not coming in. However these practitioners are again, are driven to help patients and help their health, their health. So they think that the only way to drive revenue is to bring in more patient sometimes. So they'll tell the fun of its double booked, triple, but the, I don't care does get more patients in here, because that will equal more money, and that's not necessarily the case. What happens is they don't have the proper infrastructure in place to handle the influx of patients. If they did bring in a whole bunch of more patients, they don't have the infrastructure which leads to bad customer service. And so one of the biggest thing, and I ended up training and help coaching these practitioners, is that they're running a business, and their patients are customers. So it's that business one-on-one adage that customer service is king, right. And patients now not only have a choice over the practitioners they go to, they have a voice. And they have a voice and all these social media platforms that weren't around 20, 30 years ago. So there's so many other concerns that they're dealing with. But again, usually the big red flags are the financial struggles, and if they're getting more patients in there potentially getting patients that are waiting past 45 minutes past the appointment time, And they're going online and complaining and then their whole office is not having good energy basically because they're getting yelled at from the practitioners, they're getting yelled at from the patients. They're getting yelled at from everywhere. So they have high turnover and not bringing the proper people in place and training them because they don't have the time, also. So they're dealing with so many struggles. It's unreal.
Kendra: Yeah. And this, this really speaks to me because I feel like when I first started getting busier, you know, I did the same thing. I have to take on all the clients I just said yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I mean, so many of those people maybe weren't ideal clients. They were people who were very high maintenance. They took up a lot of my time. They took up a lot of my assistant's time and it's incredibly draining to try to juggle that many people. And you're right, that the client does ultimately start suffering, right? Because you can't remember like, you know, right from left, you're just literally trying to juggle all these people. And we were talking a little bit about it before we hopped on the recording, but do you think there's some mind-set stuff involved in this? Do you think people's money mind-set, money blocks plays into this?
Cynthia: I think so. I think so because healthcare practitioners get into this industry to help people. And part of that, it's this nurturing, this caring aspect. And when I start talking about money, then it's immediate like, 'Oh, I shouldn't be worried about money. You know, I'm worried about patients.' And thinking that they are separate focuses and they're not, because if you're not running financially healthy, a financially healthy practice, you're not going to be in business to treat your patients. So you're absolutely right, Kendra. There's a lot to do with the fact that that you have to, you have to care, take care of your practice financially, make sure the door stays open, to be able to continue to treat the patient and treat them properly.
Christine: Yeah. Do you find there's a difference in age, like does it make a difference whether someone is new or whether do also have like seasoned practitioner, Who's been in the business for a long time, and who might be listening thing like, 'I don't see another option here and I've been doing this, I've tried this man. Nothing's working.' So what is, for example, one thing that you can suggest where people just go like, 'Oh.' Like it's maybe so obvious or it just like the thing that, you know, I think we think it a certain way, just like a blind spot for people like us in air quotes.
Cynthia: For the most part, practitioners that have been practicing for over two decades, for the most part, they are reluctant to bring in technology.
Cynthia: That's a big hurdle with them is that technology. They're like, 'Oh shoot, no, no, no, no, no, no. I've been doing this for decades, things were great before,' but not realizing that their patients are wanting a lot more online options and more line, online opportunities. In addition to that, you are doing duplication of efforts in your practice if you're not utilizing technology the right way. So again, that's the biggest struggle with these older practitioners is bringing on technology when it comes to scheduling, online scheduling, right? They don't understand the difference between web based as opposed to server based on why that makes a difference. If they're growing different locations or if they're, you know, if there are multiple locations, you can't have a server based almost anything. So again, these old school, even mentality, type practitioners, you know, they don't think this internet thing is going to stick around.
Kendra: Yeah. And like I won't even book with someone if they don't have online scheduling. Like when I'm trying to like use up my benefits, it's like you don't have online schedule, that's going to waste time in my schedule because there's always so much back and forth that happens. Or I have to pick up the phone. I hate picking up the phone. I just right click the link.
Cynthia: Exactly. And that's the wave of the future. 68% to be exact, 68% of patients right now prefer to choose a doctor that has the ability to do online scheduling, pay your bills online, and check your medical records online. So if that's not an availability, a doctor that's been practicing for 30+ years, that decides this Internet thing's not going to stick around, he may lose a potential patient because of that, and that one patient could revenue, depending on the specialty, that one patient could revenue thousands of dollars in one year, let alone the lifetime of that patient. So there's a lot of things like that. Little, again, back to the mind-set as well, is that maybe not understanding technology the proper way to implement it and not understanding that taking a step back to work on your business sometimes is ideal to say why do we have these different systems that don't talk to each other or why did we choose these systems that are server based and not web based and why are we spending all of this money on these different things that are causing us more work as opposed to less work. So sometimes it's taking a step back and that's where I kind of helped them look at. I look at the entire practice workflow to identify what those in those cracks or leaks might be.
Kendra: Right? And so if, if you have someone who, you know, maybe they're a new practitioner looking to start an online health practice, or maybe they're someone who's kind of trying to make that transition from being like all in person, like, you know, nineties dat, whatever, like dos system into the new age, like what would be sort of the two or three top systems that you think people absolutely need to be implementing.
Cynthia: So they need to have a good practice management system. Number one, practice management system. Now there's different systems that are geared to different specialties. So acupuncture, there's a whole different set of systems just for acupuncture, massage therapy, there's other systems for surgeries, and family practice, right? So getting a system based on your specialty is key. So having a good practice management system is key. It's going to have your schedule, it's going to have your billing. If going to do any kind of insurance billing as well as patient billing all in one. Having that all in one is key. Also when you're checking in patients. So you can check, do they have a balance? Do I need to collect that balance right now? Am I re-verifying their insurance? Are the cash pay? If there's a cash pay, I need to have a process in place that gives them what my cash pay policy is.Is it written? Is My front office, is everybody trained on this policy going from a to z? Right. So again, it's having that good practice management system. Now if they are a clinician that is doing charting and doing a lot of clinical notes, have an EHR system, electronic healthcare record system is key and even to add onto that, if they're doing a lot of clinical nodes, one that integrates with their practice management system because when it doesn't, they're doing duplication of effort. If you're putting in one patient demographics into the practice management system, why enter it again into this other system and you're going to need to have that connected and then again back to the patient portal. Having access to that. Having an EHR that has the ability to provide their patients their information, which is going to cut down the phone calls that come into the office such as, let me check my lab reports, let me book an appointment, let me make a payment, let me do all these things. Why not just give them, the patient, the ability to go online and self-serve. That's what this whole new generation is all about, is self-serving. I want to go on a PMI line, online payment. I don't want to call and they'll have to wait for somebody to get on the phone and then give them my card number. They're going to write it down or a poster note, and I'm going fear what's going to happen to that poster note. So, I wanna self-serve. And so it is, you know, it's getting into this day and age and understanding what patients' needs are and that's one of them, not just patient care. That's one of their needs.
Christine: Absolutely. Totally agree. Now the other thing that I remember we talked about was that, and you blew my mind with that, is actually for people who already have a practice, is to take some of their process online and some of it offline or even have different steps and I don't really remember what it was, but it blew my mind. I think it was that you can have your patients or your clients do some work in advanced in way. Was it something like that that you suggested? And I was like, 'Oh my God, that saved me so much time.' Do you remember what?
Cynthia: Right. Well, you're absolutely right. So first and foremost, any process or any step in a practice needs to have a designated process and usually the most cumbersome is when a patient a new patient. They have to come in and fill out a boat load of paperwork. Right. The doctors never or any practitioners never seen that patient. So they're not only building on demographics that are filling all their history. They're filling out everything. And usually when you're a new patient, you're going into a room, somebody has got to get that information from you. Write it down, put into a system and there's all of these steps, so why not just streamline that and give your patient the ability to write down their own history, who knows their history better than themselves, why not give them access to a link prior to them walking in the door and then writing down all of the medications that they're on, all of the surgeries that they're on, their family history, everything, again with the integration, that integrates directly into an electronic healthcare record system so that when the practitioner needs to treat the patient or examine them there, that information is in there and they can verify and pinpoint what is necessary and spend that time focusing on the patient rather than, 'When was your last surgery? What is your, what does your father have this? There's her mother have this?' And again, it's good information, but if the patient does it beforehand, why not spend more quality time with that patient?
Christine: Absolutely. And I think we also discussed that, you know, we do a lot of groundwork, a.k.a explanation, before actually you could do a little video course or something like that that you know, they would just watch before actually coming to work with you whether it is in, in person or online, you know, so that you can actually get started right with their issues. So Kendra and I, we run lab tests, so it would be a good idea to explain what the system is or what we are looking for so that they understand the process and then when we get to their result and it will make more sense to them, that would actually save a lot of time, and the ground, you know, system, how the body works the same for everyone. Afterwards their lab tests will be obviously be most specific and different. But things like that save so much time. So I think we also talked about that and that might be an option.
Cynthia: Right. And it's interesting though, because that same concept works not only as a practitioner giving education to their patient, right? Because like you said, it's the same information but then the specifics you're going to go through in depth. So spending more time on that quality. So that's over and over again. It's the same concept when you're training your staff as well, so the process is the same, so instead of every time you had to hire a new front office or every time you have to hire an MA, or a back office or whatever, you're going through the same training over and over again. So again, back to technology. Why not use technology when it comes to both of those cases, where it's the same great information and you can record it once, have a supplemental word document that goes along with it and you're giving them that information so you're not having to, I don't want to say waste, but you are, you're wasting that time again and again when you should be spending, as the practitioner, you should be spending more quality time with me, telling me, tell me about me. That's what I want to know, but I don't want to know about these averages, I'll listened to that really quick, but I'm going to be more attentive to you when you're talking about my specific lab results. Right? So that's what a patient wants. So yes, you're absolutely right, using technology.
Kendra: Right. And it just helps us streamline things so much. I, I recently did this in my own business because, you know, I was kind of giving the same answers, a lot of the same stuff for all the people. So I created a members area that people get access to before, you know, while they're waiting for labs. Because obviously lab work takes time, you have to send the kits, they have to send it in, wait for the results, all that stuff. And while they're waiting, they can go watch videos, they can see how the process is working. I have like lab turnaround times, like recipes, like everything they're going to need so that when we go over the results, we don't have to talk about diet, we don't have to talk about sleep, the importance of sleep or exercising or any of that stuff. Like we're literally just talking about the lab results, how that relates to their experience and what we're doing moving forward in terms of being specific.
Cynthia: That's perfect. That's beautiful. That oh my gosh, yes. That's streamline. That's what streamline is, you're focusing on the things that you need to focus on and you can always revert back to, 'Remember when we talked about or when you watched this video on this, go back to this about education or educating about nutrition, go back to this about that.' They can always refer back to it and that's ideal because again, you're going to have the same FAQ's, right? You're going to have a patient, they'll go through the same thing of saying, 'I don't know about this, how long it takes to get my labs and what does it mean this? What am I going to do in the meantime?' So it's fantastic. That's a perfect example. Perfect example.
Kendra: Yeah, and you can save a lot of money too because if you have, you're paying an assistant hourly or something like that and they're getting asked the same customer service questions over and over and over again. I mean, that's their billing for that time, so why not have the FAQ's in your membership and your contract or like however you're setting that up.
Cynthia: That's excellent. Excellent tips. Absolutely. Another reason why all your listeners, everyone needs to give a five star review right now. Right now.
Kendra: Yes. Yes.
Cynthia: This is great content. This is worth five stars right here.
Kendra: We love you and we want you to come hang out with us every week now.
Christine: You can do the intro. So what is some of the things, what are some of the blind spots? Like a typical one that we really don't see. Like, you know, I think it's like, okay, we see the administration. Is there anything else where you'd say, okay, when I go into a business they don't like to hear it. It's the most painful one. So I've been thinking maybe pricing. Is that a topic that you have a lot of discussions on with your clients?
Cynthia: So, I do. A lot of the time. I mean, it's interesting because Kendra mentioned this earlier, and it was the idea of you may want to build your business, build your practice and treat patients and you think just getting more patients is the key and that may not necessarily be the case, it's identifying what type of patients are you looking for, what type of clients are you wanting into your practice? Because unfortunately they're not all equal. Right? And sometimes you may get a client or a patient that takes up all of your resources, all of them that may be is not one that listens to your education, is not what I call 'coachable,' right? If a, if a practitioner is giving you know, advice or you know, patient education and that patient's just not taking it. And yes, that patient will be a patient for, for you for longer because of the fact that they're not actually getting better. I don't know if that's good or bad thing. I don't know if it's something that practitioners want a patient that doesn't listen to them because they have a patient for life or it is, I want, their goal was to get patients better. So again, and when I go in, I look at what I call their payer mix, because not all practices take insurance. A big, a big up and coming trend is to have these concierge type practices where patients will this pay a monthly amount and they get access to their providers whenever they want. And the other model is called the DPC model, which is a direct primary care model. So these are more up and coming and it's specific, specifically to these practices that are struggling with filing insurance claims. So when you're filing an insurance claim, you're at the mercy of that carrier of whatever contract that you decided. So when a practitioner starts their own practice and they decide I want to be in this payer, BlueCross blue shield or whatever, this as an example, and they just want to become a network, and sometimes with these new payers or these, these, yeah, these new practices that start, they'll give them really just tiny reimbursements and the practitioner doesn't know any better so they'll have a sign off saying, yes, I'm in network thinking it's all the same and that's not necessarily the case and now they've signed this contract that said you're going to get pennies for every time you [inaudible] and now their tan, their hands are tied for two or three years depending on how long that contract is. So because they're so desperate to become a network thinking because it's kind of a marketing technique, right? To bring patients in but not understanding all the nuances. So that's what I'm saying is after they suffer from that, then they'll just turn and go, okay, I want to go concierge or a hybrid or something of that because they don't have to see as many patients. So instead of seeing 2,500 patients a month, they only need a see 500. Getting their life back potentially. And they're getting paid immediately right up front from their patients. So that's usually the first question when somebody wants to start a practice, depending on their specialty it normally get asked, 'Do you want to accept insurance or do you want to be cash pay only and make a decision now? Because there's pros and cons.'
Christine: Yes. I love this. For us, I mean it's not even a question, like I think the labs that we run this just like privately anyway, so we're concierge services, but people who are listening to this might be in this exact position. So I absolutely love this. It's the first time, like I'm not in the US. Right? So I don't have that system...
Kendra: And neither am I. I'm a Canadian.
Christine: [inaudible] but this is the first time in any of the courses that I've taken, and I've taken a lot of health courses, health coaching courses, all kinds of courses? This is the first time I'm actually hearing this being talked about this way. I've never heard about this before. If you haven't either, leave us a five star review.
Kendra: Dear God. I think we're going to start writing people at some point, we're going to have to start like, you know, bribing them in some way, shape or form. Like we will give you something. We will give you money and we'll give you a shout out on air with your name and your business name. Yes [inaudible].
Cynthia: Well I will, I do want to offer your listeners something. If they do give you a five star review, they can go over and get a free consultation with me for 30 minutes at meetwithCynthia.com.
Christine: Oh my God, [inaudible].
Cynthia: So go, go give a five-star review right now. Then go to meetwithCynthia.com. You gotta prove that you gave a five star review and then I will meet with you for free for 30 minutes.
Kendra: Oh my God, I love it. I love bribing people. It's the only way to make people do things sometimes.
Cynthia: It's called reciprocity, it's reciprocity. You give something, they're going to get something back to you. Absolutely works.
Christine: You are amazing, I'm in love.
Kendra: [inaudible] and I just, I just love how you're talking about like seeing less clients because I mean depending whether you're a licensed medical professional, if your doctor obviously you're seeing people in a different way then if you do kind of like what me and Christine do, which is more of like a health coaching thing and like I know Christine, like you're only taking on like a couple of clients a month because you do high ticket clients. I probably only take on like three or four, maybe five a month because we charge really high prices for the really good work we do.
Christine: Yeah, I have five at a time, which means that because I see them every two weeks or every three weeks, I have like two, three appointments per month with clients, not more. I literally only need one client every two months. So in order to cover my basic basic basics. Right. But I mean when you said the concierge service, that's my game. Like, I love this. Like I don't want to be seen as a concierge service, but I do like the notion of that and I find that instead of trying to beat the insurance system, which is not designed to help you, let's be very frank about that, but it's so much smarter than to see, okay, I cannot beat that system. Why don't I create my own one? And when people do that, you know, you need to be ready. You need to be a, know what you're worth. What do you find? How do you help those coaches or those practitioners who very insecure about their pricing and you have this firm belief that I hear over and over again that people will pay them.
Kendra: All the time.
Cynthia: Yes, well. Here's an interesting concept. So as a patient, a lot of the times we feel that we want immediate gratification on anything in life, right? That's a lot of the times people want to think right now, what am I going to get for this right now? And it's difficult for patients to understand the value of getting good healthcare and getting, getting treated preventatively and what that's going to save them in the long term. So part of it is that education of is you're going to continue to eat crappy, put crap in your body. If you're going to continue to lead, lead, lead, a lifestyle that's going to deteriorate this to you. I'll give you the actual figures of what's going to happen to you when you are going to be hospitalized for x, y, z. When you get diabetes, and when unfortunately I've seen this massive too many times is people getting diabetes, not listening to their doctor and losing toes and losing horrifically. I mean I know that's extreme, but it happens. It happened. So not only are emotionally, you've got to deal with that and physically you can't be as active and live as long, but not just that is that financial burden of if you're leaving that for yourself or a spouse or your children to take care of you. Again, that's. It is difficult. Like you said, for some people to know their value to say I'm going to treat this patient for x amount of dollars, but a patient needs to see the value in that service and the value in their health, because you don't have one body,
Cynthia: and you only have a certain amount of time with it, but you can almost dictate that time. I mean, you know, putting aside hereditary things, but, [inaudible]
Christine: No, yeah.
Cynthia: and not just the amount of time, the quality, the quality, my energy, my whatever. It's putting that value on what is my, my quality of life worth. So.
Christine: And, I mean what you said as well is to maybe call their bullshit and actually say, I know that you want instant gratification. I know that when we go into the store and we swipe that card and it bends to hell, you know, at least you get something to take home. It's two different processes. So I think it might actually be in a sales process, be a good idea to tell people that, you know, this is how your brain works. This is what your brain is right now trying to do. It's trying to make you stop spending your money here and spending for something that is giving you immediate gratification. It's neuroscience, it's how we work, but here's the bigger picture. So I think I might introduce into my sales [inaudible].
Cynthia: Yeah, bigger picture, bigger picture mentality is, is you know, what would you do with a better quality of life? What would you do if you felt healthy? What would you do? And having them visualize and think of what does that look like? If I didn't have this illness or how to be relying on this medication or whatever the case may be. What would you do? Let's let's think of that goal and you know, again, to put the value on it. How much are you willing to not only put in your time investment but financially this is worth so much.
Kendra: Yeah, it's worth so much and I think it's a really important like mind shift that practitioners have to make because you're not out there selling a shitty broken vacuum like you are selling transformation. You are going to change people's lives, right? Like if they follow your program, commit to you and stick with you, like they can change their life. So you know, it's not like you're just like, 'Ooh, like buy this shitty vacuum.' Like sure, it works. Like mmhhh, that's not what we're doing here. And I think that mind-set has to happen on the practitioner side. But like you said, like the client needs to see that, like this is really valuable because if you get sick, I mean you're not only going to lose money but you're going to lose time, quality of life, time with your kids or doing whatever it is that you really want to be doing. Right?
Christine: Client and the practitioner. I find that it's very often the practitioners themselves who don't actually realize that value. So everything you've just said, it's not just for the clients, people who are listening. This is for you too.
Christine: This is what we do. It's beautiful. It's amazing what we do, right. So I, I love how you, you know, we should, I think we have very often coached on how to sell things and we kind of do it for patient, but we don't do it for ourselves.
Christine: So I find there's a lot of crap that's still stuck behind that, as in theory I know, but I don't really, really know [inaudible].
Cynthia: It's because it's that it's that I'm here to help a patient and its kind of taboo to talk about money sometimes I'm like, 'Oh, I don't want to tell you how much this is,' and 'Oh, I feel gross about it,' but it's the way of life, right? You are valuable. You're worth something to give that information. So you're right. If that practitioner that needs to understand there's so much value that they're giving that they are worth that amount.
Christine: Yeah. And I find that people sometimes need the bigger picture of what they can do with money. So money is not good. It's not bad. It's nothing, it's neutral. It's literally, it's nothing. What do you do with it that makes a difference? But if you have a lot of money, who's not to say that you're going to take certain hours, you need less clients, who's not to say that you're going to do pro bono cases now, and really have some people, who's not to say that you're going to take your profits, put it philanthropy, put it into research, into whatever your heart desires. You will be able to make a bigger impact, you know, using your money positively when you you have some, than not being able to serve anyone. Right? I find that once you get that mind-set and you have a why that is much bigger, it's so easy to love money because you know that it is going to help you with your bigger goal. That's ultimately something amazing and beautiful.
Cynthia: Right. Right.
Kendra: Yeah. And you need money to do that and I think people don't realize that, right? Like they, you know, they have these weird views about money, like you know, people who maybe they were raised with a lot less or you know, maybe they think rich people are greedy, right? And there's a lot of people who've made a really bad name for money in the world, right? But we need more people like us, like health practitioners who are out there to serve and help people. We need more of those people with money in this world.
Christine: Yeah. And your why can be very individual. I always have to laugh because my why has nothing to do with people. I want to rescue animals from poaching. Especially baby elephants. That's my deal.
Kendra: That's so cute.
Christine: That's my thing. I went to buy a helicopter and chopper and private plane at some point for the foundation that I am supporting. I need cash for that, right.
Christine: That's my ultimate goal. And it doesn't matter what it is, you know you can have you own, but I think if you have that placed you channel differently and you can do a bigger impact in the long run. So.
Christine: And then you can have people working for you that you substitute money. For example, you have a branch or you have a foundation in or anything like that way you can [inaudible] who might not be able to have your bespoke one on one services. But you need to have a bigger picture instead of just weekly and weekly. Right?
Cynthia: Right. Agreed. Everybody needs to have their own why, that, that speaks to them, that resonates with them. And it could be as simple as I want to transform a one person's life or two people's lives, and that then will give them fulfilment, but there is a value to it. So again, it goes back to everybody is going to have their own why. So finding out what that is and that being the ultimate goal, what you strive for, that's what's key. And then how to get there will all work out.
Kendra: Yeah, absolutely. I love it. I love talking about money. Makes me happy.
Christine: [inaudible] So if people work with you, what does a package like that look like? So when you analyze their stuff, you pinpoint what can we streamlined, how else? How can I envision being your client?
Cynthia: So what happens for the most part is I will get people come to me. Like I said, their red flags are usually financial, right? Where they can't make it work. They have their overhead's too high. The reimbursements are going too low and they just feel that they feel the burden somehow, and so they don't know what is wrong. And so my first initial interaction with them is, let's identify every step of the process. How are you getting patients? What, how are you checking them in? How much staff do you have? What your overhead? Let's look at the entire work flow. Let's look at everything. How do you treat them? Do you treat them in person? Do you treat them online? How do you bill them? What if they owe you money? How do you access information? What is your support staff? Look on the back end. What do you do for follow-up? If you do you treat them once? Are you following up to make sure that they're, you know, everything is going properly? You know, what do you do for no shows, appointment confirmation. So we look at the entire process. It's easy to say that every practice works the same, but it doesn't, it really doesn't. Every practice is different. Everyone's gonna have a different mind-set, a different process, a different kind of comfort level, if you will. So it's identifying where the cracks are and if there's processes in place, if there's no processes in place, what's leading to this financial struggle. So that's what I identify. Now from that then I customize what I feel might be necessary, could be an easy fix, it could be simple fix, just say you need this technology and once you implement it, everything's going to be streamlined, or it could be broader that they need more one on one time for me to actually help implement a process as system technology and then train the corresponding staff to use that. So it is, it is customized because every practice is different. Again, back to your goals. Every goal of a practice is different, are they wanting to build it up and bring practitioners underneath them? Are they wanting to, you know, take away time from their own schedule and bring up these other schedule, are they wanting to build it up to sell it because that's happening right now a lot too, is that there's a lot of practitioners that are at retirement age that are looking to sell their practice. So what does that look like? Is it, is somebody gonna want in, want to come in and buy your practice if it's not streamlined, if it's not efficient, they're not going to want to come into a whole stack of paper, I'll tell you that right now. It's not going to be worth anything. So what is the value of your practice? You know, not having, not having any systems in place. So again, the, every practice is different. So that's where I start is first of all, not by assuming anything. I know the statistics, I know the stats out there with the averages are, but I, I don't care necessarily when I'm talking to a practitioner. I want to know what is your goal, what is it currently functioning, what do we want to get to? And then kind of give them the outline of what that entails. Some people are DIYers, right? Where I just give them a recommendation, here is the set of recommendations, do it yourself, or do you want me to hold your hand, and I can do that. So every personality type is different. Everybody's level and their practices different. Like you said, stated someone who wants to start from the ground up, where do they start? Well, let's find out where are you going to get your clients? We're going to get your patients? How are you going to get them in? What are you going to have to support staff? Are going to see them online or you because that's a whole new thing to even. Or you see them online or you can see them face to face, right? There's a lot of considerations that need to take place before you opened the doors. And that sometimes doesn't happen. That has opened the doors. I, if you build it, they will come. Sometimes the mentality that's not necessarily [inaudible]. So it depends, to answer your question, it depends on where the practitioner is at.
Christine: Absolutely. I love that there is a place to go, right? Because I find that so often people struggle and it's just who do I turn to and we all have our models, which doesn't mean that my model is completely different to Kendra's. Because Kendra's a different person, we figured it out in our own ways, but I find that especially if you have already something bigger in place to just need to have someone come in and it's always for the better. Like I'm very much into throwing money at the problem if I get a bespoke solution afterwards that is bringing me so much more freedom in the end. Right. So if you leave the five star review, you get a free consultation with Cynthia. Don't forget, you need to prove that you've done it. So can you repeat the link again? Certainly meetwithCynthia.com. So it's m e e t u p or I'm sorry, meet and then with. W I T H Cynthia, C y a n t h i a .com
Kendra: Awesome, I love that.
Christine: [inaudible] and I think we picked your brain to the bone. Do we say that? I don't know.
Kendra: To the bone? I don't know. Is that a thing?
Christine: Is that a thing?
Kendra: No, that was awesome. I just love these conversations about business because we don't, most people aren't getting that training in school, right? Like, they, we learned how to be coaches or doctors or you know, acupuncturist, but then we don't realize that we're actually going out and starting a business. So I think it's really great to have a business coach or someone who can help you with those systems, help you streamline because honestly you can waste a lot of fucking time just trying to figure it out on your own.
Cynthia: All of it. Time and money wasting. Just just thrown it away to burn it up. Instead of doing that. No. Get a professional to help.
Christine: And I want to emphasize a professional who's been dealing with the health industry for a long time because a generic business coach has no idea what the health industry is [inaudible].
Cynthia: [inaudible] It's like a different animal it.
Christine: It's a different animal it. It really is. That's why this podcast was born because we wanted to target exactly healthcare professionals and we are saying it over and over again that a business coach who doesn't know our clients, who doesn't know what we're dealing with, is not going to give you the advice that you need or the knowledge that you need. It's very different. So that's why we picked you to be here on the show because you know you've seen it, you've done it. You're doing it every day.
Cynthia: Right, right. Excellent.
Kendra: Well thank you Cynthia. Thank you so much for being with us.
Cynthia: Thank you ladies for having me. I love your passion to help practitioners because they need it. They really need this help. So I applaud you and your podcast, so thank you so much for putting this together.
Christine: Thank you. If you want some tools then go to our website 360healthbizpodcast.com and we already have a Freebie there where you have amazing tools that we use in our business. Like a lot of tech, like all of it is tech actually.
Kendra: We have a lot of tech. Yeah, a lot of platforms. The things we have our recommendation for a client management software that works really well for us and we even added in some sample intake forms and contracts, client contracts. Just to get you guys started, make sure you're on track.
Christine: Brilliant. So you get that for free and if you want to dive deeper and get in touch with Cynthia after leaving the five star review, obviously. And we will talk to you again in two weeks. Thank you so much for tuning in. We really appreciate it. And we love all of you. Bye.