Did that title get your attention? The rate at which Lyme has grown is exponential and every year it seems to be getting worse with no signs of slowing down. So what is causing this increase? The World Health Organization came out with a paper suggesting that climate change is one of the driving forces behind this due to warmer winters where the ticks aren't being killed off, so they are able to repopulate. YEAR ROUND. This, along with many other factors is causing an influx of Lyme. There is approximately 300,000 new cases of Lyme disease in the US and about 65,000 new cases in Europe. And those are REPORTED cases (remember Lyme is often misdiagnosed) so we are not seeing these numbers slowing down.
In this episode, we talk with Dr. Darin Ingels about the environmental factors playing a part in the increase of Lyme disease, plus treatments for Lyme, how to PROPERLY get tested for Lyme disease, and the two very unique indicators that one might have Lyme disease.
Darin got interested in Lyme when he developed symptoms of high fever, joint pain, migraines, numbness/tingling in 2002, just 3 weeks before opening his own practice. When he saw the bullseye rash on his leg, he knew that it could only be one thing – Lyme disease (hint: the bullseye rash is one of the two indicators of Lyme).
There is a long list of symptoms when it comes to Lyme which is why it’s called the great imitator. It looks like a lot of other things and is why it gets misdiagnosed frequently. It's just very easy to confuse it with something else. Some of the symptoms may include (but not limited to): joint pain, persistent headaches, unexplained fever, chills, swollen lymph nodes, persistent fatigue, numbness and tingling in your extremities, numbness or tingling on your skin, Bell's palsy (drooping of one side of your face), memory problems, coordination issues, balance problems, and/or behavior issues.
But there are two indicators that Dr. Ingels explained are unique to Lyme disease. The bullseye rash and migrating join pain. That means one day you could have pain in your left shoulder and the next day you have pain in your right knee. When you start to see this it’s best to test for Lyme. Oh and what makes Lyme even more fun is that only 35% of those with Lyme actually get the bullseye rash! We hope you sensed our sarcasm when we said it was fun…Lyme really seems to be a pain in everyone’s ass, or should we say in our joints..with the pain migrating constantly.
Tune in to hear Dr. Ingels discuss his struggles and successes with Lyme treatment, recommendations on labs to get properly tested and which diet is the BEST to follow for symptom improvements.
Dr. Ingels is a respected leader in natural medicine with more than 28 years experience in the healthcare field. He is Board certified in Integrated Pediatrics and a Fellow of the American Academy of Environmental Medicine. Dr. Ingels has been published extensively and is the author of “The Lyme Solution: A 5-Part Plan to Fight the Inflammatory Autoimmune Response and Beat Lyme Disease”, a comprehensive natural approach to treating Lyme disease. He specializes in Lyme disease, autism and chronic immune dysfunction. He uses diet, nutrients, herbs, homeopathy and immunotherapy to help his patients achieve better health.
Connect with Dr. Darin Ingels:
Tools discussed in this episode:
Medical Diagnostics Lab
Gen X Laboratories
International Lyme and Associated Disease Society
Fisher Wallace device
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Christine: Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the 360 health biz podcasts. And today you have the beautiful and wonderful co-host is with the most is Kendra Perry and humble me, Christine Hansen, and we have a wonderful guest today, Dr. Darin Ingels. We're going to talk about Lyme. So we are super excited, lime not you know, the beautiful green fruit that you put into your Mojito but a disease, we're a little bit, I'm already feeling the summer over here so. But I'm super excited because we talk about this all the time, and we would like to know a lot more about it. So we think this is going to be a great episode for you guys out there too, and if you like our episodes, if you love it, then do the same thing as this wonderful, and express and Kendra is going to talk about because she left us a wonderful review.
Kendra: Yeah. So we have a five-star review from TM Narin, and I know who you are, and I really appreciate it. And the title of her review says, "I'm learning, and laughing." And then she says, "Great podcasts. I'm gearing up to start my online business, and I'm so happy to hear the tips from Kendra and Christine. What a great vibe. Love your energy ladies." I think that's kind of like our tagline, learning and laughing because that was pretty much of what we talk about. Good content, but we make a lot of stupid jokes along the way. We kind of like to take life too seriously. Right? That's how we roll, so that's pretty exciting.
Christine: All right. And so let me introduce it a little bit more to our wonderful guests. And if you want to know what we all look like, then don't forget to go to our website 360 health biz podcast.com and you can check out each episode and it has our video on that too.
Christine: So, and especially today, we're all pretty today for once. There's a couple of that I don't want you to look at, but this one you can. Let me introduce you to the beautiful, Dr. Ingles. So, Dr. Ingles is a respected leader in natural medicine with more than 26 years of experience in the healthcare field. He's a board certified in integrative for pediatrics and fellow of the American and the Academy of Environmental Medicine. Dr. Ingles has been published extensively and is the author of the Lyme solution a five-part plan to fight the inflammatory autoimmune response and beat Lyme disease. And I know for a fact that this has been published Internationally, so I still need to read it, but I'm super excited and I have it, I bought it. It's a comprehensive natural approach to treat Lyme disease and who doesn't want that. He specializes in the disease, autism and chronic immune dysfunction. And he uses diet, nutrients, herbs, homeopathy, and immunotherapy to help his patients achieve better health. So it's totally down our alley. So welcome. Do I have to say, Dr. Ingle? So can I call you Darren?
Dr, Darren: Darren will be fine. That's what my mother calls me.
Christine: Okay good. perfect.
Kendra: Welcome to the show. Darren, we're so excited to have you.
Dr, Darren: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Christine: All right. So we know that you started your career, and your story would just be chatted about it just before. Is that you got interested in Lyme kind of because you had to, right?
Dr, Darren: Yeah. I developed Lyme disease back in 2002 when I was living in Connecticut. Ironically it was about three weeks before I was set to open my own practice. So as I was getting geared up, getting all the furniture and the fixtures, and everything in order, I started getting very sick. I had a very high fever and joint pain. I felt like my back was broken, a migraine headache, the worst I've ever had in my life. Numbness, tingling, the whole gamut of symptoms. And I had meningitis when I was in college. I thought I had meningitis again. And as I was getting ready to go to the hospital, someone had noticed I had a big bullseye rash on the back of my leg. And I said, oh, okay, well now I know what it is. So I underwent treatment. And after a few days, I have actually felt fine. But since I was opening my own business, I was doing everything, very long hours.
Dr, Darren: And after about eight months of keeping up with that schedule, I started to relapse, started getting joint pains again and started getting the [00:22:24]Thyropathy. So I said, I did this before and it was fine. So I went back on treatment, which at the time was Doxycyline, and it didn't help. And then I changed the antibiotics, and it didn't help. And I went through nine months of changing antibiotic protocols and actually got a lot worse. So I lost 30 pounds. My Gut was a mess and I just really wasn't feeling well. So I was fortunate that I found a doctor in New York City, his name is doctor Jiang, he's a Chinese medical doctor and herbalists, and he started treating me with Chinese herbs.
Dr, Darren: And really after about three weeks of following that protocol, I was 80 85% improved. So it was kind of my reminder that I need to go back to my nature pathic roots, and really start taking better care of myself, eat better. I followed his protocol for quite a long time, and it took about two years after that time to feel like I got my health back, but eventually got to the point where I was living symptom-free. So I just really started applying what I was doing to myself, to my patients and sound that they were improving faster than what I'd been doing before.
Christine: Kendra you were going to say something, I think.
Kendra: Yeah, I was just going to say, it's interesting because all the people that I've talked to who have Lyme like, yeah, they go the antibiotic route. And I feel like a lot of them aren't aware that there might be a different way. And so what you're saying is that you went 100% natural after you kind of gave up on antibiotics and that was able to actually get rid of the Lyme infection. Correct.
Dr, Darren: Right. And now having done this for 20 years, I've seen so many people who've gone down that path, and for people who've gone down that path. If it's worked for you, great. What I'm saying is the people who've tried that path and it hasn't worked and they ended up worse for the wear. So I just want people to know that there are other options and for people who've studied herbs, you now know how powerful they can be. But in my world now, Lyme treatment is so much more than just about killing the bug.
Dr, Darren: It's really a comprehensive approach to the person, and the way I think of Lyme is that it really just becomes a catalyst for all these other things that happen in the body so it can disrupt your immune system, it can disrupt your endocrine system. And we start seeing thyroid problems, adrenal problems, reproductive hormone problems, all these other types of immune issues. So it's not really just about killing the bug, that's now actually a very small part of the treatment. It's really about addressing all these other factors that get disrupted when you get exposed to Lyme. So when I wrote my book, it was a sort of a top to bottom. How do we go through everything and trying to get the body and better working order? It's really ultimately about fixing the terrain.
Christine: So let me just ask you a question to get back to basics. So Lyme, I knew that there was Lyme disease, right? Also because I see it in my clients, or my clients come to me and they told me that they've been diagnosed, but that they are cured. And I use air quotes here because they did the antibiotic regimen. So Lyme, what I knew about it is just the tick is the first thought that I have, being bitten by a tick and getting Lyme. Right. I thought. Okay, so the tick bites you, and it's something in there that is then infecting you. So it's not a virus, it's a bug. I didn't even know that.
Dr, Darren: Yeah. So Lyme is actually a bacteria, it's called Borrelia. And there is the first strain that we identified back in the 1980s, early eighties it was called Borrelia Burgdorferi. We have now learned that they're about a hundred strains in the North American, about 300 strains worldwide of Borrelia. We don't even know how many of those strains actually can cause Lyme disease. Our best guesses that there's probably somewhere between 10 and 12 that seem to do most of the damage. And what's interesting is that if you go to different parts of the world, the strain of Borrelia that's more dominant is different. So the strains we see here in North America are different than the strains we see in Europe, which are different than the strains they see in Africa and so forth.
Dr, Darren: So there are different variations of Borrelia around the world. This speaks a little bit to why testing becomes so problematic because the testing out there really is only looking for Borrelia Burgdorferi. So unless you start ordering tests for these other strains of Borrelia, and again, we don't even have testing for really all of them. It's very easy that if you happen to get a different strain of Borrelia that it doesn't show up on the test, your test looks negative and the doctor dismisses you and says, "Oh yeah, you don't have Lyme disease." Well, it's possible that your test is negative only because you've got a different strain of Borrelia.
Kendra: Wow, that's so interesting. So how common is Lyme disease? And I'm guessing it's probably hard to know for certain if a lot of people are getting misdiagnosed, but I feel like how I perceive Lyme is something that's very rare. It doesn't happen very much. But is it may be more prevalent than I think it is.
Dr, Darren: Well, I think it certainly depends on where you live in the world. When I was living in Connecticut and the Northeast part of the United States, the central Midwest part of the United States are endemic for Lyme. We know that's where the bulk of the cases come from, but it's now been reported in all 50 states in the United States. We now have about 300,000 new cases of Lyme disease in the US and about 65,000 new cases in Europe. That's what's reported. We know it's unreported, so I don't know that we really have a true idea about how many people actually get it every year. But I mean in reality, we are talking about millions and millions of people worldwide living with Lyme disease. And we do know from the World Health Organization that that number keeps increasing.
Dr, Darren: So the rate at which Lyme has grown is really been somewhat exponential and every year it gets worse, and really no signs of slowing down. I think the World Health Organization came out with a paper suggesting that climate change really is one of the driving forces because no ticks aren't being killed off, there. so they are able to repopulate. When I was living in Connecticut, we kind of dependent on our cold winters to kill off the ticks. Well, we've had pretty warm winters and the ticks don't go away, and there's even a couple of studies that show that the techs can get under the leaves and survive the snow. So-
Christine: It's so creepy.
Dr, Darren: A lot of the natural predators for ticks like possums, that population is dwindling. So the things that would normally get rid of ticks aren't getting rid of ticks and the tick population is able to expand. And then we've got some other research showing that birds are carrying those ticks from one region to another. So I think that's why we see over the last couple of decades, it used to be sort of that Northeast corner of the US, well now it's down the entire Eastern Seaboard. It's on the West coast, and we just see it pushing inward. So it's just one of those things where we're seeing more and more cases. But again, I don't think we have a really good handle on how many people are living with Lyme. But it's a lot.
Kendra: Yeah. We had Dr. Evan Hirsch, I'm the show a couple of weeks ago, and you know him oversees of course as well as a part of the mindset community that I talked about before and he said it's tricky because a lot of people are misdiagnosed. So because the symptoms are so tricky, sometimes they are often misdiagnosed as being having arthritis, or any joint pains, or anything like that. So can you talk a little bit more about that because I think it might be interesting that, if you see a client, or a patient and you kind of see their symptoms, but you also know that it's not necessarily what you would think at first sight, and why that might actually be Lyme because there're some particularities to it that way.
Dr, Darren: Yeah. Well, we call Lyme the great imitator or the great mimic. It looks like a lot of other things and again I think this is part of why it gets misdiagnosed quite frequently. It's just very easy to confuse it with something else, there're two things that are very characteristic to Lyme that is really unique, and we don't think of any other condition. One is the bullseye rash. There is no other condition that we know of the causes that Bullseye rash, there's a lot of other skin rashes of course, and you can have other Lyme rashes that's not a bullseye rash, but when you see that target lesion or bull's eye rash, that's a pretty telltale sign again. We've not identified anything else that mimics that.
Dr, Darren: So the bullseye rash is one. The other thing that's very unique to Lyme is what we call migratory joint pain. So one day it's my right shoulder, the next day it's my left knee, and then it's my right ankle and then it's my left elbow. When you start to see the joint pain that seems to kind of migrate throughout your body. Again, there's no other condition that we know of that causes that. There's a lot of other conditions that cause inflammatory arthritis but not that migratory nature. So those two signs, when I hear about that from someone that's a big red flag that Lyme is probable, beyond that the symptoms can be often quite vague. But we talked about joint pain, persistent headaches, fever that's unexplained, chills, swollen lymph nodes, persistent fatigue, numbness and tingling in your extremities, or anywhere in your skin. You can get Bell's palsy, which is kind of drooping of one side of your face. Again, memory problems, coordination issues, balance problems, behavior issues.
Dr, Darren: We see that a lot in children. People will start getting what I kind of called newly acquired dyslexia. Where they start transposing letters and numbers. People complain their handwriting gets worse. I will see sleep problems its taken a lot of endocrine problems. People all of a sudden become hyperthyroid for no reason. So it's a pretty wide range of symptoms. I think for me when I hear about things that are neurological and arthritic, that combination together for me again is a red flag that I investigate, and at least do the testing to see if Lyme is part of the problem. Because again, I think there are very few things that cause neurological problems and arthritic problems. Lyme and other infectious agents have the capacity to do that. But Lyme certainly at the top of that list.
Kendra: Let me ask you this. Do you get Lyme will you always see that bull's eye or does sometimes-
Christine: That was my question.
Kendra: We're sharing a brain, Christine,
Dr, Darren: I know it's really interesting actually. If you read the CDC website, they say something like 70 to 80% of people who get infected get that bullseye rash. But the research does not corroborate that at all. And the actual incidence of getting that rash is probably somewhere around 30%. There is a lot of variation in the research I've read anywhere from 20 to 40%. So we'll say 30% is an average. So realistically, less than half the people who get infected get that rash. So again, for people who get that rash, that's a pretty reliable marker. They'd been exposed. But the absence of the rash certainly doesn't exclude the possibility of Lyme. And I think that's the bulk of the cases that I see, is people have no recollection of a tick bite, no recollection of a bullseye rash, but they all of a sudden start developing all these mysterious symptoms, and they've had a thousand tests and everything keeps coming back normal again. That's my red flag that we should investigate Lyme or some other type of tickborne illness.
Christine: And there are other things that can come with the Lyme other than the Borrelia. Right? There's like the co-infections.
Dr, Darren: Yeah. There's a lot we call co-infections and I swear every time I go to a Lyme conference, that list gets longer. So we know like a lot of the ticks up the wing when they found that something like 33 to 37% of those ticks carries something else other than Lyme. So things like Bartonellemia, which is a bacteria, Babesia which is a parasite, Anaplasma, which is a bacteria, rocky mountain spotted fever or Ehrlicia. One of the latest ones is called plasmids virus. It's actually a virus. Obviously, it can be very deadly, caused a few deaths over the last few years between New York, Massachusetts.
Dr, Darren: So it's very challenging when you've got a patient who has these collections symptoms. I would say, well, what do you test for? And we try and do as comprehensive testing as possible. Fortunately, we do have labs out there that provide that, but you really kind of have to take a good detailed history, really know what's going on with the patient, where their exposure has been, where they've been traveling to. That might help narrow down what you need to look at. But in reality, when I test people, I'm not just testing for Lyme. We're going through the gamut of a lot of the common co-infections as well.
Christine: Okay. So talk a little bit more about that because that's where Kendra and my eyes are lightening up writing the tests. So give specifics where exactly, which labs do you prefer because I'm thinking we talked about this before like we love some book, we don't even test for it, the doctors just send them straight to Germany because there are more specialized facilities there. But is there like a way where I'd say, I have a client coming to me, and they say I've been tested but it was negative, which I'm sure it pretty much was it, I'm pretty sure some of my clients still had that. What do I do? Like, do I have to tell them to ask the doctor to send me a prescription with exactly the strains. Is there an International lab where could send it to? Is there one in the states where I could see to find something? How do you do it? How do you test in?
Dr, Darren: Yeah. So, again, depending on where you live, sort of dictates for me which labs might be best because not all labs are available in all areas of the world. So for those of us living in the United States, I use a lab called Medical Diagnostic Labs in New Jersey. I like them because they offer Lyme testing and co-infection testing, but for here they bill insurance so for people it's nice that their insurance actually pays for something. So I like them. Also If you ever have a tick on you, you can take the tick and you can send it to them, and they'll take the tick, so you can find out if the tick can cure Lyme or any of those co-infections. Gen X is another great lab in Palo Alto, California.
Dr, Darren: They offer the gamut of Lyme and co-infection testing. They're a great lab, they just don't bill insurance outside of Medicare, which is our national insurance. If you lived across the pond, in your neck of the woods. Armin lab is a great lab, I know a lot of people in Germany use Armin. So Armin labs is a little bit different because all the other labs out there are doing antibody testing. [in audible]Our testing. So PCRs looking for fragments of the DNA of the organism. Armin lab is actually looking at a cytokine response. So it's actually looking at a different part of the immune system. So one of the advantages of that lab is that if someone has any kind of immune issue or immune deficiency where maybe they don't have a good antibody response, the Armin labs isn't looking at antibodies.
Dr, Darren: It's looking at cytokines. So you can still have an appropriate cytokine response and not an antibody response might still pick it up. And I've had some patients that have done testing through some of the labs here in the US. Their previous lab was negative. Now they do Armin and they're able to identify some of these things. So Lyme is a clinical diagnosis. I think it's really important. People understand that the piece of paper just there to kind of help validate our suspicion. But we treat people, we don't treat pieces of paper. So if all these tests come back negative and we've ruled everything else out and people have the symptoms of Lyme, I would still treat them. I think every practitioner finds the labs that they like to work with you. That's what works for you.
Dr, Darren: I mean I think they all offer good testing because if you look at the sensitivity and specificity of these labs versus just the run of the mill reference lab, it's much better. But I think between, MDL, Gen X, Armin, those are the three I probably use the most. Again, there are other labs out there that offer testing, so find what works for you. But what I would suggest is that don't just rely on your regular reference lab for their test kits just don't seem to have the sensitivity that we want or specificity to give you reliable results. And I've had plenty of patients over the years that went to quest, and a lab corp and got a test done. It was completely negative. We ran it through a lab that specializes in Lyme and now it lights up like a Christmas tree. So there is some validity in using a lab that does better testing.
Kendra: Are you familiar with the vibrant wellness tickborne panel? I've had a few people kind of pointed me in that direction.
Dr, Darren: Yeah, it's pretty new. They've only been really in that profile I think for a handful of months, in fact, I just got a work report yesterday on that patient. On paper, it seems to be fine. I don't know what technology they're using, what test kits they use. I haven't investigated it yet, on paper it seemed to look fine. I was a microbiologist before I was a doctor, actually used to do Lyme testing for a living. So it's changed a lot since I was in the lab 30 years ago. But I do have a pretty good sense of lab testing, and how things are validated. Some of the tests I'm a little bit concerned about is some of the DNA technology. There's a couple of labs out there that do purely DNA.
Dr, Darren: I think there are some inherent problems with that, where there's at least a couple of labs that I'm not sure that they go through the process of validating their primers. So with DNA technology, the way it's done is that you've got a thing called the primer. What a primer does is it tags, a certain part of the genetic sequence that says this is Lyme or this is Babesia. This is whatever you're looking for. Well if you can imagine there's a lot of overlapping genetic code in microbes. So whatever you've tagged is actually specific to that organism. So there's a whole process you have to go through to validate that primer.
Dr, Darren: And if you use unvalidated primers, it's very possible that you think you're finding Lyme, but you could actually finding something else. So if the lab doesn't really spend the time and money and use validated primers, your results would be speculative. So I'm a little hesitant to use some of the labs that use. Pure DNA technology just for that reason. And I've seen some reports come back where they come back testing positive for everything. They have Lyme, and Bartonella, and Babesia, and are looking at Anaplasma. Well, just realistically I think it's highly likely [inaudible 00:21:33] carry all of that.
Dr, Darren: I mean it's not impossible, but it seems unlikely. So yeah. I think I'd rather stick with some of the labs that don't necessarily do only that. That's something you could use in conjunction with some of the other things, but looking at the immune response tells us a little bit about activity, tells us a little bit about how your immune system is responding. So again, at the end of the day, Lyme is ultimately a clinical diagnosis. You have to use your best clinical judgment. But I think we all feel better when we've got something on paper that helps support our treatment because of course, we don't want to put people through unnecessary treatment either.
Christine: Totally. That would be my next question actually. So obviously if you want to read about the whole treatment people have to buy a book, that is obviously the first thing. But if we would just to condense it a little bit and say, okay, through my journey I've learned that this and this, this may be is really key, and it's something that has been really helpful to my clients. So let's even say if I have someone here in Europe and I think I have a suspicion and I'm just like, okay I want to put a part of the protocol, I really want to focus in the Lyme as well because I think that is a reason why you're feeling the way you do. Because I mean Kendra and I, we both have our niches but in the end, very often the way that our clients feel doesn't have to do with our niche actually.
Kendra: Yeah, totally.
Christine: It doesn't have anything to do with our niche, it's just a side effect of the underlying cause. Right. So what would be a couple of things that you'd say to practitioners, if the suspected, even if you cannot test for it at this moment, here is one or two things that you can try with your clients and see if it makes a difference? And if it does, that might be a very well indicate that you should dig deeper into Lyme.
Dr, Darren: Well, I think initially you got to go very basic. And the first thing I always look at with my patients is the gut. The gut is so critically important for your overall health, and since up to 80% of your immune function that comes from the gut, if that's not functioning well, everything else you do, it's going to be harder to get the results you want. So I think just very fundamentally, go back, make sure everything in the gut is working the way it's supposed to. Are people digesting their food, assimilating their food. Is there any element of gut inflammation? So I think you can start with that foundational stuff. And of course, there's a lot of nutrients to help support gut repair is that whether you're using probiotics are glutamine or digestive enzymes or butyrate. It's kind of whatever your patient needs to take that. So I think between focusing on the gut and diet. Diet is enormous and I can't sort of understate how important that is for patients because I've seen plenty of people who take antibiotics, or if they're doing something very proactive to treat the infection, but they're not making a lot of progress, and we kind of go back through their diet and their gut and it's like, well their gut is mess. They're eating like crap. And you're not really that surprised since you're not getting better.
Dr, Darren: So I talk a lot in my book about specifically an alkaline diet and an alkaline diet for people who aren't familiar. It's just eating foods that support your tissue, being really in a more alkaline state except for your skin, your stomach, your bladder. And for women, the vaginal area, which is very acidic to protect against outside invaders, the rest of your tissues, pretty alkaline. So when you eat foods that really break down into a more alkaline state that allows those cells to function the way they're supposed to. So all the enzymes work the way they're supposed to. And surprising when I was writing the book, I was doing all this research looking on an alkaline diet. And of course, I've known about it forever. And there are books that have been written for decades. But surprisingly, I only found three studies on an alkaline diet. It's not something actually been very well researched at all. Apparently-
Christine: Yeah, I say that all the time.
Dr, Darren: I was really surprised. Now, however, the three studies that were done were all very positive and they found it helps facilitate tissue repair, nerve repair, bone growth. So there's a lot of positive things that happen by following an alkaline diet and having tried different diets with my Lyme patients over the years. I mean we've tried, you know, Autoimmune Paleo, and we've tried Keto and we've tried Candida Diet and so forth. I found that this diet is the most sustainable and easy to follow, people will actually stick with this.
Dr, Darren: And I think if we kind of go back to our true Paleo forefathers, this is the way they truly ate, we mostly a plant-based diet. We killed when we could, we did eat animal protein but it wasn't the bulk of our diet and of course, we didn't eat junk food, and we didn't eat anything that was sort of came in farming much later. So we really try and stay away from foods that are very acid forming in the body. So that's dairy products, that's junk food, that's coffee, things of that nature. So the coffee is the one that kills everybody because they love coffee and-
Christine: Tell me about it.
Dr, Darren: I can speak tone it-
Kendra: Get right down right before this call.
Dr, Darren: No, when I was in the throes of Lyme, I was a regular coffee drinker and I found I would drink coffee my neuropathy would flare up, and if it got worse I would stop. It would get better. I started again and we get worse. I mean, so I tried it a few times and it was pretty consistent. Even just a couple of steps was enough that would flare me. So this concept that, well it's only a little bit, well it depends on your sensitivity level and I think a little for some people is too much. So I tell people when they start this just tell the line. I know it kind of sucks, but follow the program and if you can stick with it you're going to get the best results out of it. And now realistically over time as people improve, they can be a bit more flexible with the Diet. But when you're initially starting it, it's better just to kind of stick to the program in that way that you're going to get the most benefit from it. So I think if people really start focusing on diet gut first, then you can start moving into more therapies that get into actually treating an active infection. And again, I'm a big proponent of using herbs. I mean, I've probably written one antibiotic prescription in a decade. I just don't find the need for it.
Dr, Darren: I think herbs are extremely powerful if you know how to use them in the right way. And fortunately there's a lot of companies out there that make really great herbal products, so you don't have to put everything together on your own. And if you're trained in herbs, you can use companies that put these formulas together that really are effective at treating Lyme. All these co-infections, unlike when you use antibiotics, you have to know what your treating because the protocol for Lyme might be different from Bartonella, which might be different than but Babesia and so forth. The beauty of the herbs is that a lot of the herbs kind of cover all of it. So you have to make a very little variation with all of the co-infections.
Dr, Darren: There are some cases where we know these herbs a little bit more effective against Babesia, this one's maybe a little bit better against Bartonella. But by and large, I was at a conference with Dr. Lee Cowden and he's got a whole protocol and the heat developed with neutral medics. And he kept talking about a lot of these herbs being keep herbs, k e e p, keep herbs. Keeper herbs and I finally asked him, I said, I don't really need to keep herbs. because well it kills everything except people. I'm like, okay. I guess that makes sense. So a lot of these herbs they're good against bacteria and viruses and fungi and parasites. So again, we're covering kind of a pretty broad base, but what I like about the herbs too is that we don't see the same level of gut disruption that you get with antibiotics.
Christine: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I feel bad for Lyme people because some of the people I've spoken to, they've spent a year on like all these antibiotics and you're just like, oh my God. Like, you're sure, maybe you can get rid of the Lyme, but like what is done to your system? Like you're going to have to now recover from antibiotic use. Right?
Dr, Darren: Well exactly. And I think when I was doing some of the research and my professional experience, people need to understand that when you're on antibiotics, of course, you're compromising your normal microbiome. And we always think of the gut. But remember your microbiome is more than your gut microbiome. You've got the skin microbiome, bladder microbiome. Yeah, we've got a microbiome everywhere now. So it's disrupting that whole ecology of your system. We also know that a lot of antibiotics damage your mitochondria most of the time patients I work with are tired. Well, it's going to be really hard getting your energy back if your mitochondrial damaged, that's the powerhouse of the cell is literally what creates energy.
Dr, Darren: So between wiping out your microbiome, disrupting your mitochondria. We have to look at the risk-benefit ratio. And I think here are the risk really outweigh the benefits. And when you look at the research, there's a lot of studies that show that when you've got chronic Lyme anyway, antibiotics just really aren't that effective. You might get a little bit of benefit, and I've seen this clinically, the people they're on antibiotics are feeling a little bit better the minute they come off antibiotics within days to weeks, they're back to square one. So you really haven't accomplished anything long term or there's just no benefit at all. I mean, I'll give you an example. I have one patient, I was working with a who had been working with another practitioner who's very well known in the Lyme world and uses a lot of antibiotics. She had been on antibiotics for 12 years continuously.
Kendra: Oh my God, how do you survive-
Dr, Darren: Has been hospitalized three times because of the antibiotics-[crosstalk 00:30:34].
Kendra: My body was a rack like, I couldn't tolerate them. I had an allergic reaction and then going into shock. So now we're going to use that again. But it destroyed my gut. Like I wasn't already just say no.
Dr, Darren: Considering the diversity of your gut in particular even if you take probiotics, it's not possible to repopulate everything that comprises your gut. It's a drop in the bucket. So when you look at animal studies, when they give an animal at least a mouse, one dose of antibiotics, it can take up to six months to repopulate the rack gut. So what happens for humans when we're on for weeks and months at a time or longer. This particular person was hospitalized three times because of the antibiotics because they were so toxic. So I hear this from people who've been on antibiotics, and they've done well if that's been your path, great. But again, I'm seeing the people where that hasn't been the case and they've actually not done well on antibiotics.
Dr, Darren: So, that's where I'm kind of coming from. But for people who even have acute Lyme, I've treated with herbs at works perfectly fine. We are able to get people through their acute stages again without causing a lot of damage to the gut or the Mitochondria. So at this point, I'm just not sure where the antibiotics fit in. My one patient that I did right antibiotics for, this particular person had a very longstanding case of Lyme. I actually use the lab called Fry labs. So Fry lab is very interesting. Stephen Fry is the medical director, he started doing a lot of microscopy and then what they do is take your blood, and they look under a microscope. And what's really interesting about it is that he's finding a lot of BioFilm in people's blood who've been diagnosed with Lyme.
Dr, Darren: BioFilm is not Borrelia. What he's finding is yeast, fungi. So it's almost like, the Lyme sets the stage that yeast becomes more problematic, but unless people aren't getting classic Yeast Infections. I mean, they're not getting itchy and for women vaginal yeast infections, oral thrush. They're having other types of problems, so we know that just no yeast can be much more difficult to kill than bacteria. It's a more complex organism and if it's varied in BioFilm, it may be even more challenging. So there is an antibiotic protocol of helping to break down BioFilm, get rid of the yeast. And the antibiotics I prescribed were actually more for the BioFilm. And then we used a Doxycyclin combination with an antifungal and these patients actually been responding very well. Having tried a lot of other natural things for a long time that really didn't provide any benefit. But I think in his case the Lyme was really the lesser part of the problem. It was probably this deep-rooted yeast that never had really been addressed. But that's my one case of antibiotics in a decade so. Fortunately, those people do pretty well with herbs.
Christine: Yeah. And we always say there's a time and place for everything, right? It's not about beating ourselves up if you need it, you need it. So Kendra and I whenever we interview people, we want to learn so much more. Right? So we're like, now I want to become an expert in this. I need to learn everything fast here. It's just to do about like we have to kind of submit. But if we have someone, where we really acutely suspect that they have Lyme, I don't have the energy at a one to read up on everything that has to do with Lyme. So how do you refer out? So would we tell them, for example, to connect with you? Is there like a community where we could say, check out this website and you will find a practitioner that is reputable in helping you with Lyme? How do you work with your patients?
Dr, Darren: Well, again, I have people who call me from all over the world and they're looking for someone local to work with. Certainly here on North America, there's a group called ILADS, the International Lyme and Associated Disease Society. And they do have doctors around the world that have members, so people who are part of this group have gone through more extensive training, online diagnosis, and treatment. Now most of the doctors who go to that training, they do use antibiotics as part of their treatment. There are some of those practitioners that do practice a bit more like me and focus more on natural substances, but at least you'll get something where most doctors tend to dismiss people who have Lyme so they can go to the ILADS website.
Dr, Darren: They don't post the list of doctors on the website, but you can email them and then they'll send you whomever you say, Hey, I live in Toronto or New York, and then they'll say, "No, these are people we know who are in the area." Again, I keep a very short list of just people I personally know whom I think they do a really nice job of treating Lyme, people are always welcome to contact my office and I can at least try and see if I know someone in the area. I do work remotely with people so people are really in an area where they just can't find anyone. Fortunately for the kinds of things we're doing, we can do remotely if it's about giving you guidance on diets and nutrition and herbs, that's done pretty easily through that format.
Christine: That's what I wanted to hear.
Kendra: I have a question for you, so the few clients I've had who've had Lyme and they want to work with me anyways. What I've noticed is that when I put them through a protocol and I do a lot of like gut stuff, I'm really big into mineral testing. They don't respond well like anyone else responds. They seem to be highly reactive. Like every time you try to give them something, they have this like crazy reaction and we just whittled down what they can eat and what they can take in. At some point you're like, I don't know what to do anymore. Why is that?
Dr, Darren: Yeah. There's something about being exposed to Lyme that makes a lot of people very hypersensitive to their world. All of a sudden they do have food allergies, they become sensitive to mold, and pollen, and dust, and chemicals. I can only imagine that we've got some research that when you get exposed to Lyme, it triggers really an autoimmune kind of problem. Well that TH2 pathway, T helper cell 2 that drives autoimmunity is the same pathway that drives allergy. So I think that by sort of up-regulating that part of the immune system, you're sort of accidentally developing all these allergies and sensitivities that you didn't have before. And I've seen that pretty consistently in my population as well. So in that case, again, it's really about going back and being very simple and very basic. You can't go in and throw the kitchen sink at these folks.
Dr, Darren: You have to start very slow with everything. So whether its herbs or any supplement, start small work your way up, you have to establish tolerance first. Once you've established tolerance, then you can start increasing the dose. But for those people, in particular, I love Tri-Salts. It's probably my favorite supplement. It's a combination of sodium, potassium and calcium bicarbonate, and the bicarbonates something we've been using an environmental medicine for 60 years or longer.
Dr, Darren: What we know with bicarbonate is that's an alkalizing agent. So when you alkalize the body, you down-regulate that inflammatory response and allergic response. I mean, I've had kids having asthma attacks that parents can stop it by giving their child Alka Seltzer gold or Tri-Salts every hour. So we know that it has this capacity to do that. So for people who are constantly reacting to their world, this is just an inexpensive, easy way to start help down regulating that response so that they can just tolerate things better. Because you're going to have a hard time, with a lot of therapies if they don't tolerate it. So this is just a really nice way to kind of set the base to get them not so reactive. And then you can start layering in your other things as you feel like they tolerate it.
Kendra: So that was potassium bicarbonate.
Dr, Darren: Well Tri-Salts as a combination of sodium, potassium, and calcium bicarbonate there's actually two companies that make Tri-Salts. One uses sodium, potassium, and calcium. The other one uses sodium, potassium, and magnesium bicarbonates. So it's really for the bicarbonate more than the minerals attached to it. The amount of calcium, magnesium, potassium you get is relatively small. It's really more for the bicarbonate.
Christine: So that basically in effect helps break down the BioFilm and make them less reactive. Is that what you're saying?
Dr, Darren: No, it probably has very little do with the BioFilm. We don't exactly know. It's probably more about alkalizing the body and shifting the way the cell functions. But we've been using this for years and environmental medicine and we just know clinically it helps make people less reactive, reduces inflammation. Like, if someone tells me they went into Yankee candle shop, and they started getting a headache from the scent, I'd say try taking Tri-Salts every hour, and then their headache goes away. So does has seems to have some impact on down regulating that immune response. But beyond that, I mean no one, as far as I know, has ever done any research on it.
Christine: So interesting. I'm like blown away. You have like all these different levers in your head going like, okay, do this and this connection, this connection. So yeah,
Dr, Darren: The cheap way around that too is Arm and Hammer Baking Soda, Baking Soda sodium bicarbonate. We know the potassium by carbonate is more effective than sodium bicarbonate, but in a pinch, most people keep that yellow box in their fridge. So if somebody needed something, and they didn't have access, they can just pull out, take a little bit of that powder out of the box, mixing some water and start drinking. It doesn't taste great, but it does the job.
Christine: And so you could use it like an as needed. If somebody is having some flare up or reaction to something like you could try it every hour as needed, and it would reduce that response.
Kendra: Okay. That's so super cool.
Christine: That's going to be really helpful for some of my people.
Kendra: For sure.
Dr, Darren: Cheap and easy. I'm all for it.
Kendra: I like it. Definitely.
Dr, Darren: Well, people with Lyme they spend so much money on treatments. It's nice to have something that's inexpensive, easy to do, accessible. So this is a kind of a staple in my practice. Most of my patients end up on Tri Salt at some point just as a way of kind of down-regulating that inflammatory response.
Christine: I love it. Definitely.
Kendra: Interesting. All right. What haven't we talked about? We've covered a lot.
Christine: This is really good. My brain is starting to like whop.
Dr, Darren: Well, I think the other thing I would add that's important for people listening to this is, again we're thinking about the person as a whole. We have to really look at lifestyle as well. I think it gets overlooked a lot. And the mind-body connection is horribly important. When people have had any kind of chronic illness, it's very easy to get caught in the mire of not feeling well every day. And I think we spend very little time helping people with their mental aspects of dealing with a chronic illness. So I'm a big advocate for doing a few things to help improve that. One is to make sure that you have a support network there for you. And what ends up happening is that even if you've got family and friends, people say, "Oh how you feeling today Darren?
Dr, Darren: The knee jerk response is great." And deep down you're like, no, actually I feel pretty horrible. And you want to be nice, you want to be polite, you don't really think people want to know the truth. And so it's really hard sometimes when you're not feeling well to be able to share that even with some of your closest friends and family. So it's nice to have kind of an independent third party that can be part of your team, where you can just go and unload and be honest and it's okay. So whether it's a therapist support group you're involved with there's a lot of avenues to do that. But I think it's important that people have that space that they can really unload and be open about everything and not feel like they're burdening other people because again, your mind and bodies are very much connected, and it's just human nature to get caught up in that. So to have that safety net, I think it's very helpful. In addition, I think making sure that we get good sleep.
Dr, Darren: Christine this is right up your alley. The most people see once they get exposed to Lyme, and they may have been great sleepers before, but now they're terrible sleepers, whether it's difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep again with all the research out there on the importance of getting that deep restorative sleep. That's when neurons repair themselves. That's when the rest of your tissue repairs itself. How are you going to heal a damaged brain or a damaged joint, if you never get that deep sleep, and you're just getting under the radar and we know that a lot of the sleep medicines out there kind of get you under the radar but don't necessarily get you deep sleep. We have a lot of natural ways of okay ... We could have a whole another podcast just on sleep, but it's-
Christine: Actually, we've never done that.
Kendra: We should do that. Great idea.
Dr, Darren: Sleep and chronic illness. Then they go hand in hand and not just winding.
Kendra: No need to view absolutely.
Dr, Darren: But if you think about biologically this is where your body repairs itself and the more that you miss of that, the harder it is to feel well. Again, I know for my sleep, I mean I was never a great sleeper before I had Lyme but definitely, after Lyme, I became a much worst sleeper and with the interesting paradox here is that you're bone tired during the day, and you think you would just be exhausted. The night would come and you would just be zonked out, and then you're kind of in this tired wired state. So you've got this adrenal dysfunction, messing with your circadian rhythm, so you're not sleeping well, you're not sleeping deeply, but you're exhausted all day and it just becomes a vicious cycle. So my feeling is whatever you need to do to get good quality sleep.
Dr, Darren: And I think for most Americans anyway, a lot of it's about, put down the iPad make sure that when you're getting ready to go to bed, you're disengaging from all that stimulating activity. So I tell people an hour, and a half to two hours before you actually want to go to bed, no electronics, read a book by the candles, take a bath, do something that's actually going to get your brain in that right state. I've actually started using a thing called the Fisher Wallace device, which is a little machine that you clip to your ears, and it basically sends a wavelength through your brain that helps sort of down-regulated and turns it off. So for some people something like that can be helpful in it, do saying-
Kendra: I want that now I need it.
Christine: I can see like reminds me of the hot Ma thing. What is it that, yeah,
Dr, Darren: Actually, I just got it right here. This is a Fisher Wallace device.
Christine: Nice. And tell me what's it called Fisher?
Dr, Darren: Fisher Wallace. It's brand spanking new. I got my own one right here. Since there is a video podcast, I'll just get a quick show of what it is. This is it. It's really simple. It's just a little box, and it's got some wires on it. Then you can see these pads, but the pads up on your temples, on your ears, there's a couple of locations you can put it, and there are just two or three settings on it and you start off at the first set and see how it goes. And you can work your way up as you feel like you tolerate it, but you do two sessions twice a day. It takes about 15 to 20 minutes each session, but it just gets your body into a sort of a more relaxed state.
Dr, Darren: So for anyone who's got ADD, anxiety, insomnia, it can be very beneficial. And in the United States, this is an FDA medically approved device off and you can get your insurance to pay for it. But if your insurance doesn't pay for it, I think it cost seven or $800. But again, I've used it with a handful of people and they've been responding quite well. So for people who are tired of taking one more pill, this is a really easy thing that people can do to help induce a deeper sleep.
Christine: That's awesome.
Kendra: So what does it feel like, like when you put it on and you switch it on.
Dr, Darren: Yeah, it's a wavelength. It's really below your threshold. So it's not like you feel a buzzing or anything like that. You don't really feel anything. Do you feel the dampness of the sponge on your head? That's pretty much it.
Christine: Okay. And you can relax while you're using it or can you do.
Dr, Darren: Well, you could do other things with it. I mean, once it's attached, you could walk around and do things. I usually tell people just do it when you do kind of meditation while you're doing it.
Christine: Yeah, that makes sense.
Dr, Darren: Just to indulge it there on your phone, playing candy crush or whatever you do and just to sit there quietly put on some nice music, help your brain, help you. So trying to get into a bit of a meditation state probably helps that a little bit better.
Christine: I think I'm going to grab me, I love that.
Kendra: I'm someone who's never been a great sleeper. I go through periods where I sleep like a boss, but other times, I just go through these periods where I don't sleep well. So I've been looking for something like that, so I'm going to check it out.
Dr, Darren: Yeah. Yeah. I said I'm all for it. I think there's a lot of interesting devices out there. There's one called Alpha stem, which is kind of similar to the Fisher Wallace here's a few different devices I've seen at conferences that all kind of accomplish the same thing. But, the Fisher Wallace, I like it just because, again, it's pretty easy to use. There's not a lot of settings you have to navigate. You don't have to be a genius to figure out how to do it. Same thing with the Alpha stem. The office seems pretty easy. That one, you do have little clips that go on your ear lobes and you just literally turn it on. I mean, that's it. There are no settings to it. So there's some, a few easy devices out there that for people, again, if they've tried different supplements, things like Melatonin or five different herbs and if it's not really doing the job. So this may help you.
Christine: I'm over Melatonin. I'm just over it. I have an automatic I roll. It goes-
Kendra: Well, it doesn't work for everyone. That's for sure.
Dr, Darren: Well, people need to understand Melatonin's job is to get you to sleep. It's not going to keep you asleep. And for most of the people I see falling asleep is generally not the bigger problem. The bigger problem is they wake multiple times in the night. So Melatonin is not gonna do much for that anyway. So again, I like something like the Fisher Wallace, just that I think has a better chance of getting to that deeper restorative sleep. And again, that's where all that good tissue repairs going to happen.
Christine: Totally amazing. I'm so grateful that we had you on the podcast because it's been like a such a goldmine of knowledge, and the questions that can run I had and just like such good advice. So thank you so much.
Dr, Darren: That was my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Christine: Kendra, do you have a last minute question?
Kendra: where you're like I just want to know where we can find out more about you. What's the name of your book and how can people connect with you online?
Dr, Darren: Sure. So the book is called the Lyme solution and that's available through Amazon or any major book retailer and they can find me online at Darren Ingles, nd.com. It's d a r i n i n g e l s. N D.com and we'd love for people to sign up for our newsletter. We've got a lot of great information about Lyme disease and other health related things and all of our social media tags are at Darren ingles nd, so you can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and so forth.
Christine: Awesome. I love it and it's so cool that you on social media so much. We do it again.
Dr, Darren: Well, we'll try.
Christine: That's another episode where we're going to talk about that.
Kendra: But social media, we need to talk about it. Yes.
Christine: All right but I think this was a pretty amazing, fantastic episode. If you guys out there thinks so too. And if you learned at least one new thing, which is not difficult in this one, then please head over to iTunes and leave us a five star review telling us how awesome we are, and will appreciate it and read it out loud, of course, for everyone to hear. So I think that's it for the episode today. So make sure that you switch on again in two weeks when we have our brand new spanking episode coming out. And Yeah, hope you have a wonderful day. Bye.
This is the first Biz Bomb episode, where we bring you HUGE business tips and tools that will blow your mind! Today Christine talks about her favorite app tool - Evernote, a great tool to organize your notes. It's great not just for taking notes during conferences, or making your grocery lists but can also be used with your clients during sessions.
You can use Evernote on your laptop, desktop, phone, iPad..basically anything that you typically do your work on. But it's great because you could take notes in Evernote during one of your client sessions from your desktop, and still access them from the Evernote app on your phone or iPad to review later! No more writing memo's on your hand and hope they don't wash off (and don't get us started on the toxins that get into your body when you write on your hand!)
Evernote also organizes your notes for you by looking for similarities in your documents either by documents with similar titles or you can organize yourself by color coding or adding tags to your notes.
In addition to making your own notes through the app, you can also scan other documents and save them to Evernote so they are all in one place! So let's say your client has completed their intake form - you can scan it using the Scannable app, save it to Evernote and then create another document to take your clients notes in! And they are all in the same place and organized.
Tools discussed in this episode:
All right, everyone. And welcome to the Biz Bomb of today. And this is the first time I'm actually doing this, so basically the purpose of this is really to help you with day-to-day tools that I use in my business, just as Kendra does. And, hopefully together, with our brains combined, we will blow yours with our biz knowledge, and just kind of tips and tricks that we use.
So my Biz Bomb tip today is a program that maybe some of you know, maybe some of you don't, or a lot of you know, it's Evernote. I love Evernote. It's just a fantastic little thing. It's an app that you can use on your desktop, that you can use on your phone, on your iPad, and I use it for everything. And the way that it compares to Notes for example is that I describe it as a shoebox, and I'm more of a shoebox kind of person, where you dump everything, you know, you have this shoebox and you know, "This is the shoebox with all my receipts. This is the shoebox with all my invoices. This is the shoebox with my manuals, and so forth," or you just have one big shoebox.
And the reason why I like it is that the search function is phenomenal. I use it all of the time. And you can get as vague and as geeky with it as you want. So I don't tag a lot in it, I literally just do ... you have a to-do thing, a title, I try to make that as descriptive, so I'm telling myself, "Okay, what I'm going to use, what would I search for," I put that in the title, and there you go.
The thing is, it's actually, Evernote is going to look for things that refer to each other, so it's actually going to suggest to you other notes that might be the same topic, which is fantastic. And you can get as geeky with it as you want. So you can tag it, you can create different notebooks, you can color code it, you can also use speech, voice memos. And I just adore it.
So I use Evernote all the time on all my devices, and it's fantastic. I use it, as well as just doing my grocery list, just as if I'm at a conference and I'm taking notes. And also, with the iPad and my Apple Pen, I use it when I have preliminary sessions with clients who come to my office. So we sit down, and I take their first intake where I just talk to them and where they tell me that I think are important, I just jot it down on my iPad in Evernote. So I have a client notebook, and then I have little notebooks, and they're for the different potential clients that I work it. And so I just note down the notes in there. So it's fantastic.
The other thing that goes with it that I highly, highly, highly recommend is the note that scans. So I think it's called Scannable, and you take a picture of a document and you can choose to save it as a PDF or a JPEG, and what it does, it's much more than a picture, it literally scans it. So you have crystal clear lettering, it looks exactly like a document, it's fantastic. And then you can just say, "Save to Evernote," which means that it's accessible on all of your devices. So I've done this so many times that, in a pinch, I just took a document, took the picture with the app, it scanned it, I had it in my Dropbox straight away, because I go to Evernote, then I save it to my Dropbox, and I could sign it. So I merge different apps that I'm going to talk about later in the following episodes. But get that app that goes with it.
So that's my tip for today. I hope you have a wonderful rest of the week, and I'll talk to you soon.
Are you a practitioner that primarily focuses on in-person sessions but looking to take your practice online? Whether you’re looking to move entirely online, or have both a brick and mortar and online business, your online presence is absolutely essential. If your practice is perceived as a brick and mortar, how do you take that perception and make people think of looking for you in an online setting? It’s a tough question for many! The quick answer - create content, bring a lot to the table and bring a different skillset that can scale online. That’s where Dr. Tim Jackson comes in.
Dr. Tim Jackson, DPT received his undergraduate degree in Health science and chemistry from Wake Forest University in 2003. He completed his Doctorate in Physical Therapy (DPT) from the Medical University of SC in 2009.
Realizing that manual therapy and orthopedic care helped only some of his patients, he began studying functional and environmental medicine, as well as digestive health, in an effort to help others achieve wellness. Dr. Tim is educated in nutritional biochemistry, digestive health and its systemic effects, as well as functional endocrinology. He recently completed the Spine portion of the Active Release Technique methodology, a system that addresses musculoskeletal trigger points and helps to expedite the healing process. Currently, Dr. Tim is working on his Functional Diagnostic Nutritionist certification.
Tools discussed in this episode:
Functional Diagnostic Nutrition Course
Grab our Ultimate Health Coaching Tool Kit complete with our top picks for platforms plus our sample contract and intake form: http://360healthbizpodcast.com
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Christine: Hello again and welcome to this new episode of The 360 Health Biz Podcast, and I'm super-excited, it's beautiful weather outside, we're in April, winter is behind us I hope. And with me is my wonderful, beautiful, totally kick-ass, badass Kendra Perry, co-host.
Kendra Perry: Hello.
Christine: The co-hostest with the mostest, and we have a super-exciting guest today, friend of mine, huge, long conversations with about all kinds of things, Dr. Tim Jackson, so I'm very, very excited to talk about how to take your offline practice to online, kind of things that you encounter, so this is especially interesting for those of you who will have a traditional brick and mortar business and who want to evolve into the online space, which we love at this podcast.
Christine: Now, don't forget, as always you will be able to follow on our blog and you will also find us on YouTube, you will find us obviously on Audio, but you can also watch us on our YouTube channel, so that's always fun to do. Then we are super-excited because as you know, each time when you learn something exciting I'll ask you to please, please, please leave us a five star review on iTunes and someone did that, not today actually, we apologize in advance because we kind of didn't followup and forgot to check.
Kendra Perry: Get up.
Kendra Perry: I've been checking but yeah, iTunes doesn't really bring everything into one so they're kind of everywhere so we missed this one. This is actually from a couple of months ago, so Cathy Morris, we love you. We are sorry we have not read your review until now but we really appreciate it. She left us a short and sweet [crosstalk 00:01:39] that says, "These ladies are wonderful, true, heartfelt educators. They really want to help with their heath and plans. I love listening to them. Thank you Cathy for that review that you left two months ago, we really appreciate it. It's warming our heart now.
Christine: We do, we do, we totally do. Thank you so, so much. And if you want to receive as much love from us as we just sent over to Cathy, hope you feel all warm and tingly, then please go and head over to iTunes right now and leave us a review. So hit pause, leave us a review, and we'll be making sure to give you a shout out next episode.
Kendra Perry: Sooner than two months from now.
Christine: It's so typical of us to miss that kind of stuff, you know how it is.
Kendra Perry: We're disorganized gong shows, so-
Christine: No real surprise there, right? Unless you send us money. We will take that gladly, immediately-
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and then it'll be on there in [crosstalk 00:02:30]-
Christine: We have a Patreon page, by the way. Go to our website 360healthbizpodcast.com and you can donate to support our cause. All right, so without further ado, Dr. Tim Jackson, super-excited to have you here. You have a massively impressive biography with all kinds of degrees and all kinds of diplomas and education, so it's basically you just read it and you're like, "Oh my God, your brain must be huge," so in a nutshell, who are you, what do you do?
Dr. Tim Jackson: My doctorate's in physical therapy and rehabilitation, my undergrad is in health science and chemistry. I started out doing orthopedic rehabilitation and sports medicine, and I kind of knew all along that I wanted to incorporate functional medicine aspects into it, just because a lot of times your musculoskeletal pain, if it's not 100% caused by internal issues it's 80% caused by internal issues, so I can adjust your spine and mobilize your elbow, but why are those things inflamed? I figured out that I was pretty good at functional medicine and there weren't many people doing it, I was doing it before there was really a name for it and there were a ton of people doing orthopedics.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so I work with people and I'm working on narrowing down my ideal client avatar, but I have everyone from professional athletes to kids on the autism spectrum. A lot of people will say, "How can those two populations have anything in common?" Mitochondrial dysfunction, gut issues, so there's actually a lot they have in common, and so I work with clients from all over the world as part of my Heal Your Body Program, working in layers versus one-time consults.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I also do practice consulting with traditional medical clinics that are looking to incorporate functional medicine, IV nutrition, functional lab testing, supplementation and nutritional consultation.
Kendra Perry: Man, how do you get it all done? It sounds like a ton of things, wearing tons of hat.
Christine: I'm just exhausted listening to that.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I sleep like a boss, that's how.
Christine: Secret. If you don't, get in touch with me.
Kendra Perry: Shameless plug.
Christine: Totally. All right, so I think it's super-interesting because I'm pretty sure we have ... I find that so many people who work with physical therapy who start to shift into the functional medical corner, and I do think that you just told us that you work with people all over the world. I guess it just is like a change of thinking that you actually do that, because I guess when you start out you do have the typical idea of a brick and mortar business, where people come see you and, as you said, you kind of ... I don't know what you do, you press and prod and I don't know what else you do.
Kendra Perry: Poke.
Christine: In order to get them back into shape, so I can imagine that people will say, "Okay, so how is this dude going to help me with his webcam, you know?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Sure, I mean it's the same sort of principle as osteopathic medicine chiropractic. There are plenty in those professions that don't do manual therapy or hands-on, so I get a lot of emails with people asking, "Oh, can I come to you in person?" You can, it's not really going to change what we do. You still need a local primary care physician who can prescribe medication if needed, and who can you see for emergency issues, and physical exams and things of that nature.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I work more on looking at biochemical and biophysical imbalances and finding those pathways that are congested or block and optimizing them. And so it doesn't really matter where you are, to a certain extent lab testing is different in different parts of the world. But for example, in Canada, good luck getting a Reverse T3 tested, it's not going to happen.
Kendra Perry: I can get it done. I can get it done. I have a great naturopath, but yeah, it's a pain in the ass. They send it away and then you wait forever, and then they always forget it and you're like, "I paid for this. I paid for this. Give it to me." [inaudible 00:07:05]
Dr. Tim Jackson: Exactly. Yeah, I mean a lot of it I've kind of moved since when I started practicing I mean I was definitely more heavily focused on the supplementation. Of course, I still use supplements but I try to give people the best return on their investment, things like far infrared sauna, red light therapy, my molecular hydrogen machine over here. Those are things that are going to continue to work for you month after month without having to purchase a new one.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and so how do you use near infrared and far infrared sauna therapies? I'm so obsessed with light therapy. I've got my Joovv light, I've got my sunlight and sauna, are you using that primarily for detox and mitochondrial function?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, so I have the REDjuvenator, the ... Well, we could talk about that another time, but I wouldn't repurchase it, but it has red and near-fared. I use it for collagen production, [inaudible 00:08:08] 21, and-
Kendra Perry: He looks 21. Get on YouTube and watch the video so you can check him out.
Christine: Yeah, it's actually very true. I might have to get that machine, even if it's not working for you totally, but just does half I'm in, sign me up.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Hey, it's working for me. Have you seen this face?
Christine: Oh yeah.
Kendra Perry: He's glowing.
Christine: He's absolutely. I'm sure he doesn't have the green filter on like we do, you know?
Kendra Perry: We're cheating.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I don't even know how to do that, so no, I don't have that on. But I use the red light therapy mostly for mitochondrial boosting, collagen production is kind of a side benefit, but a lot of the products out there don't have the power output that they should to achieve a therapeutic affect. But it's one of those things that you can incorporate, your whole family can use. You do have to be careful with, and I know we don't want to get too off-topic, but in people who are really toxic even five minutes of stimulating the mitochondria any time you increase cellular energy production you're going to turn on a lot of things that were turned off. And so you just have to be careful of that.
Christine: Do you sometimes have clients ... How do you do this exactly? Do they have to see you are you going to tell a client, "Look, I do recommend that you do this," and then you tell them how to do it? Or how does that work?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, I mean, it's all part of a comprehensive program and I take into their account their budget and they're already doing. Some people who've come to me are already doing red light therapy and a lot of other biohacks. Other times I may recommend two supplements, gluten-free diet and far infrared sauna. Because I could recommend a zillion things, but it's just going to overwhelm them and you have to kind of meet people where they are and let them experience some success and get that momentum going. If you do that, then they'll buy-in, and I've found that if you can do something right off the bat that really makes them feel it, then they'll buy-in to everything else.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Someone told me once, "Give them a little bit of what they want and a lot of what they need." They might come to me for anti-aging but I might look at chronic infection, and they don't necessarily understand the connection but I do.
Christine: Sort of what I do, the niche is sleep but it's never just sleep, it just like one of the symptoms so it's exactly what you're saying, yeah.
Kendra Perry: It's all connected and I think people have a hard time wrapping their head around that because we've been raised in this sort of compartmentalized medical system, and no matter how often or how much I try to explain it to certain people they still don't get it, so you just exactly have to give them what they want, and then they're like, "Oh, this is great. I want to take things to the next level." Right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.
Kendra Perry: And so you've obviously been around for a very long time. You were with functional medicine before it was called functional medicine, probably dates you a little bit to the audience, but what did that transition look like when you were seeing people in clinic, in office when you realized you could utilize the Internet to reach more people around the world?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. I mean, I had been on the different forums and before Facebook and social media was popular, the health and medical forums were really popular and so I was on those back in the day, but I always realized that there were people locally who would go pay cash to see someone else versus coming to our clinic and using their insurance. So I think the dilemma is people want to transition into the online space but they don't want to up their game. You can't just transition and not have it on advanced skillset or something unique that you bring to the table.
Christine: That's a good point, yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, when you're transitioning or when I was transitioning, I just tried to put out good information and I definitely didn't know anything about SEO or any of that, and it just got shared really. I have medical doctors now that refer to me, other clinicians, acupuncturists, et cetera, but I think even if you're going to have a brick and mortar practice you still need to have a good online presence.
Dr. Tim Jackson: For example, when I lived in Atlanta the owned of the clinic where I worked part-time, he didn't understand that you can't just put up a sign and expect people to show up. I mean, there's a million functional medicine clinics in Atlanta and if someone googles, "Relevant functional medicine terms," you want to be at the very top. And so I think having an online presence is important, whether you're all virtual or you're split or all brick and mortar.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I mean it's a really good point. Nothing drives me more crazy then when I'm trying to find more information about a business or a menu and they don't have a website or a Facebook page that they update, and I'm just like, "How?" I don't understand. How do you not have any sort of online, even if you're a local business, right? People traveling to the area, people ... For me, if it's not convenient, I'm out. Gone.
Christine: Me too. If it takes me more than two seconds to have a nice mobile-friendly page I'm out, and it's so annoying. Because okay, I'm just in the process of getting a kitten so I'm Googling breeders. You wouldn't believe how many of them have like wicks pages from 1995 or something like that. It's not mobile-friendly, you need to zoom into everything and press buttons and things, and I'm just like, "No, no, no, no, no." I would love to actually write them emails and say, "Look, I'm going to do your website for free because this is too frustrating."
Kendra Perry: And your next career is building cat websites.
Christine: Totally, there's a huge market there, I think.
Kendra Perry: I think there is.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, and they're also seeing my friend who is a psychiatrist.
Christine: See? There we go, mixed business. But I find we are all the same kind of age, we're actually all 56, we just look amazing to get because we have saunas and stuff. I think we are actually really lucky because we are belonging to the millennium breed, but we're still a generation ... One of millennium parts we remember the analog world but also the digital, so I think it really helps because if we have people, like the person who unfortunately was inflexible who ran the clinic that you worked at who were just totally analog, they really have a hard time understanding the digital. I think our generation is actually super-lucky because we understand how they think, and yet we grew up figuring all this crap out because it was basic.
Christine: I remember the first chatroom I was in was actually an ISC chatroom where you had to program everything, it was basically like a dot kind of an [inaudible 00:15:30] something. I didn't know it was that at the time, with my 14 years. But we had to figure it all out, so I think that makes us really techy in a way, if you're interested. You also have people of our generations who are not, but at the same time we really do get the analog thinking as well.
Christine: I find that that is really a gift in a way, because we kind of also know what other people are looking for. So some people still just look for signs, but it's translating that into Google as in saying, "Look, you are actually on a street. You Google ranking is the biggest billboard in town, in a way, so if you're listening and you are a couple of generation ahead of us and you just don't dig this digital stuff, really one of my pieces of advice would be just open your mind and you have to then hire someone who does it for you.
Christine: Because I think there is absolutely no way that you can get served the most people possible if you don't have an online presence, even if you're not ready to take your complete business online. But if you do have a business that people perceive as being a brick and mortar business, so for example I perceive someone who does osteopathy physical therapy to be a hands-on business. How do you take that perception for people even to think about looking for that online, because I would never consider it an online business? How do you do that for people to actually understand that they can work with that online?
Christine: You talked a little bit about creating content, so I would be interested to know a little bit about how that opened doors for people worldwide to find you and to actually even get the idea to hire someone in that area of expertise online, versus going and looking for a brick and mortar close by.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, I think, I mean all the content that I've produced has been functional medicine. None of it has been orthopedic related. It's just like with osteopaths or chiropractors who don't adjust or they just do nutritional consultations, et cetera. If someone wants manual therapy or an adjustment, et cetera, of course they need to see someone in person, but I just made sure that everything I talked about was functional medicine related, neuro immune related, gut health, hormones, et cetera and so no one ever really perceived me as this orthopedic manual therapy guy.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, I've just focused on putting out content about mitochondria and all those other topics in functional medicine and red light therapy, and so when you put that out there and hope that people find you, and yeah.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, it seems like if you do do manual therapy of some sort and you want to go online, I guess it depends ... Like you said, you need to bring a lot to the table or you need to have a different skillset. Where I live there's a massage therapy school, and so there's a ton of massage therapists in my town and they're always three years in they're stoked on it, and three years in they're just like, "I can't scale up. I don't know how to scale up my business," because they can only do so many massages, right, in a day or they burn out.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.
Kendra Perry: And so I've been thinking a lot about them and I'm like, "You need some sort of subset of skills that you could bring online, or something that you can teach to bring online or otherwise, yeah, if you just do physical therapy you really can only hit so high and they're you're stuck."
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Yeah, I mean it's just like with chiropractors adjusting people. If that's all you do, I mean it's going to wear on your body a lot and there's reason why you don't see very many old doctors or physiotherapy or doctors of chiropractic, and it is very energy intensive, I mean especially if you want to get good results to do soft tissue release, manipulation, that sort of thing. I mean, I would often break out in a sweat just working on a patient.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so that kind of stuff if people want a physical examination or a movement examination, I mean I can do that virtually and look at what reflexes are integrated or not and how their movement patterns are, and a lot of times it involves resolving inflammation and other functional medicine root cause stuff.
Christine: Yeah. If you had to do it again would you start out with physical therapy again or would you say, "Hell no, I would just go straight into functional medicine?"
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, I mean that's the thing. People always ask me about going to school for functional medicine and there is no school for functional medicine. I don't care what people say, I'm sure I'll piss a lot of people off but I do that anyways. Naturopaths did not-
Christine: Welcome to the club, dude. [crosstalk 00:20:49]
Dr. Tim Jackson: Naturopaths did not own functional medicine, okay? Let's get that out there. The Institute of Functional Medicine doesn't own functional medicine, and so someone told me, "Just buy a ticket to play the game." I'd probably just get my FDN, honestly. I mean, why go to school for eight years? I mean, you know?
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I think that's maybe the post that we reconnected on Facebook on, it was someone who was posting about the University of Functional Medicine and you said something about, you're like, "Why waste $30 grand when you could just take one of Bryan Walsh's course and learn so much more?" And I think I was like, "Hell, yeah," or something like that and that's kind of where I chimed in. But yeah, it's so true. I see a lot of people spending so much money on traditional education in [inaudible 00:21:34] functional medicine, but in the end, I mean the great thing about ...
Kendra Perry: You mentioned the FDN course. Both me and Christine have done that course and then we love it because it gives us the ability to order the labs and actually get in the game. But a lot of people who've done some of this more expensive functional medicine education, if they're on license they still can't order labs, so what's the point?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, right. Exactly. And, I mean ultimately the stuff that you learn, the most important stuff I've learned has been me kind of piecing together things. Someone might hear me on a podcast or read an article, but they don't necessarily appreciate that it took five years to put all that together, it didn't just show up.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it so true. It's so complex and everyone's like, "Oh, what's your education?" I'm like, "Sure, I've got all these letters beside my name but most of them don't mean anything and haven't contributed at all to my skillset, whatsoever." And a lot of what we do is just working clinically, working with clients, speaking with other practitioners, spending our extra time in the deep dark corners of Club Med and looking at shit, right? People don't get that. You're like, "Can I put hours of looking at shit beside my name?"
Dr. Tim Jackson: Actually I just saw a new ... she calls herself a nutritionist website, and under her credentials she had a list of the articles she had read, and I'm like, "There's not enough bandwidth for the number of articles that I've read."
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah, I probably don't even remember all of them, that's true. That's true.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: I find the little people ... yeah, go ahead.
Dr. Tim Jackson: No, I mean I just think it's silly that people look for certain letters to mean certain things, like they think, "Oh, if you're an optometrist then you can't do functional medicine," or, "If you're a dentist you can't do functional medicine." Why not?
Christine: Yeah, totally. And I find that's the first question I will usually get when I do talks or anything, it's like so people are looking at me, they're like, "So are you a doctor then?" You know? Or they're like that's the first question I always get, "So do you have a medical license?" Or, "Are you a doctor then?" And it's like, "No, but I have doctors sending me a lot of clients because they're just stuck at a certain point and they know that I get results. I work completely differently."
Christine: But it used to bother me, it used to really piss me off, like if you don't have the MD or the doctor in front of your name it's like okay, there's no cred in a way. I think it is shifting because a lot of people just know just through their own experience that there's a lot of boundaries in the traditional MD world and that it's just more for emergency cases. If you are an emergency, obviously it's the best thing that happened to us but, if not, very often everything is fine even though you feel like shit.
Christine: I found that is still something that people need to get used to, that you don't necessarily have to be an MD in order to be great at functional medicine.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, when people ask- Sorry, go ahead.
Kendra Perry: Go ahead. You go.
Dr. Tim Jackson: When people ask me if I'm an MD I say, "No, I'm your doctor's doctor," which in a lot of cases is true. Which in a lot of cases I true. I mean, I have probably five or six MDs now as clients, so that's my response.
Christine: That's [crosstalk 00:25:06].
Kendra Perry: Totally. And I've spent a bunch of time training licensed practitioners, I do a big focus on hair mineral analysis and just ran a course. I had a couple of doctors in there, a couple of naturopaths, a couple of dietitians and then a bunch of health coaches. But yeah, it's like I think that barrier with the letters is breaking down a little bit. I feel like people are caring less and less, but I think it also when you're starting out, when you're unlicensed people feel really maybe inferior or they feel like they need to keep upgrading their education rather than just getting out there, and getting clients and doing the work. Because that's really what makes you a good practitioner. It's not the education or the letters, it's having clinical experience and actually working with the people.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Absolutely. Definitely. Well said.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: Tell us bit about with all the experience that you had working with clients online all over the place, what would be your top three things that you see over and over again? And what are some of the things that were maybe surprising after you started to transition from what you started out of, more in physical therapy to functional medicine? What are the three things that stuck in your head where you were like, "I wouldn't have thought this, but I see this over and over and over again."
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, I shouldn't say this surprised me, but I was always fascinated with the immune system and chronic infections, and even with orthopedic type stuff, people with bilateral knee pain they've found mycoplasma antigen antibody complexes in the synovial fluid in the joint. Yeah, I can mobilize your knee and release the soft tissues that connect into the meniscus, but it's really an inflammatory immune issue, and that really applies to all orthopedic situations. But whether people know it or now, and everyone's worried about getting the flu and an acute infection, when the reality is the stealth chronic infections that hang around and get into the brain, and the nervous system, the heart, the blood vessels, the liver, those are what you should be concerned about because they create a constant inflammatory cascade that's going to manifest differently in everyone.
Dr. Tim Jackson: The three of us may all get infected with the same pathogen, Kendra may have headaches, you may have sleep issues, and I'm just making funny of you to the sleep, and you may have-
Christine: I thought you'd say diarrhea, but it's fine. I prefer the sleep issue.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yes, diarrhea-
Christine: Loose poop.
Dr. Tim Jackson: ... we'll go with that. And I may have an elevated heart rate, so I would say that chronic infections would be number one. That's something that most people are dealing with whether they realize it or not, and we have a world of underperforming people, and a lot of times they kind of chalk it up to, "Oh, I'm just not smart," or, "I'm just not this or that," and-
Christine: Just getting old.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, a lot of being controlled by things that they've just never been taught to look at or look for. I would say the chronic infections, of course the mitochondrial issues. If you can boost the mitochondria everything works better, and then the circadian rhythm and environmental health. I kind of group indoor air quality, I deal a lot with mold toxicity, and that directly drops blood flow to the frontal lobe in the brain in addition to impacting various aspects of your immune system.
Dr. Tim Jackson: The chronic infection, the mitochondria, because when people hear mitochondria they think energy, they think, "Oh, go work out," but they don't realize that everything, like the thoughts that I'm thinking right now, that requires energy production, my heart beating requires energy production, and so everything in your body will suffer when energy production suffers.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I tell people at the end of the day we'll do functional lab testing, but the two best tests are what's your body temperature and what's your sex drive?
Kendra Perry: Very cool.
Dr. Tim Jackson: You know? Because nature never wants to reproduce anything that's weaker, it only wants to reproduce things that are stronger and have more vitality. And so if you have low libido, when people and ... I don't want to call anyone out, but these fertility clinics popping up everywhere when you just bypassed that process, you're asking for trouble.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I totally agree. I see that all the time. I work with women and I see just so many women going through yeah, all the crazy fertility treatments. They haven't been able, they've been trying for 10 years and it's just like they're doing in vitro, they're doing the fertility drugs, and they're just forcing these babies out of the body that doesn't actually want them to have a baby because they're not quite healthy enough. I think that's a big think.
Kendra Perry: I mean, it's a tough topic because women, they really want it, it's a very emotional thing. It's a tough one. It's hard to convince women sometimes, especially when they're older, when they're in their later 30s early 40s and they feel like they're running out of time to just focus on health first and not do the IVF or do the crazy fertility hormones that just make you dump eggs like a motherfucker.
Christine: Yeah, nuts. And nobody asks you-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, I get-
Christine: ... about your energy levels or anything like that. Because I've gone through, not all the way, but the beginning stages of those treatments when we tried to have a second one, thank God we didn't, but nobody asks you these questions, like no one. It's crazy to me but it doesn't matter. It's really about okay, we're still very lucky in Luxembourg because our insurance actually covers everything, our national health insurance, so it's still different but it's still, "Okay, you have this problem, hence we're going to do this process." Nobody talks to you about diet, nobody talks to you about your energy levels, nobody talks to you about anything that might have to do that your natural body is just not up to it, because producing a little human is pretty complex, you know?
Kendra Perry: It's a big fucking deal.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Yeah, and to piggyback off what Kendra said, I get a fair number of emails from women who are in their late 30s, early 40s, and they're like, "Dr. Tim, I've got to get pregnant yesterday," and I'm like, "Well, just pump the brakes for a minute and give me six months and I promise you it will pay off a lot in the long-term, verus trying to fix stuff after the fact."
Kendra Perry: Yeah, yeah. And I'm always amazed, I've worked with people who they're so burnt out, they're so exhausted, they have no energy, they don't sleep well, they're literally burnt out on the floor and they're like, "I want to have a baby." I'm like, "That is crazy. How? How are you going to do that and how are you going to raise a child when you're that fucking tired?" It's just [crosstalk 00:32:15]-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, yeah. I agree with you 100%. It's kind of like people that have two kids and they can't parent them well, so let's have a third.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I know. Eww.
Christine: Thank God we're here tooting our horn. No, but it's very true. I mean, there's such a shift in paradigm having this information out, and I think part of it is because we do need to put that information out in order to be found and in order to run our businesses. On the one hand, yes, it's to the good for the people because we want them to learn more. On the other hand, it's just quite for us being in business it's important too, so it's really this two-way street but it's a win-win situation in the end, I reckon.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, absolutely. Yeah, I mean I'm trying to become a jetsetter like you and just fly all over the place and live in luxurious resorts.
Christine: October, Bali people, 2019. Check it out. Self-promo, I'm sorry. I cannot help it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, you're on fire today. You're just like, "I'm going to promote myself all episode long."
Christine: There's so many opportunities. What am I supposed to do?
Kendra Perry: You got to take it. You got to take it where you can get it.
Christine: Yeah. No, but I mean, it's what an online business is in the end. I think you have to give yourself a little bit of a nudge in order to be visible, it's not easy for everyone, and I think you have to do it in the way that suits you. Kendra and I, we obviously love the camera and we're like, "Hi," it's grim stories and all kind of witches talk, but other people are not. I think, for those, it's really a lot better that you create written content, and I think that's what you do mainly too, right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: What kind of content, sorry?
Christine: Written content.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, written. Yeah. I mean, it's not that I don't like the camera. I do a ton of podcasts and summit interviews, I just hadn't gotten my lazy butt around to filming myself yet. Maybe I can talk to you guys off-air about what camera I need. But yeah, I want it to make me even younger and even more muscular, so-
Kendra Perry: We just need to show you how to use the zoom filter. Really, without the zoom filter, it is the morning, I just rolled out of bed, first coffee, I'm haggard, but the zoom filter it cleans me right up.
Christine: [crosstalk 00:34:45]. No, I mean [inaudible 00:34:48].
Dr. Tim Jackson: You look like you're in a studio right now Christine. Are you in some kind of-
Christine: Yeah, I have my studio set up. I was recording. What was I recording? Oh, my introduction to the website. I redid that, so yeah. I've been doing some video, more pro stuff, but it didn't turn out the way I wanted to. I may have to do it again. Yeah, sometimes I ... I love this stuff, I love [inaudible 00:35:10], I love ... I spend shitloads of money on that stuff, but I think it's to each their own, right? But-
Dr. Tim Jackson: I, personally, would rather have an aneurysm than deal with that stuff.
Kendra Perry: See? Oh my God. Really?
Christine: It's not [crosstalk 00:35:26]-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Biochemistry, that doesn't stress me out. Pathophysiology, that doesn't stress me out. You start talking about metatags and H1, H2, and my HPA is just choo, choo, choo.
Kendra Perry: Just gone.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, I have zero patience for that.
Christine: I do have a question though, because you just mentioned that you do lots of summits and lots of podcasts, so let's talk a little bit about that. Do you think this has helped your mastery with your business? Is this ... Because I know it's such a trend and so many people have done it, especially you people listening to this, it's about how can you make your coaching business or health practice more successful. I think you have these huge companies like what are they called? Health Talks Online-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.
Christine: ... and all these huge, huge, huge summit and I had my own summit a couple of years ago and you were actually an expert on that, and my list grew hugely, my email list, but I lost pretty much all of those people again, so as soon as I pitched the something. I'm wondering, has it been successful for you?
Dr. Tim Jackson: I think it has. People end up following my work and reading my articles. They may overtime become clients immediately, it may be two years down the road but just to give you an example. I was a coffee shop in Sedona, Arizona, and two separate people who didn't know each other came up and they were like, "Hey, weren't you on the Bulletproof Executive podcast?" And I was like, "Yeah, you watch that?"
Christine: Wow, pretty big deal.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, that's [crosstalk 00:37:03]-
Christine: I've never had that happen to me, there you go.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, that's just because you're a household name already, so ... But yeah, I mean I think it has. I haven't nurtured the opt-in email list because, again, all that stuff just stresses me out.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I don't have a [crosstalk 00:37:19].
Dr. Tim Jackson: If I can pay someone to turn on my computer I probably would. That's just the reality of it. But the summits, I've never hosted a summit. I've been on, I think, nine or 10 and I think that did help me get a fair number of clients. But, like you said, people want ... in this day and age they're spoiled in terms of content and information. The other day just to give you a quick example, I made a post that was again to you, there's probably 1% of the world that knows this and it was about THC depleting potassium. Someone responded, "Where are your citations?" And I'm thinking, "Okay, yeah. Let me just stop seeing patients and I'll be a librarian and I'll start posting those links. That's what I'll do all day."
Dr. Tim Jackson: It gets kind of ridiculous and there's so much content out there you have to just kind of be consistent with it, I guess, and consistent with your messaging, and get in front of the right people because a lot of the people that I've met that are world famous, they definitely don't know the most they're just really good at marketing.
Christine: Yeah, and I think that's an issue a little bit in our ... As you say, people are very spoiled and it is a bit of an issue because you need to market yourself in order to get ads there but, at the same time, you need to have a quality service so it is tricky, definitely.
Kendra Perry: But I think what you just said, Tim, just kind of summed up how to have a successful online business, you were like be consistent, create consistent content, and I think it was create valuable content. It was something along those lines, I just kind of brain farted on a few of those things. But yeah, I feel like people want ... They're like, "Okay, well what's the strategy? How do I make it? Tell me the sexy stuff," and it's like, "Be consistent," and everyone's like, "Uh, what?" But it's so true. You just need to be consistent. You just need to keep showing up, you need to keep spreading your message, which is actually, I think, the other thing you said there.
Kendra Perry: Keep telling your story, spreading your message, be consistent, provide valuable content and don't give up, really. That's what it comes down to, I think.
Christine: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, and if you have flaunt it. I mean, I know so many that they don't really know very much but they charge a hefty penny. So hey, if you can't beat them, join them. Maybe I'll start doing shirtless podcasts.
Christine: You'd actually have an awesome podcast. If you just recorded what you wrote, all our blog posts and everything you know, it would be an amazing podcast, actually.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Maybe I can fly to Luxembourg and do it in your studio there.
Christine: That would be totally worth it. Kendra, we need to make an episode on how to do podcasts and what kind of [crosstalk 00:40:19].
Kendra Perry: yeah, totally.
Christine: I was just thinking that. I wrote it on my notepad where I wrote, "Hire Jamie Jensen, and do a [crosstalk 00:40:28] podcast."
Kendra Perry: Yeah, well I think podcasts are a great way to get out there. And I mean, me personally, I've said this a lot, but I don't consume video content because I don't have fucking time. When I'm off my computer I'm moving around, I'm getting shit done, I'm out on my bike so I listen to an obscene amount of podcasts in a day, I'm always listening to them. I don't really listen to music, so it's a good way to get in your ideal client's ears while they're in their car or on their run, or whatevs.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.
Christine: Especially if you don't like the camera it's very easy to do.
Kendra Perry: You don't have to do it like we do.
Christine: No, you can literally take your iPhone, if you have Anchor, it's an app and you can literally just hit the record button like you do on a voice memo and it really uploads it straight onto your podcasts clouds, and yet it's available on Spotify and iTunes, and you literally just take your iPhone and you speak into it whatever's in your head. It's super-easy nowadays, yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Got you. I'll have to ask you some stuff off here about that.
Christine: Yeah. All right. What else did we forget? We're super-organized, as you can see.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, in terms of people looking. Now, functional medicine's a buzzword, and it's funny you mentioned doctors of physical therapy, people don't traditionally take them as doing functional medicine, but when I went into my doctorate program it was actually harder to get into than the MD program.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, yeah. It had become very popular, but the same thing happened that happened with attorneys. They opened up a lot of new schools at once and then that diluted the pool, and so that drove salaries down. But I think having a brick and mortar if you want to incorporate functional medicine into it, hire someone to help you with the low hanging fruit, things that you can do immediately, and hire someone ... There are hormone clinics popping up all over the place and you can just do hormones. I mean, you can, but if the gut's messed up or you're extremely toxic they're not good enough to work.
Dr. Tim Jackson: That's how functional medicine kind of gets a bad name, I think, people they just see dollar signs because they know if they name their clinic so-and-so Hormone Clinic, then people are going to come. But if I were to have a brick and mortar and call it ... I would probably call it something Hormone Clinic, but then I would drop all the other stuff on it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, no it's a good point. I mean, hormones are just so trendy these days, and I mean all the women who I work with are like, "Oh, what about my hormones? What about my hormones?" I'm like, "We've been working on your hormones for a year, just not-"
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.
Kendra Perry: "We've been working on your gut, your minerals, we've been detoxing metals, we're working on your hormones we're just not giving you hormones and [crosstalk 00:43:26] them specifically, but people don't like that.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, but that would require thinking. I read a stat the other day or a few weeks ago, the average IQ is dropping seen points every four to five years.
Kendra Perry: What? Is that a lot? That seems like a lot.
Dr. Tim Jackson: That is a lot.
Christine: That's a huge point.
Dr. Tim Jackson: So in nine to 10 years that's going to be 14 points, that's a lot.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, well I think my IQ is going up seven points every year. I think I'm good.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I think my sexiness factor's going up exponentially.
Christine: [crosstalk 00:44:02].
Kendra Perry: Oh, that's so interesting. And you think that's due just to all the crazy, sick unhealthiness going on these days?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, I mean I think a lot of it is low thyroid and a lot of it is mitochondrial dysfunction, because the nervous system has the highest concentration of mitochondria, so the first system that goes offline when you have mitochondrial dysfunction is the brain.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. yeah, true. I mean, so many of my clients, yeah, they have brain fog or they just have no memory, no recollection. They just forget everything, they have brain fog, they have mental health issues, it's so common, more common than any other symptom I feel like is brain shit.
Dr. Tim Jackson: That's because you live where it snows year-round.
Kendra Perry: I do. But I love the snow. I love. I love the ... Snow sucks I you don't do anything cool in it. If you just sit around and bitch about winter and you're like, "Oh, winter sucks," then yeah, snow sucks. But if you get out you can do so many cool things in the snow it's insane. You can ski, you can snowboard, you can go sledding, there's so much fun things. Once you get into it, once you find a snow sport, you're in love.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I love snowboarding, but if you go snowboarding anywhere around here it's like falling on cement.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, well you've got to come to British Columbia and ski some real BC powder, that is a game changer, that is orgasmic, my friend.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, then I'll have to look that up.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, it's messed up.
Christine: Now you know my michochondria going-
Kendra Perry: Michochondria, good one.
Christine: Oh God, mitochondria, I cannot ... my brain. I think I have just dropped 12%.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Did you just combine German and English and another language?
Christine: It's my brain fog. I had a rough week and people.
Kendra Perry: All right, well, do we have anything else to cover today? We've covered a lot of random topics, which is fun. I like these episodes where we go where things take us, right?
Christine: Exactly, and I think there was super-helpful things there, and I just got a ton of ideas what we can add to our website.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Don't stress me out, my heart rate's going up.
Kendra Perry: Just can't handle the check.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I can't, I can't.
Christine: Oh good, we're such geeky people, I love it.
Kendra Perry: I know, I love the [crosstalk 00:46:23]-
Christine: All right, I think this has been awesome. People out there from our random train of thought episode, which still has been amazing, let us know what was the most interesting, random, surprising, whatever thing. Let us know why you are writing your five star iTunes review, and we will love you forever.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and before you shut down this podcast just take a screenshot, share it to your Instagram stories, tag 360HealthBizPodcast, and we will share it to ours, because we love IG stories. If you love them, then lets do it together.
Christine: Mention us. That's just a little tidbit, like you need to use the mention kind of icon, not just the app symbol but he actual mention because then we can do it. Otherwise, it's more difficult.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, totally, so there you go. All right guys, well thanks so much.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Whatever they just said.
Kendra Perry: He's like, "I don't know, what's Instagram story?"
Dr. Tim Jackson: Heart rate, heart rate.
Kendra Perry: Oh my God.
Dr. Tim Jackson: With social media I have an idea.
Kendra Perry: We're going to have to talk off-air, Tim.
Christine: Yeah, I'm absolutely ... Kendra, I would agree. Tim, we need to talk.
Kendra Perry: Well, thanks so much guys and thank you, Tim, so much for being here with us. This was awesome. It was super-fun to hang out and talk about health and business and all that nerdy shit. We love you guys and, as always, we will be back in two weeks time with another fantastic episode. Bye guys.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Thanks for having me.
Chronic Fatigue is a common issue we see in many of our clients. And how could it not be? As Dr. Evan Hirsch describes it, there are 15 common causes to chronic fatigue, all of which can be categorized into two groups – deficiencies and toxicities. Deficiencies can be hormonal, nutrient, lifestyle and even sleep related. Toxicities include the more well known toxicities like heavy metals and mold but even other toxicities like negative emotions and electro-magnetic fields.
But when working with chronic fatigue, where do you start? And what is the difference between chronic fatigue and chronic fatigue syndrome? In this episode, Dr. Hirsch describes the differences, how he determined protocols for both and solidified the fact that you can REVERSE both chronic fatigue and chronic fatigue syndrome.
On top of that we discuss a big contributor to chronic fatigue…MOLD! Mold is a growing concern (see what we did there?!) for chronic fatigue along with many other health concerns. Did you know that 50% of the buildings in North America have mold? And it’s not just the old historical buildings. New builds are seeing mold growing before home buyers even move in.
Tune in to learn about chronic fatigue – the causes and ways to treat it.
Dr. Evan Hirsch suffered with fatigue for 5 years before he achieved resolution using the Fix Your Fatigue Program that he pioneered in his medical practice. Through his best selling book, free Facebook group, group and 1-on-1 coaching, he has helped thousands of people across the nation optimize their energy and he is on a mission to help 1 million more. He is board certified in family medicine and integrative medicine and when he’s not at the office, you can find him singing musicals, dancing and playing basketball with his family.
Get Dr. Evan Hirsch's FREE download of Fix Your Fatigue here
Connect with Dr. Evan Hirsch:
Facebook Group: fbgroup.fixyourfatigue.org
Grab our Ultimate Health Coaching Tool Kit complete with our top picks for platforms plus our sample contract and intake form: http://360healthbizpodcast.com
Like this episode? Take a screenshot and share it to your Instagram stories and we will share it to ours!
Christine: Hello everyone, and welcome to this new episode of the 360 Health Biz podcast for a new amazing episode and I'm so excited. So with me today are two amazing people, I had a lot of fun with on different occasions, but both times in San Diego. And this sounds a little bit lonely. [crosstalk 00:00:25]
Christine: One of them is obviously my wonderful cohost Kendra Perry. And then we also have Dr. Evan Hirsch who is such a great friend of me and we boogied over at Mindshare Conference night and it was so funny because I sat next to him and I had no idea that it was him, actually. I really didn't recognize him for a second. And he just smiled and it was like, "Hi! Hi, creepy dude." It was the guy from [crosstalk 00:00:51].
Christine: You know it's like this Superman movie, you know without your glasses and put your glasses on, now I get it. I kind of get it now. So anyway, he's super wise, I had the honor of interviewing him for a summit that I did two years ago, and so we're going to talk about chronic fatigue which I think for us practitioners, really important to understand, 'cause it's more difficult or, not more difficult, but more complex than we might think.
Christine: To celebrate though, we have a review, thank you, and Kendra is going to take it away and share that with you and say thank you so much, and then we're going to introduce Evan more formally and then we're off to the races.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. So we have a really exciting review from Bella180. She says, "Love them," that's the title of her review, and then she says, "I love listening to them, they are fun and I feel they have a very relaxed way of getting a tonne of good and useful info. I totally feel like hanging out with them and being their friend." Someone wants to be our friend!
Christine: You are! You can hang out with us any time. [crosstalk 00:01:54] You're in the club.
Kendra Perry: Oh my god, I love it, guys. And if you guys love us and you want to support us, really the best way to do it is to leave us a five star review on iTunes 'cause it helps us get in front of more people, get out there, and it only takes two minutes, so you can just pause the podcast right now and then go over and do that thing on iTunes. Go give us a five star review. Thank you! All right, so I want to reduce, introduce Dr. Evan Hirsch, I want to reduce him to a small man. We're going to introduce him. And I just want to quickly read his bio 'cause he's kind of big shit.
Kendra Perry: I was just creeping on his website before I came on and I was like, "Oh my god, he's big shit, I'm getting excited." So, Dr. Evan Hirsch suffered with his fatigue for five years before he achieved resolution with the Fix Your Fatigue program that he pioneered in his medical practice. Through his bestselling book, free Facebook group, group and one-on-one Coaching," he has helped thousands of people across the nation optimize their energy and he is on a mission to help one million more. That's amazing.
Kendra Perry: He is board certified in family medicine, integrative medicine, and when he's not in the office, you can find him singing musicals, dancing, playing basketball with his family. So tell me more about the musicals. I'm like, super intrigued.
Christine: I buy it. I saw you on stage, dude. I totally buy it.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I love musicals. I love watching them, I love singing them.
Kendra Perry: Oh my god, that's amazing.
Christine: Which one is your favorite?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: "Les Mis" is definitely my all time favorite, but it really depends on the flavor of the month. "Dear Evan Hansen" is amazing, I mean I love story that's told with music, 'cause music brings out the emotion and just like, one song brings you back to the whole story and you totally feel it all over again.
Christine: Very true, very true. So I have Evan so much and we had this discussion before because you know, you're like my bridge guy, you're one of the board certified MDs, family doctors who I not, haughty might not be the right word, but it actually is, you know? He was actually totally fine with communicating with health practitioners who might not have gone to medical school and I find that so so important that we do have that bridge.
Christine: So it's going to be super exciting because we have so many different perspectives today to talk about. But, you suffered from chronic fatigue and it would be interesting because you had all this medical background already, so what was going through your head when you were tired all the time and you didn't really have an answer?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: At that point I was already practicing functional medicine and I had come out of my residency, my wife had had fatigue three years prior and we had had a child, I finished residency, I started a practice, and then I went into fatigue, and frankly I'm not a great patient and I was just kind of pushing through and I just thought that, "This is just temporary, it's going to go away" and it didn't, and I just got worse.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And brain fog got awful, to the point where I couldn't really remember much about the person who was sitting in front of me when I was doing my one-on-one consults. Thank goodness I had an electronic medical record where I could keep all that information in there, but once they were out of that chair, I really couldn't remember much. I could be present with them, I felt like I was practicing good care, but once they were gone, yeah it was out of my brain. And then I wasn't available for my family. I would come home and I couldn't play with my daughter.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: She was like, "Daddy let's run around," I'm like, "I just need to lie down." And I felt incredibly, my buttons on guilt and shame were pushed because I couldn't help out around the home. My wife was doing everything and I couldn't do dishes, you know I just couldn't support them and I felt awful about it. So finally I started diving into it deeper, started looking at all the research, read all the books I could, and piecing together all the causes that I could find.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: 'Cause what I was realizing, and also while I was doing this you know with functional medicine lends itself to the most complicated cases, and so as I got better treating other people and I was like, "Oh, I'm having success with this, I really need to start practicing this on myself," but I found that as they were getting better that it was really all about addressing all of the causes, and so that's my huge takeaway for people is that a lot of the times people are looking for the best treatment and I find that it's not the treatment, that it's all about the causes, because if you find the causes, then you can actually tailor the treatment specifically to the cause and then you're not wasting money and time and energy treating something that you don't even have.
Kendra Perry: So can we talk a little bit about the causes? I'm super interested what you found to be some of the primary drivers of the chronic fatigue, because I think from a conventional medical model I mean, no one really talks about that and I don't really even think there's a treatment for something like that.
Christine: No, I can only imagine that if you go to your doctor simply let's get some blood work done and then, you know, it might be a sluggish thyroid, but that's probably everything that there's in the toolbox. That's what I would imagine.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, conventionally it's thyroid, it's liver disease, congestive heart failure, it's like some of the more severe stuff that are usually as you get older, hepatitis, can be some of those too, but it's mainly thyroid. And so what I've found is that there's fifteen different causes of fatigue and they can really be grouped into two categories: one is of deficiencies and one is of toxicities. So the deficiencies are deficiencies in hormones, adrenals, thyroid, sex hormones, as well as nutrients, and then of course deficiencies in lifestyle stuff like sleep, deficiencies in exercise unless they're really chronically fatigued where they shouldn't be exercising. Deficiencies in water since most of us are walking around chronically dehydrated. And then [crosstalk 00:07:39] There you go, right?
Christine: Yeah see, you're right there and I'm just like, "guilty."
Dr. Evan Hirsch: We're going to pause this so that Christine can go get some water.
Christine: [inaudible 00:07:47] Slipping on stuff and I literally came up to my office and I saw my water bottle and I was like [inaudible 00:07:52]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Vader. And then there's the toxicities: heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, allergies, negative emotions, which people really undervalue. [crosstalk 00:08:06] Electromagnetic frequencies, you know all these toxicities that we're exposed to nowadays that just really cause all of those deficiencies. So, those are really, I found that there's like different levels of problems, so I'll consider a level one problem as a problem that can be fixed with lifestyle, lifestyle and diet. And the level two problem is one that can be fixed with deficiency and then level three problem is the one that people have a number of toxicities that have to be removed, and so those are the harder ones to treat.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, you definitely come across people where you're like, "Do we even need to do testing? It sounds like you just need to stop eating fruit loops in the morning and start liking your life again."
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Right! Huge.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, totally. That's awesome. That's such a comprehensive list, I love it, like that's exactly what I would say, so I feel like we're on the same page in that we should be friends.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Absolutely.
Christine: Yeah I was like, "Totally," but I'm the like, you know the person, I'm like the one in the back in the classroom like, "Aw fuck this isn't how I learned to do," you know? So there is a, I have a plan. I'm a new practitioner, which I'm not people, but you know, imagine me to do, a lazy one. But how do you work through this? It totally makes sense, right? Those are all the things where I would go, "Light bulb, light bulb," and check, check, check, and see what's going on.
Christine: But if I have someone, and say we just had a coach who just went to health coach school, a general health coach school, and it's like, "Oh my god, I'm totally overwhelmed right now." Do you have a priority list? How do you even tackle all of this? I mean for us, I think, after a while you just even listen to the person and you kind of see things flare up in them, like in their aura, you know, however you work. You just hear it out. But when you haven't had as many clients yet, how do you logically do this?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So you do kind of like what I talked about going from like level one to level three. So you start off with the stuff that you know. If you've just come out of school, you know about lifestyle and diet stuff. So you're going to clean up their diet, you're going to get rid of their grains and their gluten and their dairy and all that crap, and you're going to get them sleeping better, and you're going to start working on mindset stuff, so all of that stuff can be really great and you can get a certain number of people better. And then if you're not getting results in three months or so, depending on how often you're seeing them, then you're going to move on to level two.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So then you're going to look at okay, let's start running some labs. This isn't that way that I do it, I get all of my labs, I try to get them all up front as soon as possible 'cause I find it saves a lot of time, but you also don't have to have your people spending $4000 on all these labs initially, 'cause that's not your specialty.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So then you start looking at the deficiencies. So you're looking at adrenals, thyroid, sex hormones, nutrients, making sure they're drinking enough water. You know, all these sort of things. That's where I would go. And then if you're still not having success, and you also have to make sure your treatments are correct, that you're optimizing all these things. So I do ramp-ups on all of these things, 'cause most of the time the body's going to tell you when you've have enough of them. So if you're ramping up on your adrenals, you've got them nice and robust, and then you move on to mitochondrial support, and then you move on to thyroid, I call those the big three, and I ramp up on each of those to a significant amount so that you're making sure that you're giving, 'cause I like to move the needle.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So I like to use things that are powerful and safe at the same time which is why I love natural medicine. So we ramp up on those, and that's going to give you an idea about how much, what you have to go to next, but you want to make sure that you're doing it right, that you're not just giving somebody a glandular on adrenal support, or if you're giving them, the worst is giving them adaptogens. 'Cause adaptogens are wonderfully balancing, but they're usually not strong enough and you're not going to shift the needle if somebody's got fatigue.
Kendra Perry: Okay, I love that. I'm always saying the same thing about adaptogens. I'm just like, sure, but it's not really going to do anything. I just want to back up a little bit because I want to, can you actually tell me what is chronic fatigue syndrome, how is it diagnosed, and is there a difference between chronic fatigue and chronic fatigue syndrome, or are they synonymous? I would love to know that.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, they are totally different. Not totally, but they are different. And they're a gamut. You know, whenever I'm looking at things I'm always looking at a gamut. I don't care about these diagnoses. Chronic fatigue syndrome, according to the Institute of Medicine and CDC and stuff like that is, if you had a certain number of symptoms for six months. Well, if you've had fatigue that's not relieve, I mean the way that I define fatigue is if you have fatigue if you're tired and it's not relieved by rest.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So if you're getting seven to nine hours of sleep a night, good sleep, and you're waking up and you are still tired, then there's a problem. And even after a week of this happening, you really need to start looking at what's going on here and what might be some of the causes. Now, if you've just had the flu that wiped you out and it's taken you a month to recover, first of it shouldn't take that long, but second off, as long as you recover and you get back to base line, like you're doing all right.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: But if it's lingering, you want to do something about it sooner than later. The body is yelling at you to do something about it. You have to listen. So I consider, and then chronic fatigue is just that persisting for several weeks to several months. It doesn't have to be six months and it doesn't have to be all those other symptoms that they talk about too.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, it's so interesting because I say chronic fatigue a lot. Like I say debilitating fatigue, ongoing fatigue, chronic fatigue, and I say chronic fatigue a lot and I get these people messaging me on Facebook who have chronic fatigue syndrome and they're getting mad at me, 'cause they're like, "You make it sound like you can actually reverse it and get rid of it! You shouldn't say that and you shouldn't say that," and I'm like, "Well, I think you can reverse it."
Christine: I think you can.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:14:09] That's kind of what I'm trying to tell you. It's just interesting. Thanks for clarifying that.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah and you know that challenge is that they haven't been helped and it's been 10, 20, 30 years, so then they get pissed off at somebody talking about a way to help somebody, and either they don't have the hope anymore to explore another option. They are resigned to where they're at. So now they're just pissed off because what if you're right? What if you're right and you can heal it and that means that they've been suffering needlessly for all of these years and they don't want to take that next step because it's too scary or it's too challenging or it's too expensive or whatever they think.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I think people really, a big reason why I don't like diagnoses is that people really connect with it. They bring their diagnosis into their story and-
Christine: They become the diagnosis.
Kendra Perry: They become it, yeah. So I think that's a tough one to deal with for sure. [crosstalk 00:15:03]
Christine: They define everything by their diagnosis. "Oh, I can't do this 'cause I have thyroid," "Oh, I can't do this because I'm gluten intolerant," and it's like, work on it then! It's like...
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Although it's challenging to hold both sides, too, because often times having a diagnosis can be really comforting. You know, as long as it's the cause. Like, okay, I've got heavy metals, chemicals, molds, and infections. Yes, there's a lot of reasons why you have fatigue. So it's like, "Oh, and all of a sudden I've been suffering all this time and now I know why." That's very different than grabbing that label and being like, "I can't do things because I've got this label."
Christine: Absolutely. So I have a question. When we were talking about gauging the needle and not using adaptogens and things like that. I find it really hard to find research on what to use. So I use only natural supplements of course, but I find it really really difficult to know what to use, what not to use, obviously I'm in Europe, so I'm more limited as well. How did you figure out your protocols? How did you, I can imagine you had to figure it out by yourself. I can't imagine that it was just there.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Correct. Well I mean, I like to copy people who are successful and then I make modifications. And I like to ramp-up and I like to experiment, so I'm going to keep pushing the dose until the body says, "No," and I do that enough times where I get an idea about what a good dose is, what a good dose isn't, what side effects people are going to get from things like licorice root. I used to use licorice root all the time with everybody in high doses and then people started getting high blood pressure and they get all this swelling and electrolyte imbalance and I'm like, "Oh no, I've got to find something else. Licorice root is good as a part of all this, but I've got to find other things in order to complement."
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So you look at the research, you look at what other people are doing that they say is successful, but you always have to take that with a grain of salt because everybody thinks their protocols are amazing.
Christine: Yeah, for sure. I'm just too overwhelmed to even change mine. [inaudible 00:17:06] Obviously they work, but I'm convinced that there could be even better ones, but literally at the moment it's just too overwhelming. I think I could fall into that rabbit hole and just not come out of it for years. Just give it to me, tell me what to do. But things are looking well, I mean that's why we take other courses and why we try to [inaudible 00:17:29]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Right. And being curious, and when you can't help somebody that you go back to the drawing board. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water, but you say, "Okay, what am I missing?" So if they're working, awesome, that's great. If they're working 100% of the time, great, but if they're working 95% of the time then when they're not working, then it's like, "Okay, what am I missing," and that's when you learn. And that's what happened to me and in treating myself and in treating all of these people.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I started off in integrative medicine and functional medicine where I was like, "Okay, I'm fixing all these deficiencies, I got a certain number of people better," and then there were people who I couldn't get better. It's like, "Okay, now I need to go to environmental medicine. I need to start learning more about," I never wanted to treat infections. It was always way too complicated for me and all this stuff about Lyme and I was like, "I do not want to go into that world." But then I realized that I couldn't help those people until I started learning.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I read Horowitz's awesome book on differentiating all the co-infections and then I started learning more about these awesome supplement lines like Fire and White and Beyond Balance and a number of these that are really good at getting at the infections. I learned about LDI, Low Dose Immunotherapy, and became an expert in those things because I had to, and because it's so incredibly gratifying when somebody comes and I can say, "Oh, you've got bartonella and I know exactly how to treat you and you're going to feel better in this amount of period."
Kendra Perry: I'm super intrigued-
Christine: [crosstalk 00:19:00] Because it's true! It's like, I love it. [inaudible 00:19:01]
Kendra Perry: I know. It's overwhelming for sure, there's a lot [inaudible 00:19:04] and you have to be a forever student. But I'm super intrigued about Lyme and mold these days, 'cause yeah, that's not something I ever wanted to deal with. I would refer those people out, but now I have all these women in my group membership program where I'm like, "I think you have mold. I think you have Lyme." And now I'm like, "Oh crap. I was right about this." And so how often do you find that is involved in fatigued and what's sort of your general approach to those types of people, because I know the symptoms for the two can be very, like the same and there can be a lot of overlap with the two as well.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, there's a huge amount of overlap and so there's certain things, as I'm going through creating my group coaching program right now, there's a certain things that I asterisk where you can really kind of make a diagnosis by symptoms, but there are certain things that you can't. And a lot of the toxicities you can't because there's so much crossover. But mold is huge. I never thought I would be dealing with so much mold, but 50% of all the buildings in our country in the modern world have water damage.
Kendra Perry: 50%?! Holy crap. I was like, "What?" Okay, that's good to know.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And most of those have mold. And so then it really depends on how much exposure you've had, what your genes look like. I don't ascribe to the Shoemaker protocol and it's entirety, but there's certain things that I pull out that I think are good. You have to assess the body, looking at mold in the body, and you have to assess the home, looking at mold in the home. Because if somebody's living in a moldy environment, I can't get them better.
Christine: I know, it's nuts. And I just had a client who showed me a picture and everything was green, like literally. And it was a new building, it was only five years old, but obviously they skimped on building materials, I don't know. But it's so hard because I was like, "You have to move, basically," and she's was like, "No fucking way," and I was like," Well there's not much I can do." But it's rough. I think it's so underestimated and I had just a friend last week posting on Facebook that she needs a place to go because she go severely sick and she just found out it was because of mold and she needs to move. It's nuts. I think it's a topic that, as an integrative practitioner, a functional medicine practitioner, you have to know about. And so it's on my to-do list as well.
Kendra Perry: I still have a mold course, so I'll give you access to it, Christine. You can- [crosstalk 00:21:24]
Christine: Oh good. I still haven't done yours, you know! I'm like, so it's literally my course! For some reason I'm just like, I need to oh god, I need a second life, yeah.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And Kendra if you want me to come talk about mold in your course, I'm happy to do so.
Kendra Perry: I would love that. That would be so fantastic, because yeah, it's a hot topic. A lot of people are asking about it. I sort of know a few things like, generally to do. I'm making sure I'm asking those questions in the intake form, but yeah, I'm kind of like, "Okay, we need to do," so obviously the first step is getting out of the mold environment when it comes to mold. And then after that, I've heard that you want to do a lot of binding. Is that your approach?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah. And so, just to give you specifics, the ERMI test for the home, initially, to determine whether or not they have mold in the home, because they could, and then you want to do a urine mycotoxin test, either through Real Time Labs or through Great Plains. And so then you know there's mold in your body and whether or not there's mold in your home. If there's mold in your body and there's no mold in your home, and you know that the mold in your body is from another location, either from work or your car...
Kendra Perry: In your car? Would that be like for people who live in like a rainy, tropical environment? Would they have moldy cars? 'Cause that can happen to anyone.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: It can happen to anybody. Oftentimes it's because the mold will get into the clothes, it'll get into furniture, it can get in get into everything and then you just basically take those clothes into your car and then your car gets moldy. But oftentimes there can be a leak in the car as well. But once you make sure, you look at all those things, you make sure the person's not being exposed to mold, then you know, "Okay, this is from a previous place."
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Like I lived in a moldy place when I was in medical school, so I was like, "Okay, my place is clean now. It means that the mold that is in my body right now is from a previous infestation, a previous exposure, and so then I need to remove that." And so then that's with binders, so there's a number of different binders. There's activated charcoal, there are the french clays, there are humic and folic acids, oftentimes using a combination can be good. There's certain binders that are better for different things. And then using glutathiones so oftentimes binding things up and using glutathione to get it out. So those are kind of the big things that I'll use.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And then if somebody can't get out of a space, oftentimes using an air filter like IQ Air or the Air Doctor. Basically, you want something that can get mycotoxins or mold toxins which are particle size that are down to .003 microns. And so you have to use something like those two that'll get down that small. You can't just use a regular HEPA filter, because those will get mold spores. They may say "mold" on them, but that's just mold spores, that's not mycotoxins.
Kendra Perry: Right. Yeah, that's so interesting. So what I've found with the people who I suspect have mold, they're the people who just like don't respond normally to the protocol that I give them. It seems like every time we try to do anything with them, they're like having a crazy, exaggerated, intense reaction and you're just like, "Oh my god. Like, what is going on here." And yeah, they just seem to, do their detox pathways get really clogged up or something or does that affect that? Because that's what I see.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Absolutely. Yeah, and some of the symptoms that they'll get that are less non-specific or more specific are some of the sinus stuff, sometimes they'll get ear congestion. They can get itching, so itching around the anus, itching around the ears, which can be fungi in general, it can be yeast or mold. You can get neuropathies. Often times they will walk into a place, they can detect mold instantly because they've got so much mold in their sinuses, so they can smell it, and then they know that they need to leave, otherwise they're going to start getting brain fog. So those are some of the more specific symptoms. But otherwise it's just the chronic fatigue and the sensitivities are really a big one.
Kendra Perry: Oh man, that's so interesting. So mold is a big one. So something I'm interested about, I feel like mold has always been around, do you think there's something going on these days that is making us more sensitive to mold? Because it's not like mold is a new thing. Hasn't it always been around?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yes. But there's a couple things. So one is total body burden. So the more crap that you have on your liver and the more crap that you have on your immune system, the worse your going to be, so the more reactive you're going to be. If you've got heavy metals, chemicals, and molds, which then allows a bunch of these infections to become opportunistic in the body and start wreaking havoc. That's one thing.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: The other thing is kind of how buildings are made. I've got a 1920's home, it's got good ventilation. A lot of the newer homes are sealed way too soon. So usually you know, Christine you were talking about this like it's only a five year-old home. If you're driving around town, you're seeing a home being built and it's raining and it's framed, it's just being in the framing stage or whatever, it's just wood, like that home is just prime because it gets wet. As soon as they think it dries, all of a sudden they're tightening it up, sealing it up really tight, and then it's nice and warm, and that wet wood is all the sudden starting to grow mold.
Kendra Perry: My mind is just blown. I'm building a house right now.
Christine: [crosstalk 00:26:53] You're like, "No!"
Kendra Perry: I'm like, "Oh my god, what do I need to do?"
Christine: Yeah, but it's a problem here because all the new houses are, in Europe, have this energy pass, you know? So they need to be type A which means that they have to use as less energy as possible which means that insulation is crazy. It's supposed to be that you shouldn't even open your windows, so ventilation is inside of the house all the time. But what I can see is that yes, it's super hot all the time, first of all, you do need less energy, but it's because everything is so isolated.
Christine: And the thing, though, that you can see pretty much everywhere and here in Luxembourg we are building like crazy at the moment, is that even after a few years, even the outside starts to become very very green. Like it starts to mold from the outside already which just shows me that, okay, even if this is just outside, it's not in your bathroom, this cannot be healthy. And it's beautiful, like high standard buildings, but I just think that we have a building practice at the moment that hasn't been thought through. So I think it's like, yeah this is not going to work. It's going to have some effects down the line for sure.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, and what people can do proactively is just do testing, you know? Like even something cheap like a mold plate test every year, every couple of years, making sure that if you do have a leak, looking in your attic, looking in your basement. If you do have a leak that you address it as soon as possible. Oftentimes as soon as the leak happens, you're already too late or you have to start doing some remediation. But staying on top of it as much as possible. It is unfortunate, but all you can do is the best that you can, and then just make sure you've got binders on board. I recommend that most people should be consuming binders on a regular basis anyway because of all the crap that we're exposed to, so.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I take binders three times a day and it's like I've been doing this BioTox which is a binder of some of the stuff you mentioned: humic acid, folic acid, yucca root. Yeah, the Microbe Formulas guys, they make good products. I'm into them. Very cool.
Kendra Perry: Okay, so mold is a big one. Can you talk a little bit about the environmental stuff, like the heavy metals and stuff? Because I love this. This is a big one and I love seeing people talking about it because I feel like, right now, gut health and infections is so trendy and popular and everyone's talking about it, but I a lot less hear people actually talking about the environmental chemicals, the environmental toxins and how that is huge in chronic fatigue.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah. And you know we all start off treating the gut. It's kind of what we learn. And at some point, as you get better and you start getting sicker patients, you're gonna be treating the gut and you're not going to be having success. And then you're going to have to start looking at these other things and that's what happened to me. So yeah, heavy metals, lots of exposures. Mercury amalgams.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I had a lot of mercury, I mean I had pretty much every cause which is why I had fatigue. And so I had a lot of mercury from growing up, I had like tuna fish several times a week. The bigger the fish, the more mercury because of all the coal plants that we have in the world right now that are producing mercury vapor that goes into our oceans. So everything that's coming out of the ocean right now has mercury in it, and the bigger the fish, the more the fat, the more the mercury. So tuna and swordfish are huge and so I had a lot of tuna fish growing up, I had mercury filling, every time you bite down you're releasing mercury vapor from that amalgam.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So that was my exposure. Arsenic we know about issues with rice. In this country we know about runoff in some of the stuff and some of the herbs and whatnot from China. You've got industrial plant on top of the hill and then the farms down below. And that can be anywhere in the world, not just China. Cadmium from second hand smoke or smoking. So there's a lot of, and then lead, you know it's so interesting the stories that I get, people who are working with plasters or just doing art stuff or lead, lead paints, lead gasoline. So and so grew up outside a lead gas station, or their father worked in a gas station or whatever.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: The other thing that's really interesting too that people don't realize is that a lot of this stuff gets passed down from mother to child vertically through the placenta. So, moms dump all of their good stuff into their babies and all of their bad stuff. So heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, all this stuff are going to get dumped into the baby. Which is why there are some people who, they have have children who have autism, and they're like, "I have no clue why." And when you do the testing, they're just full of toxins.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: There's several studies now on assessing umbilical cord blood and there's 250 different kinds of chemicals and toxins that are found in umbilical cord blood. So these kids are coming out toxic, which is why, our kids are supposed to be the first generation that's not going to outlive their parents. So I mean, this is a huge problem. A lot of this stuff we are getting through that passing, through the placenta. So yeah, that's heavy metals. I don't know-
Kendra Perry: Yeah, that generational toxicity is a big thing. Like I'm pretty sure I came into this world with a whole bunch of crap. Because my parents are like in their mid-seventies and my dad can still kick my ass on a mountain bike and I can't keep up and it's embarrassing. Generational toxicity!
Christine: Damn you, Karen!
Kendra Perry: I can't keep up!
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Right, well and he doesn't have your mother's toxicity.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, exactly. That's a good point. And I mean my parents, they were raised on eating actual farmer's food. They were raised on, I was raised in the 80's. I ate margarine and low fat everything and [inaudible 00:32:45].
Christine: Such a difference made.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. So it's like when you look at all these causes, it really kind of, you're like, "Well no wonder everyone's so tired." And it's definitely the most common symptom I see in my clients which is why I really transitioned to kind of focusing on it, because originally I was doing gut and hormones and then I was like, "Everyone's so fucking tired. Maybe we should start talking about this." It's so common.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And it's so complex. I think if you can treat autistic kids, that's like the ultimate in functional medicine. And then next is fatigue. I mean, because there's so many different causes. You have to be able to treat the gut. You have to be able to treat all these toxicities. There's just so many potential causes.
Christine: It's like this beautiful kaleidoscope of fangs, you know? So I'm still look for like, do you do mentorships or anything like that? I have all these courses I want to take and I'm just like, "It's too much," you know? But is it something that you do?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I'm going to be coming out with a course in the next six months or so with-
Christine: For practitioners as well, or?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, for practitioners.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, awesome.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Right now I'm doing the group coaching for clients, but then yeah, practitioners. And it's going to be, I'll have like live Q&A twice a month or so so that we can go over cases in addition to having the digital content so people can run their cases. And I'll do it probably as a membership model so that, if people use it for what they need and then if they don't need it, they don't need it sort of thing.
Christine: Sign me up!
Kendra Perry: Me too. I love it. Yeah, I think there needs to be more courses for practitioners that kind of ties everything together, 'cause who were we interviewing the other day?
Kendra Perry: It was a doctor. Oh yeah, Tim Jackson. He's like, "There's no school for functional medicine. Sure there's a university of functional medicine, but it's not very functional." And I mean, and you still can't run the test, right? You really need to bring it together and I feel like we can all kind of like, all of us practitioners should just combine brains and make a super brain.
Christine: It's very true. I think we have such a huge movement and so many really smart people that come out with their protocols with, you know, what you do right now you know, Evan. Like learn from every expert and then puzzle it together. It's just like, I'm the lazy one, I just wait until all you guys come out with courses and just, you know, summarize the whole thing.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: That's not lazy, that's smart.
Kendra Perry: That is smart.
Christine: I'm a CliffsNotes kind of person, you know?
Kendra Perry: Well that's good though, 'cause a lot of people are just like you, right? They don't want to be boots on the ground, they just want to get the information from the experts and that's totally cool. No shame in that, girl. Don't shame yourself.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, no shame.
Christine: I got fine while I fooled with this, so it's totally fine. But I feel like there is no real hub, you know? So it is a shame a little bit, 'cause I think a lot of us have to re-invent the wheel in a way all the time. But it's obviously good if you understand everything, but it makes me and I'm sure a lot of listeners very happy to know that you're coming out with a course and a membership. So that's awesome to hear.
Kendra Perry: We'll keep our listeners posted on that course, just [crosstalk 00:35:49]
Christine: Yes, please keep[crosstalk 00:35:51]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I will.
Christine: So we can let them know when it's ready.
Kendra Perry: Okay. Can we talk a little bit about Lyme? This is another one that I'd love to pick your brain on, 'cause yeah, another one where I have the mold/Lyme people where I'm like, "You maybe have mold, but maybe you have Lyme." And we addressed mold, but let's talk a little bit about Lyme. And do you think people can still have Lyme even if they didn't notice that bullseye bite on their body?
Christine: [inaudible 00:36:17] thing, yeah.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, only about 10% of people actually get the bullseye rash.
Kendra Perry: Awesome.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah and oftentimes they don't have Lyme per se, like borrelia, but they can have a lot of the other co-infections. So there's a lot that can travel inside that tick or anything that takes a blood meal. So it can be ticks, it can be sand flies, it can be biting fleas, it can be blood transfusion. It can be vertically from mother to child, it can be sex, it can be kissing, like there's so many different ways that you can get a lot of this stuff. They're very opportunistic bugs.
Christine: I just want to create a bubble right now and just go inside.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Well and sometimes it's not even a big inoculation. I was talking to somebody yesterday who yes, he got bit by a tick. He saw this big fat tick and then he was really badly fatigued. It's like, yeah that's real causation, but for a lot of folks, they don't have that sort of thing. And oftentimes, we all have these infections.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So bartonella is an infection that's found in upwards of 50% of all domestic animals. If you've ever been licked in the face by a cat or a dog or whatever, you probably have bartonella, but you don't have the symptoms of it because your immune system keeps it in check.
Kendra Perry: Right.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And so it's only when these bugs become out of balance and they become opportunistic when you get heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, motor vehicle accident, divorce, stressful whatever that causes the cortisol to stop managing the immune system and then these bugs come out and say, "Hey nobody's managing us anymore. Let's have a party!"
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I would, too. I would do that exact same thing.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Exactly.
Christine: You and me both, girl. [crosstalk 00:38:00]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So you don't have to get, so a lot of us have these bugs already, you know. Epstein-barr virus. It's like being re triggered. So it's setting up an environment that is not habitable for these bugs. It's creating more of a balance and it's less about eradication because oftentimes we can't destroy them entirely. We just want to bring the volume down on them and then release the immune system. Because what I've found is if you don't have a functioning immune system, you cannot bring those bugs back into balance. And you can't have a functioning immune system if you've got heavy metals, chemicals, and molds.
Kendra Perry: Word.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: You're not going to bring the immune system back in balance with the bugs.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. And do you think there's a way to address Lyme that doesn't involve a ton of antibiotics? I feel like most of the Lyme people I meet, they're on a crazy antibiotic schedule. I mean like, okay well maybe that'll work, but what's going to happen after that?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, I don't use any antibiotics and I get really good success. You know, all the research on antibiotics are, you stop the antibiotics and your symptoms come back.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, there you go.
Christine: Why is nobody telling you that, right? It's like, seriously, people?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: But the herbs will go deeper and you will get more eradication, but the challenge is, like I said, a lot of those people. So this is also a challenge of the functional medicine community is 'cause you've got the mold expert and you've got the Lyme expert and you've got the leaky gut expert, but nobody's pulling this stuff together like you're talking about with Tim.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: It's just not happening. So if somebody's focusing on Lyme and they're not getting rid of heavy metals, chemicals, and molds, then they're never going to be able to get rid of these bugs, you know? And there's good research on that too. I know that there was one study on mold and Lyme, people who had both, when they treated the mold, the Lyme went away.
Kendra Perry: Oh, interesting.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, and it was a small study but it's still significant. I still see it a lot where we remove those things and then we can get rid of the Lyme. The other thing, too, is figuring out exactly which bug somebody has because, and this is another one of the problems with the antibiotics, is that in order to address all of them, you have to use multiples and different combinations, and the herbs are a lot more elegant in terms of how they work. But, you have to be very specific that you have. So you know, if somebody's got borrelia, AKA Lyme, they have to have symptoms of either muscle pain, joint pain, or nerve pain that moves around the body and comes and goes.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So if you don't have those symptoms, you can't have borrelia. If you have bartonella, you're going to have three of the following symptoms, where headaches, neck pain, body pain, anxiety, depression, sleep problems, pain on the bottom of the feet, usually misdiagnosed as plantar fasciatus, cramping, usually in the calves, usually at night, cramping of the muscles, usually in the calves usually at night, thyroid problems, usually stretch marks, often times in weird places on the body. So those are all going to be, and if you have three of those, often times that can be really indicative of bartonella, especially the pain on the bottom of the feet and the muscle cramping.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: But it's huge in people who can't sleep. So Christine this is really big where-
Christine: This is very good. I'm going to ask them about their feet next time. I haven't done that yet, but...
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Absolutely, yeah. Ask them about-[crosstalk 00:41:27]
Christine: Dude, it's just like another question in my questionnaire where people are like, "Why would you want to know about this?" And it's like, "Yeah well now..."
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah if I don't get people better with replacing all the deficiencies and working on all the sleep stuff that we talked about on your summit, then I go into the infections, you know. Bartonella can play a big role. And then babesia plays a huge role. Often times these people can't sleep at all. They have sweats because it's very [crosstalk 00:41:56] it's malaria where they'll have day sweats or night sweats. They usually have shortness of breath or a cough or some sort of lung issue that's happening.
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:42:04]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And then they have really bad anxiety to the point of panic and they've got really bad depression to the point of suicidal thoughts. And most of the people that commit suicide around these things usually have babesia. So trying to fine tune, and then to make things more complicated, different parts of the country these bugs are going to look differently. Different parts of the world, these bugs are going to look differently. So I recently was at a conference where I learned that actually on the East coast, sometimes those bartonella symptoms that I just mentioned can be from babesia. It's like, "All right, great. So if I'm not having success this way, then I have to start looking for that." So it can be more complicated, but those symptoms can really help point people in the right direction. They can be like, "Oh my gosh, I totally have bartonella and nobody's ever talked to me about that before!" And the treatment's not that hard as long as, treatment's not that hard if it's straightforward, but you know you have to remove all the other crap too.
Kendra Perry: And so it's better to kind of determine if you have these infections based on symptoms and not with testing? Or is there a way to test for these things?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, so the blood testing is not good because when we're looking at Western blot tests or whatever for Lyme or any sort of serology test, you're looking at the immune system's reaction to the infection. So if the immune system is dysfunctional because you have heavy metals, chemicals, and molds, and if you're looking, you're trying to assess for a test where the thing that you're testing for is not working right. So I really like the DNA connections test which is a urine PCR test. And I try to provocate every test that I do. I try to provoke it. I try to push things out of their hiding spots and so what they do is they, you can either do intense exercise for 30 minutes prior to that urine test, or you can get a lymph massage prior to the urine test because a lot of this stuff is [crosstalk 00:43:54]
Christine: Oh, my god. My mind has been blown this entire episode.
Kendra Perry: I know! I've taken like five pages of notes!
Christine: The glasses emoji is like, right in my face.
Kendra Perry: I've got the star one, the stars eyes emoji.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Well we're recording it right? Oh no, we're not recording! Just kidding.
Kendra Perry: No, we are. Oh my god that's happened before. Don't scare us.
Christine: Yeah, don't joke. But this is awesome. I'm just like, gosh, your brain.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, this is awesome.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Just trying to drop a ton of knowledge.
Christine: Good, we like that.
Kendra Perry: So good.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And don't get overwhelmed, anybody. This is just knowledge, this is just education, you don't have to do anything about this right now. Just take it for what it is.
Christine: Just sign up to Evan's course once it's ready.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, like you said if you came and talked to my practitioners, because it's so funny. I'm like going through a lesson, I'm like, "This is a lot of information. I'm probably overwhelming you," and they're like, "Bring it on! I love being overwhelmed!" It's so hilarious. I'm like, "Okay, here you go!"
Christine: It's true, though. Like when I get into something I'm a pit bull, like I can't let go. I want to know everything, like every little bit of it. But I think that's like a common trait. But I wish we had, like I really have this idea that at some point we need to bring all of, maybe our guests or just everyone you know together and just like, everyone has brain dump their expertise and we'll [inaudible 00:45:22]. Just like a charge [inaudible 00:45:25] all our knowledge in like one thing. Wouldn't that be amazing?
Kendra Perry: The ultimate brain.
Christine: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It would be awesome. I need to think about that. I need to do something like that. No, this is awesome, like I love it so much.
Kendra Perry: Okay, so what haven't we talked about. I feel like we've talked about a lot of good stuff.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Let's see. Heavy metals, well we haven't talked about, so chemicals, 84,000 chemicals that we're exposed to on a regular basis. You know, everything from lipsticks and cosmetics to pesticides in our foods. There's been some good studies on before and after with kids. Feeding them an organic diet versus a non-organic diet and they have pesticides in their urine and they've got behavior issues and you remove them and they get better. And I really like the Skin Deep website [crosstalk 00:46:18]
Kendra Perry: I use that all the time.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: EWG.org. Really important site for making sure your cosmetics are clean. You know 70%, this is coming back to heavy metals, but 70% of all lipsticks have lead in them. It's really important not to be, and these nano particles are awful, too. There's toxicities in these nano particles that are getting, it's like getting an IV of chemicals right into your body. So chemicals are a big one to avoid.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I think, I mean women, I see this a lot in my membership because its for women and I mean like, they're just lathering, I mean women use so many products. When I go see my girlfriends in the city I'm like, "What the fuck is on your vanity?" There's like 500 products and I'm like, "What are you even like, do you spend like five hours getting ready in the morning? What's all that shit for?" It's crazy. It's totally crazy. And yeah, women just put it all over their skin, make up, make up's a really bad one. Really hard to find, I find, good non-toxic make up that also doesn't have metals in it. Because even some of the mineral make ups have titanium in them or different iron oxides, that sort of thing. It's a tough one. [inaudible 00:47:24] Give me an idea.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: It is.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. And what are your thoughts on glyphosate. That's a bad one, hey?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Oh yeah, for sure, yeah. I like to test glyphosate in people. But yeah, glyphosate is Round Up. It's that weed killer that causes a lot of neuropathies. It's very quickly becoming a cause of type 2 diabetes. Seeing as like skinny diabetes. You know people who are like, "Why do you have type 2 diabetes?" Well, it's because the pancreas has been toxified by pesticides including glyphosate. And then the insulin can't manage the blood sugars anymore.
Kendra Perry: And which test are you using to test for glyphosate?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I like Great Plains. I like a lot of their tests.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:48:05] Is it like a GPL-TOX one, or?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: They've got a glyphosate one.
Kendra Perry: Oh, they do? [crosstalk 00:48:12]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, it's like $99.
Kendra Perry: Oh, awesome. I'm going to order it today.
Christine: We have a different version of glyphosate over here, across the pond.
Kendra Perry: Really?
Christine: Yeah. It's still glyphosate, but it's still toxic, most likely, but it's different. It's different from the US because a lot of the ingredients have been taken out because they don't qualify for EU standards.
Kendra Perry: The EU is much ahead of North America, that's for sure.
Christine: There's always like, I feel a little bit better, but it's like, yeah. Still not idea.
Kendra Perry: And so if you could choose three tests to run on every single client you ever saw, what tests would they be? What are your top three?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Let's see. So when I do my assessment, symptom-wise I can determine adrenals, thyroid, sex hormones, mitochondria for the most part, so I don't need to test on those so much. Let's see. Heavy metals, chemicals, molds... You said three tests?
Kendra Perry: Three tests. Only three. You can only run three.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Only run three. So I would say heavy metals and I would say urine mycotoxin for molds. Oh, and the heavy metal test would be a provocated urine test from doctor's data, and then the urine mycotoxin test from Great Plains labs, and then provocated with glutathione, and then I would do the GI map test for stool infections. And a fourth would be serology for like Epstein-barr, mycoplasma, chlamydia.
Kendra Perry: Interesting. Very cool. I always run heavy metals test, I always run the GI test. Those are part of my top ones, too. I love it. We're on the same page, great. Love it. [crosstalk 00:50:09]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Great. Awesome. It's always nice to get that confirmation.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I love it. And I'm going to look into this urine mycotoxins test. I find that really interesting. Learn a little bit more about that. Awesome, well thank you so much! This has been enlightening, both our heads exploded multiple times during this [crosstalk 00:50:24] which is a good thing, we like our heads to explode on this podcast.
Christine: We do.
Kendra Perry: Do you have any last questions, Christine?
Christine: No, I am exhausted. I have a little brain, you know? But no, I love it, absolutely love it. I think we have to get you back on at some point to talk about your group program and all of the things that you do, you know. Client-wise, too.
Kendra Perry: The business side of things.
Christine: Yeah, so we'll have to do a part two, so stay tuned for that. But thank you so much. This has been so much wisdom. I cannot wait for your program to come out now for practitioners. Like, really am like, I'm ready, go.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: All right, I'm getting on it.
Christine: But yeah, I think that's pretty much it. Oh, you obviously have a book, so people should obviously get that. And just tell people who-
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Right, I've dumped a lot of my protocols into the book.
Kendra Perry: I'm sorry is it called "Fix Your Fatigue?" Is that the name of your book?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: It's called "Fix Your Fatigue," yeah.
Kendra Perry: "Fix Your Fatigue," awesome I'm going to [crosstalk 00:51:17] buy it today
Dr. Evan Hirsch: It's on Amazon. You can find more about me at fixyourfatigue.org. There's links to my free Facebook group. You can actually download right now, I don't know how much longer it's going to be up there, but you can download my book as a PDF for free right now on my website.
Christine: [crosstalk 00:51:34] I think I have it, actually.
Kendra Perry: I want that. Awesome.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And then I've got the group program which started in January. And I'm doing live trainings, but I'm also recording all of it so people can jump in at anytime.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Amazing. And all your social media handles are Fixyourfatigue, hey?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: They are, yeah. DrEvanHirsch or Fixyourfatigue.
Kendra Perry: Okay, perfect. Awesome. All right, guys, thank you so much for joining in. Remember, we love Instagram stories, so take a screen shot of this episode if you're listening and share it to your stories. Mention @360HealthBizPodcast and we will share it back to our stories and we will be mutual friends on Instagram. And follow us if you're not already following us and thanks so much guys. As always, we really appreciate you hanging out with us and dealing with our ridiculous talks, and we will see you again in two weeks time. Bye!
Podcasts are our go to learning tools for business & marketing. While Kendra listens to true crime podcasts before she goes to sleep at night, Christine finds community in listening to podcasts (thankfully not within the true crime podcasts). You can listen to ANY podcasts ANY WHERE at ANY TIME. In this episode, we delve into our top 10 favorite podcasts about business and health. The commonality of them all – real hosts with great tips and fun energy. Tune in to this episode to find out what great podcasts we listen to!
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Christine Hanse: Hello, wonderful people out there. Welcome to a new episode of The 360 Health Biz Podcast today with the hostess of the mostest times two, we have the wonderful Kendra Perry coming in live from Nelson, Canada. Lovely, and very refreshed from a little spa time out, which we can never have enough of when we do heavy lifting, lots of hustling, we do our time out; and myself, Christine Hansen. We're super excited to talk to you today. This episode is going to be a little bit meta because we're going to look at other podcasts that we actually like and that we love listening to. Just giving you guys some ideas on what else you can put into your subscribe list. Obviously, you will have us on there already.
Kendra Perry: I think so.
Christine Hanse: Obviously, you adore us and you've left us a review on iTunes. We actually want to thank one of you who's done that. Kendra, I'm going ahead and give this over to you and just have a quick thank you session here. Then we're going to get straight into our material of this week.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Thanks, Christine, for the wonderful intro as always. Yeah, I'm pretty excited about this review because I know they don't make it the easiest for you to review podcasts. It's too bad. You can't just do it in the app. You actually have to go to the website. We are very grateful from Shelby, too from Canada, a fellow Canadian. She says, "OMG, Kendra and Christine are hilarious. I love how fun they are, and I often find myself laughing out loud. They provide a ton of valuable education on so many important topics. They make marketing fun. I love you, ladies, so much and I anxiously await for Wednesdays so I can get the latest episode. Thank you so much for helping me grow my business." Oh my gosh.
Christine Hanse: Oh, if it's just to see both of our faces go like huge smiley face from space, this is worth it on its own to write a review, literally. We're purring away here.
Kendra Perry: We are. You just boosted our egos so much. That's great that you're laughing because that's what we want. [crosstalk 00:02:07]
Christine Hanse: We need some boosting, Kendra, for real.
Kendra Perry: We need some ego-boosting always.
Christine Hanse: That's great.
Kendra Perry: That's exactly what we want. We want you to laugh, we want you to learn because marketing and functional health aren't always the most sexy topics. We try to make it sexy over here, right?
Christine Hanse: Absolutely. That's why I'm wearing the makeup today and no pants, so there you go. [crosstalk 00:02:31]
Kendra Perry: Because we're in such different time zones, Christine's in Europe. I'm in Canada. I'm just waking up so I'm always like, "Err, it's the morning. I need my coffee." You're always so glammed up. You got your nice earrings, and your hair is beautiful. It's just a top polarizing.
Christine Hanse: Yeah, energy was dropped. By the time I put my top, I was like, "Yeah." That's it.
Kendra Perry: It always counts anyways over [crosstalk 00:02:56].
Christine Hanse: Anyways, it's going to be a great episode, as always. You can always head over to our website where you can also read the transcript to have a video with our beautiful faces. Come and visit us over on Instagram. Kendra is walking the chisels out of Instagram stories. It's hilarious. We both discovered that we have way too much time on our hands to play around with it. You laugh. It's fun. It's super fun. Anyway though, both of us got into this. I have my podcast. Actually, it was pretty soon when I started my second business, Sleep Like A Boss. I launched a podcast really, really quickly. It actually became pretty big out. I don't know why really. There are so many things in my business. I didn't know why. Podcast and for me and for Kendra, it's just something that we love listening to. I listened to lots of them, but I have to say it was essential when I started my business.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I'm a podcast fan. I'm always listening to podcasts. Anytime, I'm walking or moving and before bed at night, I actually listened to true crime podcasts and legal podcasts. That's what leads me to sleep at night, murder and legal proceedings. It's funny little piece of information about me. I'm super twisted in the brain, but we're not talking about true crime podcast. We're gonna talk about some of our favorite business and marketing podcast, plus a few of the functional health podcasts that both of us listen to. I mean, I love podcasts because there's so much easier to consume than video, right? I don't have time to watch video. I almost never watch it. If I'm not working on my computer, I'm up and I'm moving around. I'm doing shit, right? That's why I love podcast. You can learn so much. So much of my knowledge in business and marketing is actually from a lot of the podcasts I listened to.
Christine Hanse: I found it was a sense of community for some reason. When I started out, I didn't know who to talk to yet. At that time, that's actually my first suggestion. It's the format has changed quite a bit. At the time, when I started out, it was really coincidence. I don't remember how I got to them, but it's the Being Boss podcast.
Kendra Perry: Who does that one?
Christine Hanse: Two ladies, it's fantastic. It's very much aimed at creatives. Then, at the time, they had a Facebook group too, The Being Boss Facebook group. I think it's through the Facebook group that I found the podcast. It grew so big. Actually, they closed it down at some point because it was just too big. That was not where they wanted to have their energy. The format has changed a little bit, but I really loved it because you had sound business advice, but in such a fun way. I laughed out loud so many times. Actually, Emily and Kathleen, the two gals who are on the podcast really remind me a little bit of us in terms of just laughing and being very honest natured.
Christine Hanse: I really admired them because they took their very real as to the struggles as well. That moment when sometimes you have to stare into the abyss. It's just the entrepreneurial journey. It's a very, very, real, lot of tips, fun. They also have super interesting guests on their podcast. It was actually a sleep expert at some point. What was her name. Oh, right. It's me. I was on that too.
Kendra Perry: Famous plug.
Christine Hanse: I know totally. It was quite a big deal. I just got into it because a friend of ours that are meant just introduced us. At the time I was talking about baby sleep too, and Kathleen wasn't sleeping because her kid is as old as mine. Se she still had sleep issues. It's still a really great podcast. That's the first one I listened to. It makes me feel less alone in this world in kind of, "Oh, this is what an entrepreneur actually does." I really loved it. That's my first suggestion.
Kendra Perry: That's awesome. Yeah, it's so true because when you're working from home, when you're working alone, especially if you're new to being an entrepreneur, you don't realize that there is a community of people out there in the world. Maybe not in your town or in your city, but there's a lot of us out there just like you. That community is super important because it's very isolating sometimes doing what we do.
Christine Hanse: All right. Kendra, all yours.
Kendra Perry: I'm gonna actually start with talking about The Goal Digger Podcast, not the gold digger podcast, but that might be interesting too. Well, this is the Goal Digger Podcast. You guys might be familiar with Jenna Kutcher. She's a wedding photographer turned online marketing expert. I really love her podcast. I mean, she makes me laugh because she's super American, very, very American in the nicest way. She's just super positive, super happy, optimistic. She loves to go to church, and she loves all those American. [crosstalk 00:08:00] I love American. I think they're fantastic, but she's just ... I listened because sometimes it's just she's so optimistic and almost so cheesy. That being said, her podcast episodes are super actionable, right?
Kendra Perry: I often listen to her episodes, even when they don't have a lot to do with me, even when she's talking about a topic that maybe doesn't really make sense for me and my business, but just the information in it is so good. It's so actionable. All her episodes, I think she just crushes that. If you wanna learn about Instagram, or email marketing, or being vulnerable, she covers all those topics. She's also a really good one to follow on Instagram because she's done a really good job with building her Instagram following. She has a massive following, but she has very different topics that she talks about.
Kendra Perry: She has the online business, but she also shares a lot about positive body image, right? She posts a lot of photos of her in her underwear and her bikini. She's a very beautiful curvy woman, and I love that. She's probably multiple different audiences, but she's very good at being vulnerable in sharing herself, which is very important in today's marketing world. She's definitely an inspiration.
Christine Hanse: That's great. I absolutely love it. Perfect. You have to know that I told Kendra that I thought she was very good at piano when we met. She was so flattered. [crosstalk 00:09:21].
Kendra Perry: I was super flattered. I was like, "You can have your feed. Oh, my God. I'm just a small-town Canada girl. This is so great." She talks like that. Maybe she's so American. I was like, "You're such a darling."
Christine Hanse: All right. My second one, I really have to say I don't listen to podcast that regularly. Those are literally the ones that I have on my subscription library here, but I did listen to all of them. It's actually a podcast that belongs to an app. The app is called You Need A Budget or YNAB, Y-N-A-B, You Need A Budget. It's a budgeting app. It's changed my life. I'm ignoring it at the moment. Come on. I always love to fill it up when money comes in.
Kendra Perry: The app is called You Need A Budget.
Christine Hanse: Yes, the app is called You Need A Budget. You can use it on your computer and on your phone. It's really helping you to budget and to get a grip on your finances.
Kendra Perry: Oh, yeah. That's awesome.
Christine Hanse: Really good. It's really, really, really good. They have a matching podcast that obviously talks about the content of the app. It also really talks about what can you do in order to prepare for tax returns. He talks about ... He is basically the CEO from YNAB. He also talks about the company and the challenges they go through, which I think is interesting for any startup or any company whatsoever. They also talk about stories. They have people who were in massive debt and how they use YNAB, obviously, to get out of it. Even if it's success stories, you always learn a lot about it. I just think it's so important that we tackle our finances and not ignore them. I do right now. I really have to face the music.
Christine Hanse: It's a good thing. Also, goals, got money goals, anything that has to do with basically finances. It's just really down to earth. It's super short. Each episode is really short. I just like it because we need to, yeah, we need to, I don't know, take control of our finances. Not be scared of all of these topics. Whether use that or another budgeting app, it doesn't matter. I just think that advice is really good. It's very, very down to earth. You don't run a business if you don't make money in the end.
Kendra Perry: It's the less sexy part of being an entrepreneur, but we do need to be very involved in our finances. I feel sometimes health professionals, health coaches, are the worst offenders for feeling icky and weird about money and ignoring it. Just feeling overwhelmed by it, not wanting to deal with it, maybe pushing it aside, or just feeling like it's gross. If you wanna be successful and not go into debt, you need to be very involved in your finances.
Christine Hanse: I'm super, super proud that I'm not in debt. I don't wanna be ... Sometimes just a little bit overdraft, but I don't have any credit or anything. [crosstalk 00:12:08]
Kendra Perry: Yeah, totally. I actually did my own bookkeeping up until two months ago. For almost five years in business, I did all my own books. Eventually, it just got to the point where it's like, "I can't do this anymore. This is ridiculous. Why am I doing this?" I got a fantastic bookkeeper, but I was always very involved. I knew exactly where my money was going, where my expenses, how much I was making. I was very much involved in that process. I think that helped.
Christine Hanse: I really wasn't didn't have, really didn't have.
Kendra Perry: That's not for everyone. I'm pretty good with numbers. I don't love them, but I very much I'm a bit controlling with my money. It was really important for me to do it myself. Now, when my bookkeeper hands over my monthly report, I know exactly what I'm looking at. I know, I can actually pick out if she's made mistakes or something was missed because I know exactly what I'm looking at.
Christine Hanse: Wow.
Kendra Perry: I think that was important for me. I mean, maybe not for everyone. For a lot of people, that might be the first thing they outsource, right? They might outsource their bookkeeping.
Christine Hanse: I think some of it is you have to do on your own, and it just takes discipline. It's just a habit like everything else. It just keeping track. I'm much more flowy, but that can get me into trouble. I actually have to force myself to be very disciplined with it, but it's fun in the end. The app is super easy to use too. Definitely something I would recommend.
Kendra Perry: The app is You Need A Budget, and the podcast is called when?
Christine Hanse: You Need A Budget too?
Kendra Perry: You Need a Budget too, okay, so both are the same. Okay, cool. Awesome. All right. The next one I wanted to bring up. This is another marketing one. It's called the Art Of Paid Traffic. The host is Rick Mulready. I really love this podcast because he does these quick tips. A lot of it is based around paid traffic, paid ads. He's definitely your Facebook ads experts. If you're running Facebook ads, definitely subscribe to his podcast. I don't listen to a lot of the longer episodes, although there's really great episodes. He does case studies. He'll do various case studies on people with different types of businesses and how they doubled their ROI with this much ad spend.
Kendra Perry: He'll go through all different people in different businesses, but he does these quick tip episodes once a week. They're really good for just staying up to date with what's going on in paid traffic, with what's going on in Facebook ads. Again, anytime Facebook brings in new metrics or they're switching things up on the ads platform, the ads dashboard, he'll inform you and tell you what's up.
Christine Hanse: That's golden. I logged into my Facebook dashboard, apps dashboard for the first time in probably eight months. It's like, "What?" I'm lost. I need to start from scratch. I'm like, "Oh god. I don't know."
Kendra Perry: They're constantly updating it. That's how I stay up to date, because I'm not gonna be the one to get on support with Facebook and talk to them and read the reports and tasks. He does that stuff. He keeps you informed about it. Actually, the other day, I learned that ... If you guys run Facebook ads, the relevant score is being taken away. The relevant score is the score that you get out of 10 that tells you how relevant your ad is. If you have a really low relevance score, it's not performing well. You should shut it off, versus having a ... The thing, the issue with that metric is it doesn't tell you why that's not working. You're like, "Okay, my relevant score is low, but is it the copy? Is that the image? Is it the landing page? Is it my targeting?" You have no idea.
Christine Hanse: It's like being dumped, but you don't know why.
Kendra Perry: You're like, "Was it me?" [crosstalk 00:15:41]
Christine Hanse: ... awesome sex too much for you?
Kendra Perry: Was I not good in bed or something? What's going on? You have no idea why. Obviously, I'm great in bed. That was never why he broke up with me. What they're doing is they're replacing the relevance score with five different metrics that's actually gonna determine why.
Christine Hanse: That's good.
Kendra Perry: Why your ads are not working? That's the stuff that I learned from that podcasts. It's the Art Of Paid Traffic. Yeah, it's a good one for those quick tips. It just helps you stay up to date with Facebook ads, but also what's going on with LinkedIn ads, or Pinterest ads. He covers it all. It is good because Facebook ads are expensive these days. You really have to know what you're doing, but whereas there's a lot of opportunity and other types of ads out there right now. You have different platforms. That is one of my favorites.
Christine Hanse: I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. All right. The next one that I haven't because I love public speaking, it's called The Speaker Lab Podcast with Grant Baldwin. It's basically everything that has to do with speaking. How can you get booked on different stages? How can you create an event around your speaking gigs? He has lots of different speakers come in, or people who, the event planners, what they are looking for, how you create the speech, how you handle those, all of that like stuff. Basically everything that has to do with speaking. My plan for this year is really to have more speaking in my business.
Christine Hanse: I'm doing that right now. I'm focusing on that even further. I have a German-speaking speaker agency, and I'm pitching some US ones as well soon. It's definitely part of my business model. I like listening to him. I find some people have a really nice pace as well. It's one of these podcasts that when I just need to drive and the not mellow, but just have company, I just listened to him. I like it a lot. That's a good one to listen to.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love how much you're bringing public speaking into your business. I think it's really powerful. You're everywhere. You're famous. You're my famous friend who's been featured in all the big publications. You're on TV, no big deal, whatever. I think you're so cool.
Christine Hanse: Yeah, totally.
Kendra Perry: It's not a big deal.
Christine Hanse: It's my goal. I love doing it. I'm hustling a little bit more at the moment to get that off the ground, but he has really good tips there so cool. If you are into speaking, I definitely suggest that.
Kendra Perry: What was the name of it?
Christine Hanse: The Speaker Lab.
Kendra Perry: The Speaker Lab.
Christine Hanse: With Grant Baldwin.
Kendra Perry: Make sure I will kill. Make sure I'll get that in the show notes so that you guys can find these podcasts. The next one I want to talk about. This is one of my favorites because I just love the host so much. She's a fellow Canadian. Her name is Sunny Lenarduzzi. We actually saw her speak at Social Media Marketing. [crosstalk 00:18:43].
Christine Hanse: Kendra's eyes turned into the little heart emoji, the emoji with the heart eyes. That's Kendra when she talks about Sunny.
Kendra Perry: I know, I'm a fan girl. I'm one of Sunny's fan girls, for sure. At Social Media Marketing, I was like, "Oh my god, it's Sunny. Oh my god." I just think she's great. She lives in Vancouver. She's a fellow Canadian, but she also crushes it. She's definitely your go-to for YouTube. She's a YouTube expert. I've taken her YouTube For Bosses' course and it's fantastic. Really, really good. She makes amazing YouTube videos. Her podcast, The Sunny Show is actually great. She has that same style, nice flow. She's really relatable.
Kendra Perry: She's kinda nerdy. She laughs and keeps it light, but she gives away really valuable information about not only YouTube, but all kinds of different. She's really good for Instagram. She will talk about email marketing. She has all the topics. Then she has some pretty amazing guests on there as well. I really love that podcast. I've learned a lot from her. Obviously, just I'm her fan girl. It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing when you're just like, "Oh my God, you're so great."
Christine Hanse: That's really cute, very [crosstalk 00:19:58].
Kendra Perry: She has a great podcast. I always like to give a shout out to my fellow Canadian entrepreneurs.
Christine Hanse: Absolutely, you should. I have one more that I like. I don't listen to it religiously, but I do listen from time to time. It's called She's Got Moxie with Joy Chudacoff. I actually have an interesting story about that one, because for some reason, I have no idea why, I saw one of her posts in LinkedIn. It was just an image promoting an episode that she had with a woman called Laura McHolm from North Star Luxury moving. I just thought, "Oh, that's interesting for me," because being connected with the luxury industry is exactly my people. I clicked on it and listen to the episode. I really loved it. She was talking to this founder of North Star moving.
Christine Hanse: Actually, afterwards, I reached out to North Star moving because I was wondering if I could collaborate, and we did. Now, I am in their program as a part of if one of their clients wants to book a session with me. Through them, I've been published on Yahoo Finance, and in a really great real estate magazine. I probably work with them further in the future.
Kendra Perry: Awesome.
Christine Hanse: This is just a really random story how things can happen. Never be afraid to reach out. I find here's my PR genie going off, opportunity, opportunity. If you hear someone on a podcast and you can see that there's potential to collaborate or just if you like them, just write them an email and tell them. People love it. This is just one example. Now I have my foot in the door with a prime A celebrity rental company, moving company. Now I have my foot in the door there. It's just really fantastic. I like her podcast too. She's Got Moxie is really the great title because that's what it's about. It's about female entrepreneurs in different businesses, successful businesses sharing the journey and the tips and everything. It's just nice. It's very American too, in a way, but I like it. I really like it.
Kendra Perry: That's awesome. I think we definitely need to do an episode about working with brands and collaborations and reaching out. That's definitely something, a topic that I am very interested in these days. We did learn a little bit about it when we were at the conference together. That's definitely something we should put on our list for an episode in the future. Cool. All right. I have a couple that I wanted to talk about that are more related to health. The first one I wanted to mention is Chris Masterjohn's podcast, Mastering Nutrition. Chris Masterjohn has a PhD in nutrition.
Kendra Perry: He's super. He's smart as a whip. Super, super smart, super nerdy. His longer episodes are super intense. If you don't have a good background in nutrition, functional health, and you're just not so nerdy, love learning, you'll be like, "This is intense." He calls it I think Chris Masterjohn light episodes, which I like the light episodes. He'll spend about 10 minutes talking about a specific topic. If you wanna learn about nutrition, different vitamins, he has all these little light episodes on how to manage your zinc status, your vitamin A status, your vitamin B2 status, whatever, where he goes through. He talks about the best places to get the vitamin from. If you're gonna supplement, what are the best forums according to research. He's very research-minded.
Kendra Perry: He's someone who actually spends a lot of time reviewing and leafing through what the available research is on the topic he's discussing. Then he sums it up in a pretty nice way. It's a really good podcast, if you want to really up your game with nutrition, if you're doing a lot of work with your clients with nutrition and recommending nutritional supplements, that sort of thing, a really good resource. I really love that one. Then the other one I love is called The Energy Blueprint podcast. That's Ari Whitten. He's another super nerdy health researcher. He's one of the guys, again, who's boots on the ground deep into the research, reading it all. He does really good review sessions on his podcast, where he'll go through some topic.
Kendra Perry: For example, he did one. I think it was about a year ago, but it was a really good one about adrenal fatigue because everyone's talking about adrenal fatigue. He's like, "Look, if you go on PubMed, there's actually not a single study on adrenal fatigue." There's actually one. It basically says that adrenal fatigue doesn't exist. He went through. He started looking at, "Okay, well, adrenal fatigue, there's no research on that but there's a lot of research on cortisol and its relationship to fatigue." He just basically goes through. He reviews all the research for and against, because basically, people are diagnosing adrenal fatigue based on cortisol levels.
Christine Hanse: Yeah, that's bullshit.
Kendra Perry: It is. That was a really good episode where he actually goes through it. You can actually talk about these topics with confidence, because maybe you're not the person who has time to go through and read all the nerdy research, but someone who will sum it up nicely for you, and tell you what's there. He comes at it from a really non-biased perspective. Plus, he has lots of great guests on a lot of topics that not a lot of other podcasts are talking about, which I love. It's a little bit more cutting-edge, bio hacker info, which I love. I'm such a nerdy bio hacker. That one's really a good one too.
Christine Hanse: Perfect. I love it.
Kendra Perry: I have one of the devices. I tell my boyfriend that when we're building a house right now, I'm like, "We're gonna have a room that's multiple different types of saunas. We'll have an oxygen set up."
Christine Hanse: Oh god.
Kendra Perry: We're gonna have a float tank. He's like, "Oh, my fuck. Are you serious?" I'm like, "Oh, yeah, bio hacker room, infrared sauna deluxe. Oh, my god can't wait."
Christine Hanse: That's there. I cannot wait to visit you. You have to have it all set up and then I just test drive it maybe.
Kendra Perry: Totally, we're gonna have an outdoor natural swimming pool. We're gonna have so many fun things that you'll never wanna leave. You'll just live in my basement forever.
Christine Hanse: I said, I don't really live in your basement now if I could enter. I'm just go, and hi.
Kendra Perry: Hello, I'm here. I'm here to stay. One day you'll have to come visit and it'll be so-
Christine Hanse: I will. I will. It's in my schedule in my fiction schedule. No, it is. I really want to. We just need to look at something.
Kendra Perry: We just need to work it out. We'll definitely go spend a couple days at Sparkling Hill, the retreat I was [crosstalk 00:26:30]. It's very, very nice.
Christine Hanse: Yes, totally.
Kendra Perry: Very, very nice. All right. I have one last one that I wanted to mention. This is actually another. I'm giving a big shout out to all the Canadians today. Lori Kennedy's podcast's The Business of Becoming Podcast. Lori Kennedy is based out of Toronto. She was a health coach turned business coach. Her big focus is launching programs, and turning one-on-one services into group programs, which I think is what a lot of us ultimately will want to do. Although, some of us love one-on-one. I know, Christine, you're really focused on one-on-one. I'm now pushing over multi-group programs. She's really good. She talks about a lot of more of the basic stuff.
Kendra Perry: I would say, it's best for someone who's newer, newer health coach, newer business owner, but she covers a lot of really good topics. She's very approachable and very actionable. She gives a lot of really good actionable tips, which is the most important thing to me. I love to listen to podcasts and come out being like, "I learned this one thing, and this thing is gonna help me. This is gonna help."
Christine Hanse: That's amazing.
Kendra Perry: I'm a big fan of her podcast, Business Of Becoming. We also wanna get her on the podcast.
Christine Hanse: Yes, we do. We do. Prudent. I actually thought of one last one. It's called Join Up Dots by David Ralph. He's been in the business for a long time. I've just talked to him today. His philosophy's Join Up Dots by Steve Jobs when he has a speech about all the dots that you have in the past, they will make sense in the future. They are the dots of your future, actually. You could build the dots in your future if you didn't have the ones from your past that's joining up the dots. He actually had a severe burn out and completely went underground in his personal life as well for two years. He was very close to a stroke, and really harsh wake up call. We just talked today.
Christine Hanse: A couple of weeks ago, he resurfaced basically on his Facebook account and just like, "Okay, world, I'm back." He's gonna touch with me today because he wants to re-record an episode. We had one in the past, and he wants to do a new one because he just really understood, for your business, you need to have fun is important. Money is important. Health is important. Time is important. Mindset is important. He's restructuring his main topics a little bit. I like it. He has some very impressive people as guests on there. It's all about joining up the dots. How did you get where you are, and what does it mean for your future in a way? He's hilarious. He's this British guy and shamelessly flirting a lot of the time. Hilarious. I'm really looking forward to this episode, but I'm already blushing. It's hilarious.
Kendra Perry: Oh, awesome.
Christine Hanse: He's just got British shut up.
Kendra Perry: Awesome.
Christine Hanse: There's a lot of wisdom behind, and a lot of love. He's very successful with his podcast, super successful. He also has a podcasting school. It's just a lot of wisdom on a page, basically. Have a look at that one to Join Up Dots.
Kendra Perry: Join Up Dots, I love that. I love the dots of your past and how they form your future. Because when you're in it, you don't really maybe see how things getting through and things lining up. Eventually, you have the story, right? You're like, "That's my story. All these things happened, and that's how I got here." But when you're in it, you're like, "I don't know what the fuck is happening."
Christine Hanse: I know. Fuck you, dot.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, again. It wouldn't be an episode of 360 Health Biz podcast without a few f bombs, right?
Christine Hanse: Totally. I think that was a lot of wisdom here I love for you guys to check out. If you like them, let them know that we send you. Love in the podcasting world is always appreciated, I reckon.
Kendra Perry: I think so. Guys, if you're listening right now, take a screenshot of this episode on your phone. Share it to your stories, tag 360 Health Biz Podcast and we will share it back to ours. We are just loving the Instagram Stories these days. We're both obsessed.
Christine Hanse: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:30:45] Kendra.
Kendra Perry: We went from basic pitch Instagram stories to pretty sweet stories. I think we're crushing it. You guys should check out our stories.
Christine Hanse: We just figured out. I finally got the music badge. I had to ask for it. Can you imagine?
Kendra Perry: Oh, really?
Christine Hanse: I don't have honestly [crosstalk 00:31:01] not everyone on Instagram has it. There's no rhyme or reason as to who has it and who doesn't. Then I just asked for it. In the app, I asked for help. You can send a message. I was like, "Dudes, I'm missing this badge." Then three days later, I had it.
Kendra Perry: Oh, that's awesome. I feel like you never hear back from them, but there's somebody on the other end who's listening.
Christine Hanse: They do.
Kendra Perry: They're there.
Christine Hanse: I need to talk to you.
Kendra Perry: They're there. They'll never acknowledge that they spoke with you, but they're there.
Christine Hanse: No.
Kendra Perry: Well, I'm gonna have to ask for that too. I don't know. I've not used music in my Instagram Stories yet. That's pretty [crosstalk 00:31:35]
Christine Hanse: But you don't listen to music. I love-
Kendra Perry: You know I do. I have a Spotify account. I have a Spotify account.
Christine Hanse: That's so funny. That's one thing I remember when you were like, "I don't listen to music." I was like, "What?"
Kendra Perry: I know.
Christine Hanse: I listen to music all day.
Kendra Perry: I think I was exaggerating a little. I do listen to music. I just mostly listen to podcasts, but I do listen to music especially when I'm just cruising. No pants in my house, I usually have music on.
Christine Hanse: Yes, well, I love using them from Instagram stories. Have a look at our accounts. Follow us on there. It's a good mix of wisdom, knowledge, fun, nonsense. Today, you'll see me without pants, actually. That alone should be worth a check in and giving a five-star review to this podcast, right? [crosstalk 00:32:24] There's a little skin in here.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Well, it was fun as always hanging out with you, Christine. I hope you have a good evening. I'm gonna just start my day right now. Probably have another cup of coffee. We will see you guys again in two weeks.
Christine Hanse: Two weeks. Bye, everyone.
Storytelling is not longer just about Cinderella and her glass slipper. No, storytelling is an integral part of your business and influencing your business’s brand. As Jamie Jensen shares in this episode, storytelling is the most human and natural thing you can do for your business. Find out how to use your story to develop your brand and where to use it. You don’t have to have just one story – you can be extremely successful with mini stories and multiple different stories. Tune in to learn about the building blocks to a good story…you’ll want to have a pen and paper handy for this one!
We cannot stop gushing over our amazingly talented guest in this episode. Jamie Jensen is an award-winning screenwriter, business strategist, and the creator of Story School. To date, she’s helped over 700 entrepreneurs increase their sales by up to 900% with the power of effective storytelling. Prior to helping business leaders connect deeply with their audiences through copy, video, and talks, Jamie worked in story development in Hollywood, assisting writers in both film & television. Jamie is the co-director and executive producer of the feature film “Hannah Has a Ho-Phase,” which won her the “Best Feature Writer” award at La Femme Film Festival in 2013, and she most recently completed her 9th feature-length screenplay.
Connect with Jamie Jensen
Get Jamie’s free All About Your About Page workbook at howtowriteanaboutpage.com
Grab our Ultimate Health Coaching Tool Kit complete with our top picks for platforms plus our sample contract and intake form: http://360healthbizpodcast.com
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Kendra Perry: Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I'm Kendra Perry and I'm hanging out with my incredibly sexy and amazing and hilarious-
Christine: Totally, guys. I totally feel it.
Kendra Perry: ... cohost. Christine's here with her beer because she says it's after 5:00am and she [inaudible 00:00:27].
Christine: Okay. Well, now I can just have a sip right? Because I was going to do it on the low key but okay, fine.
Kendra Perry: You know what? Just go for it. Let's just be yourself.
Christine: It's 5:00 going 6:00. That's totally acceptable in Europe. I don't know but ...
Kendra Perry: I think it's totally acceptable. It's like 8:00 AM here, but, you know, it's all good. I've got my coffee. You got your beer. So-
Christine: See? There you go.
Kendra Perry: ... this is how we [inaudible 00:00:44]. Awesome. So guys, we have a really good show for you today. We're going to be talking about copywriting and storytelling. As you guys know, we were just at Social Media Marketing World in San Diego about a month ago now. A big theme of the conference was storytelling. Everyone was talking about how important it is to weave your story into your brand and into your message and we loved it. We actually did a couple of storytelling workshops.
Kendra Perry: After we got this message I was like, "Okay, we need to get someone on for storytelling" and I thought of Jamie Jensen because she is an award-winning screenwriter, business strategist and the creator of Story School. To date, she's helped over 700 entrepreneurs increase their sales by up to 900%-
Kendra Perry: ... with the power of effective storytelling. That's pretty crazy.
Christine: That's an impressive number, dude.
Kendra Perry: Prior to helping business leaders connect deeply with their audiences through copy, video and talks, Jamie worked in story development in Hollywood assisting writers in both film and television. She is the co-director and executive producer of the feature film Hannah Has A Ho-Phase. Interesting. I'm like, what's that about? Which won her the Best Feature Writer Award at La Femme Film Festival in 2013. She most recently completed her ninth feature-length screenplay. Jamie, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.
Jamie Jensen: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Kendra Perry: So tell me, what is Hannah Has A Ho-Phase. What's a ho phase? I'm so intrigued.
Jamie Jensen: It's a phase-
Christine: A ho phase or a whole face? Like it's just [inaudible 00:02:15]-?
Jamie Jensen: No. Like it's a phase when you're being a ho.
Christine: Oh I ... You know what? I understood she has a whole face. Like a whole W-H ... I was like, "Well what if you don't have a whole face? Do you have a half a face? Like what does that mean?" So, okay, got it. I'm on your level now.
Jamie Jensen: You know what?
Christine: We've all had a-
Jamie Jensen: It's a raunchy, romantic comedy so that's what it's about.
Kendra Perry: I think that's fantastic. I had a ho phase once so ... I've had a couple actually so-
Jamie Jensen: Oh dude [crosstalk 00:02:43].
Kendra Perry: ... I would probably really relate to this. Whoo hoo.
Christine: Who hasn't had a ho phase? I mean really?
Kendra Perry: So I-
Christine: Very poor people I guess. Very ... I don't know. People who are very stuck up.
Kendra Perry: No it's some such an interesting bio, Jamie. I love how you did the storytelling and storywriting for Hollywood. How did you transition into working with creatives and entrepreneurs online?
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, I mean I still do all of it to be honest. It wasn't like, oh, I ... It's more of just adding. It's adding more of what I do and taking a lot of the expertise that I have, not just from studying storytelling in like a formal way, but also from, you know, the business of film, which is ... My masters is in producing and so it's very much the business of content. So you have to look at marketing as a piece of the picture and a piece of, you know, everything that you're creating. You have to be asking yourself like, "How is this marketable?" As you're developing yourself as a writer, as a screenwriter in Hollywood, you're always looking at like, “Well, what's your brand? What's your voice? What makes you marketable? What makes you an enticing package?”
Jamie Jensen: When we're looking at people who are marketing themselves online, whether they're doing a lifestyle business and it's ... they're the brand, you kind of have to ask the same questions.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Jamie Jensen: So it really wasn't ... It was really a natural transition for me to start supporting entrepreneurs. The way that it happened ... and what's funny is my dad was an entrepreneur, so I actually grew up with like learning about sales and learning about direct response copy and learning about a lot of the stuff that I ended up applying to my business and then to other people's businesses.
Jamie Jensen: But really the way that I got started was, I was writing for everyone around me. You know, people were coming to me asking for help with their website copy. I was that go-to person that, "Oh well I have to write a bio on my website. I have to write a this. I have to write a that." So I just kind of became that go-to person for people in my circles. It eventually dawned on me that that was probably the business I should be starting.
Christine: That's a lot of money in there. Like [inaudible 00:04:44] it's like something where I don't skip on. Like where I don't really don't really care what the price tag is to some extent. It's so key. So I'm really excited to hear, you know, how you teach this as well because I find to some extent you can have talent or you can't, but it's ... So it's really going to be interesting to see what your main takeaways are for our listeners today as far as you can reveal your secrets. So it's going to good. So yeah, let's go ahead.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Well I'd love to know like I know our listeners are probably thinking like, "Why do I need a story? I have a business." Why is it important to have a story in business?
Jamie Jensen: So storytelling really is, and this is funny because this is one of the reasons why I'm obsessed with story and why it's been like my nerd obsession since I was a teenager really. It's the most human thing. It's completely natural. It's completely human and everything that you ultimately end up learning about a story when you really study it is how it speaks to the human condition.
Jamie Jensen: The reason that storytelling is so important in marketing and especially the way that you choose to engineer and tell your stories, is that it really is a bridge that connects one human to another human. When you're able to not just communicate your experience, your expertise, what you've been through, build evidence ... You know stories are how we communicate meaning, are how we communicate lessons. They're how we ... Really, it's the difference between having a really smart quote on Instagram where someone's like, "Oh my God, totally. Like, just let it go" right? Versus like watching Frozen and understanding what that really means, right? So it's like, it's a different emotional experience that allows a person to actually integrate what they're learning and make it part of themselves.
Jamie Jensen: So you could tell someone, "Oh, well, I help clients achieve XYZ" blah, blah, blah. So for example, for me, oh yeah, I've had a client. Like I helped my clients increase their sales by up to 900%", but what anchors that in reality is me telling you the story of my client, Lauren, and like how she created a program herself and how she wrote all of her own copy and how she had a hungry audience, but what she was doing wasn't communicating to them appropriately. So through the process we worked on together, which I'm not going to go into deep detail, but that's how we ended up increasing her sales. So really you're humanizing an experience and making it relevant to the person who's paying attention.
Jamie Jensen: The big reason that I'm obsessed with story and also why it's so important is like that's about emotional resonance. So where ... It's like ... I call it like you're communing with your audience because you're ... because they're seeing themselves in you and they're feeling themselves in you. It's not just like, "Oh, I want to achieve what they achieved." It's, "Oh, I can feel what they felt, like both the pain and the victory." Everyone wants to experience that for themselves. So when you can have that experience and really demonstrate results to somebody and possibilities to somebody in an emotional way, like that's when it really becomes real for them.
Christine: Totally. Makes Sense. So let me ask you a question because that's something that I struggled with and we've talked about this before, Kendra and I, which is that, we all have like ... I think in high school you even learn the typical hero's journey of the struggle and then the victory and climax and dah dah dah. What if you don't ... and for me it was an issue for a long time. It's that I don't have the typical hero's journey, right? So my niche is sleep. I've always been a good sleeper. Right? So that's ... It wasn't my personal struggle per se that I got into the business that I have. It's not like for example, a cancer survivor who managed to get much better through nutrition or something like that. I know for a lot of health coaches, a lot of them do have the personal hero's journey. But what about those who came into this business for a completely different reason and who are probably like, "Oh yeah. This is not going to work for me because I don't have this story." What do you ...
Jamie Jensen: That's a great question and it's one that I love answering.
Christine: [inaudible 00:08:44].
Jamie Jensen: So the way that you use the hero's journey in marketing isn't about always telling your own hero's journey. Sometimes it is, and sometimes you have a story that works and functions and beautifully matches up like perfect puzzle pieces with your customer's journey mirroring your journey. However, the goal isn't about establishing that your story mirrors their story. The goal with telling your story is establishing your character and your place in their journey, which means that your job can be, to be the person who's been down the road they want to walk down, but your job can also be the person who's the exact compliment and opposite of them. So your example is great because you're like, "I've always been a good sleeper".
Jamie Jensen: But another example I love to use is like, let's say that you help people design and develop websites and you're very tech savvy. Your clients are people who don't want to touch the backend of a WordPress website to save their life. Like it scares them. They're afraid they're going to break something. It's just not their genius zone. They're really good at what they do. They're not good at tech.
Jamie Jensen: Your journey's never going to mirror their journey. Your place in their story is helping them get where they want to go by being the expert they need to get there. So when you choose to tell your story, I'm sure that there are stories you could tell about how awkward it could be, because this is also just like a normal human thing. You don't feel like you belong because maybe you're the one person who is good at something that everyone else around you isn't, and that establishes who you are to everyone else who needs your support.
Jamie Jensen: So I always say, and I always ... I actually have a training. I don't even know where it is right now. Like I don't know if I have it prerecorded anywhere, about the four business stories that every business needs because most businesses have a version of, "I'm exactly like you. I've been exactly where you've been", but the other side of that is like, "I'm actually completely different from you and that's a great thing because I'm going to be able to help you with stuff that you can't help yourself with alone."
Christine: Perfect. Yeah, that makes total sense. You know? I think sometimes you just need a little bit of help with that because you're so close to it whenever you do write your story that having a framework or having someone who can just see what you don't see is super, super helpful, I reckon.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah. I think a lot of our people ... I think a lot of people in general, not you Christine, but a lot of people get into health coaching, the health industry because of their own stories. I think there's a lot of people out there in our audience who probably do have really amazing personal stories they can weave into it, but I feel like ... The thing I hear a lot is, people get into health coaching because yeah, they had their own health struggle, but they're not necessarily out the other end yet. You know what I mean? Like they're still in it.
Christine: [inaudible 00:11:32].
Kendra Perry: So I feel like people are scared to share it because it's not like, "Yeah, I have this personal health struggle, but now I'm good. I feel great. I have energy. I'm awesome." Like they're still in the depths of it. They still feel like shit. They still have whatever issue and I think that can be pretty powerful. What do you think? Like even if you haven't come out the other end, like that can probably be a really good connecting point too.
Jamie Jensen: I think so. I think that that's a perfectionism problem.
Kendra Perry: Right.
Jamie Jensen: I think that that's like a visibility problem and a perfectionism problem where you're afraid to just be real with your audience. You know, I think you can come along way in a journey and still not be where you want to go. The truth is that in life, that's really how it is. Like you can, "Oh I hit six figures in my business. Now I want to multiply that. Now I want to hit seven." Or, "Oh I ... " You know, whatever it is that you are looking at as external markers of results. Yes those things matter in marketing but the truth is that the purpose of your marketing story is to build that know, like and trust, you know, that love factor. It's to create that relationship development with your customer and for them to really feel like they know you.
Jamie Jensen: So my thing is like, be transparent. You know, the truth is that health isn't the type of thing where like we're done. Mental health and physical health, you're never done. You're never like, "Oh my God, I'm like the perfect statue of exactly what I want to be and I'm going to freeze time." Like, "This is my freeze frame." It's like health is something that we're constantly working on. It's not like ... I had a therapist in New York a few years ago and she's like, "You're never done. You're never like, 'Oh, all of my childhood wounds disappeared.'"
Kendra Perry: I'm healed.
Jamie Jensen: "Poof, they're gone. I eliminated them. I'm healed." I'm sorry. I know.
Christine: Unless you work with Jesus, it's like, I [inaudible 00:13:11].
Jamie Jensen: I mean-
Christine: Oh my God.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:13:14].
Jamie Jensen: Look, there are plenty of energy healers who are like, "I cleared it. It's gone forever." I'm like, "It's not ... That's not how the subconscious mind works, people."
Christine: No, no.
Jamie Jensen: That's fine, because you can always be improving. The truth is that if you don't take the step forward towards improving, then you're never really going to improve, like at all. But I do think that not sharing your story because you're not in perfect health is fine because no one's ever in complete perfect health. There's like actually no such thing. Yeah.
Christine: So tell us a little bit about how to use your story. So let's say that we have some listeners who are like, "Okay, I get it. It makes sense to tell my story. It's ultimately going to convert into [cashola 00:13:58] because people like me. They will trust me and hence they will finally sign up with me after stalking me for five years on my email list. But how do you-
Jamie Jensen: The long game strategy. This is long tail economics.
Christine: Just like so painful. Like how do you use it apart from let's say the obvious. So for me the obvious would be, okay, I work out of my story and then I have it on my website. Probably because I like video, I'd record it and I tell it that way. Probably have it in my copy on my website. How else can you use your story? What have you seen when working with people in ways that they've used, what they worked on with you and then kind of implemented it in different ways?
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, this is a great question. It's actually like, I've created a bit of a framework around this because I have people who do My Story School Program or who've come to me and they're like, "I know my story but I don't know how to use it and I don't know how to adapt it to platforms." So I'm just going to list off the platforms that I'm like, "These all need your story and the way you use your story in these platforms is going to be different for each platform." So obviously social media, your website, your About page. If you want to create a brand video script, I also highly recommend creating video scripts and shooting video for Facebook Ads, for funnels, written copy in your Facebook Ads? For sure. If you're going to do a talk, if you're going to build it into a book. Those are really ... I feel like those are the big ones. Speaking website, social media, book. Oh, and a webinar.
Kendra Perry: Webinar. Yeah.
Christine: So what would social media look like? So I would just be like, "Okay. I do one post" like ... Ugh, this is too cheesy. It grosses me out, but you know, you have the vulnerability posts, so I just go like. But it's ...
Kendra Perry: Disclaimer. Vulnerable share.
Christine: Yeah, [inaudible 00:15:47] like ... Eye roll.
Jamie Jensen: Why do you need to ... It's not. I want to read it less now actually.
Christine: That's as far as my imagination goes to how I would use this. So please [inaudible 00:16:00] this kind of space. Would you kind of chop it up? Or how do you do it? I mean Kendra is pretty good at this stuff too, in a way-
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:16:08].
Christine: ... and I know that you're stalking people who are very good at this, Kendra, too know. So I'm not very ... In that aspect, I don't know what I have, some story trauma or something, I just cannot see it. It's one of these things where my brain is just like trees. I don't see anything, you know? So how would you do that? How would you use it?
Jamie Jensen: It may be some story trauma. We can talk about that.
Kendra Perry: I love it. I love it.
Jamie Jensen: These things are real. So with social media it's a little bit different in how you decide to use your story because I think that you can actually tell the same story in like a hundred different ways and keep reinforcing it. One of the things that I tell people to do, and I talk about this in Story School is like, every story has little stories in it.
Jamie Jensen: So you can choose like ... You can choose a snippet, you can also take a snapshot and expand upon it. Like, let's say part of your story is like the moment, so the part of every story is like, "The moment I decided to shit needed to change." Right? So like you can say that in like two sentences when you're telling it any other place. But when you're telling it on social media, you can literally just take that moment and zoom, zoom in, right?
Jamie Jensen: So you're like, "I remember the moment that I decided shit needed to change. I was walking here. I was at a café. I went to a cafe with my friend. I was sitting. I remember the cafe looked like this. I remember ... " You know, it's like you get really into details and you expand upon a moment and you ... It really is this game of like time expanding and contracting depending on where in the chronological timeline of your story you're speaking to. So that's number one.
Jamie Jensen: Number two is with social media, it doesn't ... Like every ... You're going to have more than one story in your business. I think we get really obsessed with like, "This is my brand story." And the truth is that like-
Kendra Perry: I know.
Jamie Jensen: ... you need more than one, and you're not just going to have one and use one. You're going to have many. They're all going to relate to the topics in your business that you speak to that are important to you. So you know, let's say like self-care is a pillar of what you care about and what your brand values are. So you're going to have a lot of stories that relate to self-care. The core brand story work is there to really speak to what's the main thing that people need to know to understand what you do, why you're the best at what you do and why they should know, like, and trust you. Like that's your core. Who are you for them? That establishes that.
Jamie Jensen: Beyond that, like you can create a story bank. Part of the process of being a content creator is mining for stories in everyday life. So it's a little bit of both in that, you can use snippets of your brand story and expand upon them. You can take from other things that are happening in your life that relate back to the brand values that you stand for. That's usually what I would recommend.
Jamie Jensen: I think for some people it can be really intuitive and they can just create on the fly. For others, they need a bank. They need to work with someone to extract stories out of them and like give them a spreadsheet of like, "Listen, here's 20 stories that you can tell and you can repurpose them in different ways and you can tell them ... " You know, and quite honestly, if you had a bank of 20 stories on social media, people probably would stop noticing that you were telling the same story.
Christine: Oh yeah. [inaudible 00:19:18].
Jamie Jensen: Like they wouldn't notice by the time you got to 20 again, like number one happened again and they're ... They would just be like, "Wow, oh my gosh", because you're catching a new follower. You know, it's not.
Kendra Perry: Too.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah. Does that help? Does that make sense?
Christine: My eyes are like, you know, the heart or the star Emoji? It's like right here on a [inaudible 00:19:37] bank. I'm just like, cling. [inaudible 00:19:39].
Kendra Perry: Well, I love it, and it seems like what you're saying is like, it doesn't need to be this like crazy story. Like you could take small little things that happened in your life and turn them into something interesting that has maybe a lesson or, yeah, it relates back to the overall message that you're trying to tell. Right?
Christine: I just have to laugh because Kendra posted her cooler with all her food that she talked to.
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:20:01]. You know? [inaudible 00:20:01].
Christine: I was just like, "Oh, this stuff is delicious." And she's really good at what she does. She knows her shit, but it was just too hilarious seeing that cooler with all of the food.
Kendra Perry: Well, you know, this-
Christine: [crosstalk 00:20:16] it was like [crosstalk 00:20:17].
Kendra Perry: ... spa that I go to, they have a really expensive shitty restaurant. So I packed everything I needed in my cooler for like two days. But it's funny, everyone was like, "Oh my God, you're so healthy." I'm like, "Do you know that underneath the greens and the [inaudible 00:20:29] was four chocolate bars and like all this fucking shit crap food?" And everyone's like, "Oh my God, you're so healthy." I'm like, "Nah, I just packed a certain way."
Christine: It was really good [inaudible 00:20:41]. It was amazing [crosstalk 00:20:44].
Jamie Jensen: Strategic packing.
Christine: Totally. Very.
Kendra Perry: I'm like, "I'm so healthy", and then behind the scenes I'm stuffing like five chocolate bars in my face.
Christine: Yeah, I'm really getting into it. Like I try ... We went to a workshop at Social Media Marketing Worlds for Instagram Stories and both Kendra and I are totally flashing on it and I try to be more strategic about it now. So I literally have some days where I'll just prerecord. So I record moments and then I upload them all together in the evening. So really trying to have just a life into me. I don't quite manage to always tie it into my topic, I have to say maybe because my life doesn't quite revolve around it. Or maybe today, because today I literally didn't get out of bed cause I was just lazy, but that's not quite the same thing.
Christine: But I do find that these platforms are all pushing these dory kind of structures, you know, not to just do a one-off picture or just to do a one-off kind of video, but really to try and tie it in so that people can get to know you and that it's literally like a, yeah, like a script in a way. So what have you ... So particular to Instagram stories, have you had a client who for example said, "Look, I want to focus on that"? What have you found maybe that is great at working at that concept to also convert clients? Because in the end, it's all fun and games, but we really want to make money, right? So what are things where you said, "This is the golden ..." Not the golden ticket. We know that doesn't really exist but as close to.
Jamie Jensen: Really ... I mean social media is about developing relationships. So it's hard for me to say use conversion strategies on Instagram stories because I don't think it's about that. As far as far as storytelling techniques are concerned, it is pulling someone through a beginning, middle, and an end. So it's like, "Oh, I started cooking this, and here's all the different steps in the process." I think that process-oriented stories are probably the best thing to do on Instagram.
Kendra Perry: Yeah [inaudible 00:22:41].
Jamie Jensen: Taking people behind the scenes, taking them into the how, sharing what you're working on and like teasing-
Christine: [inaudible 00:22:47].
Jamie Jensen: ... your audience with what you're working on. Like, honestly, I think that it ... I think that the best use of Instagram Stories is always process-oriented behind the scenes.
Christine: Yeah. That's very cool.
Jamie Jensen: Taking them like behind the curtain. You know, it's like the Wizard of Oz.
Kendra Perry: Behind the curtain.
Christine: Yeah [inaudible 00:23:02].
Jamie Jensen: I can't speak to like, well what converts sales on Instagram. It's not ... I don't know. I don't look at social media that way. I think you're continuing to reiterate your message, the value you deliver, how you help, who you are. Then you lead them to the next step, which could be a landing page, could be a website, could be a webinar, could be a challenge, could be a Facebook group where you're nurturing an audience beyond what you're doing. I think that it can be challenging to build that same sense of like community and tribe on Instagram compared to the way you use other platforms and how they function for conversion, if that makes sense.
Christine: Yeah, totally.
Kendra Perry: It seems like social media is kind of like that dating part of a relationship where you're just kind of like, you go for coffee. You're like, "Hey, this is a little bit about me. Can I know a little bit about you?" But if you come in too heavy with the sale and you're like, "Hey, you want to like get married, have babies right now?" That person's going to be like-
Jamie Jensen: ... "Holy shit. That's fucking crazy. Get me out of here", right? Like I talk about relationship development like a lot with different platforms and like what stage they are. You know, like when someone opts in they're like, "Oh yeah, yeah. Take my number." You know?
Jamie Jensen: And someone who's following you on social media, like it is they're like, "We're checking you out. We're maybe flirting, but like I don't have your number yet. Like we're not there yet", right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I think that's important because I know I made this mistake when I was new to having a business. It's just like ... You're just like, "Oh sweet. I'll just get a Facebook page and I'll just tell people about my program and people will buy." And then you're pushing it out there and you're getting crickets and nothing's happening. You're like, "I don't understand why people don't want this from me."
Christine: I used the exact template that made Russell Brunson a gazillion billion dollars. Why isn't it working? You know?
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: I get it.
Jamie Jensen: Totally.
Christine: It's just more difficult than that sometimes.
Jamie Jensen: It's also kind of-
Kendra Perry: So Jamie [crosstalk 00:25:10]-
Jamie Jensen: That's also the same thing as like getting into a really sexy dress, going to a party and walking around the whole time, talking about yourself. Like that's what then it's like, "Who wants to date that?" It's just like you know, it's like, "I'm really hot. I'm just going to walk around and talk about myself the whole time" and like not ask questions and not listen and not speak to them and not engage and like not care about anybody else. Like that's [crosstalk 00:25:34] person.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:25:34] that's literally what-
Jamie Jensen: That's what people do when they build their website and they're like, "It's all about me." [inaudible 00:25:41] but like no one cares.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, no one cares about you.
Jamie Jensen: [inaudible 00:25:44] care about themselves.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah.
Christine: [inaudible 00:25:47].
Kendra Perry: So I was ... Right before we hopped on the call I went and got your email opt-in and I got all your stuff and in the, your little like mini course that I think just purchased because I got sucked in, but I'm really excited to do it. But you were talking about in the first email that I got, you talked about like a story format where you said, "The desire, the challenge, the twist, the shift and the takeaway." Can you break that down a little bit? Is that kind of how you coach people how to kind of start building their story?
Jamie Jensen: So the tripwire that you bought is like, I have a five-step story formula, which is exactly that. It's ... How do I say this? It's kind of like one format that isn't as detailed as other formats I teach. So yes, I can.
Jamie Jensen: Usually, what I have people do is I have them work backwards through it. So we start with like the takeaway, which is like, what's the message you really want to deliver? What are you trying to say? Sometimes you don't know until you've like done the other five steps and then you come back around and you're like, "Oh wait, what am I really trying to say here? What am I trying to convey?" So knowing what you stand for, what's the result that you want to actually show your audience as possible, and the story that you share no matter what, should be evidence for that takeaway.
Jamie Jensen: So I always talk about romantic comedies because I've written quite a few and that's ... I write R-rated comedies, but I also write relationship-driven stories so they'd follow a romantic comedy structure.
Kendra Perry: Very cool.
Jamie Jensen: The underlying message of all romantic comedies is love conquers all. Like that's really [inaudible 00:27:21] they all end, love conquers everything.
Christine: Okay. I'm out a divorce. I'm fine. Oh no. Where's my beer?
Jamie Jensen: But if the movie didn't end with them living happily ever after and then it's like, "We don't see anything that happens after that because we're stop ... It's kind of like what you're saying with health coaches who haven't [inaudible 00:27:45] at the end and they're like, "I don't want to share my story because ... " Because it keeps going, but we get to choose what snapshot we share of our timelines.
Jamie Jensen: If the romantic comedy movie didn't end in that space, then the message would change. So you get to decide what your message is based on what you share in your story and like where you start, where you end. So know your takeaway.
Jamie Jensen: You know, when I teach this on stage, I call it ... I had a professor in college who called like, he would say he had a chicken McNugget for us. That was like his way of saying it's a little nugget of information. So he would call it chicken McNugget. It was just hilarious. So I'm like, "What's your chicken McNugget? What do you want people to walk away with? What do you want them to feel and know and do and feel confident in?" So always start with the takeaway.
Jamie Jensen: The desire is usually going to be, you know, what is it that ... If you're telling your personal story, what is it that you wanted that set you off on the journey in the first place? What created that desire? What was the goal? What did you want? The challenges like, what was hard about that? What was the problem you encountered trying to face the goal? The twist is like, what did you have to change?
Jamie Jensen: So, for example, let's say your goal ... I'm just going to use like a really ... This is just going to be really bad example, but the basic, most basic example. Let's say that the goal was like, I want to lose 10 pounds. Okay? So you're like, "I'm gonna lose 10 pounds. I'm going to do it by like not eating sugar and working out every day", which actually sounds really healthy and probably I should use a better example. But let's say that like it's not working for you or you crave chocolate every day and you're like, "I just need to eat chocolate everyday. Like I can't do this no sugar thing. It doesn't work for me." So you decided like, "This isn't going to work. I need a different approach." So that's the twist.
Kendra Perry: Right [inaudible 00:29:40].
Jamie Jensen: Then the shift is you take a new approach that helps you actually get where you want to go. So the shift is like, "Oh, here's my new approach." You know, when we're talking about storytelling, it's always about a character achieving a goal in spite of obstacles. Based on what the obstacles are and what the obstacles ... what you encounter, what happens is either the goal changes or you find a way of overcoming the obstacle that becomes part of the takeaway message. So you're building evidence for what you want the customer to know.
Jamie Jensen: So let's say you want the customer to know you can have chocolate every day and lose weight, and like, here's my system for doing that, right? So then that's the story you tell them and in the shift you're like, "Instead of not eating sugar, what I did was I let myself have one piece of chocolate every day and that actually helped me curb my cravings, and like balanced whatever and I wasn't like I had to ... I experienced pleasure in how I was eating and that helped me create what I wanted to create." So that's kind of the very fast version of teaching those steps.
Christine: I like it. So how do you work with your clients. So, I mean it's such a personal kind of topic, but from what I soused out here, there's like all kinds of different strategies that you use. You know, let's talk business here. Like the way that you structured your business, so walk us a little bit through that. If we have some people like me right now who's like on my notepad is like hire her, [inaudible 00:31:07]. How did you build your business and how is it structured now?
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, so is the question like what do I offer and what are my like what's my business model?
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, so great question. I had a copywriting agency for about four years that I shut down a year and a half or two years ago now. So that was my first business model. Now my model is different. I do a lot more teaching, mentorship, consulting, optimization and like custom work. So I don't really do done-for-you writing very often. I will do co-writing with people sometimes like actually help them, they write, I write, we switched back and forth. I support them in extracting what needs to be extracted and structuring it the way it needs to be structured. So it's a little similar to like developmental editing work but it involves more like story extraction.
Jamie Jensen: I have a process for getting people to like share stuff and I go really deep with my clients. You know I'm a [inaudible 00:32:05] person so even though what we pull out is going to be like really, really legit and, and it's going to have emotional resonance, but we can also build a sense of humor into it, which is really what I do with people.
Jamie Jensen: So to-
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:32:20]. I actually noticed that about your website. I was like, "Man, her copy is really good", but I laughed the whole time when I read your About page. I was like, "This is great", because I love that. I love humor. Like you know, it's like, "Well, is she serious?" We've got to like laugh and say stupid shit sometimes.
Jamie Jensen: That's what I did. Like the first website that I had, everything was super clean and like polite. The one that I have now, it's just like full of swear words and just calling it the way that it is. Ultimately people buy us. So if they don't like the way that we talk, they will never trust us and they will never [inaudible 00:32:52].
Kendra Perry: You need to bring all of you.
Kendra Perry: Okay. That sounds-
Jamie Jensen: So the business model is, I have two courses I sell. One is on writing your website copy to convert more clients and one is more, it's Story School, which is like, "Here's really like all you need to know about story structure." So I've eliminated all of the BS, like all the stuff you don't need to know, here, you don't need to know it, but like, here's actually how to tell a story to engineer it emotionally. So that's what Story School is.
Jamie Jensen: Then what I've created now that I'm actually putting together for the summer is, more of like a group mentorship program around like how to take your story and adjust it to different platforms. So it's kind of a blend of ... It's going to be like a small program, but it will be a group, but it'll be like the best way to get mentorship from me because it's not as expensive as one-on-one would be for example.
Kendra Perry: Right, yeah.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: Which is what Kendra does mainly too.
Jamie Jensen: [inaudible 00:33:55].
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Like group programs. One-on-one I find so exhausting sometimes, but group os fun.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, yeah. I love one-on-one, but it's ... Because I only have until [inaudible 00:34:05] group courses but it's because charge accordingly so it's fine.
Kendra Perry: Totally. Cool. It sounds like when you work with a client you kind of pull the stories out of them. I'm picturing this therapy session where I cry a lot.
Jamie Jensen: Totally. That is totally what happens.
Kendra Perry: I feel [crosstalk 00:34:19] as in, "This doesn't belong to my story. Tell me more. Boo hoo" you know? Like, yeah.
Jamie Jensen: It's very healing. Like, here's the thing. Stories heal people. Like this is, I mean, this is honestly why I do the work I do. Like, I believe that story is healing. I believe that watching someone else's story can help you have that emotional catharsis where you're like, "Oh my God. They're me." Then you actually get the benefit of that healing.
Jamie Jensen: I have people who listen to my podcast, there are episodes where I just share stuff and they message me and they're like, "Oh my God. I so resonate with this. I went through that too. I was crying the whole time listening to your episode." We don't realize the power of sharing our story that like we're not just getting clients, we're actually healing other people by doing it. So it takes a lot of balls to really go there and it's worth it on many different levels.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, yeah. I totally agree about ... A year ago I made a shift to just trying to be more raw and honest with my past and things I've done and I've shared all kinds ... If you go through my Instagram, I mean you can learn some pretty dark things about me and embarrassing and like times where I like did too many drugs-
Christine: She [inaudible 00:35:32].
Kendra Perry: ... and like all kinds of stuff.
Christine: She [inaudible 00:35:33].
Kendra Perry: But it helps. Right? I get that too. People contact me and being like, "Oh my God, I can't believe you shared that. That was so raw and it shocked me, but it's so ... Like, I did that too", you know, sort of thing. I love that stories heal people. I think that's amazing.
Christine: Totally. All right, so I think that's pretty much all we have time for at the moment. But how can people get in touch with you and hire you ideally? I do think [inaudible 00:36:02] We tend to spend so much money, especially in the beginning of our business on email and [inaudible 00:36:08] courses and on website design and all kinds of crap. It's like, I think story is like one of the key pieces. It tends to be overlooked or not taken seriously when I think, I really believe that is one of the main converters in the end, longterm game. So how do people get in touch with you? How do they find you?
Jamie Jensen: They can go to the jamiejensen.com which is where Kendra grabbed the messaging worksheet and the mini story course, which we just chatted about. So there is a messaging worksheet on that page. If you're having trouble writing your About page and you just run a workshop, like a little workbook for that, I have a free one at howtowriteanaboutpage.com that they can go grab that literally walks them through a process of like, I just ask them questions and they just answer them. By answering questions, they're actually writing the first draft for their About page. So it's so easy. It'll pull a story out of them for their About page. So I would say those are probably the best two places to go just get some support right now in like figuring out your messaging and kind of starting this process for sure.
Kendra Perry: Perfect.
Kendra Perry: Well I'll try to be less of a creeper, Jamie and I'll start to engage with you more because I've been like creeping behind your ship for a while.
Christine: See well it worked. You've bought, so it worked.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I just came out of the woodwork. I'm like, "Be on my podcast. Oh my God", but really I've been creeping for a while so.
Jamie Jensen: This has been such a pleasure. Thank you ladies so much.
Kendra Perry: Thanks for being here.
Christine: Thanks so much.
Kendra Perry: Thanks so much guys. Yeah, if you're listening to this episode, make sure to screenshot it, share it to your stories, take a 360 Health Biz podcast and we will share it to our stories and give you a shout out. If you love this episode, definitely leave us a five star review on iTunes or wherever. I think you can only leave one on iTunes. Can you leave one on Spotify? I don't even know.
Kendra Perry: I always say iTunes and Spotify, but maybe just iTunes and guys will be with you again in two weeks time with another fantastic episode. Bye.
Christine: [inaudible 00:38:01].
Have you ever wondered how to grow your sales with Facebook groups? Facebook groups allow you to be your authentic self and show up each and every day to your followers. In this episode, Joanna Novelo will dive into Facebook groups, share why having quality of members is sometimes better than the amount of Facebook members, and how to engage with the people in your Facebook group. We also discussed how your involvement and engagement in your Facebook group can help grow your followers and lead to increased sales.
With a life’s mission to invoke the same feelings that Walt Disney has for people….It’s certainly no surprise that Joanna Novelo wears a shining cape when it comes to bringing out the best in others. Joanna is an expert in community building and management as well as customer service, account management, CRM set up and management, and social media strategy. If Joanna could sum it all up in one sentence this is what she would say, “My fulfillment in life comes from seeing others transform, win, and I love being a part of that.” Her only flaw is that she feels responsible when people get thrown off their path: because, ultimately it’s imprinted in her DNA to make sure people have a good time.
Oh and did we mention that you considers herself a GIF consultant. Yea..we thought that was pretty cool too.
Connect with Joanna here: https://www.facebook.com/joanna.novelo.7
Grab our Ultimate Health Coaching Tool Kit complete with our top picks for platforms plus our sample contract and intake form: http://360healthbizpodcast.com
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Kendra Perry: Hey, hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am your host, Kendra Perry, and sadly, I am without my lovely, beautiful cohost, Christine. Right now, she is with her little one. So, you guys are just going to have to hang out with me today, but luckily, I have a pretty awesome guest with us on today who I am really, really excited to hang out with. Our paths have kind of been crossing on and off over the past few years, and when it comes to building an online community, which is pretty important these days if you want to be successful in your health coaching business. She is the expert. I was actually in a Facebook group where she was the community manager. It was probably a couple years ago now, and I just remember her being so fun, so many GIFs, loved all the GIFs. She definitely was a GIF inspiration for me because, now, that's how I run my groups, with a ton of ridiculous GIFs, and just to give you guys a little bit more background on [Joanna 00:01:04], her life's mission is to invoke the same feeling that Walt Disney has for people.
Kendra Perry: It's certainly no surprise that Joanna wears a shining cape when it comes to bringing on the best of others. She is an expert in community building and management as well as customer service, account management, CRM setup and management, and social media strategy, so lots of great skills there. If Joanna could sum it up all in one sentence, this I what she'd say, "My fulfillment in life comes from seeing others transform, win, and I love being a part of that." Her only flaw is that she feels responsible when people get thrown off their path because, ultimately, it's imprinted in her DNA to make sure people have a good time. That is a fantastic bio, Joanna. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
Joanna: Thank you for having me, Kendra.
Kendra Perry: That is awesome, and right before we hopped on to record today, I was actually creeping on your Facebook group, and what I saw on your Facebook ... or not your Facebook group, your Facebook page, and what I saw was "GIF consultant." And I was like, "Yes. She totally is the GIF consultant. I love it." I love it.
Joanna: Yeah. I'm going to make it a real profession.
Kendra Perry: I think it needs to be a real profession. I love that you use so many GIFs, and you had so much humor when we were in the funnel playground together, and when I run my groups, we have a lot alike. I'm in the health coaching industry. So, we have a lot of really sick people who are in really dark places, and I like to keep the mood light, and once you kind of set the stage for [inaudible 00:02:28], everybody gets into it, right?
Joanna: They do.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. So, I would love if you could just tell me a little bit about how you ended up as a community manager expert, being kind of the expert in Facebook groups. I would love to know how you got from A to B.
Joanna: Yeah. So, it's really funny. A to B, actually, the vehicle that I used to get there was GIFs. So, it's a super funny story, and it started in the group that we were in together. So, I started out working for Lindsay Padilla, and she just gave me the space to do whatever I wanted in her business, and she was like, "Oh, does that sound good? Here take this course. Let's do this." So, I was kind of just hopping around, and she said, "Hey. So, we have this group called Funnel Playground, and we just need some help with it." And Emily Hirsh gave me the space to just play around and have fun in there, and it actually ended up being the thing that stuck, and so, it kind of just went one right after the other. I ended up being in someone else's group, and they asked me if I wanted to manage their community as well, and then, that one led to another, which led to another, and yeah.
Kendra Perry: And here you are.
Joanna: And here we are.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I mean, I just love that because that membership with Emily and Lindsay was so fun, and I mean, that's definitely what they were doing for, but it was like marketing and funnels doesn't seem that fun, but it really was fun, and I just love the energy that you brought to that group. You were just on every post, commenting with something funny, with emojis, with GIFs, and it really kind of made maybe what would have been a dry topic just really funny and lots of laughs.
Joanna: Exactly. Yep.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. So, I want to start from the very beginning here because I actually get this question a lot. A lot of people seem to be confused between the difference between a Facebook page and a Facebook group. Can you just briefly explain the difference so we can kind of set the stage? And then, we'll hop into community and Facebook groups in a little more detail.
Joanna: Sure. So, this is just kind of how I picture it in my mind. A Facebook page is kind of like your billboard. It's like your advertisement. That's where people who are just coming in off of the sidewalk are seeing you, and then, they're finding out about you. The Facebook group is actually where they've come inside, and they've sat down.
Kendra Perry: Oh, okay. I like that.
Joanna: And then, that's where you get to have deeper conversations with them. So, it's kind of like stage one, just your advertising, and then, stage two is they're coming inside, they're having a seat, and they're opening up conversations.
Kendra Perry: Okay. Yeah. That's really cool. So, it would probably be pretty hard to get a lot of engagement or build a community just based off of your Facebook page, probably just wouldn't happen, hey?
Joanna: Yeah. If you're able to volleyball back and forth with conversations with people, they'll follow your page. They'll follow your group, and they will engage in both.
Kendra Perry: Okay. That's very cool. Okay. So, let's talk about some of the different types of Facebook groups because I know there's not just one type or maybe one reason why you would use one.
Joanna: Sure. Okay. So, there are several different types. I would say as far as purpose, it's split into two. It's either that you're promising to move someone from point A to point B, which is actually the overarching of any group, is you're supposed to connect for some reason. So, that's the overarching reason of any group, and then, there are some where it's like a program where you're moving from along this journey to get a desired result, or you're networking, and so, you're just in there to meet other people. And there's such a huge variety because it can be people who sell quilts. They're in there to network with other people. Whatever it is, it's just about connection. So, then, you get into what is the purpose of the group. How is it supposed to serve you? So, if you are launching a product, is it just a container there for you to build the buzz, to build the hype, and then, there's an endpoint for that, right? And then, they might move into a paid group.
Joanna: So, with each one of these types of groups, there's different rules, and there's different cultures and vibes that are going on in these communities, and so, oftentimes, what shapes it the most is how much of an investment they're putting into it. So, you might have a free group, which is where people are just coming to learn about you to open up conversations, and we'll get into this later, but a free group is, it's the starting point of everything and where the conversation ... You've been out on social media talking, and now, they come in, and they're like, "Okay. Yeah. Let's talk." So, the free group is a place for people to bridge that gap. Then, you might have a paid membership group, and then, you might have a premium mastermind type group. And then, there's other types of launches like JV Launches. If you're launching for someone else, there's totally different rules and things around that, and then, just giving somebody a place to connect. So, for some people, and this is cool. It's cool. Sometimes, there's secret societies, private groups, where they might curate 20 to 50 people, and they're just in there to connect with each other, right?
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Okay. That's awesome. I really love that. I love the idea of kind of you can almost move people through this journey of Facebook groups from off your page into your free into your mid-level membership, and then, maybe some, yeah, premium mastermind sort of thing. Okay. So, let's talk a little bit about free groups because I know a lot of our people, they want to get clients, and they're trying to come up with ways to build that trust, build that trust, build that like and trust factor with their people, and I do know a lot of them are trying to leverage Facebook groups, but a lot of people, I feel like the biggest thing, and you probably hear this all the time, too, is that how do I get engagement. And I had this experience when I had a free group, too. It was so hard to get that engagement, to get more than just me posting in the group, right? So, why do you think it's so hard to get engagement in a free group, and do you have any tips and tricks for how to maybe improve that?
Joanna: Oh, my gosh. Yes. So, all the pieces of the puzzle are right in front of you. It's just that maybe people don't know that, that's a piece of the puzzle or what they should be looking at. So, first of all, the tone that you use in your group is different from what you use on your social media. I also have this totally radical idea that people are killing themselves to create social media content and then giving the leftovers to their group when, actually, if they just went into their group and started conversations, the social media would come out of that, and social media gets the leftovers, not your group. So, your group is not responding because they got leftovers. It's the same thing that you posted out on your personal page, and it's the same thing you posted on Instagram. So, if I were actually to flip it, and I was in your community, and I contributed to that conversation, and I saw it happen in real time, and then, if I follow you on Instagram, I see that you listened to me, number one. You listened to me, and then, you took that, and then, you put it on your Instagram, you're shining a light on your community.
Joanna: So, you're creating a raving fan out of that, and then, you're showing people out on social media what they're missing inside of your group. And then, you're driving traffic to the group because, "Hey, that's a killer conversation that came out of there. I identify with that." And you know why they'll identify with it is because it came from one of their potential peers in your group. You didn't create it. It's not from your mouth. It's from the mouths of somebody else in the group. So, they'll identify with it. So, the biggest reason people aren't getting engagement is because they know that they're getting leftovers, which is just an easy switch. Just switch it, and that just comes down to creating conversations. So, Facebook gives you tools that help you to understand what people want to talk about and what people find interesting. So, the biggest thing you can use is ... You know when you're inside your group, and you can click on someone's profile, and then, it pulls up that running scorecard of all the things they commented on, all the things that they've liked? Do you know what I'm talking about?
Kendra Perry: Yep. Totally. Are you talking about the insights tool?
Joanna: No. So, it's actually if you're just inside the group in the discussion, if you were to click on someone's name, it would pull up, "Oh, this is when they joined. This is the last comment that they left." So, you can actually see. Facebook actually took all their activity and put it into a little scorecard that all you have to do is click on, and you can actually see what that person likes, literally.
Kendra Perry: Interesting.
Joanna: I can see the comments that they're liking, and if I can see a pattern there, I can create something out of that.
Kendra Perry: Oh, I love that. That is so personalized, which is so fantastic, and I love what you're saying about creating this conversation. The way to get people engaged is to create an actual conversation instead of just ... I think maybe a mistake people make is they're just trying to educate, but they're putting a post into a group that don't really drive conversation or ask people a question. There's no reason to engage. It's just like, "This is this, and this is why you should do this," and it's like, "Okay. Great. I got that. I don't need to say anything more." Right?
Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. And so, actually the easiest way to create content for your group is through sales conversations that you're having. So, the biggest objections that you're getting, you don't even have to create any of this content. You would just take your sales calls and be like, "What did they object about this?" And then, you go to the group, and you educate your group on why that's not a thing. So, then, you're slapping down your objections for the future, but you're also teaching them because that was something they came to the call, and they were misunderstood about, right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Joanna: So, you take it back to the community. You teach them how to not be this person, and there's your content, and then, the conversation will take off from there.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I love that. I think you can get so much content from sales calls, sometimes, just having Post-Its. I literally will post it, post it, post it. My company is just covered in Post-Its with all these questions that people ask, and not only is that great for your group, but it's great for everything. It's great for your sales copy, on your sales page. It's great for your email marketing, just seeing ... because there's going to be a lot of overlap, typically, with those questions that people are asking, right?
Joanna: Exactly. So, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Whatever reason people feel, and people will always say that free groups take the most time, and it's not. I mean, I would just put up a post about an objection I got in a sales call, and I would let the conversation develop out of that.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love that you bring that up because I hear that, too. It's so much work. It's like an extra social media platform, and definitely, I think people need to really embrace the repurposing of content idea across all platforms, right? We shouldn't be reinventing the wheel, but I love what you're saying about groups, or it can just be so simple, and you don't need to put this huge post with this beautiful graphic and all these hundreds of points on why something is helpful, but you could really just ask people a simple question that might relate to something that they're going through, and that's going to get way more engagement, right?
Joanna: Exactly. Yeah. Because if you're doing the other, you're preaching to them rather than asking them, "What do you want?"
Kendra Perry: Yeah. So, it's probably better to get more on their level, right? We don't want to be standing above them talking down to them. We want to be sitting on the exact same level with them, talking to them, person to person, like friends or acquaintances sort of thing.
Joanna: Yeah. So, some of the most successful group owners are the ones that are willing to get out and mingle.
Kendra Perry: Mingle. I love it.
Joanna: Yeah, which is why Lindsay does really well. She will always beat anyone in an organic form because she's down talking with the people.
Kendra Perry: Totally. Yeah, and I love that you say that because I was just at Social Media Marketing World, and definitely, one of the themes at that conference was like, "Talk to people. Have real conversations." If you want to try something new, ask people if they want it, and then, create it based off of the feedback that you get, which is so much of Lindsay's perspective. I love Lindsay, too. I'm in her Building a Better Beta course about courses, and it's so much about create based off of what people are telling you and what they're asking for, which is very simple but very genius, right?
Joanna: Yeah. It's very back to basics.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love that. It's kind of like that full circle of online marketing, right?
Kendra Perry: Cool. Okay. So, I would love to know, do you have any strategies that you use for starting a Facebook group to maybe start it off on the right foot instead of kind of starting a group, having their be crickets, and then, sometimes, I'll see people just adding people in without their permission and just kind of forcing people into a group to try to make it happen. Is there a better way to kind of start that group off on the right foot so people are coming in engaged? Do you have any strategies for that?
Joanna: Yeah. So, it comes down to the purpose of your group because a lot of times, the purpose of the group is tied to how many members you're trying to recruit for it. If it's super high mastermind, you're obviously going to keep your numbers low. If you're trying to grow a free group, you're probably going to want to keep your numbers high. You're shooting for high numbers. Okay. So, that's the defining factor on how many members should I have because everyone always thinks, "As many as I can get." So, it depends on the purpose of what you're trying to do. So, everyone always thinks, for a free group, it's as many as I can get, and I'm a failure until I get at least 1000 members. For some reason, the gold standard is 1000 members like, "I've kind of made it when I hit 1000."
Joanna: So, the quality of the people that you add into your group is going to affect the quality of the output of the group. A lot of times, people, just for numbers, will add in the people that don't want to be there, and then, they're not engaging, and then, they're like, "Well, why is my group not engaging?" Well, they didn't come there to engage. They came there just to support you, and they didn't want to tell you no, but they don't have anything to contribute to the conversation. So, why would they? So, you need an avatar. So, this is what's hilarious about the whole thing. You're out in the sales funnel using this avatar. On Facebook ads, you created an avatar, and then, when you get to the group, which is where the money's at, right? Getting in there, face-to-face, and you accept anybody.
Kendra Perry: I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.
Joanna: So, you have to stick to the avatar because you probably already, you have an avatar worksheet, right? So, you know this is the person that I'm looking for, but for some reason, when they show up in real life, like adding or requesting to join a group, people totally lose sight of what they're trying to do here. So, you have to stay in alignment. If you want people to have conversations in your group that mean something, not just basic conversation ... Do you like paperback, or do you like hardback books? Right? Real conversation. You need to stick to the avatar that you started with at the beginning of the funnel, and you're only letting those people in.
Kendra Perry: And so, how can you make sure you're only letting the right types of people into your group?
Joanna: So, you'll go to their profile, and you'll look at this is your avatar come to life. Do they fit the avatar? What things are they talking about? In the health space, are they sharing motivational stuff, or are they sharing memes? You'll see it on the profile, and if you don't, then you don't know what your avatar looks like, which means you need to practice looking at this is who I resonate with.
Kendra Perry: So, it sounds like before you even create a Facebook group, you need to ... and I mean, this comes down ... This is true for so many things. You need to have your ideal client. You need to figure out who that person is and who you're actually talking to. I feel like a lot of health professionals and newer health coaches, they're very resistant to niching down. I think there's a lot of fear around it, and I totally get it because I felt the same fear. You're worried about turning people away, but I really do believe the more specific you can be about who you're helping, the more successful you're going to be in the long run.
Joanna: So, if you're not specific with who you're helping, people don't know how to help you. The way that people who have niche down, the way they got ahead is because people knew how to help them. They knew how to send referrals because, now, I know exactly what you do. They know what things to recommend you for. They know where to tag you, and when you do five separate things, they tag you for nothing. You'd be surprised how much niching down cracks open a network for you.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I agree, and I think in the end, I help women in their 30s and 40s dealing with fatigue and burnout, but I get dudes coming to me all the time. I have dude clients who just come to me, and they're like, "I know you help women and this, but I really like your videos," and I'm not going to turn them away necessarily. If I have room for a client, and they seem committed, then I'll work with them, right? It doesn't mean that you necessarily turning people away. People need to know how to find you because if you help everyone, really, I think your help no one.
Kendra Perry: Cool. Very cool. And so, I feel like some of the maybe struggle that health coaches have specifically with building engagement in a group is that what we're, I guess, the topic that our group is going to be created around sometimes can be very person, right? And maybe people aren't always wanting to engage because they're embarrassed. Maybe they don't want to get on there on a post and talk about their heavy period or their menstrual cramps or their migraines or their loose poops or something like that. Do you have any tips for how to break through and get to those people and help them engage better when maybe there's a bit more of a sensitive topic at play?
Joanna: Yes. So, I want to tell these people that think their topic is so sensitive, nobody's ever going to talk about it that you're not special, and you're not the only one that thinks that because people who deal with groups around recovering alcoholics have the same thing. If you're a money mindset coach, it's the same thing. People don't want to talk about their money in front of other people. Groups about hormones, they get sensitive, and they, "I need to message them." So, this happens a lot, but conversation still happens. It still happens. So, it depends on ... So, conversation is a loaded word. You can have heavy conversation. You can have light conversation. So, when it comes to sensitive topics, we would probably want to have light conversation. Give them an option. So, with every post that we're putting out, we're giving them options because that's how they understand how you want them to respond back. Though, if I'm bringing up a heavy conversation, I will ask for a light response in return, so, "Who here has dah, dah, dah? Yes or no." They can participate, but they don't have to get in detail, and you gave them direction and permission to do that.
Joanna: If you have a light post that you want a heavy response on, so this gets a little tricky, but if you are trying to drive sales for something, you would want to move the conversation into messenger. So, that way, they are opening up, and you are having a sales conversation, removing roadblocks, and this is why it matters that in the group, you're taking these things out, and you're addressing them because then, you get less of these same problems in messenger, right? So, you have the conversation with them, and then, it gets to a point where you say, "I can help you with that." And then, it's a sales conversation. Otherwise, they're not allowed to keep messaging over and over again and getting more of your time. That is very [crosstalk 00:25:13].
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I feel like it's a fine line, right? Some people really do just want free information, whereas other people are serious about speaking with you about a potential working relationship together, and I guess you need to figure out where that fine line is and when to cut it off, and I think a big part of it is you need to be in control. You need to be a leader. You need to be standing in a position of power and not ... teaching people how you want them to engage in your group and being kind of like the knowledgeable leader and not just letting the group kind of create a mind of its own, right?
Joanna: Exactly. So, I work for [Brad Newman 00:25:52] who talks about ... So, this gets into a little bit of a sales conversation here, but it helps because this is where you would draw the line. There is a difference between helping someone, and then, there's a difference with letting them continue to tell their stories. So, their stories are what brought them to the call, and it's the story that's going to send them to your messenger. Do you allow them? And you'll see it clear as day now. Do you allow them to keep telling the story, or do you offer them the solution that they've been waiting for? And then, you take the story that you've been given, and then, you repurpose that within the group so that way, the other people that are telling themselves the stories are now hearing that message.
Kendra Perry: I really, really love that. That's awesome. Yeah. Because I guess we want people to share their stories, but we want them to want a solution, too. We don't want them to be in victim mode and people just not actually ... just wanted to dump stuff on you and not actually wanting a solution or to tell you why it's not possible for them to see success in whatever their issue is, right?
Joanna: Right. It's a disservice to them to not offer a solution.
Kendra Perry: Right. Very cool. Okay. So, let's talk a little bit about different types of ways to post into a group because I know there's all these cool group features that you can use, and what are some of your favorites?
Joanna: So, again, it will always come back to what is the type of group that you have, and we rattled off like seven or eight different types. So, it would depend on ... It's really cool. You can create this world based on the features that they give you, one being the marketplace where you got to set up units. You could also set up a marketplace, and that's where people would network and sell. So, you can really design whatever experience you want with the features they're giving. The most popular one is probably the units.
Kendra Perry: And is that relatively new? I first saw that in Lindsay's course, and I was like, "Wow. This is awesome."
Joanna: It's probably like a year and a half old.
Kendra Perry: Okay. So, I am behind the times.
Joanna: Yeah, and so, it's taken people a while to get used to it, to know how to navigate and to know that it's there or to look for it. So, people are catching on now. So, with units, if people are learning something from you, they're really cool. Also, if you want to map out a journey for them, you could do a first module with an introduction. So, let's say you're in a free group. With free groups, think about when you're added into one how confusing it is, and you have to learn all the posts are out of order, and you don't know who's who. So, units work really well to help organize like, "Hey, if you're new to me, start here," and you can link to your intro video. You can link to, "Here's my freebie if you haven't gotten it yet. Listen to my podcast." So, you would just make these posts, and then, just curate it under that first unit.
Joanna: It's also a really good chance to start linking to sales posts. So, that way, "Hey, I'm meeting you. I'm talking to you." And then, you progress them through. Okay. Some other things, I really love tags, but not all groups have tags. So, on your post, you can categorize things. So, if I'm looking for tomatoes, on the side, I can actually click on the tag called tomatoes, and then, all the posts that have been put up about tomatoes are tagged tomatoes. Facebook [crosstalk 00:29:52]-
Kendra Perry: So, when you say, did you mean in the little menu on the left side, you can have ... or where do tags specifically show up?
Joanna: They're on the right side.
Kendra Perry: The right side. Okay.
Joanna: Yeah. So, where it says invite members, they're usually right under there if you have it, and then, you'll see it on your post. It'll say "add topic" right under your name when you post. So, there's no rule that I know of for why do some groups have tags, why do some not.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Sometimes, when Facebook rolls things out, it happens really unevenly.
Joanna: It does. Yeah. They don't update previous groups. They just ... Yeah. They do what they want.
Kendra Perry: Okay. I have to see if my groups have that because I love that. Okay. What else?
Joanna: Yeah. The tags are fun, and it makes it really easy for you because if someone says, "Kendra, I'm looking for something on bone health," and then, you have a whole tag for that, all you do is say, hey, on the right side, click on it, and it'll pull up 20 posts.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. That's awesome.
Joanna: [crosstalk 00:30:54] organize for you. Yeah. So, I like going live in groups because even if you don't have everyone on there live, and most people don't show up live.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Very true.
Joanna: So, you got to get over it. If two people show up, so what? Most people catch the replay, and then, it happens over a couple of days. So, two hours later is not a good time to judge engagement. So, live versus video, what's the difference? It's energy, and they know that you just showed up to be yourself because you have to when you're live. When you're on video, you could always do multiple takes, and you get to choose the version that we get to see, but when you're live, it's you, and it's authentic, and if you made a mistake, so what? We're still rolling.
Kendra Perry: Funny things happen on live video all the time.
Joanna: Exactly. Yeah, but it's always a good shot of energy into the group, and it feels different from video. So, I would say go live at least once a week in your group because it just stirs things up, and when do you do it? It really doesn't matter. I mean, whenever because most people are going to catch the replay anyways.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah, and I think video is just, it's so powerful these days, and that live video, too, because I think, yeah, another common theme that I hear in the marketing world is people are sick of perfect, curated content. They don't buy from brands. They buy from people, and people want to see your personality. That's how they connect to you. They want to be like, "Oh, wow. This girl's pretty funny. I could be friends with her. I feel like if we met up at a party, we would be instant friends." That's what you want people to feel, right?
Joanna: Yeah. A level of access, and groups give you a level of access that the other platforms don't.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I feel like Facebook, with all their new changes rolling out, they are so much about wanting people to have conversations and wanting people to engage and have these meaningful conversations. I feel like that's really what they're pushing their platform towards. So, when you can create that in a group, it's going to do well in the algorithm as well.
Kendra Perry: Do you ever use the poll feature? Do you recommend using that to get information from your group? Because that's one of my favorite tools.
Joanna: Yeah. So, polls are also an excellent option when you want to have those heavy conversations, and you just let people click A, B, or C.
Kendra Perry: I find when you do that, a lot of people will respond because it's easy to just check off a box. For my course I have going on right now, I want to know what do people want for support after the course ends, and I think have 60 people in the group, and 40 people responded, which is great. That's a pretty good representation of the entire group, right?
Joanna: It is. It's low involvement for them, but they can still have a voice. I would get creative with polls. I get creative with all the features just to see what can I do, but Brad, in his group, it's about sales. So, when people make sales, they'll ring the bell, and they ring this cowbell. So, we are having on Sunday a quarterly cowbell ceremony where we're honoring the ... We have five awards to give out to people in the group, and so, there's a reason behind it, but loudest cowbell ringer, that's the person that engages the most. So, we are rewarding that person for being so active. So, what we did is we set up five different polls, and we let people vote, and yeah, there were some people that had never engaged in the group that, because they could just click, that was their chance to just say, "Yeah. This is my voice. I'm voting for this one."
Kendra Perry: Very cool.
Joanna: So, if you use a variety of those tools, maybe those people that are so busy that don't have time to engage in your group, a poll allows them to chime in every now and then. Different features can work with different people. Sometimes, people are visual. Sometimes, they're audio. So, I would play with all of them and just get creative.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and see what people actually want, and I think I love the poll feature for just figuring out what should I be talking about, what topics are you interested in learning about, and then, it's like, "Great. I have the next three coaching call topics."
Joanna: Exactly. Yep.
Kendra Perry: And people may actually show up live.
Joanna: Yeah, and it was low effort by both parties.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love what you said too about just rewarding the engagement. In my paid membership group, I always run contests. We have monthly challenges that help them work towards a goal or create a habit to help them move towards their health goals, but the more they engaged, the more they'll get entered to win some contest. I love contests and that sort of thing, and so, that really ... I mean, Facebook loves that, right? You have lots of people engaging and posting and people supporting each other, and I feel like by doing that, people are just more likely to see your posts in their feed, right, if lots of people are engaging.
Joanna: They are, and there's another phenomenon behind that, which is that it measures time. So, with contests, it's super easy to follow a journey of one week or five days or however long it is because they can see it. They can see, "Oh, five days, we're on day three of five," versus when you're not in a contest, and the group is just open, and then, they just wander, right? So, challenges will always ... accountability. Time containers always do really, really well.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I mean, I love it and super fun, and I think what's so cool about creating a community, too, is that you're the expert. Typically, in our industry, we're going to be having quasi health support groups where people are there to get supported, and you're there to support them, but when everyone else starts supporting each other, it's amazing, and that's one of my favorite things about my membership is when somebody goes on there, and they're having a hard day. They feel like crap or whatever, and they're venting. Like, I'll come on there later and see 50 comments of everyone supporting them and being like, "Hope you feel better. Do you want to talk? You can call me." And some people have actually met up in person who live in the same area. So, it's very cool how you can kind of be the connector of people, especially in the health industry. The biggest thing when you're sick is that it's very isolating. People feel very alone.
Joanna: So, this reminds me of this show I was watching yesterday about ... It was one of those experiments where they would give these kids one marshmallow, and if they could wait 10 minutes, they would get two marshmallows, and only one was able to actually make it, but then, he got two marshmallows, right? And so, this is when it comes ... This is exactly what people do with their Facebook groups. If you are willing to curate people that are involved, that are your avatar, that are your messenger to help you spread your message, you will get that second marshmallow, which is exactly what you just described. They take over the group for you, and then, you actually don't have to do anything. You can go live once a week, but you don't have to do any involvement because your people have found each other, and that was your only job in all of this, right, was to get them into one spot. They have found each other. They will entertain each other. It's kind of like a house party where everybody's happy, and you can slip away upstairs, and nobody notices the party still keeps going.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I love that, and another thing I love to do, too, is just to you kind of get to know your group members, and you figure out who's an expert in what, and I have actually quite a few other health coaches in my group who just needed a health coach of their own, and I have one member who does a lot of mindset and tapping. And I mean, I'm not a woo woo person. I know nothing about that stuff. So, when people have questions about that or want to know more about that, I can always tag her, and she likes feeling like the expert, and she loves to just come on and give her two cents, and I think you can really utilize the expertise of your other members in a lot of ways as well to cut down the amount of work you have to do.
Joanna: Yep. And this is really the height that you want to reach in your group, is having those fans that are taking care of your group for you, and then, you are connecting them inside of your group. So, that way, your network and their network builds up together. This is what it's about.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. That's awesome. Do you have any suggestions for ... because I know some groups that I've seen out there get a little bit out of control. They kind of get overrun, and there's people posting promotional stuff in there, and it kind of starts leaving kind of the purpose of the group was originally built for. Do you have any tips for what you can do to prevent that from happening?
Joanna: Yeah. So, your group does require work. You can't walk away from it, and you have to stay true to what the purpose is and not let it stray because people will ... They will snatch it away really quick, especially if you have built a really large audience. They will try and just do anything to just get in front of them, even if the consequence is being deleted and removed. So, it comes down to curating the right members for your group. So, this is not only an advantage to you in finding the right members, but you're also protecting the people that you have already curated, and it's really selfish of people to think, "I have to hit this number no matter what it costs me or my community." A thousand members means nothing unless they're a thousand quality members that are your avatar and there to spread your message. So, a lot of times that happens because that's people's end goals, is just the numbers rather than focusing on bringing in the right people. So, if you have the right people ... and then, also, those raving fans we're talking about, they will shut those other people down if it starts getting out of control, and they'll say something.
Joanna: And also, the other thing is, sometimes, people just walk away because they're just tired. They're just tired of having to produce the content all the time. They're tired of having to be the face. They're tired of having to show up and provide. They maybe have let their boundaries down, and they let some people into messenger, and they're taking advantage of them, and then, they see the group as the source of that. So, they neglect it. I would say, and this typically happens with free groups, right? If it happens in paid groups, that's more of a culture fit for the member, but this is more about the free groups. So, you have to have a time container for yourself, and then, you have to relay that message to the people in the group. So, is this a pop-up group? Is this only here temporarily? Or is this open forever? If it's open forever, you have to show up. If you promise once a quarter, you have to show up once a quarter. If you promise once a month, show up once a month, but you have to show up. If you can't show up, show up to say you can't show up, and just shut the group [crosstalk 00:43:21].
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Okay.
Joanna: Breaking promises a lot is when people ... because your group goes on the back burner, and then, you're like, "Well, it was just a live in that group," and then, it just keeps getting brushed off, and then, you lose interest. They lose interest. If you're not in the group for a purpose, and you don't know the timeframe of it, which you should always know the timeframe of it, you will lose sight of everything, right? If I know this group is open for the next six months, I know what I need to plan for. If I'm just like, "Oh, I'll just grow it. I'll just grow it." I mean, that's people's strategy, like, "Just get more people in there."
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Kind of just like an afterthought in a way, hey?
Joanna: It is, yeah. So, if I'm getting ready for a launch, I have three months until launch. I know what I need to do three months before the launch. You always needs to have a focus for it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and another thing you said that popped out to me is being willing to protect the members who are in the group, and I guess not being afraid to kick people out when they don't fit in. I've done that in my membership group with somebody who was just bringing a lot of negative energy into the group, and I was like, "You know what? This doesn't fit. This is affecting the other members. So, unfortunately, this person has to go. I'll give them a refund, whatever." But I think you have to be willing to be the leader and realize when there's people who are damaging the community, right?
Kendra Perry: Which isn't always easy, but sometimes, you've got to do it, right?
Joanna: You do. Yeah. Do you want to make one person happy or 75 people upset. This goes down to that.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Exactly, and when your people are in the group, and they're engaged, they see that, right? They see that this person is a virus or bringing everyone down, and they're just waiting for you to do the right thing and take that person out.
Joanna: Exactly. So, one thing that we haven't touched on yet was about energy, and I did want to touch on that because I know that-
Kendra Perry: Sure. Lets do it.
Joanna: ... your crowd will get what I'm saying. So, this touches on how they affect the energy of the group, but most of your success is going to come out of being able to identify your energy patterns in your group, which is also why you need to have a timeframe on it. So, if I'm getting ready to launch, I know that the energy needs to start ramping up. So, people will call this momentum. They'll call it high engagement. So, those are codewords for energy, and you can push it up. You can bring it down. You are like the ... It's an orchestra for you, and you're the conductor, and there's all these strategies out here that do this, right? They'll start drumming up attention for your business and stuff. So, what's fun about the group is it actually captures all the energy, and you can take it and just play with it, and that's why launch groups are so fun because it's just all this energy being shot into the group, and then, so, let's take a paid group, for example, that supports a course. Let's say a course. This'll be easy to illustrate. So, when I join a course, I'm so excited. And so, I would put posts up that I'd just tap into that, like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited you're here. We're partying and everything."
Joanna: And then, will come some work, and then, I'll be like, "Oh, my gosh. Now falling behind. I'm falling behind," and then, now, I'm feeling bad, and now, I'm embarrassed. So, if you know ... and that's a very typical pattern of people buying courses, right? They get on this high from purchasing, and then, they realize there's work. [crosstalk 00:47:23]
Kendra Perry: Or they're either overwhelmed and ... totally.
Joanna: Yeah. It's more than what they thought it would be. It thought it was going to be more plug and play. So, they have all these emotions of having to deal with work. So, you can manipulate that ... manipulate, we'll use that very lightly ... by bringing it up, and you can say, "It was hard work when you signed up, and you knew that. Now, you're just mad because you actually have to do it." I would just put that in their faces like, "You knew this wasn't going to be easy, but you bought it anyways, and here we are. So, it's time to roll your sleeves up." So, then, you bring that back up, and then, they find it to be very intriguing because you look like a psychic like, "How did you know it was going to be hard?" So, you kind of just map out that whole journey. They'll think it's hard, and then, I'll bring that back up, and then, I'll get them some quick wins, and then, they're like, "Wow. Actually, you really know what you're talking about." And then, we just keep building on that momentum. So, that's energy. That's how it will move, especially if you have a launch where you have 100 people that came in at the same time, and they're all going through that. Everybody's excited. Everybody's coming back down. Everybody's like ... and then, it'll split.
Joanna: 50 percent will give an effort. 50 percent won't. So, if you start controlling those energy points, everyone will stay on the same page, the community is tighter, and your completion rate goes up, and then, you get retention, and then, people are willing, and then, all the things you said you could do is happening, and then, they're asking you what's next.
Kendra Perry: I love that. Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's just about being aware that, yeah, people especially in health, people are going to self-sabotage. They're going to fall off the wagon, and just telling them that, "Hey, I know that you feel off the wagon. I know that you ate that three pieces of chocolate cake, and now, you feel guilty, but that's okay. It's okay that you fell off the wagon. It's okay that you feel overwhelmed. Let's get you back up there. Let's get you back on the wagon." Because it tends to happen on a very specific point, especially with health. It's not like this linear progression of feeling better and better and better. It's very much a rollercoaster.
Joanna: Exactly, and everybody's seen that picture of success is not linear, and then, they show what success actually looks like. Everybody's saying that, but then, when it happens in real life, they can't make the connection that, that's what happened, that they just made the loop back, and then, they go up. So, it's inevitable. You will make mistakes, and so, if you give people space to say, "That's okay," and then, you tell them, "I was expecting you. I know that was going to happen anyways," they can forgive themselves much faster and just keep moving forward. So, when you see how the energy ... when you're trying to control the energy and everything, if you have someone that is behind you trying to control what you're doing by being negative or calling you out on things, there can only be one conductor here, and it has to be me. I'm the one that moves the energy in this group, not you.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. You don't want to have everyone else doing it because then, it just gets confusing, and you lost control, and you want to keep whatever vibe you decided to have in that group. You want to keep that as much as possible. That's very cool. So, I love when you're talking about turning community members into clients by sort of you kind of direct them into messenger, and then, have the sales conversation on messenger. Is that your favorite way to kind of turn community members into clients, or do you have other ways that you recommend people try?
Joanna: Yeah. That's going to be what's going to open up your conversation because that's where they're going to admit things to you that they wouldn't say in front of the group, but the group, you're using it to open up and just kind of poke around. It's like the dentist when they're just picking around at the beginning to see what needs work and what doesn't, and then, they step into your office, and then, you have the real discussion. People are not going to just tell you everything right up front, but they can give you permission to come find out, and what you're looking for is permission. So, the group will actually act as a permission slip like, "Hey, I see that. I get that. Step into my office, and let's talk about it." And then, it's like, "Okay." I also think that your free group is like your best advertising machine. Besides it producing the content for you on your social media, you can just be there with them. It's like sitting at a table with them and just asking them, "What do you need? What bothers you? What do you need?" And then, you get to have that conversation on display, and it just works for you. Yeah, I'm sitting here giving my energy to 10 people, but at the same time, 500 are seeing it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah. I love that, and I feel like you've made, in this conversation we've had, you've made me feel that Facebook groups are much easier than I'd made them out to be.
Joanna: Yes, and everybody's like that because I mean, there's a scarcity thing to this, too, right? It has to be hard, so I can sell you my course, but it's the easiest out of all of them because all you have to do is just say, "What bothers you?" That's the easiest. So, I don't have to go on Instagram and research hashtags or create a graphic or any of that. I don't owe anybody anything but figuring out what's up.
Kendra Perry: Yep, and then, you can just add a fun GIF to it, right?
Kendra Perry: Pretty much, every time I post to my group, yeah, there's no graphics. There's nothing curated. It's just the most random GIF that I can find, and people love it.
Joanna: Yes. So, with GIFs, GIFs are your biggest time-saving tool because I can connect with people. Let's say with both watch friends. If I know that I can connect with you and bond with you over Friends GIFs, I also, in a variety of Friends GIFs, can pick ... There's some where they're yelling. There's some where they're laughing. There's some where they're crying. So, I can pick the emotion, and I can match your emotion, and then, that also connected with you because we both love Friends, and then, it just looks funny.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Totally. I love the humor component of it because yeah, it's just so fun to get people to ... I love asking questions in my group like, "Tell me what you did this weekend with a GIF, or what did you want to be when you grew up with a GIF?" And then, it's hilarious, and people love it that you did that because they can just go down and see all these hilarious GIFs and try to guess what people are trying to say.
Joanna: And it's also a little alter ego. Sometimes, I pick GIFs of celebrities, like Jim Carrey, right? If I want to be exaggerating, I will pick a GIF from him, but he's like my alter ego.
Kendra Perry: So, you just use him all the time, or you could be like Beyonce and use all the Beyonce GIFs, right?
Kendra Perry: I love that. Yeah. I never really thought about that alter ego concept, but yeah, you could totally create that and have that energy into your group. Awesome. So, Joanna, where can people find out more about you if they want to dive deep into Facebook groups? I feel like you've provided us with so much great information. At the conference I was just recently at, I saw a talk on Facebook groups, and I was just like, "This isn't good at all." But what we just talked about in the past hour blew that out of the water. So, you are [crosstalk 00:56:05] so much good information. You should be talking at that conference next year.
Joanna: Let's just cut this out, and we'll send it to Social Media Marketing World.
Kendra Perry: Totally.
Joanna: [crosstalk 00:56:16]
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:56:16] for the conference.
Joanna: I love it. So, right now, I am calling home my business page, which is Experience Magic. So, I go live there. I do Magic Mondays [crosstalk 00:56:36].
Kendra Perry: Oh, I love it.
Joanna: So, on Mondays, I go live. So, I've been behind the scenes for a really long time, and so, I'm not really somebody that's able to be found yet. So, that would be the only spot to find me, but yeah, so, I have decided that this year, I've had a lot of people asking me ... They want to learn community. It's finally, after all this time, become a thing, and everybody wants to learn about it now. Yeah. So, I'm going to step out. It's nerve-racking. I get nervous seeing my face on camera, but got to do it, right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Totally, and I know we're both in Lindsay's course right now, and I think I saw one of your posts where you're like, "Ah, I'm so scared to come out from behind the scenes," because you have been still behind the scenes, but you have such a great method. I mean, you are such a great speaker, such a great teacher. I mean, you've got to get out there, girl.
Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. It's time.
Kendra Perry: Cool. So, it's Experiencing Magic is your Facebook page, and we'll be looking for you live every Monday for your Magic Mondays, and we'll be seeing more of you soon, a bit more of you soon, and I can't wait to learn more from you about communities. I'm going to go on your page and eat it up.
Joanna: Yes. [crosstalk 00:57:58] thank you again for having me today.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. No problem. It was so fun to hang out with you today. I really appreciate you being here, and thanks, everyone, for tuning in. We'll be back in a couple weeks, and I will be with my better half, Christine, next time, and guys, if you love this episode, and you love this content, let us know. Leave us a five star review on iTunes. That helps us get out in front of more people, and it just helps us know that you like what you're hearing and that you want us to create more episodes like this. So, thanks so much, everyone, and have a fantastic day.
What if your client's thyroid issue has NOTHING to do with their actual thyroid? Here you are recommending thyroid glandulars, thyroid complexes, thyroid nutrients and you are just wasting their time and money. Even worse...you may be getting them ZERO RESULTS.
When it comes to Hashimoto's and Hypothyroid, you need to look beyond the thyroid. Whitney Morgan, L.Ac, likes to call this the "thyroid landscape."
This means moving beyond the thyroid and looking at the factors that may be preventing the thyroid from working optimal and most of these things may have nothing to do with the thyroid itself.
Whitney is a licensed acupuncturist and diplomate of Oriental Medicine. She is the owner of SagePoint Acupuncture & Wellness LLC in addition to being on staff at Tucson Acupuncture Co-op. Whitney has extensive experience as a functional nutritionist and serves as a clinical adviser for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, Inc. Whitney. Whitney has obtained additional certifications as a Primal Health Coach and Gluten Practitioner. Whitney lives in Tucson Arizona with her husband and two dogs.
Book an appointment with Whitney: https://snapappointments.com/whitneymorgan
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Kendra Perry: Hello, hello, everyone. Welcome to another awesome, unbelievably amazing episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am your host, Kendra Perry. And I am so happy to be joined by my co-host, Christine Hansen, who looks lovely, has amazing lipstick on as always, and almost didn't make it today, so I feel extra lucky.
Christine Hanse: See, and I still had time to put on my lipstick. It's like, there's priorities in life, you know?
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I mean, you look fantastic as always, Christine. And I'm so happy to be here with you.
Christine Hanse: Okay, darling. I'm never getting tired of this. I will never say, "Please stop."
Kendra Perry: We like to flatter each other. And guys, as always, we have a really great episode lined up for you today. We're going to be talking about the thyroid. And when I was, "Okay. We need to talk about the thyroid. Who should we get on?" I instantly thought about Whitney Morgan, who is an old colleague of mine. I used to work with Whitney when I worked for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, and she is one smart cookie. And she is on with us today. And just to give you guys a little bit more info on Whitney ... and I always slur or stumble over my words when I read people's bios, so bear with me, 'cause I get really nervous about it for some reason.
Kendra Perry: So Whitney is a licensed Acupuncturist and Diplomat of Oriental medicine. She is the owner of Sage Point Acupuncture and Wellness, LLC, in addition to being on staff at Tuscan Acupuncture Co-op. I'm doing good so far. Whitney has extensive experience as a Functional Nutritionist and serves as a Clinical Advisor for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition Incorporated. She has obtained additional certifications as a Primal Health Coach and Gluten Practitioner. She lives in Arizona with her husband and her two dogs. Welcome, Whitney. Thank you so much for being here.
Christine Hanse: Yay!
Whitney Morgan: Thanks. I'm glad to be here. And I didn't put on lipstick this morning, so [crosstalk 00:01:53].
Christine Hanse: It's not morning. It's 6 PM, right? I had lots of time.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, Christine's in Europe, so she's in the future.
Christine Hanse: I don't look like this in the morning. Yes. I'm in the future. Exactly. I don't look this good-
Kendra Perry: I'm still on my first coffee, so.
Christine Hanse: [inaudible 00:02:07]
Kendra Perry: Awesome.
Christine Hanse: [inaudible 00:02:10]
Kendra Perry: Whitney, I'd love to know, 'cause I really find you to be such an expert on the thyroid. I've learned a lot from you, just advising with you on tests with Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, and we used to also do webinars together and talk about test results. Why do you like to focus on the thyroid, and how did you become such an expert in it? I'd love to know that.
Whitney Morgan: Well, it's interesting, because as you know, when you worked for FDN, there was always projects in the works, right? Different webinars to be produced. And I got tapped. Reed said, "Hey, do you want to do a webinar on thyroid?" And you know, I'd been a clinical advisor for a while, and I was comfortable with thyroid labs, and I said, "Sure!" But then, preparing the webinar, actually I realized how much I didn't know. So it really was going through that process of doing lots of research, and pulling all of these various threads together that I think improved my expertise. I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert on the thyroid, but I'm on my way. And so, you know, it's all about learning, right? You just got to keep learning. So I was really interested in it, and just kind of dived in. And so, here we are.
Christine Hanse: Well, I can say you definitely came over across as a expert to me, because I'd looked at that webinar, and I was just like, "Oh my god, this is saving my life," because I promise every single client I work with has a thyroid issue. And maybe what's most important, every single client tells me that they've had looked into their thyroid, and they've been told that everything is okay.
Whitney Morgan: Everything's fine, yep.
Christine Hanse: That, and that every practitioner out there who's listening has had the same scenario. And if you don't know better, you will just take that for granted. Right? So okay, they had a test done, their practitioner said, "Everything's okay, so let's not look at that." Why might that not be the best idea?
Whitney Morgan: Well, you know, I think it's a common occurrence like you said, and it's not just the thyroid. It happens with your basic annual blood work too. It's like, "Oh, I had all these tests run. I do it every year, and everything's fine." But you know, in the functional world, we don't wait for diagnosis or pathology. We're looking for patterns before things really go crazy, before the wheels fall off the bus. But most people who come to see practitioners like us, they've already had chronic issues for so long, and unfortunately when they do get their thyroid checked, traditional docs aren't running all the markers. They're just maybe doing TSH or maybe T4, T3 if you're lucky, but that's about it.
Kendra Perry: Right. And what is the comprehensive thyroid panel? What should that actually look like? 'Cause yeah, I see it all the time. People come with their TSH and that's all they got, and you're kind of like, "Well, I mean, that's a small piece of a bigger puzzle."
Whitney Morgan: Right. Right. Well, I think it's important to look at TSH and free T4, free T3. Those are some primary markers that most people are comfortable with. But then reverse T3 is super important, as is thyroid-binding globulin and of course the antibodies are really important. I look at thyroid globulin too, but that's more of a tumor marker. But still, every once in a while, I see that it's really elevated and that's an issue to refer out for follow-up. So really, I think you need all of those things in a complete thyroid panel, at least in the initial test. And then once you get a sense of the lay of the land, then maybe your follow-up testing can be a little more strategic. But it's actually so cheap, I tend to run a complete panel every single time.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Hanse: Yeah, me too. So maybe explain to us why it's so important. Like, why is TSH and T4 not enough?
Whitney Morgan: Okay. Well, you know, TSH is really just the signal, right? So it comes from the pituitary and it says, "Hey, thyroid gland, there's not enough hormones circulating. Make more." It's just the signal. So it is a measurement of that feedback loop. So what's going on in the body that signaling the hypothalamus and the pituitary to determine whether or not we need more or less thyroid hormone production. So it's an important marker, but it does change pretty ... it has a wide range. Let's just put it that way. And it can fluctuate throughout the day, so it really depends on when you get your thyroid tested, are you testing it at the same time every day? So there are certain nuances to relying on TSH. But that's really a marker to evaluate a signal. That's really it. And then you have free T4 and free T3. Of course, the majority of what the thyroid produces is T4, and then it's converted into T3, which is the active form of the hormone that docks into all the cell receptors and is that metabolic driver.
Whitney Morgan: But there's also reverse T3. So reverse T3 is really important, because if you think of free T3 as the brakes, let's rev up that metabolism, get things going. I mean, I'm sorry, it's the gas. Reverse T3's the brakes. So these two aspects of the thyroid hormone compete with each other at the cell receptor site. So someone could have plenty of free T3 and look normal on paper, but if they have more reverse T3 than they should, they can still be showing up as having real hypothyroid symptoms and be sub-clinically hypothyroid, even though their free T3 looks normal.
Kendra Perry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine Hanse: Yeah. I think that's super important to understand.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. And so how often do you see thyroid issues in your patients? Like is this something that you come across quite frequently?
Whitney Morgan: Yes. In fact, I think once in a blue moon, I see a complete panel that looks textbook normal from a functional standpoint. And that's important, because these standard reference ranges for the various things we're measuring, they're pretty wide. And so when a traditional doc's looking at them, they say, "Oh. You're fine." But looking through functional, the ones of a functional reference range, we can see this kind of sub-clinical stuff show up much earlier, and start addressing it and intervening.
Christine Hanse: Yeah. It's like when I talk to my clients, I just tell them, "People don't go and get their thyroid tested when they feel super duper cool. They go when they have issues." So it's just a statistic. It's a statistic from extreme cases, so it's extreme ranges. And just because it means that you're not an emergency, doesn't mean that it's not impacting your lifestyle. And I think that's a little bit where people get lost, because they're not an emergency, but it is impacting their lifestyle which is not the territory of our more emergency-orientated doctors. Which is fine, but I mean, that's where Functional Diagnostics is where they find their place, basically.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. And what I see quite frequently is someone might have free T3 levels that look pretty solid, and might even be at the low end of the functional range, but when you look at their ratio of reverse T3 to free T3, they're so out of balance that they're not getting the full benefit of the free T3 hormone that's circulating. Or, what I also see, is thyroid-binding globulin being too low or too high, and that's like the transporter. It's the bus that carries the thyroid hormone to its destinations for conversion or to the destination cell. The cell receptors. And if there's not enough buses moving or if there's too many buses moving, things can also get out of whack, so that's an important marker to look at. How is hormone being transported through the body? Is that happening in an efficient way?
Kendra Perry: And so I want to talk a little bit about how things kind of go wrong with the thyroid. 'Cause in the thyroid course that you created for Functional Diagnostic Nutrition that both me and Christine have done, you talk about, I think you call it the thyroid landscape or the thyroid disorder landscape. And some of the things that actually play into the thyroid going out of whack that may actually not really have anything to do with the thyroid. Can you discuss some of those?
Whitney Morgan: Sure. Well, the first thing that comes to mind ... well, the first two things that come to mind, the liver and the gut. The liver produces the binding globulin that binds to the T4 and T3 for transport, and it's the primary site of conversion, both from T4 to T3, and from T4 to reverse T3. So if there's something going on in the liver, if there's a lot of liver congestion, if there's some detox issues, just overburden issues, anything that we consider sub-par function, then that can really throw thyroid function off. And then the gut is a big contributor too, because we need healthy gut flora to really produce adequate amounts of T3. So if you've got parasites or overgrowth of opportunistic bacteria, or you've got gut damage, leaky gut, things like that, that can impact thyroid function. And then of course, the circulatory system is a contributor, because that's your highway. That's your transportation system.
Whitney Morgan: And then of course the hypothalamus. Sometimes there can be things that are going wrong on the front end either with the hypothalamus or with the pituitary, so we call that maybe a tertiary or primary, secondary, or tertiary hypothyroidism. So sometimes you can have signaling malfunctions that happen. That's the brain. And so lots of things can affect the hypothalamus, of course, and the pituitary subsequently. So you think of anything that stresses out the adrenal system. That HPA axis. That can really impact how effectively the hypothalamus and the pituitary signal the thyroid gland.
Christine Hanse: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and when you think about it that way, it kind of seems like, "Well, no wonder so many people are having thyroid disorders," 'cause who's not getting exposing to toxins? Who doesn't have gut issues? We all run gut panels, all three of us do.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: We're always seeing infections. We're always seeing parasites. We're always seeing opportunistic bacteria. And you know, I think when you're a practitioner and you're working with someone who has thyroid disorder, you do have to look at the bigger picture. Because some people, they know they have a thyroid problem, so they're like, "What's wrong with my thyroid? What's wrong with my thyroid?" But you need to kind of take off the tunnel vision and look at the things that could be causing it, 'cause it sounds like, yeah, it could have nothing to actually do with the actual thyroid.
Whitney Morgan: Oh, absolutely. It's just that that's a common test that's run in the traditional world, whereas it's pretty rare for a traditional doc to be assessing the HPA axis or looking at the gut or the liver the way that we do. So I think chronic stress is just such an issue in our modern world, and when that hypothalamus, pituitary adrenal system is out of whack, that will inhibit the signal from the pituitary to the thyroid gland. So it will inhibit that TSH, and it will bring down T4 production. If you have too much cortisol circulating, it will inhibit the conversion of T4 to T3. Also, it drives up the production of reverse T3, because the body's trying to slow itself down, keep you safe, right? So it increases the competitiveness of reverse T3 to free T3, the cell receptor site. And then it also changes the cell receptor sensitivity to T3. So it's just this cascade of dysfunction that can occur, but it's origin might be in the adrenal system, and the thyroid is where maybe it first shows up in terms of any sort of traditional tests that are run.
Kendra Perry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine Hanse: Right. Agreed. So obviously sometimes it can also be a physiological problem. So I have actually lots of clients who I then send to an endocrinologist, or for example, just say, "Look, you might really need to look into this a little bit more if I can't help enough." And a lot of them have then come back and they've been diagnosed with ... what do you call it in English? Goiters? No. Cold knots, we call it in-
Whitney Morgan: Nodules? Nodules.
Christine Hanse: I think so.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah.
Christine Hanse: Like the non-
Whitney Morgan: Non-cancerous?
Christine Hanse: Yes. Exactly. So a lot of them come back with that, and they're super confused. So what would you give them as an advice? Also, as a practitioner, you're kind of, I think it's not in all of our [inaudible 00:16:33], especially if you're a general, generic, like a health coach or a nutrition coach. What would you recommend people to tell their clients or patients?
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. Well, you know, that's a good point, because what you're bringing up, like nodules or enlargement at the gland itself, those are kind of critical things you got to deal with. But that's what I call a branch issue. It's not a root issue. So that's what's showing up, and yeah, we need to intervene, but of course, most FDN practitioners are not medical doctors. So that's something where you got to tread lightly, because traditional medicine has its own way to intervene with that kind of a situation. But I think that the key is to focus on, "Okay, while your doctor is dealing with the branch, let's deal with the root." So we need to look at nutritional factors. Are there chronic nutrient deficiencies due to, I don't know, you've been on birth control pills for 20 years. That's an issue. Do you have some mineral deficiencies? What's your iodine status? How is your liver detoxifying? Do you have a lot of gut infections that are shutting down detoxification? Do you have heavy metal toxicity?
Whitney Morgan: I mean, there's so many things that underlie all of these root issues. So even things like, hey, if someone comes back and they say, "Oh, my doctor said my TPO antibodies are 400 and something, and so my doc says we're just going to watch that." Right?
Christine Hanse: Yep!
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:18:19]
Whitney Morgan: 'Cause they have nothing to offer, right?
Christine Hanse: Yeah.
Whitney Morgan: But we know, "Okay, that means that this is an autoimmune issue where your immune system is attacking your thyroid gland. There's tissue destruction. We need to find out what the trigger is, so we're going to be running some ... we're going to look at the gut, we're going to look at food sensitivity issues. There's something that's the trigger." Right? Usually it's gluten. But it could be heavy metals. It could be gut infections. But that's where we can get a lot of work done that then those branches get healthier, because you're dealing with the soil and the roots, and the branches kind of start taking care of themselves, if that makes sense.
Kendra Perry: Oh, that makes total sense.
Christine Hanse: Beautiful metaphor. Why haven't I heard that before?
Kendra Perry: I love it.
Christine Hanse: I love it too. Makes total sense.
Whitney Morgan: It's a Chinese medicine philosophy. That's the whole basis of Chinese medicine, is root and branch. In fact, if you read anything about Chinese medicine, it's very poetic and esoteric, but they talk about the doctor being like a gardener. Of course, the branches might need a little pruning here and there, and you have to address things, but if you're not putting the majority of the attention in the soil and the roots, the tree is never going to be healthy.
Christine Hanse: Kendra, I see both of our eyes and our brains going like, "I really want to learn this [inaudible 00:19:44]."
Kendra Perry: Totally. I know, right?
Christine Hanse: [inaudible 00:19:49]
Kendra Perry: Always.
Christine Hanse: [inaudible 00:19:50] my brain is already fried, but it's on my to-do list for my next life. [crosstalk 00:19:53]
Kendra Perry: I know. I know. There just needs to be more hours in the day to take all the courses and learn everything I feel like I need to learn.
Christine Hanse: Yeah. It's like I've been attracted to that topic for so long, and it's just like, "Ugh." Yeah. [crosstalk 00:20:08]
Kendra Perry: It's very cool. And I know you know a lot about gluten sensitivity, and sort of that non-celiac gluten issue, and can you talk about how gluten can be a trigger? 'Cause I know many people who have Hashimoto's, so they have hypothyroid, and they continue to eat gluten, and I'm always like, "That's a mistake." And why would that be a mistake?
Christine Hanse: [inaudible 00:20:31] much?
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. Yeah, it is a mistake. Okay. So celiac disease is kind of a narrow, more limited form of gluten sensitivity. It's way on one end of the spectrum, right? And maybe you're looking at one percent of the population. But up to 20 or 30 percent of the population, we have non-celiac gluten sensitivity. So they don't have that gut autoimmune process going on, but there's tomato, tomahto. It really doesn't matter, because it's still both set you up for the same kinds of autoimmune disorders down the road. So what we do know, what the research is showing, is that almost half of people with gluten sensitivity of any form will manifest some type of thyroid dysfunction. And just one exposure to gluten can set off an inflammatory cascade that can last for several weeks to several months. So there's no such thing as eating a little bit of gluten, right?
Kendra Perry: Right.
Whitney Morgan: So a few things to understand about gluten. It sets the stage for gut permeability in everyone. It doesn't matter if you're sensitive to gluten or not. Gluten creates a more permeable gut because it increases zonulin production. And zonulin is that enzyme that kind of hyper-regulates the tight junctions when it's in the gut in increased amounts. Those tight junctions will kind of open up a lot. So then you get leaky gut, and you get things moving through the gut that shouldn't, like partially digested food proteins. So you've got these big food antigens going into the gut, or viruses, or metals. All kinds of stuff, right? So like all grains, also gluten has a toxic lectin in it. And so even beside the zonulin issue, all grains have these lectins that create more permeability in the gut as well.
Whitney Morgan: So in this sense, gluten is kind of like the mob boss of the grains. It's like the one that does the most damage, and it can be an exacerbating factor in all thyroid autoimmunity. In addition to that, the gluten protein, the structure of it is really big and complex and kind of clunky, and it can look a lot like other things. One thing is the thyroid. Particularly when we're talking about wheat germ agglutinin, which is the lectin part of the thyroid gland. You kind of get this double whammy, because the wheat germ agglutinin, if it gets through the gut, will actually ... it's really sticky, and it can stick to the thyroid gland. And then you get the immune system trying to destroy the wheat germ agglutinin, and in the process, it does a lot of tissue damage. But then there's also this mimicry, where gluten can start looking a lot like thyroid tissue as well, so then you have the immune system going, "Oh. I'm going to make antibodies not only to gluten, but to this thyroid thing here, because that looks way too much like gluten for me to be comfortable." Right?
Kendra Perry: Right.
Whitney Morgan: And there's almost 100 percent correlation, almost, between Hashimoto's and gluten sensitivity. And to make matters worse, most people who come to us will say, "Oh, I have hypothyroidism." Rarely do I hear, "I have Hashimoto's."
Christine Hanse: Yeah.
Whitney Morgan: But almost everyone's diagnosed with hypothyroidism. Right? But most hypothyroid cases are undiagnosed Hashimoto's cases. They just haven't been properly assessed. So when you follow that logic, it's like okay, if you have hypothyroidism, you probably have Hashimoto's. If you have Hashimoto's, you probably are gluten sensitive. No one should be eating gluten if they've got a thyroid issue. Nobody.
Christine Hanse: I think nobody here has any [inaudible 00:24:45] condition [inaudible 00:24:51]. All the clients I've had, I only had one single client who didn't show positive to food sensitivity when it came to gluten. All the others had a big red bar.
Whitney Morgan: Right. Well, and then when you jump down that rabbit hole, then there's that additional thing of, "Well, there's all of these other foods that aren't gluten, but they cross-react with gluten." So it's not just the gluten you might have to get rid of. It's the dairy, and the corn, and the yeast, and the rice, 'cause those things look too much like gluten to the immune system.
Christine Hanse: Mm-hmm (affirmative). [crosstalk 00:25:26]
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I know there's a test that ... is it the Cyrex Array 4 that tests for cross-reactive gluten sensitivity?
Whitney Morgan: Yeah, and up until recently, I pretty much used exclusively Cyrex. So the Array 3 test for gluten sensitivity, and then the Array 4 looks at all of these cross-reactive proteins. And it's an IgG, IgA looking at the whole food protein. Now I've stopped using the Cyrex because now we have the Wheat Zoomers. We have all these Zoomer tests from Vibrant Wellness. The Wheat Zoomer is great. It's cheaper than the Cyrex Array 3, and inside the Wheat Zoomer, you have an intestinal permeability panel as well. So you get a bigger bank for your buck. You can also add on the celiac genes for an additional 99 bucks if you want.
Christine Hanse: [inaudible 00:26:22]
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. They also have a Dairy Zoomer and a Corn Zoomer and a Lectin Zoomer, so like the Wheat Zoomer, these other Zoomers are looking at these foods at the peptide level, breaking them apart into all their constituent parts, so they get a more granular view of how sensitive someone might be to the little itty bitty parts of the food. Whereas IgG and IgA is just looking at kind of like the whole big bad protein. So I will run Wheat Zoomer, Dairy Zoomer, Corn Zoomer, Lectin Zoomer, and then I will add to that their 96 food panel. And that's just the basic IgG, IgA to 96 foods. If I run all of those, the only thing I'm not testing that cross-reacts with gluten, is millet. It's the only thing.
Kendra Perry: Okay. Millet's gross anyways. Who wants to eat that crap?
Christine Hanse: I know. Dog food.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. And most people don't. And it's not a common ingredient in gluten-free foods anyway. But a word of warning, because I had a very interesting experience recently where I usually run an Array 3, at least one Array 3 a year, and two Array 4s on myself a year just to make sure that everything is kosher, 'cause I have celiac disease. I've never come up positive with any cross-reactivities. So I live a primal lifestyle pretty much, but I'll have a little bit of raw, organic dairy. Small amounts. And then maybe on a Sunday or so, I'll go way off the reservation, get crazy, and have some corn chips maybe.
Christine Hanse: Oh my god! Oh my gosh!
Whitney Morgan: I know, right?
Christine Hanse: Crazy girl!
Whitney Morgan: But I figured, "Hey, I don't have cross-reactivities. I'm cool." So then I ran all these Zoomers on myself. Not only were my gluten antibodies elevated, but I was super reactive to dairy, super reactive to corn.
Christine Hanse: Wow.
Whitney Morgan: I also came up positive with a rice lectin, so I'm reactive to rice.
Christine Hanse: There's like nothing left. It's like-
Whitney Morgan: But the interesting thing is the 96 food panel that also has dairy and corn on it, I came up non-reactive on the IgG, IgA. So it just really ... it was a big "Ah ha" for me. It just goes to show you that IgG, IgA is good, but it's not enough for some people, because my level of sensitivity is such that I really need to be looking at things at the level of the peptide in order for it to show up. So now I'm a big Vibrant Wellness fan.
Kendra Perry: That's very cool. I actually have the Cyrex Array 4. I've been trying to run it from Canada with zero success. I just can't make it happen. I've had the run-around. [crosstalk 00:29:24] I've tried multiple blood draw places, and they're like, it's not ... they don't run it fast enough or something, so I'm like, "Okay." Now I'm like, "Maybe I should look into the Zoomer." But I think that's really interesting, what you say about the IgG, 'cause I see so many people ... like one of the main tests people bring to me when they start working with me is the food sensitivity test, and it's like a Great Plains lab, or an MRT or something. I'm not dissing these companies, but sometimes stuff doesn't come up. And they're like, "Oh, well, gluten didn't come up, so I'm good," and I'm like, "Mm, I don't know. You probably aren't."
Whitney Morgan: Yeah.
Christine Hanse: Let's just try to cut it out, and usually they see the reaction so quick, but yeah, it's super hard. I'm in Europe, and so getting labs over here is really difficult, especially from independent. So the one that I usually run is the ZRT, but they started to cut out RT3. Like, they're not testing it anywhere. So I don't know why. They have a disclaimer on their website. I forgot what they said, 'cause I was just annoyed and didn't read it. But it's been just a couple of months that they took that out of their panel, so I'm like, "Oh."
Whitney Morgan: Interesting.
Christine Hanse: Yeah. They're not testing that anymore.
Kendra Perry: I wonder why they'd do that. Yeah, you'd think they'd be progressing forward, not backwards.
Christine Hanse: I know. So it's ... I don't know what's happening there. But yeah, I need to find a new company that I can use for my clients up ahead. So not always easy.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I know. If you're in the US, you're good, but you're in like Canada and Europe, it's like sometimes it can be ... some things are really easy to do, but yeah, anything that requires a blood draw seems to be like pulling teeth over here.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah, and you know, what I see too is like you were saying, Kendra, people come to you with food panels. I see exclusive IgG panels. Like they're just getting the finger stick, or they're just, you know, Great Plains or whatever. And that's just half of what you need to be looking at anyway. Right? So they'll come up totally normal. "Oh, wheat's normal." Yeah, but that doesn't mean you're not having an IgA response to it. Right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Whitney Morgan: And about the MRT too, I stopped using it because ... well, for two reasons. One, you can't tell the difference between what's just an inflammatory reaction, what's an IgG or IgA reaction. Right? You can't make that distinction. And also, I've had two people who are celiac come up totally unreactive to wheat. My daughter, who's not celiac gluten sensitive, come up with unreactive to wheat. And then, I've had situations where I've had clients who absolutely know. It's like, "Hey, if I eat avocado, my throat starts to close up," and it comes up green. So it's just like [crosstalk 00:32:04]
Christine Hanse: That's not good.
Whitney Morgan: False negatives are not good, right? Particularly when we're dealing with clients who are looking for a reason to not have to take things out of their diet.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine Hanse: Yes! It's so harsh. They're like, "I can't eat anything." It's like [inaudible 00:32:20] eat stuff, you know? It's like [inaudible 00:32:22].
Whitney Morgan: Yeah.
Christine Hanse: Like, "Now my life's over." It's like, "Yeah. That's a tough one."
Kendra Perry: So Whitney, if I am a ... say I'm a health coach, and I have a client who has hypothyroid, what would be like the top three things I should be recommending to this person besides ... I think we've made a good point for getting gluten out at this point, so it's definitely one of them.
Christine Hanse: Very subtle.
Whitney Morgan: Well, yeah. I guess ... okay, so it depends. If your client is willing to do some additional testing and has some money to throw at that, then I'd want to know ... okay, I'd run a GI map to see what the gut infections are looking like. I would get a sense of metal toxicity, mineral status, whether that's an HTMA or the Quicksilver test that I like a lot as well. And I would also be looking at a micro-nutrient panel. So I want to say, "Okay, what are the nutrient deficiencies, and are there these other toxins?" You know, whether they're pathogens, endotoxins, or metals, what else is going on? It also could be that you might have to dig even deeper than that, and be looking at viruses and microtoxins. You just don't know.
Whitney Morgan: And then there are just the basic things that we know and we do every day, which is you need to remove the things from your life that are stressing out your HPA axis, right? You need to modulate that system, strengthen that system, and so all those lifestyle changes that go into that. So I would do a batch of additional testing. We always need to be looking at that root system, right?
Kendra Perry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Whitney Morgan: But let's say you've got a client who says, "I don't have any money. I can't do any of that. All I know is that I have hypothyroidism and I feel like crap." Okay. Well, I would definitely assume it's Hashimoto's. I would definitely assume that this person has a gluten sensitivity. I would put them on the AIP diet. They would have to eliminate all potentially cross-reactive foods, which if you're on the AIP, that does that, takes care of that. And they would be on glutathione. I'd check their vitamin D levels. They would be on vitamin D if necessary. Glutathione. Really high-dose fish oil. I'd have them on immune globulins, like The Microbiome now has the bovine serum immune globulins.
Kendra Perry: I love those products. They're great.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah.
Christine Hanse: I saw those too. Yeah. I couldn't get them, but I'm like, "I really want them."
Whitney Morgan: They're really good. So I would definitely do that, and then some Boswellia, some crocumin to kind of tamper down that inflammatory response. I might give them 100 micrograms of selenium, or 200 if their antibodies are elevated. So you kind of put everything together that's going to address the fundamental stuff in supporting the immune system before you even think about, "Well, am I going to do anything to encourage more T4 production?" Right?
Christine Hanse: Yes.
Whitney Morgan: Because it doesn't make sense to address the thyroid gland unless you've got all that immune system support in place. Right?
Christine Hanse: Yeah. Agreed. Yeah.
Whitney Morgan: But let's say you do. You get all that immune system support in place, and they make all those dietary changes. I would make sure they've got all the nutrients in their diet that we know contribute to adequate thyroid function, and then I would just maybe put them on a little Thyro-Gold, depending on what their numbers look like. Maybe a little Ashwagandha. Definitely some liver organ extract, 'cause it's super, super nutritious. These are just basic, fundamental things. You know? And that happens a lot. Some people, particularly if you're looking at throwing a bunch of money towards tests, and then have me throw a bunch of money at supplements, some people will just say, "I'll do whatever you tell me to do. I just need to put my money towards the supplements and the food." Right? So then I just assume the worst. I mean, really. And I'll even prophylactically treat people for parasites and bacterial overgrowth and yeast.
Whitney Morgan: Because I mean, that's what we used to do anyway. I remember a decade ago when it was just like the known thing that two or three times a year, you do a parasite cleanse. You just do that, right? So why not just do that? It's not going to hurt them, as long as you support detoxification. You support the liver. You make sure those pathways of elimination are open, and urine and stool and all of that. You do all of that, then I just prophylactically treat everything I can except for metals. I don't detox metals unless I've got hard data. That's just not cool.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, that's a dangerous thing if you're not in the right state to do it.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. Yeah. But, having said that, I will frequently put someone on the PushCatch kit from Quicksilver, and that will detox the little metals. It will bind up some metals and other things without actually actively going after stored metals. Right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I always have people on binders. I'll use a little bit of ... I don't know what's in the PushCatch, but I'll use BioCell's, so I think it's like a similar thing in the PushCatch [inaudible 00:38:13]. There's some silicon and-
Whitney Morgan: No. In the PushCatch, there's two supplements. So the push is the liver sauce, and that's got your bitters, dem, milk thistle, and R-Lipoic Acid. And then the catch is the ultra binder, and that has your Cytozen, IMD, which I believe is silica-based.
Kendra Perry: It's silica-based, yeah.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah, and your charcoal and your clay.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Whitney Morgan: And I add to that a PectaSol-C.
Kendra Perry: Mm. You know I love my supplements. [crosstalk 00:38:39]-
Whitney Morgan: -which is pectin. Then I put five drops of BioCell in there too. I just kind of like supercharge my binder.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Totally.
Whitney Morgan: I do binders every day. I mean, no matter what.
Kendra Perry: Me too. I have some PectaSol-C in my coffee.
Whitney Morgan: Yes.
Kendra Perry: That's how I always start my day.
Whitney Morgan: We need to do binders every day. It's too toxic of a world not to.
Kendra Perry: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Absolutely. I totally agree. Well, that was amazing. Honestly, that is so much information. I'm actually going to probably have to go back and re-listen to this episode and take better notes.
Christine Hanse: It was amazing.
Kendra Perry: Because yeah, that's some really actionable stuff, and some really ... because it is so common that ... you know, I have a friend who I will not name who has Hashimoto's, and they're like, "Oh, but I'm medicated for it, so it's not an issue. I'm taking Synthroid." And you're like, "Well."
Whitney Morgan: But that doesn't do anything to Hashimoto's.
Christine Hanse: Yeah, that doesn't fix it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Whitney Morgan: It doesn't do anything.
Kendra Perry: Maybe preventing you from dying, but-
Whitney Morgan: It can exacerbate some of the tissue destruction, you know, if you don't have other things in place. And another thing I wanted to mention to is simple things that practitioners can have their clients do. Stay out of swimming pools. Right?
Kendra Perry: Yes. Oh, my gosh.
Whitney Morgan: Get filters on your shower. Stay away from fluoride. Stay away from chlorine. Stay away from all of those chemicals. Those are the halogen chemicals, right? Halites, yeah.
Christine Hanse: Halites.
Whitney Morgan: That antagonize the thyroid, and actually compete with the thyroid hormone at the cell receptor site. So if you've got someone who's going to the gym every day and swimming, and they've got ... they're on, god, thyroid hormone replacement therapy, that's crazy. [crosstalk 00:40:21]
Kendra Perry: Or drinking tap water, or showering in tap water. [crosstalk 00:40:25] 'Cause if you're on municipal city water ... I mean, I'm like a broken record with this shit, but I'm always talking about the chlorine, the fluoride in your water. You're putting it into your system every day, and like you said, it competes with thyroid and pushes iodine off of the receptor, which you need [crosstalk 00:40:39] hormone. It's huge. Who's not getting exposed to that crap, right?
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. Yes, it is huge. [crosstalk 00:40:45] Then you know, just the simple things too, like B vitamins and zinc and selenium. I can't count the number of times I have clients who were on the pill for 15 plus years, and now they're dealing with hypothyroidism or Hashimoto's or whatever. It's like, "Well, yeah, of course." It's almost like a guarantee. You are going to get thyroid dysfunction if you've been on the pill for a long period of time. Just wait.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I see it all the time when I test people's minerals. Like their thyroid ratio is out of rate. Their copper toxic from all the estrogen they've been taking. And it's just unfortunate, because girls get put on it pretty young. I mean, I started taking it when I was like 15 or 16, and no one's getting the information of what it actually can do to your body if you use it long-term, unfortunately.
Whitney Morgan: No, it's the largest human experiment, right? Unregulated. Yeah.
Kendra Perry: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Oh, it's crazy. So Whitney, if people want to connect with you or learn more about you, where can they find you?
Whitney Morgan: Well, they can go to my website at sagepointacupuncture.com. Disclaimer here that I am going through a rebranding process, because I've shut down my private acupuncture practice, and I'm now doing community acupuncture at a local clinic here.
Kendra Perry: Oh, awesome. I love that.
Whitney Morgan: Yeah. I love it too. It's awesome. So now my name confuses people. I'm going to be building a new website, changing my business name. It's going to be more just focused on the functional nutrition aspect of my business, so I'm completely separating them. But I'll still point my URL to my new website, so sagepointacupuncture.com will get you to me for sure.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. And you said you're located in Tuscan, Arizona?
Whitney Morgan: Tucson.
Kendra Perry: Tucson!
Whitney Morgan: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: Awesome.
Whitney Morgan: Everyone says Tuscan that isn't from here.
Christine Hanse: Even I knew that, and I'm not American.
Kendra Perry: Whatever, Christine.
Christine Hanse: Smart ass.
Kendra Perry: Awesome, Whitney. Well, we appreciate you so much having this conversation with us. This was very enlightening, and I think our audience will love it.
Christine Hanse: It's a brain fry. [inaudible 00:42:59]
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Total brain fry, but I feel like our audience likes being overwhelmed. They're like, "I feel overwhelmed, but I kind of [inaudible 00:43:04]." And guys, if you like what you're hearing, if you like this episode, make sure to hop on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, wherever. Give us that five-star review. We will give you a live shout-out on air. We will love you, and send you lots of kisses. So yeah, if you like what we're doing, that's the best way to support the show is just give us a quick review. Takes two minutes. And that will help us reach more people. So thanks so much, guys, as always. We very much appreciate you listening to our banter, and we'll see you guys again in two weeks from today. Bye guys.
Christine Hanse: Bye.
Whitney Morgan: Thanks guys. Bye.
Kendra: Hello, hello everyone! Welcome to the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am your host, Kendra Perry, and I'm joined today with my lovely and beautiful and sexy and unbelievable cohost Christine Hansen. She's got her glass of wine because it's night time for her and she's definitely going to be going ...
Christine: Saturday night it's bad ass rock star.
Kendra: It's Saturday afternoon for me. We're working on the weekend, working hard. But we are recording this episode kind of on the fly because we have some really important information to bring to you guys and we wanted to make sure that we got it to you as soon as possible. Because if you guys follow us on Instagram @360healthbizpodcast which you definitely should if you're not and you are following our stories, you would have seen that we met in person for the very first time. That was very exciting. We were at the Social Media Marketing World Conference and it was awesome. We definitely highly recommend it. It was time well spent and we learned quite a bit at the conference, and we really want to share some of the very powerful things that we learned because we believe it will help you growing your business.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. We were really lucky. There were tons of workshops, and every workshop that we took taught us something new and we definitely would drill it down to the three most important lessons that we're going to pack together here for you. So you're getting the conference on steroids basically.
Christine: Alright so [crosstalk 00:01:32]
Kendra: Arm. Give me that conference on steroids! Don't worry. It's not appropriate.
Christine: No, but I mean, since when are we appropriate? Oh guys. You should've been with us. Seriously, the conversations we had it was just ... It was hilarious.
Kendra: It was ridiculous.
Christine: Oh it was wonderful. Let's get started. The first thing we wanted to talk to you about was actually from the keynote talk, which was on the second day. Kendra and I, we had all-access passes so we actually started a day early in comparison to just the general public, which makes me feel very posh, and the keynote, the officially keynote, was on the second day by Michael Stelzner in the morning. And I think the main ... What you can drill everything down to that we heard at the conference was that it's not bigger and better anymore but better is bigger. And I love to hear that message because I've tried a long time to get numbers. Grow your email list, grow your Facebook page, grow numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers, and it really, really has come back to that's not the point.
And we saw that in influence on marketing, for example, coming to think of it. Kendra and I, we attended a conference that was basically meant for people who are looking for influencers.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: So we were basically listening in what we should provide, as people who are looking for influencers, and a very big takeaway was that micro and nano influencer. So nano influencer would be up to ... No. What was it? Nano first [crosstalk 00:03:08]
Kendra: I think nano is [crosstalk 00:03:09] below 10, 000.
Christine: I think-
Kendra: And then ...
Christine: Micro was up to 10, 000.
Kendra: Yeah. It was something like that, but for all you people who have less than 10, 000 followers [crosstalk 00:03:18]
Kendra: On Instagram, right?
Christine: Those are actually the hot influencers that companies are looking for, because it's niched, it's not diluted, you still have authentic fans there while there's only huge, huge, Instagram accounts where engagement is not necessarily there or when not genuine interest is there. So, I found that really interesting, and the whole conversation was along that line. So one case study that we were taught was that he did an experiment about one of their videos. They have a little show where they publish weekly videos, and he published it on Facebook and he published it on YouTube and he got over 20, 000 views on Facebook but it wasn't promoted because Facebook said it didn't perform too well. And he was wondering why, so he investigated and tracked all the different steps and it turned out that out of the 20, 000 people, and it was a little bit more I think, 19. Only 19 finished the video.
Christine: But YouTube, he had a lot less people who started watching ... I think it was just 2, 000-
Kendra: But he had about 60% finish.
Christine: Exactly! So [crosstalk 00:04:26]
Christine: 68% versus 19 [inaudible 00:04:28] people, right? So, the conversion is very different. His takeaway was you need to know which platform to use for what and again, it's not about quantity.
Christine: So, I loved this because Kendra and I, this is much more an integrity for what we do.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: We both don't have massive ... 20, 50, 000 people email us, but our businesses are very successful. So, I think this was really nice to hear and basically, we both said it's confirmation that what we're doing is right.
Kendra: Yeah, and I felt like I got a lot of validation and over that couple days of "Yeah, we're doing the right things," and I loved what he said about the Facebook thing because think about when you're watching a Facebook video. There's notifications popping up. Those little notifications pop up on the left now. Facebook doesn't actually want you to stay on and watch these long form video.
Kendra: They're trying to distract you, and that's why a lot of people aren't watching the video from start to finish that maybe is a 20 or 30 minute long video because they're so distracted by everything Facebook is trying to do. Whereas your YouTube people, they're on YouTube, they go on YouTube to watch videos, they are coming in without expectation and there's no distractions for the most part, right? They just see that video. So ...
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra: I thought that was really interesting. If you're gonna put all your effort into editing and creating this beautiful video series, it's probably gonna do way better on YouTube and you're probably gonna create better relationships that way than on Facebook.
Christine: It's definitely going to perform better. I mean, the science is there and also the statement that Mark Zuckerberg did was basically that they don't want people to waste time on social media, which is hilarious as he's running Facebook, but that was his statement. That they want to encourage people not to mindlessly idle on social media. So they want to be more targeted, they really want to perform more quality content, and they don't want people to just zone out and watch cat videos anymore. So, no basically.
Kendra: I know that's super fun to do.
Christine: Do tell that to the Dodo. The Dodo page is my downfall. I spend hours crying whenever I go to-
Kendra: Oh no! Why? What is it?
Christine: The Dodo is about rescue animals of all [crosstalk 00:06:43]
Christine: Animals and rescue and stories of ... It's just like ... Aw, dude. It's such a ... Just this vortex of cute.
Kendra: Oh my god.
Christine: But I love it. So, in general, Facebook's trying to not make you do that. So, that was a big takeaway.
Christine: Lessly in terms of marketing, but also in terms of really look at the platform tries to do and it's not about quantity anymore. It really, really isn't. So that was-
Kendra: Yeah, and I think what does better on Facebook too is the live video He did talk about that because if you're on a live video, you can actually be engaging with your people. It's not just you talking at people, and Facebook really wants you to engage. They want you to have meaningful conversations. So, you can't do that if you just make a beautiful video and dump it out onto your Facebook page, but if you're on there live, then you can actually be having those conversations with people as that video unfolds. So ...
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Way better place for live video.
Christine: Exactly. Consistently, live video seems to be the secret sauce and he gave the example of ... What's her name? Rachel Hollis? Is that her name?
Kendra: I believe so. Yeah.
Christine: She's doing a coffee video-
Kendra: Oh yeah.
Christine: Every morning, and she has thousands and thousands of people interacting with her. Definitely not something that I would do, but as an example that it works.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: So ...
Kendra: Yeah. Totally.
Christine: Very interesting. Then, the second workshop or actually, the first workshop that we did ... The first day, they were 90 minutes ...
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: They were really definitely more hands-on-
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: Was by and now, I'm super embarrassed because I don't remember his name.
Kendra: His name was Park Howl-
Christine: There we go.
Kendra: And it was about storytelling, and yeah. That was another really common theme in the conference was tell stories. People love to hear stories. So how can you wind your story or your clan's stories into your marketing, into your copy, into the way that you're engaging with people? And during that workshop, he actually taught us how to create our own stories. So it was very actionable, and we really loved that. We both created stories. We actually created a story for this podcast while we were in San Diego.
Christine: Oh yeah. We did. Where did we-
Kendra: Yeah. Yeah. We did, and he was a great speaker. I really loved how he brought in so many components and different media and humor and it was really great, but his kind of formula for storytelling ... A good story is the ABT, which is the 'and, but, therefore' framework, right?
Christine: Yeah. Exactly. So, we actually ... Do you have our story on hand?
Kendra: Yeah. I do. I'm gonna read [crosstalk 00:09:18] it right now.
Christine: Also, the ands, buts, therefore. So you have three paragraphs, and every good story ... And he gave examples of Air B and B having an ad. It was a cartoony kind of thing, and it was super nice about the Berlin Wall and how it brings people together. Air B&B and stuff. It was exactly that structure, and he gave a lot of examples and it's short, but it's super efficient and you can use it on your website, you can use it in your videos, you can use it everywhere. So, this is the example of what we came up for; the and, but, therefore.
Kendra: Okay. So it's both of us were working successfully in our health practices, and we really connected over the marketing component of our businesses after running a webinar series together on public speaking. But, we also discovered that selling health is very different than selling other products and other types of services, and most health coaches and professionals are taught an outdated business model; one that fails to get them clients without burning out. Therefore, we created the 360 Health Biz Podcast to teach health coaches and professionals how to use health specific marketing strategies that actually work and keep them up to date with the latest health research.
Christine: I love it. You know, that should be our intro. It's so good.
Kendra: Yeah. It is so good. We could probably tailor it down a little bit, but yeah. You get that ... So we have that first thing, which is our statement. This is our statement about re- [crosstalk 00:10:44] us, our relationship, how we met, and then that but. But we found that there was this issue. There was this problem. There was this struggle.
Christine: The struggle.
Kendra: Therefore, we created the solution, right?
Christine: Which is us, right?
Christine: Exactly, and if you want to go more into depth, he also says the story elements, if you really want to make sure you don't miss anything, it's the when, the where, the who, the what, and the ah-hah, right? So, and he had a 10 step method that he talks about. So, what makes it different, and then, they are the hero of the story when you talk about your customers. It's not about you. It's about them, what they stand to gain or lose by not working with you, what has happened or is happening in their lives right now that is changing, that is making your service more timely urgent and relevant than ever before. Competitive, time, money, voice of fear that keeps them from working with you. So objection. Then, reinforcing that you are the mentor so how you are uniquely equipped by wisdom et cetera. What do people tell themselves about you that you need to be able to connect with? What does their success look like? Those little milestones, so that they can picture it. What in the stories are our, your values, beliefs that they share? And then, what is your ask? What to do next?
So that's basically, in a nutshell, the structure that he taught us afterwards in a more detailed example. So you have all of that right here, so take not. But ... Fantastic. I really think that if you get that done, whether it is in a blog post, whether it is in your mission statement video, whether it is on your about page, you are on the golden side. I think this is super, super important.
Kendra: Yeah. And I think it just makes it easier for yourself. Suddenly, you know how to talk in your marketing, and you can continue to share that story over and over on different platforms, to different subcategories in your audience and I think ... When you know what your story is, when you know what your values are, when you know what you stand for and how people can change their lives by connecting with you and buying your product or service, I mean, it makes everything a lot easier.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: Gulp. Gulp.
Kendra: Well, yeah, yeah. I'm getting a little cut right now.
Christine: When [inaudible 00:13:22] it's a nice line people. It was nice ... The minute [inaudible 00:13:28] right here. Alright. So that was storytelling, and then, connecting to that, we went to another workshop about Instagram stories because both of us really started to fall into the vortex of Instagram stories. It's hilarious. It's so much fun, but it's also super, super powerful, and so we were basically taught there's different components to Instagram stories. And she divided it into four buckets, and we were in a workshop that basically looked at one. So, can you remember the four buckets?
Kendra: So, I think the four buckets was Instagram in general. So it was Instagram live, it was the feed, it was IGTV, and it was stories. So, Instagram is kind of a beast and it's almost a bit of an overwhelming platform because you have four different of these pretty big buckets right, and they all ... The way you interact in each of hem is a little bit different, right? Your feed is gonna be more curated, more pretty, gorgeous pictures, really nice captions. Your IG live is more like your instant connection, really off the cuffs, but then it disappears after 24 hours. And then, you have your IGTV, which is longer form video. You get 10 minutes if you're under ... If you're not an approved account. So under 10K, but that's kind of your longer form video better for teaching, but then we have stories, right? And stories, like Christine said, are very powerful because they ... A lot of people are watching stories.
More people on Instagram than any other of those buckets are going into the stories, and it's a great way to connect, it's a great way to be creative, it's a great way to really express your brand. So, we were learning a lot about how to specifically use stories to build a brand, but also, by using all the different features. And one big thing that she said, and this was a talk from Susan Urman. I like her. I loved her crazy dress and she was really fun and-
Christine: Fun. Yeah.
Kendra: Animated. She was great, but she says to have a plan for your story. So ...
Christine: Which we are so bad [crosstalk 00:15:26] at. Both of us looked at each other. Oh.
Kendra: We're just like bam, bam, bam, bam, but you know ... And that plan doesn't always have to be this big, educational piece. Sometimes that plan might just to be to share something from your personal life. But keep in mind that you should be trying to tell a story with it rather than just bam! Me eating. Bam! Me biking. Bam! Meal with my kid, or whatever, right? Actually trying [crosstalk 00:15:52] sequentially. Maybe in four of those posts, tell a story.
Christine: Exactly. It might be that you are getting ready to put on your gear to bike. Then it might be your journey up the mountain, and then it might be a little snippet of you racing down, and then it might be a snippet of you in the hospital you know?
Kendra: I'll just take that selfie of myself as I race down the mountain on my mountain bike. We'll see how that goes. It will be like me eating shit and breaking my face [crosstalk 00:16:17] I'm gonna give it a go.
Christine: Me and my broken face. But you get the caption.
Kendra: Yeah. Totally.
Christine: And I'm trying to be more mindful now when I do the Instagram stories. Just is this worth sharing? Is this worth wasting people's time on, even if I do really like it?
Kendra: Wasting your own time too. It takes time to upload these. These are not things that you can schedule out in advance, right?
Christine: No you can't.
Kendra: But you know, Christine, you made that story that I saw at the airport from when your flight got canceled, and I was blown away. I was like, "Holy shit! That was really good. She just crushed that story." And I was like, "How did you even do that?" It looked so good. It was a quality story. You even mentioned ECAM. You even got a good mention of the brand, which we now know that ECAM is a three-person company. So we're all up on them.
Christine: We adore them.
Kendra: We adore them [crosstalk 00:17:15]
Christine: Very nice. Yeah.
Kendra: But yeah. I was like, "Wow! I need to take lessons from you now."
Christine: So let me tell you the story, actually, for you guys. So my flight was originally in the evening from San Diego to London, and then I had just about an hour layover, and then London Luxembourg. And in the morning, thank god I got an email or a notification that my flight in the evening was canceled, which would mean that my layover would only have been 17 minutes, which would have been impossible. It's too big. There's no way. So I called British Airways and I was re booked, but the only way that I could do this was if I had to go from L.A. So basically, I recorded my ode to stay from San Diego to Los Angeles and beyond, and it was not easy to get there because it was Sunday. I'm a little bit posh. So I didn't want to take the Am Track. It took me five Lyft and Uber drivers to actually find one who took me because they were like, "It's too far. I don't have time."
Thank you Vincent from San Diego. Lyft driver. You are forever my savior, and basically, what I did was along the journey, I just took little snippets of the coast or of the environment or of wherever we were driving past and I used the following: So, when we were in the workshop, we were told that you should always use ... If you can, you should use the same filter, if you do use a filter. I don't so I didn't do that, and color. So I already decided on a color palette that reflects my branding, which is mainly pink. Bright pink, dark pink, and green. So I tried to stick to that. If you can, you can also use the same font. I tried ... I have two that I use mainly, and use stickers, use polls, location stickers, hashtag stickers, mention as much as you can, and swipe up if possible.
And so ... And tag strategically and so forth. And so, I did that. I really tagged ... So obviously, I tagged every location. I used the location sticker wherever I went. So I actually got into stories of these locations. So, into San Diego's story. So when they see that ... When you tag location stories or when you take your location, they will pull you out and put you into their feed, which is super cool.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: And then, I used GIF all the time to make it fun. And I mentioned ECAM because I have their stickers on my laptop now, so I just used that when I was in the business lounge, and you can basically see my journey through ... Along the coast, because he took the scenic route to LAX, to the business lounge, into the plane, and it was a story. It was just my journey and it was live and it took ... It takes three hours to get there. So it was fun to do. That said.
Kendra: Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: So that worked, and there are different tricks that you can use to change the background color and all of these things. You can find them on YouTube. It's not that difficult to do, actually. But it really changed my opinion of stories, because you can get super creative and she compared it to scrap booking.
Christine: And that's a little bit what it is, because you want everything to be nice and fun and also, to typically make use of it. So, I'm really trying to each time, find a hashtag, mention someone if I can, and to use the location ... What's it called? Location sticker, I guess.
Kendra: Yeah. Just like where you tag the locations, but yeah. I think that's really cool, and I mean, it is a really cool place where you can engage and you should try to engage. One that I use all the time is the poll functions. You can ask little questions and people can vote. So that gets people to engage in your stories, and then there's also an Ask Me Anything sticker as well. So after you tell a story, you could've said, "Ask me anything about working from the road," or "Ask me anything about whatever you just told your story about" and then people can go in and they can ask you question and you can repost those stickers and have a quick video of you talking and answering the question or you can just do a text version of that.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra: That's really cool too, and I see a lot of bigger accounts using that quite a bit. And people get really excited. I have a colleague who has an Ask Me Anything Tuesday or something like that, so people know that every Tuesday, they can go and ask her anything and then she's gonna answer all the questions. So I think, there's a lot of really cool ways you can engage your audience.
Christine: Yeah, and also something that you suggested, and I haven't checked it out yet but it's the Unfold app?
Kendra: Oh yeah.
Christine: It's called Unfold [crosstalk 00:21:52]
Kendra: What was that about?
Christine: I have it in my notes. I don't remember what it is to be honest. It's use the Unfold app, and I think it's that you can actually use in your stories, you can use a grid.
Christine: So that you can use more than just the video; that you can actually use four pictures in [crosstalk 00:22:09]
Kendra: Oh yeah. I've seen that. I've seen that. That's cool. Okay.
Christine: Yeah. So that's a little tidbit here of wisdom that I took in my notes. I took notes guys. I never took notes. I feel ... It goes to show that I would've forgotten everything if I hadn't taken notes and ... Oh yeah! And also, use older posts and share them in story. And I think that's amazing because I was thinking I have so many posts. I have my interviews three years ago when I was an entrepreneur on fire. I never use it. Why not? You know? Use it in your stories. Just take the graphic, use it, say 'link in bio' for that day, and it's true. You have so much content and because it's only there for 24 hours, you can repurpose so much.
Kendra: You can repurpose it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, and I know this is not from Social Media Marketing World but it is from the su- We saw Chalene Johnson who used to be the Beachbody lady and now she has her podcast, I believe is Build Your Own Tribe, but her son, Brock, does some episodes and he said ... Oh my gosh. I'm brain farting. And it's gone from my brain.
Oh no! No I got it. It's back. When you do an Instagram live, it only stays for 24 hours, but you can save the Instagram live and put it onto IGTV. So I thought that was cool because then you're doing-
Kendra: If you're gonna take that time to do a live video. It's a period after 24 hours, you might as well repurpose it somewhere else.
Christine: Exactly. Yeah. And I actually mindlessly did Instagram live for different things. I was like, "Okay. This is not worth people's time." You know? So, in the end ... For me, in the beginning, Instagram was my personal life. I used Facebook for professional reasons. I have Instagram to push my [inaudible 00:23:58] and what I had for breakfast, and it completely changed to be honest. Because now, I consider myself as an influencer and I need to curate and prune my Instagram versus my Facebook private page. It's just that's where I now post my personal stuff and my Facebook business page nobody watches anyway, but that's where my business content goes as well.
Christine: I think the dynamics between Facebook and Instagram have completely flipped. Not for everyone, but for a lot of people.
Kendra: Yeah. I'm the same way as you. I used to use Facebook like crazy. I barely even use my personal page anymore. Sometimes, I go on there and ask for recommendations but I barely post anything on there, but I love Instagram. I am on it all the time. It's more engaging. More people. You get more reach, and from a business perspective, there's so many ways you can reach people on it, and it's tough with a Facebook business page, right? It's not an engaging platform, right? It's just [crosstalk 00:24:55]
Christine: You're literally set up for ... Not necessarily completely, but I think it's more difficult and you have to be very smart about it. And again, get you to not be bigger is better and we saw that's what brings us to our last point that we want to share with you. We saw the absolutely, fantastic, amazing ...
Kendra: We have two points left, by the way.
Christine: We do?
Kendra: Our second last ... Yeah. We have to talk about Pat Flynn.
Christine: Yeah. See. So ... Oops. [crosstalk 00:25:24]
Kendra: That's why I'm here. That's why I'm here.
Christine: Thank goodness for you guys. But we watched Amanda Bond, who I adore and I signed up for her Facebook app called ... And she basically just did the gist on their presentation.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: What her main message is, and we're going to go into it in a little bit more detail, but it's that you cannot just tell people to opt into anything anymore. You cannot [inaudible 00:25:49] code audience, even if it means it's only asking for their email address.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: So her strategy is that you really have to thought backwards. Your sell or your ask, even if ask, it's not even to sell something is the last thing you do. So, she starts out with just an engagement ads. Just making a statement, polarizing, asking questions. Maybe say that there's a blog post about it, but then she doesn't even do it in the ad. She does it in the comments.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative) [crosstalk 00:26:22]
Christine: She doesn't cling to it.
Kendra: Literally just looking for it. Even ask a question to your audience that makes sense. If you are a food preparation expert, you can ask people what are your biggest issues with food prep or do you prefer to food prep on Sunday night or Friday night or whatever, right? Because then you can also get some more information about your audience that is ... It makes sense, but you know, at the same time, you're just getting people to engage and getting out in front of them. Seeing them, be like, "Hey. This is me."
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra: Just kind of starting to plant those seeds, and so that was her engagement ad.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra: And then, what were her other two? There was testimonials and objections, right?
Christine: Exactly. So testimony is where where she literally used testimonials from past clients, screenshots. It works really well for her if she uses Facebook app, obviously, because she can literally take a screenshot of the power editor and show results and then objections. She always has a sequence of three.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: So, if you've seen the first one, then you get the second one, and then you get the third one. So she's really ... Every category from engagement to testimonial to objection has three ads. So it's nine in total, I believe. If I remember correctly, but it's very strategic, and she explains other strategies that she uses. And I think it makes complete sense, and again, it's not about the more it is. It's about being strategic, it's being personal, it's story related, it's not ... Old school marketing is just not working anymore and when I talk old school, I mean five years ago.
Kendra: Yeah. Old school ... It doesn't take long to become old school in today's world and online marketing. You know, just because you can get a cheap cost per lead when you're running a Facebook ad doesn't mean that's a high quality lead. That doesn't mean that that someone who's even gonna open your email and download your freebie or your lead magnet or whatever that is. That doesn't mean they're gonna end up buying eventually. So, I think I love her strategy because it builds that know like and trust factor for a fairly long time. So by the time she's actually asking people to do something, and I thought it was really interesting that she doesn't even use lead magnets. Right? She just sends people the sequence of blog posts, which I think is really cool, but if you are using a lead magnet, by the time ... If you're doing this sort of strategy where you're getting them to engage, you're showing them the testimonial and how you've helped other people, you're dealing with their objections to what they might have for your product or service.
By the time you're asking them to get on your email list, they might be super stoked to get on your email list and get your freebie. So they're more likely to open that email, they're more likely to actually use and finish your freebie, and then they're way more likely to stay on your email list and engage on your list, right? And eventually, buy, right? Because I've had this issue too. I'm really good at getting a low cost for leads with my Facebook ads. I'm pretty good at that, but I have noticed ... This didn't always used to be the issue, but in the past year, a lot of those leads, they're just not that-
Christine: High convert.
Kendra: High quality. They don't convert. They just want the free thing and then they're gone.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's like the phenomenon with quizzes and for some time, if we quiz, it was the opt in thing when it's been over and over again shown that while you have the biggest opt in, it converts like a motherfucker when you do it in terms of people finding opts, but at the end of the funnel, you don't have conversion when it comes to paying money. So quizzes, whenever I hear someone saying, "I just did a quiz. I want to do a quiz." It's like, don't do it. You will be so disappointed. You will have to pay for your leads, even if they're not expensive, you have to pay for your email provider because your list will grow and you have to pay for those people and they will not buy.
Christine: They will more likely report you as a spammer getting you into trouble with your email provider rather than even spend 27 bucks on a product of yours. So, that's a little bit of takeaway that I've seen and what she taught was totally aligned with that.
Kendra: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. I had a quiz or something like a self assessment or something like that that I did under the advice of a coach and it got me really cheap leads. It converted really well, but it just didn't ... Those people didn't even open my email.
Kendra: They didn't open my emails and I ended up deleting a lot of them and I paid big money for them.
Kendra: Yeah. So, when you think about it, when you're kind of scrolling on your Facebook feed and there's a quiz, you may not have that issue but you're like, "Oh, I'm just interested. I just want to see how I do on the quiz," and they you're done, right?
Christine: Yeah. Like, "Don't bother with me your product you slime ball," right? And I get people. I really do. So nowadays, it's like, "Ugh. I don't even want to click on it because I know I'll have to give away my email address, which I don't want to do." So that was definitely an interesting talk and I suggest you check out Amanda. She's fantastic.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: And then, the last point we want to talk about I remembered is Pat Flynn. So check out Pat Flynn with his podcast ... What is it? Passive Income ... Not Passive Income? More Passive Income ...
Kendra: Yeah. Smart Passive Income. Yeah.
Christine: Smart Passive Income. He is a phenomenal speaker. He's launched a product on Kickstarter, which is like a tripod. It's basically an alternative to the Jobe [crosstalk 00:31:53]
Kendra: Yeah the gorilla.
Christine: Tripod, which I'm using mine here. You're using it as well? I'm using mine here, but yeah. I have my issues with it too. But their using [inaudible 00:32:04] and it's been very successful, but he talked about how they did it. What their process was like, and in a nutshell, what they did was they really went ... You can imagine it like a sweet, and they would make sure they had green lights all the way and the way that they did it was by talking to people. So they went to conferences where vloggers hung out, people who used it. They showed them a couple models, they showed them the idea, they asked them what they wanted, what they needed. And so, once they knew what they wanted, they did the prototype and then they would just ... Every step before they basically spend money in a way, they would make sure that the idea was revalidated.
Christine: And it's a massive success already.
Kendra: Yeah. It is, and it's actually ... It looks like a really good product, but yeah. And he talked a lot about having those real conversations. The way they ended up creating it was talking to people, right?
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra: They were talking to people and hearing that this Gorilla pod just wasn't ... It was annoying. It would blah, blah, blah. It didn't do this. It lacked this. It was good for this but not this sort of thing. And you know, and we were kind of talking before we started recording about sort of the full circle of marketing, right? Because back in the day before this big online beast, people marketed through networking and having conversations with people, and then we got online and we stopped doing that for a while. And it worked for a few years, but these days, it's coming back around where people don't buy from brands. They buy from people. If you want to be successful, you have to know your people. You have to talk to them. You have to have those conversations and develop those relationships. So it is all coming very full circle and I really love that.
Christine: Exactly, and we're going to add a point here because I'm just reading my notes and this is from the influencer conference that we-
Kendra: Oh yeah.
Christine: Went to, and quote ... It doesn't make sense, but they want to ... Influencer services are important to engage with brand customers because brand can't compete with amateurs. Fact.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: Because people tell stories that brands can't.
Christine: People tell stories because they use it in their every day life, and a brand can't do it. If you have an ad created by a brand, it can do whatever it wants to. It's not the same thing as a real life person telling that story. So, influencers understand the audience. Companies usually only create content about the company-
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: But that is not social media.
Christine: And I find it very true. Very often ... I can see it in Luxembourg a lot of the time. PR agencies in Luxembourg are so old school. They don't know what brand experience really is and I find they really lack that connect that people are craving nowadays. And that's the job of an influencer; it's creating word of mouth in social media. So ... And they really say social media should be about collaboration and not just marketing.
Christine: So, it's the democratization of media influence, which-
Kendra: Ooh. I love it.
Christine: Very, very smart. So those are just a couple of things that we took away from this but I think it ties in, again, that if you are a big brand, in the end, people want to connect. They do want the touch for sure, but in the end, a lot of people ... The first thing that they will do is they're going to look for reviews, they're gonna look for what is happening in life, and ultimately, only real people can tell that story.
Christine: So again, it's coming ... Boiling down to people and I think we are more people-centered than we've been in a very long time.
Kendra: I think so too, and I think that yeah. Just with the fact that so many people are really busy and so many people are on social media, we've really gotten disconnected. So people want to connect again. They really want to know people, and a big reason why brands are looking for these micro influencers because you know, not only are they way more likely to work harder, because they're trying to build themselves too, right? They're not just some Hollywood influencer who's whatever, but it's [crosstalk 00:36:22]
Christine: Anyone. [crosstalk 00:36:25]
Kendra: Watch that on Netflix.
Christine: You have to watch it on Netflix, and you know, that's what ... I think that was a huge wake up call in terms of that ... The huge influencers. Not necessarily the best value for your money.
Kendra: Yeah. Totally, and I think, with your ... Just having smaller businesses; this is great, because if you're new to your business or you're mid-level, you probably don't have a really big following and that's okay. You don't need to ever have one. Me and Christine have very small social media followings. We have very small lists. We're successful. We can generate large amounts of money when we want to, and it's because we put the time in to get to know our people, to get to know our niche, and know who we're talking to. And when you know your people, you know what to create for them, honestly.
Christine: Exactly. Speaking to your brand, it's about being an expert in your field. I mean, I work with brands as an influencer and it's because I know my shit, right? Because they know that if they have a journalist who wants to do a piece on their product, they can send me because I can talk about the product but I can also talk about the research behind it. I can talk about the theory behind it. I can talk about the science behind it, and I have tested it. So I can talk about my experience behind it. And that's this full 360 package that you can't get if you just send a media kit right?
Kendra: Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: And I think nobody should be too shy to do that if your niche is important. Whatever your niche is, trust in it. Get out there. Present it. Every piece of media, you can use it. You just need to be creative and think out of the box.
Kendra: Yeah. Absolutely, and even though if you feel like you're small beans, there might be someone ... And you want to work with brands. There may be a brand that's looking for someone just like you.
Kendra: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Christine: So, whoa baby. That was a lot! That was my glass of wine destroyed.
Kendra: That was awesome.
Christine: It was a great episode this one. I have to say.
Kendra: It was a good episode, and we really recommend that conference. We really learned a lot, and we really wanted to kind of give you the conference on steroids.
Christine: You should join us next year. We should do a 360 [crosstalk 00:38:44]
Christine: Podcast kind of tribe getaway.
Kendra: Yeah we can just have a meetup. Totally.
Christine: Together. Yeah.
Kendra: I love it. Yeah, it's really fun to connect with people in person, right? Because we're so much behind our screens. I'm in a tiny little town. No one here ... They're like, "So what do you do?" I'm like, "I'm not even gonna bother telling you." You're all gonna look at me like I have three heads. So ...
Christine: And I took a fifth Uber, you guys. [crosstalk 00:39:10]
Kendra: That was so fun.
Christine: Kind of has a whole new world.
Kendra: Oh my god. It blew my mind. Uber Eats, Uber. I guess we use Lyft more than Uber, but I was like, "This is awesome, because my ... I don't love the city, but one of my biggest issues of the city is it's so hard to get around. If you rent a car, I'm stressed out driving because I don't know where I'm going. You take transit, it takes forever. Cabs are so expensive. So it's just ... You know, I don't love the experience, but the day that we were apart, which was crazy that we were apart for today, but I was in three Ubers just cruising around. I went there, there, there. I just would go on Google and what should I do next? Oh! Kombucha brewery? Yes please! And I'd book a Lyft to there.
Christine: Oh it was a great time. I mean, yeah. It was a good, good event and San Diego is always nice especially in the winter or when it's just not spring yet. It was lovely, so we're definitely going to check in again next year and we're hoping that you will join us. So, let us know if this has been helpful.
Kendra: Yeah. It was super good.
Christine: And give us feedback. Check out our Instagram stories that are going to be super branded and super nice.
Kendra: Yeah, and [crosstalk 00:40:24] Listening to your episode on your smartphone, screenshot this episode, share it on Instagram stories, tag 360 Health Biz Podcast, and we will share it in our stories because we love Instagram stories now. So you should probably do that.
Christine: Yeah. Let's do a quick post for the Instagram story. Well cute. We do very great poses. So anyways, nevermind. We will watch out for our tag on Instagram stories, and yeah. That's it for us today.
Kendra: Bye everyone.
Christine: Bye. Oh shit.
Kendra: I'll make sure that's edited out.
Tools mentioned in this episode:
https://amberdugger.com/ - Profitability Calculator
I Will Teach You to be Rich - Ramit Sethi
Tapping Into Wealth - Margaret Lynch
Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself - Joe Dispenza
About Amber Dugger:
Amber Dugger is the founder of Budget Alchemy, a system developed for health coaches to end the stress and anxiety around numbers. It is a holistic system combining personal finance and business cash flow strategies using Profit First and YNAB (You Need a Budget). She has helped dozens of coaches implement this system and helped hundreds more calculate revenue goals that actually make sense! She is a certified health coach from IIN and worked in corporate finance for 15 years before venturing out on her own in 2015 and thrives on being location independent. She loves traveling, wine, bicycles, knitting and a good cup of tea (in England) and coffee (in Italy).
Contact Amber Dugger:
Christine H.: Hey everyone, and welcome to this episode of the 360 Health Biz podcast. And today, its me! Your host, Christine Hansen and the adorable, wonderfully beautiful partner of mine Kendra Perry! At 6:00 AM and still she looks beautiful.
Kendra Perry: Oh my god, it's the zoom filter that's making me look good right now.
Christine H.: And, we also have a very special guest today who saved my life Amber Dugger. So I'm really excited because we're going to talk hardcore money today. It's a topic that makes us shiver, shake in our boots, but it is actually something that we need to get a grip on. Now before we do that, if you love the topic, if you think we're cute and funny and intelligent and smart and everything, then obviously please leave us a review on Itunes. A five star review would be amazing. And as a thank you, you can head over to our website 360healthbizpodcast.com and you can get a free gift which is a complete tool kit full of [stuff] that we love to use, online tools, you name it, everything is in there with an explanation and sometimes coupon codes. So go and check it out, it's entirely free.
Now, to introduce you to Amber. So Amber is the founder of Budget Alchemy a system developed for health coaches to end the stress and anxiety around numbers. Amen. And I will tell you a story about that. It is a [holistic] system combining personal finance and business cash flow strategies using profit first and YNAB which stands for You Need a Budget. She has helped dozens of coaches, including myself, implement this system and helped hundreds more calculate revenue goals, that actually make sense. She's a certified health coach from IIN and worked for corporate finance for 15 years before venturing out on her own in 2015, and she thrives on being location independent. She loves traveling, wine, I like that, bicycles, mixing and a good cup of tea in England and coffee in Italy. I love that.
Kendra Perry: Great bio!
Christine H.: Absolutely it is [inaudible]. Amber and I met because I hired her. Basically I saw her because a friend of mine, [Meryl] was talking about how she was actually getting a grip of her money, was able to calculate, predict, how much money she needed and then things really started to happen much easier. It was much easier to plan, to manifest, whatever you want to call it. And at the time, I think I felt like a lot of us do, I was in my business, I knew that I had money in the bank account but I never really knew how much. I refused to look at my bank statements, I just ignored looking into my bank account unless I needed to wire money and had to take a look at it. And it was just a scary thing, right. Especially at the beginning of your business when things are not as rosy, and when it's tough. Sometimes, we can be very good at ignoring our numbers.
So I reached out to Amber because I knew we have to get a grip on this right, because also our personal finances, everything was okay, we had savings. But I remember that my husband at that time he had paid our bills first and our mortgage was supposed to go out afterwards, and usually it was the other way around, mortgage would always go out and we would pay the bills with whatever was left over. So this time, he had already paid the bills, which meant the bank couldn't take out all of our mortgage because we didn't have enough money in that bank account and that freaked me out. I was like, “There's no way, the mortgage is the holy thing. There's no way that we cannot pay the mortgage.” And we could, but we had to dip into savings. So that was the point where I was like I need to become an adult and actually know how much money do I need to make. How can I prepare myself for tax seasons? How can I not stress about this thing?
And so I reached out to Amber and she completely changed my world. So Amber tell us a little bit about... I think I'm a typical story of people that you work with, I imagine, but tell me, the people who are listening, a little bit about how people start off with you and what you do in order for us to get to where you actually have a plan and feel comfortable with money, kind of thing
Amber Dugger: Sure, well first of all I wanna just thank you both for having me on. This is just such an honor to be here. I'm really excited to talk with your listeners and learn more about what it is that they may be getting stuck with as well.
This is such a common topic and it's a topic that hasn't been spoken about been spoken about for a very long time. We've been very silent about our personal anxieties, struggles, shame, guilt around money and that time has come to an end. It is time for us to start speaking openly about this so that we can move past it. We have the most amazing talents and abilities. We are motivated and we are ready to just take on the world, right. We have these awesome businesses. We can make great money and now its time to figure out exactly how to start keeping some of it.
Budget Alchemy was the original name; it's now Profit For Keeps. So anyone that's looking for it, just make sure to look for Profit For Keeps. I named it that for a reason and that is because we wanna be able to actually see some evidence of the success in our business and we also then wanna move to something called Profit For Joy.
Money is truly just a resource and we have all of these thoughts about it being very complicated and there's a reason for that. It's not because in the last 40 years we became completely illiterate about money. It's the environment that has changed. So in the past we would have cash. Everyone had cash and it was very easy to determine if we could afford something, because if we didn't have enough cash, we wouldn't pay for it right? [crosstalk] And of course in some ways it allowed us to not get into debt, but at the same time, it also allowed us to know exactly where we were all the time with money. And there's a psychological exchange when you hand over money and then you receive something back, you have exchanged value in tangible terms. It makes sense right? But if you hand over a card, and then you buy the thing, and then they give you back your card and the thing, you've now just rewarded yourself.
Kendra Perry: Yeah
Amber Dugger: Right, because it's a little switch
Kendra Perry: Its true.
Amber Dugger: And since we've started using electronic payments, consumer debt has skyrocketed and its because we don't see it. Paying 25$ on card seems very different than paying 25$ in cash.
Kendra Perry: Yes.
Amber Dugger: And the creditors know this, they use psychology. Their main goal is to rack up as much balances as possible, so they can then get the interest. So you have this whole industry against the consumer, wanting to make money off of them.
At the same time we now have this new way of paying for things, like our phone, where we just wave a magic wand, or use our watch and wave that right. So now we're not even giving anything away and we're still receiving stuff.
So for any of you listening that you're feeling like, "Oh I'm so guilt... I feel so much shame around the debt that I carry." I want you to first remind yourself that you're in an environment where it is absolutely normal to have debt, and an industry that wants and encourages it.
So that's the first thing, the second thing is it's really important to refrain the debt that you currently have; if you have any. And the reason for that is, it has gotten you to this exact point right now. So to change the attitude around it and look at it with gratitude and say, "This has gotten me my education, this has gotten me exactly where I am right now and it has leveraged me to allow myself to be here and I'm not ready to take the next step forward to create my own leverage for myself." And there's just some small tweaks to make that happen and everyone, I truly believe everyone is good with money they just haven't found a system, possibly, that helps them feel empowered with the numbers. So I'm all about just making numbers super approachable simple, and tied directly to what it is that really brings you and those that love joy.
Kendra Perry: Oh wow, I love that. And it's so true, I never even thought of that exchange of energy because I'm pretty bad for buying everything on Amazon prime. I'm just like, “Ooh that, that, I need that, I need this, I need this!” And then I look at my credit and I'm like what the hell did I buy this month? There's Amazon prime 30 times. [crosstalk]
Christine H.: You just see Amazon, Amazon, Amazon. What was it [crosstalk] I don't even remember.
Kendra Perry: I like blacked out and now I have hundreds of different types of paperclips.
Amber Dugger: The same goes for Target. For a lot of people Target can be that black hole of just amazing stuff, but like what did I buy at Target that's 300$.
Yeah, so to answer your question about where people start, I think it's important regardless of where you are in business. If you're making your first thousand a month or your making 100 thousand a month. Its important to take a step back and first ask yourself, “Why did I go into business for myself? What is it that I truly wanna do with the money that comes into my business?” Assume you're paying your bills, assume that you have no debt, assume that you have savings. These are all possible things. But once you get to that point, what is it that you want to accomplish, what is it that you want to experience, what is it that you want to change, to impact? These core things can happen, they can be realized, and the only way it will happen is to get really clear on that.
A lot of times when I speak to people for the first time, they're so focused on the idea that it's not actually possible to move forward, that it's not possible to get out of debt. That's a very real, normal feeling. So if you're feeling those things don't think that you're the only one, there are so many people out there feeling that and silently suffering. I want you to know that you're not alone and the best way to move forward out of that is to recognize, first of all that yes, I can do this and secondly there has to be a bigger reason why. Otherwise, we will stay in this cycle because it's comfortable. It may not be fun, but it's comfortable.
So that's the first thing, second thing is really gaining awareness about your situation. Are you making enough money to cover your bills? Are you making enough money to be profitable? And I think that's the single most important thing, besides the why, because you can have all these dreams, but if you don't have a business that's generating a profit, it will not get you there. The profit carries you forward to allow you to realize those things.
So we calculate a revenue goal, we get profit first percentages which are really simply just percentages of your money going to specific things. So its certain amount going directly to profit, so its like a savings account. A certain amount going to your personal pay so that you can pay the bills that you wanna pay for your lifestyle, your lifestyle's gonna be different from the next entrepreneur and the next coach, and that's fine. Some of us live in New York City, some of us live in Kansas City. The cost of living is gonna be different, therefore your personal needs are gonna be different. So having a generic revenue goal is a detriment to everyone because it doesn't make any sense. It used to drive me crazy when I would see those Facebook adds, “Make 5K as a health coach!” That may work for someone but I know for sure, for me, when I was starting out as a health coach, I needed to make 8K to meet my goals. So it just always frustrated me thinking, “Well, I would always be behind or be going into debt making 5K a month.” Whereas someone who needs 3K will be like, “Woo, 5K's amazing!”
Christine H.: That was brutal, like brutal, brutal, to actually look at how much we needed to make even as a family, right, at the time. Even with my husbands salary and mine, actually looking at our subscriptions, our insurances, our monthly bills, our yearly bills, which we tend to forget, and then I'm like oops, okay savings. That was brutal. That was super hard for me, because I was not making enough money at the time to pay fat taxes, plus living expenses and paying myself was just not in the cards, right [inaudible]. So, knowing that, I think a lot of people have no clue, like they literally don't know. I didn't know how much money I needed to set aside each month to actually just cover my basic expenses without any luxury items or anything on top of that, or any of my business expenses. I think that's the exercise I would ask that I would ask everyone to start doing. Look in that folder where you have your annual bills and when you do the calculation, its very enlightening in a positive way. I don't know if I found it enlightening, I found it [crosstalk]
Kendra Perry: Shocking.
Amber Dugger: That's probably the most emotional point and it also takes the most courage. I'm so inspired by everyone that sits in front of me ready to do that work, because it is a point in time where you've decided enough is enough, I'm ready to get clarity and I'm ready to have a tangible goal to hit. The reason I believe so many have not done this in the past is no one has ever really talked about how to do it before. Going through health coaching school, I was shocked. People were talking about how much percentage of your income you should put to investing and they aren't even talking about how much money you should be making as a health coach and suggesting that we start of at like 200$ a client per month. And I was doing the calculations, I was like, I'm gonna need like 55 clients.
So I encourage all of you to go to my website and download a free calculator. Its called the revenue profitability calculator. I offer that as gift to everyone, because it is the single most important thing and if you do that you now have a tangible goal. You don't need a lot of information, you just need to know roughly how much you want to pay yourself each month and how much your monthly expenses are. That's really it. You put those two things in and you get a number.
There's more to it after that, but getting that number is powerful, because now you can look at seeing, okay, "if I need to make 12000$ a month to live this ideal life that I've put together here, how many spaces do I have available for clients? How much am I currently charging?" If I have 10 spaces and I need 12000$, okay well that's 1200 a month on average I need to charge my clients. How can I create a package that would allow for that. Or what other revenue strings can go into that so then I need 6000$. There's so many different ways you can start playing. But it's a simple thing.
It's like taking a piece of paper and saying okay, 12000 at the top. Alright how are different ways that I can make this happen and it's a really exciting thing because now you have a real thing to go after and its not like shooting in the dark. Which is amazing that so many of us can continue to run a business without having that number, so just imagine once you do. Its like this, okay watch out world, I'm driven now, I'm getting this number now.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, that's awesome and where does all this fear around money stem from? Because I remember when I... I had a look at my finances, a few years ago and I read that book called, I think its called I Can Make You Rich, I can't remember the authors name, but it's a pretty popular book.
Amber Dugger: Ramit Sethi
Kendra Perry: Yeah Ramit Sethi. I looked in my finances and then I remember crying to my boyfriend in the [inaudible] meeting, like “I'm unsuccessful! I don't know what I'm doing! Oh my god! What happening.” We had just started dating so he was like oh god.
I had this fear of even looking at my bank account and where do you think that stems from?
Amber Dugger: Well that's a great question. I think it can really depend from person to person. Well first of all, I just want to share that money is 99% behavioral and emotional [crosstalk]. So there can be 1001 reasons why it might instill fear, but I would believe, one of the most common ones that I see, is that we simply fear what we don't understand.
We may not admit that out loud, but I know that for my own situation thinking about when I first started out as a health coach, I was scared of marketing. I just didn't understand it, I don't really know how to do it, I didn't really understand the ideal client. So I was always scared to market myself. With money a lot of are expected, somehow, out of thin air to understand money.
This is a generational problem I would say, because back in the 30's and 40's we had the Great Depression, [inaudible] so then the way to manage money was just don't spend it ever. So that generation had money because they simply lived a really simple life with really not enjoying very much. Even to the point, I remember my grand-mother telling me... she gave me a silver platter when I graduated college and she said, “this is the silver platter that we used and just a trick, when you are starting out and you don't have a lot of money, buy a really small roast but then fill it with potatoes and root vegetables to make it look like its bigger.” And this was a reality for that generation.
So we have that. Then we go into more of the baby boomer phase where this is so much opportunity and people are making a really great living with pension. So then they've learned from their parents to not spend a lot of money and to just work and be able to have that pension and that retirement.
Now were getting to a point where things are so different from what our parents, our grand-parents experiences and there's so many different types of loans I didn't even know existed until I started working with the clients that I work with now. There are loans on every possible way that you could bring in money. There's loans on your pay pass settlements, there's loans on your stripes settlements, there's loans on your house, your car. You can pretty much get a loan on anything. This is causing a problem where people tend to ... if they get into this cycle, more than half of their expenses are now being paid on interest. So you can get to a point where just almost all of your payments are going to debt repayments. This is a timing thing now, because if we can live below our needs and at the same time pay down our debt, then we're creating our own loans to ourselves. Because if we have our own savings than we can borrow from ourselves without paying any money. So these loans are just costing us so much money.
But, to get back to your question about where it stems from, I think it can be the fear of the unknown, it can also be experiences that we also had as children. So there are people who actually stress more about money and have a lot of savings because they saw their parents never have any money. And then you have some people that are scared that it will be taken away or be used as power against them. That has happened with different family structures and things like that. So its a really good thing and a really form of self-care to explore this with yourself and see where does this stem from. I know that Christine knows that I just love this book, I talk about it all the time, I always have it here.
Christine H.: I recommend it to everyone. It changed my life. I'm not kidding you. That's when I went from charging 800$ to 10000$. That book. That was it.
Kendra Perry: Who writes it? Tapping Into Wealth.
Christine H.: Tapping Into Wealth by Margaret M. Lynch. It uses EFT.-
Kendra Perry: I'm going on Amazon prime right now to buy it.
Amber Dugger: Don't wait, just kidding. But what's so amazing about this book is every time I read it I learn something new about my relationship with money. Because we never get over money blocks, we always will have different ... because we continue to have experiences. So those experiences will allow us to continue to add to our relationship but I find that as I continue to explore my own relationship with money, it becomes less and less part. It's not a good thing, it's not a bad thing. Money is simply a resource to allow me to do the things that I wanna do. Its meant to flow. it's not meant to just stay there and not doing anything right. I mean if all hung out in a room and never left and we had 3 million dollars sitting there, it would be a pretty boring life, if we couldn't do anything with it. We'd be like, okay maybe we need to burn this so we can have some meat. So it was really just a reflection or representation of the ability to then exchange that value for something else. So yeah
And, money, you want to have enough so that its aging to about maybe 100 days, but then after that you want it to move in and out so that it can flow. Water gets toxic and [murky] if it just stays in one place. But if water's moving, its so beautiful, and pristine and fresh. And it's the same thing with money. If that is something that resonates with you, I highly recommend, I'm a book nerd, its called The Soul of Money by Lynne Twist. She describes this beautifully. I've learned so much from her on really understanding what money really is.
Christine H.: I love that. I also have to say, the good thing is that your money blocks, once you know them, they're not gone as you said, but you can detect them, right. So, I think for me, the main money block was, like, I was always bad at math. So for me money equals math. [inaudible] it's the same thing, hence I'm bad at it. I never had to worry about money in my life, in a way. So I never really bothered to deal with it.
so the other thing is that, you know, once I worked with you Amber, I kind of understood that it's not the easiest thing for me. I think other people just get things much quicker and but its doable and it gives me a lot of power. The other thing is that I gave emotions to money. Even now, you know when I had savings that came from my family, it was bad money for me. I didn't want to use it because it wasn't the money that I actually made in my business. And I had to understand that actually no it's not good or it's bad, it's a resource that I have for a reason. I just went to do some major life changes and needed my savings to start fresh and I've had really bad in the beginning because it was from my business, but I had to use it from my savings. But in the end, who cares, you know. It is allowing me to start something new and since then, my business has taken off so much more than ever before.
So I think I still know when I sabotage myself and I actually reached out to Amber recently because I was like, "okay I'm starting to do it again." But at least I know. I know and I'm like, “okay, this weekend, its big girl panties on and let's sit down and do the money thing." Because once you set it up, its so easy. It's so so easy, you know. Its just taking that step and doing it, I think is the biggest one. Whether you think you're bad with money, like the cliché sentence, or whether you think its super scary to look at that bank account, I think its always worth it and I really really, especially in the health coach business, where people want to help other people, you cannot do that, if you cannot pay your bills. Its just not doable. You are also running a business. Money and business is just a thing that goes together.
Amber Dugger: As your speaking, its coming to mind for me, I'm just envisioning someone listening to this for the first time and I'm guessing that there might be a question of, "Yes, this all sound amazing, and yes I really wanna do this but how do I do this? What do I do first?" And so would you guys like me to just explain a little more about what I think would be the three most important things to do.
Christine H.: Yes, please do.
Amber Dugger: So if you're listening to this and you're feeling a little overwhelmed or maybe you're feeling inspired or maybe a little bit of both, the first thing that I would suggest that you do is just take a moment and close your eyes and just take a deep breathe. And thank yourself for having these feelings and for listening to this and wanting to take action. This is a beautiful form of self-care and as you promote that to your clients as health coaches it's also important, as you know, to do this for yourself.
And the next thing I want you to just think about is what does your ideal life look like? What are the feelings that you want to feel in this ideal life? And just sit with that for a couple of minutes and really feel the things around you in that ideal life and the people and the images and the smells. This is something that you can do every morning and visualizing what it is that you are wanting to achieve. And it will also help you gain clarity over what it is that you truly want to do with the resources that come into your business.
so there are two things that I see most people, especially when their starting out as a health coach, that's blocking themselves from money. If you do not have a very easy way for people to pay you, I want you to do that first, and that can be as easy as getting a stripe account and using Acuity Scheduling. That's my favorite one, but I'm sure you guys have your own favorite ones. The second thing that I would suggest is that you get a way for to book in. If there's not a place or space for people to book in, then you won't be able to have the calls, and you won't be able to ask for the money. So those are the two most common things I see block, and don't make it really complicated, make it an easy way for them to pay.
The second thing is if you've done that or you've got, "yep, check, check". The second thing is, sit down and do one of two things. If you wanna do it very simply, just write down a number that you wanna pay yourself every month. Very simple. Second thing, just quickly tally up your business expenses that you currently have and write that number down. Then go and get that revenue calculator and put those two things in, and once you get your number put it on a post-it note and stick it up next to your desk and then maybe put one in your wallet, put one on your bathroom mirror, put one, if you can, put it all around your house. This is definitely something that the Tapping Into Wealth girl talked about and I did it. Every time I change this number, I hit that number. So its a very powerful thing. Just putting it out into the universe.
If you decide that you wanna go a little bit deeper than just writing down the numbers, which is totally fine if that's what you do. If you wanna have another step, than go to your bank account and print off your last statement, and just take a highlighter and mark anything that you feel like you weren't using. Because there's a difference between spending on luxury and over consumption. Over consumption could be-
Christine H.: Kendra!
Kendra Perry: I think I over consume! Oh my god! I think I spend too much money on random shit! Oh my gosh
Christine H.: [crosstalk]
Kendra Perry: This is hitting my soul right now.
Amber Dugger: Heres where you can determine if it is or not.
Kendra Perry: Okay.
Amber Dugger: This hand cream that I don't really use, it was a gift actually, but if I had purchased this and it sat here never used. I never used it because I didn't like the ingredients in it, this would be over consumption. Because I bought it but don't use it, don't care about it, don't prioritize it. Now if I have a 30$ german notebook that has fancy paper in it, and it feels amazing and it works really well with my 100$ fountain pen. But if I use it and it brings me joy and I hear the scratch of the golden nib onto this beautiful linen paper, and it gives me that spark, that gratitude, that feeling of heart coherence, then it's absolutely not over consumption, it's luxury. Over consumption can be a three dollar tube of cream and 130$ worth of stationary can be luxury.
So just ask yourself before you purchase your next item, will I prioritize the use of this item, will I enjoy this item, is this something that I will want to have in my life, do I have the space for it? If any of those are no, ask yourself if you really need it. Because there's no reason spending money on something you don't care about, but it is important to spend on the things that you do.
Kendra Perry: You just made me feel really good for buying a 6000$ infrared sauna.
Amber Dugger: Good.
Kendra Perry: That's not over consumption that is luxury [crosstalk]
Christine H.: I have so much space in my bedroom, I'm like it would be super nice to have that sauna in there.
Kendra Perry: It's the best thing ever.
Christine H.: But for example, like just a silly example, and people probably aren't gonna understand, but I got a pair of underwear. It just had the top was available here in Luxembourg, but the bottom was nowhere to be found in my size, so I had to order it from [inaudible]. So the bottom alone is 56 pounds and then the shipping was 27. So in the end I spent 80 pounds, I don't even wanna know what that is in dollars on a thong. And I'm like, "should I do this?" In the end it looks gorgeous and when I wear it [inaudible] its amazing. Its super amazing and when I wear it, obviously I'm not only wearing that, like I wear clothes. But I wear it when-
Amber Dugger: But do you see this glowing emitting from you, and this energy and just this like lightness and like it just brings you up. And that's so important for us to give ourselves these things.
Christine H.: And when I do a deal, when I know that I go to a meeting that I have to close a deal, you can bet that's what I wear. Because it just uplifts everything for me. Everyone has their thing whether it's a family pen, whether it is a infrared sauna, whether it is, well anyway it doesn't matter. You're completely right that, you know, spend your money there instead of cheaper stuff that doesn't make you happy actually.
Amber Dugger: Yeah or expensive stuff that doesn't make you happy-
Christine H.: Yeah
Amber Dugger: And cheap old stuff can make you very happy.
Christine H.: True true.
Amber Dugger: Like this ruler, I love this ruler. [inaudible] but I have it on my desk [crosstalk].
Kendra Perry: I love that you made that distinction because I was actually thinking the other day, I'm like, "man, I spend a lot of money". But I spend a lot of money on my health, you know, my health is really important to me. I buy high quality supplements, I buy crazy light machines, I buy all kinds of stuff, but I use it all and in the end it helps me feel good energy wise and so now I feel a little bit better about spending money on that stuff.
Christine H.: But you also have a budget on your supplements, I don't know, right.
Amber Dugger: Sure, so the other component of this is also recognizing that these things require resources. So this is where it goes back to looking and assessing what is it that I really need to be my best self, to be energized, to have that ability to wake up in the morning and feel ready to tackle the day ahead of me. As you get more clear on that, then writing it down, assessing how much it will cost, is important because then you can put it into the revenue calculator, you can see how much you wanna make and then you can start making plans to hit and exceed that number. We all have the ability to do this and every single person can do this. Its just a matter of us taking this into our own hands and stop being bullied by an industry and also by this perception that we're not good with money.
I just have to touch on this because this always bothered me when I was in college. I was one of the only girls in my finance major, and I was surrounded by a lot of really big egos. They all wanted wall street investors. I had no desire to be a wall street investor. I saw it as a big hoax and really you can put your money in index funds and beat most of the investors 99% of the time. So the professor walked in one day and said, "Alright this is the advanced level investing course", there's all these guys that are getting ready to take there series 7. And he said, "okay, half of you in this room is gonna fail before mid-term, so I'm gonna share the most important thing you need to know to accumulate wealth in about five minutes before we move on to the other areas that will not help you nearly as much as this one tip." And I'm looking around and guys are just like whatever. I'm thinking, "did I hear this right? Why is not everyone taking out their pen and paper and writing this down?"
It was that, it was to put your money in index funds, because as history states, the market continues to grow and unless we have a huge crash, which if we have a huge crash everything will crash not just certain things, everything is gonna crash.so by putting it into something that you know is increasing in value steadily over time, why wouldn't you do that, right? And you don't have to do anything. Its super cheap, you don't have to pay for someone to do that. So I knew that there was something bigger that I wanted to do with my education. But I saw these, mostly guys, want to show how smart they were.
Now this is just my perception, but from my experience this is what was happening. And so they would go around and even in corporate, when I was in corporate, I would see the whole picture, I'd be like okay "we just need to spend less money or we need to make more money". That's really as simple as it gets here, right? Instead, they would be like, "oh well we have to look at this ratio, we have to look at this and we have to look at this performance index and all this stuff." And its like okay, but you're not actually doing anything to fix the big problem which is we have no cash.
So I say all this because if you feel confused about money, or you feel like when someone talks about money that their talking about all these really big things and confusing what's shorts and stocks and puts and all this stuff. I'm not speaking for the person talking about this, however, in general, my experience has been that this is to show how smart they are about it and how dumb you are. You're not. Money is very simple. If you have money, and you want to spend less than you have, and if you something cost more than you have, don't spend it. That's as simple as it gets. I say this because its become more and more evident to me that the deepest reason people don't look at it is they don't wanna appear stupid, they don't wanna appear like they don't know what they're talking about.
I encourage you to start educating yourself and just looking and reading blog articles and possibly picking up this book and Ramit Sethi's book is hands down one of my favorite personal finance books, I'll Teach You To Be Rich. That's why I have not written a book, because he wrote it. Everything he wrote I'm like, "Yes! Yes!" I had a chance to meet him last year and I told him, I was like, "I love what you wrote. If everyone would read that book they would be in such a better state of mind about money, because you make it so approachable."
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and one of the first things I did after reading this book was set up index funds. My boyfriend loved that you said that because I think people think investing is really complicated. And I know people are paying really high management fees to get a person to manage their investments when really that person is gonna lose against the computer algorithm every time. So, I think [inaudible] is really important, its really affordable and over the long term it makes you significantly more money.
Amber Dugger: Heck yes sister!
Kendra Perry: Yeah![crosstalk]
Christine H.: Amazing! So I can, just personally again, we emphasize and totally vouch for Amber and her service. Its been a game changer for me, I think it was literally the first step that changed everything, myself included because then I read the Margaret Lynch book and then I read Joe Dispenza's Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself. When channel all of these together it changes you as a person and you know what to do, you're not afraid of money which is helpful if you want to make money. Its life changing. So I highly, highly suggest having just a chat with Amber if you are feeling like I did in the beginning or like any of the scenarios that we discussed today. So Amber just quickly let us know if we have people who are like "okay, I am ready, I want to face this, I want to be happy, I really want to know what to do." How can they get in touch with you?
Amber Dugger: Oh well first of all thank you for saying that, I really do appreciate it. My mission is really to make my business [inaudible]. I want this to not be an issue. The best way to get a hold of me is first to download the calculator, you'll get lots of information on how to take that further.
Christine H.: [crosstalk]Where can people find it?
Amber Dugger: Yes, it's just my website amberdugger.com. The other place to go would be my free community in Facebook, its called Sweet Life Purpose for Money. In there, there's all sort of resources and you can ask questions there and then there's a way to book a call on my website as well and its just amberdugger.com/workwithme.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. That's the first thing I'm gonna do after this call is I'm gonna go download your probability calculator and I'm like, "okay I gotta get more organized, I need to know my numbers, I love this." I actually love numbers. I never thought I did, but they kind of tingle me a little bit.
Christine H.: They turn me on when I get them in my bank account.
Kendra Perry: Oh yeah!
Amber Dugger: Well ladies, thank you so much for having me. Its been such a pleasure.
Christine H.: Absolutely
Kendra Perry: Thank you so much
Christine H.: Thank you so much. And you guys don't forget to leave us a five star review on Itunes. And-
Kendra Perry: Five star!
Christine H.: We will talk to you in two weeks. So thanks for coming and listening and watching and keep doing this.
Kendra Perry: Good words of advice.
Christine H.: Alright. [crosstalk] alright you guys thanks for listening and talk to you soon! Bye!