Personal branding is THE most important thing in 2019 when it comes to marketing yourself and your business. While brand colours and fonts are important, no one connects with a logo, they want to connect with YOU as a human being and as a practitioner or health coach.
If you are worried that people won’t like you…won’t like that post you put up, then you need to work on yourself before you work on your business. Here’s why. We ALL have triggers in our businesses. Our last episode with Lori Kennedy talked all about this and we talk about it again today…your business WILL bring out insecurities that you may or may not realize you have. As Kendra puts it, she sometimes feels like she’s “still that girl in high school who's wondering if anyone's going to show up to my party”. So you need to make sure you have your support team to support you, so you can support others.
But let’s get back to personal brand. When you show up authentically, fearlessly, genuinely, and honestly….ladies and gentlemen, you have your brand. But don’t expect it to happen overnight. And if you’re just starting out, don’t expect it to stay the same. Often time our clients can actually shift our brand and our niche! It's not like you're just going to listen to this episode and know exactly what to do. It's going to be a work in process. You're going to make some mistakes. You're going to have to switch things and change things and revamp things. It's always a work in progress, but in the end just don't try to be who you think you should be, just be you. Just be who you are, exactly how you would in everyday life.
So how can you make your brand you? Kendra and Christine offer some great tips in today’s episode including how to make your Instagram more searchable, which platforms you should be on, ways to discover what your brand is (hint JOURNALLING!) and if you decide you can’t do it yourself and need a brand coach – what to look for in a brand coach.
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Kendra Perry: Yo yo. What's up? 360 Health Biz [inaudible 00:00:04]. I'm trying to channel Brandon [Boomer 00:00:07], because he's always like "What's up holistic [inaudible 00:00:09] [savage tribe 00:00:09]?" What's up every one! Welcome to another episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I am your first host, Kendra Perry, and I am joined by Christine Hansen who, we actually haven't hung out in a while, Christine.
Christine: I know its been like, I texted you, so it's like, "I miss you. It's been too long."
Kendra Perry: Yeah, we haven't recorded an episode in a while so we're super excited to hang out with you guys today. And we're talking about a topic that is so important. It's so, so important. And a lot of health coaches don't get it, right?
Christine: To be blunt, it's like duh, but no ... it's very true. And I think that Kendra and I both didn't get it for a long time.
Kendra Perry: Oh yeah. I only really got it like a year ago, I swear.
Christine: I agree.
Kendra Perry: It's something that's kind of like ... it's not super tangible, you have to kind of really think about it and kind of know what you're doing. But we're going to be talking about branding and personal branding. And the reason why we want to talk about this is because maybe in 2017 this was less important. Maybe in 2018 it was important but not the primary thing, but in 2019, it is like the [inaudible 00:01:16], you have to be successful. You need to have a personal brand. And in order to do that you actually have to know what that is.
Christine: Totally. So we're going to talk about that. We're going to give examples about how you get there, what to watch out for. Also maybe if you hire someone, you know what you should look out for. But first, we want to shout out a very special thank you to [Kimmy Classon 00:01:38], because she wrote us a five star review on iTunes. We love you.
Kendra Perry: We love you.
Christine: So here's what she's saying. "I'm not even a health coach and I love this podcast." Like this seriously, just the [inaudible 00:01:51] is just like makes my heart sick. "I use all the actionable steps in my business and they worked magic and momentum in my mission. I feel empowered that I too can build my biz of my dreams when I listen to these ladies and their amazing guests. So helpful. Thank you."
Kendra Perry: Thank you Kimmy. And I actually know Kimmy, and she's a sustainability coach. So she's done some really cool work with sustainability and climate change so follow her on Instagram.
Christine: I tip my invisible hat to you Kimmy. Like seriously. Amazing business. We're super happy that we can help. And actually, I'm going to drop a little teaser here because Kendra and I, we're working on something where we might be able to help you even a lot more in the future. So stay tuned. Just throwing that out there.
Kendra Perry: Just dropping the seeds, dropping the seed, shameless plug, shameless plug.
Christine: Totally. There you go, that's psychology, baby. Listen to that.
Kendra Perry: Totally.
Christine: Yes, branding. So I think we have to talk a little bit about what branding used to be. So we are the same age pretty much. And I think branding for a long time used to be the logo of MTV or Nike or McDonald's.
Kendra Perry: Like the colors, the font, you know. Visual, the visual.
Christine: Exactly. And the same colors or the same font all the time. And it was pretty much the graphic, I would say.
Kendra Perry: The graphic was really, really important. The logo was really important. And I mean I stressed so much about my logo when I first [inaudible 00:03:32], and now I actually haven't updated my logo like the whole time I've had my business. I need to update it but it doesn't really matter that much, so I just don't care.
Christine: Exactly. Exactly. So we will focus, obviously if you have a product it's still a little bit different. But we will talk about us as people, as service providers, where your brand is something completely different. And please keep all of this in mind when you're also looking to hire something with your branding, because there are people who are trained in this, but there's also people who are used to work with companies, or are just a little bit outdated frankly, who will get it wrong.
Christine: Yes. Just a couple pointers on what to look out for. So as Kendra said, we were at this social media marketing conference, and even before we noticed how branding is completely different. It doesn't have to do with your font, in a way. It does, but the most important piece of the puzzle is actually yourself. And that makes a lot of people squeal inside. It's like, "Oh no I don't want to. But I'm not special. I'm not cool. I'm not busy." Or whatever bullshit is in your head. And I think we're going to give you tangible action steps this episode. But I think the word that needs to go with branding, if you have your business and are selling yourself, and I want you to say that out loud actually, "I am selling myself." Without having the image of Pretty Woman and being a prostitute in your head.
Christine: Because a lot of time when we say this, "I'm selling myself." It's a connotation we just have, and it's bullshit. So I think the word that goes hand in hand with branding is personal development in a way, because you need to be you and you need to be authentic you. So I think the easiest is if Kendra and I are talking a little bit about our steps, so Kendra why don't you start a little bit with you're really, really happy with your brand right now, and it's totally is, so how did you get there?
Kendra Perry: Yeah, well I think ... well first of all was realizing that what people want these days, and we talked about this a little bit over the past few episodes that we recorded, people, they want to connect with you. We're in an era where social media is like a main way that we connect with people and it can feel really impersonal. So I think what people really are looking for is real human connection. They want to feel like they know you and that maybe they can be friends with you. And they want to feel like I could hang out with this chick. Like I really like her. She could be in my friend group and that would be awesome. And we would just hang and it would be cool.
Kendra Perry: And so I think for me the first thing was realizing that it's less about a brand so much as it is about a personal brand. You mentioned that with personal development, if you were a coach, and if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably a coach of some kind, whether it's a health coach or a fitness pro, whatever is is you're doing. You are your brand. So for me it was realizing that my brand is me, and I needed to stop faking what I thought people wanted to see me as, and be quote, unquote, "professional", and just be myself. And so that meant sharing more about me. So if you guys follow me you probably know that I'm really into the mountains and the outdoors, and I love adrenaline sports, right? So-
Christine: And crashing your bike, it's like [crosstalk 00:06:56]
Kendra Perry: Totally. Crashing my bike and wrecking my body. That's my thing, right? And so it was about figuring out how to infuse the things that are really important to me, my core values, which is being in nature, being in the mountains and pushing myself with sports, into my brand message and into what I'm actually doing with people. So it was taking a step back from just recording videos, with make up on, and looking all professional, and recording videos in my bike jersey. Or as I'm going for a walk or on the mountain bike trail, or whatever it is, and actually bringing that into what I do. So I think for me, it was just realizing that your brand is who you are.
Christine: I agree.
Kendra Perry: As a core human being. And what you stand for and your values. And it's not easy. It's not like you're just like, "This is me. This is what I stand for and I'm going to start combining my brand and who I am." It's a process, it takes time, and it takes a lot of deep personal work. Which I think comes back around to the personal development thing you were talking about Christine, right?
Christine: Yeah, and I think if both of us look at our history. I'm on website number four most likely. I love my website now but it's because I've changed it because I've grown. And it's fine. It took me three years to figure out who I am and what I want to do. I can confidently now say that I'm totally me and I love it, but it's not always been that great. So if you are a newbie coach, here's a little advice with love. Don't spend all your budget on a branding person yet. I would actually advertise you to keep it a little bit more generic in terms of clean and simple, rather than going all in, thinking you know who you are and thinking you know what your clients want and what resonates with them. Because I guarantee you, you will change again. And I'd rather use that budget on a coach or an energy worker, or whatever you are into, to help you figure out what makes you comfortable saying that sentence, "I am selling myself." Because if that doesn't feel comfortable to you, you have work to do. Until you get there, I'd budget more into that journey than necessarily the branding.
Kendra Perry: Yeah I completely agree, because the thing is you probably are going to change your niche. The niche that you start with, I would say more than likely you're going to change it at some point, right?
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra Perry: You've changed your niche once or twice. I've changed it like four times. And I think it's just because you're going to think, "Oh I really want to talk about this topic." You're going to get out there, and maybe you're going to get sick of talking about it, or maybe your interests are going to take you elsewhere. Or maybe the people who are following you are going to take you elsewhere, and that's okay. So I do think go light, pick a few colors and fonts, that's cool, whatever. And then just actually sit down and journal. Actually sit down and think about who you really are.
Kendra Perry: When you sit down ... and I'd like to give the person who I heard this from credit, but I can't remember where I heard this, but it's really good. It's like your brand is what people say about you when you're not around.
Christine: Oh yeah.
Kendra Perry: Isn't that good?
Christine: That's good. It's very good.
Kendra Perry: Because how would you describe me? Oh she's like crazy and off the cuff, and outgoing, and outdoorsy. It's my personality, right? It's how people would describe me. So think about what people would say. And if you don't know maybe you should ask your friends and family.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I would also be ... whatever triggers you, whatever makes you feel uncomfortable, that's the point you need to investigate. You need to figure out why. Is it actually you or is it someone else's voice in your head. Until you understand who you are and what is actually your authentic issue, you will not be confident enough, and authentic enough. Because authenticity cannot be faked. Having said that, I have kind of a double split persona in a way. So I like different things. I like to be completely glam. I am now, also really like to be sexy, but I also really like to hang out with sneakers and a et-shirt. And I sometimes make it a point to go to these networking points where you have suit guys and ladies in their pant suits and stuff, and I just show up in trousers and sneakers because I'm like screw all of you, I can do whatever I want.
Christine: So I have this double persona, but the way that I did it was, okay, this type of persona is great for my website in terms of the first impression, also because I charge a certain price point. But when I'm on video or when I do my Instagram stories, I'm very, very basic and down to Earth. And if you go to my Instagram you'll also see that my photo shoots are like that. Some are a little bit more posh and some are just with sneakers and a et-shirt and jeans. So they're all part of me, but I'm having to say it's always polished most of the time, but if you do charge a certain price point, you also, you don't have to, but it can help to appear in a certain way. Again, it's authentic to you though. I love my Louboutins. I Have to say I never wear them if I have to wear them for more than 10 minutes walking, but I look pretty damn hot when I do wear them. So it's like this double thing. But you need to own every piece of you. And I think, depending on what your business is, you push some of it forward for your website, but you need to be comfortable with it.
Christine: If you never wear shoes like that because you're uncomfortable or because you don't like the people who wear those shoes or whatever is coming with it, don't do it. Really, really don't do it. People smell it out. And I think in the end you need to remember that people will get to know you. They will buy your service and they will get to know you. And if it doesn't coincide, they will be disappointed. And damn, that's also how we have our dream clients because they connect with the authentic us. It's a take it or leave it thing. If you don't like the way we are, you know what you get, basically. We don't sell anything that's not authentic. And I think that's how you get the raving testimonials afterwards because people actually know you. And you didn't promise anything that didn't happen. And you didn't sell yourself as someone who you're not. So I think that's super, super important to understand.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I think it's a really good point. I was speaking with a coach the other day and she was getting frustrated with social media, and trying to show up as who she thought she should be, right? Which was what we were talking about in the beginning. And she's someone who has a big ranch, and she has horses. And I mean all her days are spent outside with the horses. And I was like, you need to do your videos in the field with your horses. And she's like, actually I did a video in her horse stall where she was picking up horse poop and talking about how the poop ... it's annoying to pick up, but it means her horses are healthy and stuff like that. And kind of weaving it into health and whatever. And she was like, "I felt really fired up in that video." I'm like, "Yeah. Because you're in your element." Right?
Kendra Perry: Just like Christine said, if you're not a fancy person, then don't do a photo shoot wearing all this makeup and a fancy dress.
Christine: No. Oh it looks horrible.
Kendra Perry: My photo shoots are action sports stuff. Me in casual wear. Sometimes I just have selfies with no make up on because half the time I'm in the forest biking and my make up is off my face. It's streaming down the side of my face because I just did a podcast and now I'm going biking and I'm sweating like a pig, right?
Kendra Perry: So I think it's about figuring out who you are, but showing that on your social media and on your website. People should really feel like, like Christine says, that it lines up. When they meet you in person you should be the same person. And people are going to feel like they know you and when they actually meet you they want to be like, "Oh wow. She's just like she is online."
Christine: Exactly. And it's so funny because I see people on Zoom, when I have my first sessions with them. And they're like, "Oh you actually look like you do in your photos. You look the same way." And I'm like, yes. Because they like, "Well, I've people when I saw them on their website and then I saw them on video and it's completely crazy."
Kendra Perry: Yeah, totally.
Christine: Hang on, just one second. It's raining and one of my windows closed automatically and the other one hasn't. So now I'm wondering if they all close automatically. Okay, it's fine, sorry.
Kendra Perry: Random, side note there.
Christine: Sorry, sorry. I just wouldn't want it to [inaudible 00:15:34] anything, but fine. Yes. So, no, I think that's really important. And that's also why I really want to say, if you want to work with a branding coach, which I think, at some point, you should do. Someone who writes the copy and someone who understands fonts, who just knows all of them, and who can tell you immediately this corresponds your persona. Here's a really important thing to keep in mind. First of all they need to understand what you do. Because yesterday I talked to someone, and she's doing, she's a licensed psychiatrist, but she's also working with meditation and energy work. When she was working with a branding coach, they had no idea what she was actually doing. And she was like, "Okay how is she supposed to ..." Sorry cat ...
Kendra Perry: Aww cute.
Christine: "How is she supposed to write or to represent me if she doesn't even know what I do?" So I think that's a big, red flag right there.
Christine: The other thing is that if, as soon as the coach or consultant, tries to fit you into a box, run for the hills. It's just not what they should do. They should listen and then they should work and design something upon it. They should not say, okay, I think you should be this and this and this, because this and this and this sells. Bullshit. I call bullshit.
Kendra Perry: I worked with a coach who kind of did something like that. And really pushed me into talking about weight loss. And I'm sorry but I hate weight loss. It's not ... I mean I don't feel like I'm someone who's like ... I'm fit but I don't have this ripped body, and I just hate the before and after photos of [crosstalk 00:17:17]
Kendra Perry: I feel like you attract, not always, but depending on how you position yourself, but you often attract people who want to just lose weight, and they don't care about their health. And that's something I'm interested in. But she really kind of pushed me into that space, and then when I launched what I had to launch, it totally flopped. And I think it was because I was super out of alignment with what I actually was doing. And I was like, I don't even want to do this. What am I doing? So you do have to be wary of that. And I think when you think about ... you obviously need to know ... we talk so much about knowing who your ideal client is and figuring out who you're talking to. That's a big part of brand building. You need to be specific, you need to know who you're trying to attract.
Kendra Perry: But you also want to know how do you want people to feel when they come into contact with your business. Like with Christine, if I'm an entrepreneur, a CEO, I might get that luxury, high end feel, and maybe that's what you want people to feel. And when people come to my business, they might feel inspired to go climb a mountain or they feel like, get this nature-y feel. You want them to have a feeling about your business, and that's ...
Kendra Perry: That's great.
Christine: No, I totally agree. I agree. And it's also, yes, for me I think if you're authentic, you will automatically attract the right clients. Like some will just Google, they find your website, and they schedule a call with you and they have no clue what you actually do. But I find the hardcore fans, usually they take some time, they stalk you for a while, and then they get in touch. And you have this perfect client-coach, expert, whatever dynamic. And they are ready then to spend money with you because they trust you, because you never lie, and because you're just authentic. And if you screw up, you screw up, and it's fine. And they know that it's human and that's it.
Christine: And I personally, I also, it's really funny because I worked with someone, and I admire her still, she's amazing. But in the beginning, three years ago, her branding was very subtle, and she was no make up or just tiny bits, and it was just, I loved it. Because at the time, I don't know if you remember, everyone had this gold written font and it was just about boss babe and personal glam, six figure, seven figures. There was gold everywhere and everyone was wearing these business dresses and big hair on the beach, that kind of thing. And she was just ... she had a black dress, she was very sober, and it was all about what she was saying. Super intelligent thing. I loved it because she was different because that's the way she was.
Christine: Now she has one of these photographers that I know shooting a lot of people who are pretty in in the industry right now, and they all look the same. And it's all over the top glitz and glam. And it's like everyone is one a unicorn boat, float thing. And I'm just like, I cannot have it with the graffiti in the background. Everyone looks the same now and it's not high end. It's just like an overblown ego. It's not the same. Development, becoming more confident, does not mean that your ego is taking over. I think that's also important to keep in mind.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really important to keep in mind. You really want to be true to yourself. It's not the easiest thing to do but it's easier in the long run because in the long run you're just yourself. You're not trying to develop this persona of someone who you aren't. I'm sure we've all met people in our life who we felt were fake. And we felt like they were hiding something or they weren't being their true selves, and something was off. And we didn't want to hang out with those people. So you don't want to be that person to your audience, right?
Kendra Perry: And I have a little list here because I think journaling can be really helpful. I think you can sit down and really consider this, but I have some questions you can ask yourself when you're journaling. And the first one is what are you unique qualities and strengths? We all have them, we all have unique parts about our personalities. We all have unique strengths. And if that's a hard question for you to answer, like I said, talk to your friends and family. Sit down with your bestie. They might help you see a side of you that maybe is less obvious to yourself.
Kendra Perry: What are five words that your friends would use to describe you? Again, you can talk to your friends, right? What are your core values? What do you stand for in your business? How do people benefit from working with you? And how do you want people to feel after they come into contact with your business?
Kendra Perry: Really, really think about this. Do some journaling. And you might have some big aha moments. Because the truth is we all are unique, individual people. And these days people don't want the cookie cutter approach. They don't want some monotone practitioner in front of a camera being super professional, with no emotion and no personality. People are not going to watch that video.
Kendra Perry: If you're someone who likes to crack inappropriate jokes, crack inappropriate jokes. If you like to say fuck, say fuck. I say it all the time and it's honestly, it can be very polarizing. I mean people hate me for it. I get people ... it's the most common thing that people write to me and tell me to watch my mouth and I have a dirty mouth. But I don't care. If they hung out with me in person they would probably be like, "This girl swears to much and I don't want to hang out with her." Whatever, right? It's okay. There's someone else out there for them. It's not me and it doesn't need to be.
Christine: Perfect. I totally agree.
Kendra Perry: We like to say fuck.
Christine: A lot. And it's a great thing. I don't know why people are so offended. It's super great. Awesome.
Christine: But there was something else I wanted to say and it slipped my mind so let's continue because I-
Kendra Perry: Okay. Well I wanted to talk a little bit about Instagram because we really love Instagram right now. And honestly, in terms of a social media platform I do think it's probably one of the best ones to build a personal brand. It's very visual. There's a lot of ways you can share content. You can post in your feed, you can do Instagram stories, you can do IGTV, you can do Instagram live. Literally, there's four different ways to interact on Instagram, and they're all different ways to show your personalities. But I have some crazy pet peeves when it comes to Instagram. And I wanted to just talk about this quickly.
Kendra Perry: So you can do an experiment. Click on the people who you're following or people who are following you. And scroll down and look at the accounts that you're most likely to want to click into and learn more about. I almost guarantee it's not someone who's using a logo as their image, their profile picture. When I see a logo, I don't want to click into that at all. There's nothing. There's no human connection. I have no connection to a graphic or a logo. But when I see a cool picture of someone, I'm like, "Ooo, what does that chick do? Oh what does that dude do?" So I think-
Christine: Exactly. I mean the exception to the rule is obviously if you have a product or if you are like Mont Blanc of something like that, sure, use your logo. But let's talk about us people. Don't use your logo. Who cares?
Kendra Perry: Nobody cares about your logo and there's no connection there. Even if our Instagram handle or your business name is not your name, you are still your brand. So you have to have a photo there.
Kendra Perry: And then next of all your name, if your handle is like "climbtothetopwellness", I don't know, that's a weird business.
Christine: Or "sleeplikeabus".
Kendra Perry: Yeah, or "sleeplikeabus". You are still your brand so your name has to be somewhere in your bio. Because just think of it this way, imagine you have a logo and your names not in your bio. And then you DM somebody, like an ideal client to try to connect. They're going to be like ...
Christine: Who's that?
Kendra Perry: They're not going to follow you. You're not even a human.
Kendra Perry: And then the other thing is maybe I scroll down your feed and you don't even show up anywhere on your feed. There's no photos of you.
Christine: I hate that. I cannot stand it. These meme things, where people only put their memes of things. No. I would never hire you. I don't know who you are. I don't see you. I only see memes. I only see quotes, but who are you? It just tells me that your self-confidence is down the toilet, why would I want to learn from you? Sorry.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Like you, honestly, I think like every second photo ...
Christine: It is. It's my strategy.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:25:42] I see you. And I mean it actually makes your Instagram look really visual, when you just do like photo of you, and then maybe you can do your quote or your meme, something with like white space.
Christine: Exactly. Or whatever.
Kendra Perry: You could literally show up everyday on your feed. And I know it feels very narcissistic, but it's actually what people want from you. Those photos are going to do better, so from an Instagram perspective, you need to make it clear who you are. People need to go to your thing and see your photo and see your name. And then obviously see what they do, but I feel like I'm like a broken record. I've talked about this so much and I just see it so much. Like people who [crosstalk 00:26:18] health coaching, advice and marketing. And I'm just like, oh my god, I go on your profile [crosstalk 00:26:26] there, your photo's not there. You just have a list of all the schools you went to and your certifications.
Christine: Nobody cares.
Kendra Perry: Nobody cares.
Christine: Agreed. And you're much more searchable. So when people ask me how do I find you on Instagram, I tell them you can either look for "Christine Hansen" because my name is "Christine Hansen Sleep Expert", or you can look for "sleeplikeabus" because that's my handle. So you will find me whatever you type, which is amazing. So people do it. Use your name. I would suggest use your name and your business title. And just decide is your name going to be your business name or is your handle going to be whatever. But that way you're searchable twice, which is super cool.
Christine: The other thing is if you do want your credentials, just line a couple and then say dot, dot, dot. Like for example in my bio, I say that I've been featured in National Geographic books, et cetera. So even I have this little space available, I just do dot, dot, dot, but it's really, really helpful. Then a greet, use your personal picture and a quote or a blog or something like that.
Christine: And here's another tip, what I do ... because I use a personal picture every second day during the week. And Kendra and I did this for our pictures, whenever we go traveling, we go to Airbnb Experiences and book a photo shoot. And they're usually around 80 bucks, and you get 20 to 25 pictures is the norm, I think. And you get great pictures, like really great photographers out there. And they're perfect for Instagram and drop posts and so forth. So it's not expensive. It doesn't break the bank. And you can constantly feed fresh photos into your feed. It's Instagram, people are there because it's a visual platform, get over yourself.
Kendra Perry: Take good photos, right? Yeah, we started doing that ... I don't know, not that long ago. But our branch shoot that we did for the podcast, we just did it in San Diego on the beach with this photographer who seemed really introverted and not confident. And I was like, "Oh I don't know how this is going to go." But they were great photos. Really, really. And tons of them, right?
Kendra Perry: And it cost us like a hundred bucks or something.
Christine: Not even. Not even. And it doesn't even need to be ... like I like to have a photographer do photos because I don't know who else I would ask all the time, but if you go to see celebrities, like Reese Witherspoon, she does have some of her old photos, that were new ones, but she had a lot of photos that friends took with their iPhones, of her. Obviously she knows how to pose but it just goes to show you don't always need the professional angle. If you have someone, I don't know, a boyfriend or just a friend you hang out with, or a partner or whatever, or just a good friend, and where ever you are, you ask them can you take a picture of me, don't feel uncomfortable about it. Just say it's for my job. You can even do it with your iPhone or whatever smart phone you have. The camera's are so good nowadays.
Kendra Perry: They're so good.
Christine: The portrait mode, hello.
Kendra Perry: Hello portrait mode.
Christine: How much you can do, it's crazy.
Kendra Perry: It's such a good point because if you go on my feed, there's some photos on there that are processional, but there's a lot of photos that are literally just taken with my Google phone or my boyfriend's Google phone, and it's a really good, high quality camera. Now I also have a little tripod for my phone, so when I go places, I might just put on the timer and get a quick photo of me doing something. Actually, I posted an Instagram post on the editing eps that I use, but maybe that would be a good episode for an upcoming Biz Bomb episode, because I have like two apps that I pull things into that will take a photo that's pretty average, and I have my pre-set, and then I clean up my complexion and I clean up the colors, and suddenly it's a professional photo. It doesn't need to be a big deal. And in the end even selfies are better than not being on your feed.
Christine: Absolutely. And I would advocate that you have some kind of structure on your feed, and anything that you want to throw out there is your stories. That's how I handle it. So if I take a crazy selfie or just some snap shots from when I'm out and about, I still evaluate what I put into my stories, it's always personal. Usually it's my personal life and just showing ... because again it's part of my brand. When I travel first class it's part of my brand. It's who I am, it's what I sell. But also when I'm in the bathtub with my new kittens, that's also kind of who I am.
Christine: And you use it even more for marketing. I haven't done it quite as much yet. So there's so much wiggle room, as long as you stay true to yourself. So use gifs that you would usually use, use emojis that you would usually use. The fonts, there are so many different ones that you can use. They all have pros and cons I find, but use colors that you would use, that you find pretty. Just use things that you find attractive and I find that you are already on brand.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and it's a good point with Instagram Stories because when it comes to personal branding, and I think we're both on board with this Christine, is that we really think you need to use video to build a brand, right?
Christine: My god yes.
Kendra Perry: It's really hard to push out your personality on a blog post, on social media posts.
Christine: Unless you're a super good writer.
Kendra Perry: Unless you're the most amazing writer in the world.
Christine: But even then people get sick of that.
Kendra Perry: They want to see you, right?
Christine: Exactly. And they combine it. I'm a huge [Laura Bell Grey 00:31:56] fan. I worked with her a couple of times. And her [inaudible 00:32:00] are amazing. They're full of her personality, and she just does it because she's amazingly talented. But even so, she still uses photos too. But she manages to ... she's so talented it's crazy. Not a lot of people are. Just don't consider yourself to be as talented I would say.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and there's so many ways to share video content these days. And I think people get really uncomfortable and nervous about live video, but if you're not comfortable on life video, you can still share pre-recorded video. Instagram Stories is all pre-recorded video. IGTV, which is the biggest bang for your buck for engagement on Instagram right now, like seriously, it is the biggest bang for your buck. I'm getting like six times more engagement on my IGTV videos than I am on feed posts right now, and even Instagram Stories. Instagram really wants to push it. And it's a pre-recorded video, maximum 10 minutes. What a great amount of time to get super to the point but actually teach and educate people.
Christine: Exactly. And I expect that your Instagram feed is going to be like your mini-website and your IGTV is what Instagram is pushing for, like I really think that's video and so forth.
Christine: And a little trick that I have because I never expect to actually watch or listen to whenever I do a video or a podcast, so whenever they do I'm super surprised and that's not a lie. Because I just assume, and Kendra and I are just recording this, but I actually don't ... well I do believe it, I know it's true, but I never have, in the back of my head, that you guys will actually watch all of [inaudible 00:33:41]. So whenever I speak with you I'm just like, "Oh god this is so embarrassing, you actually listen?" It's really weird, so I kind of bubble myself into that world and that's how it works for me. But I think that's something you could do. Just assume nobody's ever going to watch it.
Kendra Perry: I mean in the end, especially when you're new, probably not a lot of people are going to be watching it anyways. And I think it's really important, with video, like it's not something that we both came into the world being good at. If you go back, I'm sure, and look at Christine's early videos or my early Facebook lives, it's like not the same person because I was not comfortable. The first time I went live on video was Periscope when that used to be a thing.
Christine: Oh my god, it was so embarrassing.
Kendra Perry: I know, I hated it because I go live on this video. I'm like, been nervous all day. I've created this whole script. I'm so, so, so nervous. And then all I'm getting is comments being like, "Nice pitch, show your boobs."
Christine: Show your boobs. Yes.
Kendra Perry: And I'm like what is happening, what is happening? I'm trying to talk about adrenal fatigue, what's happening? I don't know why all the perverts were on Periscope, but that's where they hung out.
Christine: Yeah, agreed.
Kendra Perry: Luckily you don't have to deal with that on Facebook live. But I think it's something that you will never be good at unless you do it consistently. You've got to do it all the time. And eventually ... like I never would have thought that I could just hop onto live video with no preparation and just talk about a subject at length. I never would have thought I would do that, but now I can, because I've probably put out 300 live videos at this point in my career, right?
Christine: Yes. Yes. And also again, if I look at my first videos, I feel comfortable with it, it's because I always taught and always done things like that, but I wasn't myself in the beginning. I still have straightened hair and all kinds of bullshit. But now you just see me with bed hair.
Kendra Perry: I feel like you're in your bed when you record at the time.
Christine: I am actually. I actually am. And you'll see my headboard or I'm in my hotel room and I just rolled out of bed. And it's not even having make up on. And it doesn't matter. And funny enough, I sometimes feel that the videos I shoot off location, so without studio lights and here in my office, but I do spontaneously at an airport or in my hotel room, so very often those will get the most resonance. So mix it up. Keep it professional but also don't be afraid to just impromptu shoot a video. Because you can, you have your phone with you. There's nothing else you need.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, absolutely. And something also that's kind of cool too, is I think YouTube just introduced vertical video. So if you're making an IGTV video, with is just going to be vertical, like you holding your phone, you can actually just upload it to YouTube as well, straight from a YouTube app on your phone. So that's something they just rolled out. So repurposed content, right, is a really good way to ...
Kendra Perry: Hope I won't go crazy.
Christine: Exactly. So watch out or listen to our episode with Jamie Palmer, I think it's the second or third episode on our podcast ever. It's still one of my favorites. And [inaudible 00:36:47] and I work with Jamie actually.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, we do. We love Jamie.
Christine: We love her. But its changed both of our businesses tremendously. So go and have a look at that. When you know who you are, when your branding is ready, then go and have a look at that.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and especially when you're new. I know it's easy to compare yourself to other people, like if you go check out, like my business you'll see that I'm on all the social media platforms, but I also have a team. I have a team of people who does that. When you're new and starting out, you can't make specific content for every platform. You need to choose one platform that you know that's where your ideal client is hanging out, and maybe it's a platform that you actually enjoy using, and then just try to make one piece of content each week, and then you repurpose, right? And you put it out on other platforms. But this is a little bit off topic, but it's also [crosstalk 00:37:32].
Christine: The only other thing also that I want to say, and you just said it, that don't try to be like other people, is that sometimes people say look at what other people do in your industry. And I would actually highly encourage you against that. Because you are different. And for example, I don't have a problem training people at what I do and become a member of my team, because I know that even if five of us do exactly the same thing, and they are going to, whoever the potential client is, is going to resonate with someone different. And I see it because one of mentees just used my tagline. And I told her she could use part of it, not all of it. But it doesn't actually suit here. Because when you talk to her, she isn't like that. So whenever I work with my mentees, although we use the same structure and we have the same business, they all have a different person they are drawn to and that they naturally connect with.
Christine: And I ask them that, you know? "Who are the people who usually open up to you? Who are the people that just when you are in a room with people, who you just suddenly sit somewhere, offside, having a beer with and just a great conversation. Who are they?" Those are the people who are you, who you naturally resonate with. So don't use copy from someone else's website. Even if you just change it a little bit. It's not you. Whenever you're you, it's your brand, it's your voice, it's your aesthetic. The same as I find some very sleek fonts very nice, whereas others are more for the brushstroke kind of thing. You need to go with what belongs to you, what you would wear if you could put it on. And if you had a fashion show to go to to represent you, what would you feel most comfortable in, that's you.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I agree.
Christine: But don't copy it, it's not going to work.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I think people, you want to write your copy and write your social media posts exactly like you would talk. How would you actually talk? If you were just going to write that social media post, no one's going to see it as a journal entry, like what would it actually look like. And I think the biggest compliment you can get is when someone's like, "I already feel like I know you." I get that with my strategy sessions with the coaches, and they're like, "I feel like I already know you." They don't realize it but that's the best compliment that anyone can give me because that means that what I'm doing is working, right?
Christine: Exactly. Exactly. And don't hide yourself. Don't pretend to be anything that you're not. And I noticed it a lot recently, the latest podcast interviews that I've done, and I've done quite a few in the last two to three months. People love them. And it's not me just saying that. I literally had three people get back to me yesterday about three different podcast interviews, and saying, "This was such a great episode." And it's episodes where I talk about how I changed, how, yes, my marriage ended. But also how I made money, the crosses I had to go through, the ugly sides, but also everything I believe in, which might be sometimes uncomfortable. And just being, not vulnerability alert, blah, blah, blah, but just like I'm not better than you just because sometimes things were hard, this is just what it's like. I'm being very honest.
Christine: And I think that's the other thing, when you're journaling or whenever something triggers you, always ask yourself am I honest right here? Honesty is the most important word that you can have in your life. I honestly ... I honestly believe that. I really think so.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I mean I love that. Honesty. It's so true. Like we said, it doesn't happen overnight. It's not like you're just going to listen to this episode and know exactly what to do. It's going to be a work in process. You're going to make some mistakes. You're going to have to switch things and change things and revamp things. It's always a work in progress, but in the end just don't try to be who you think you should be, just be you. Just be who you are, exactly how you would in everyday life.
Christine: Agreed. And I just want to do a little bonus thing here. I just really quickly want to share the people and the tools that helped me the most. And you can do too, Kendra.
Kendra Perry: Sure.
Christine: But one thing that I'm sharing all the time, listen to my podcast interviews, is Tapping Into Wealth, by Margaret Lynch. If you want to be comfortable with money and selling yourself, then I've worked with a couple of different coaches. But one that I'm still working with regularly is [Halinda 00:42:04] Moors, so Moors M-O-O-R-S. She's my energy, quantum field kind of person. I still don't know how it works exactly, but it works. I also work with Heather Jones, she's an EFT practitioner that really helped. I worked with Amber Dugger, my financial coach.
Kendra Perry: We had her on the podcast. She's on like a [inaudible 00:42:22] episode.
Christine: She's amazing.
Kendra Perry: Check it out.
Christine: Check it out. [Katimonstas 00:42:26] Peters is also ... she's a witch, really. She's amazing. Check it out. She's fantastic, helped me a lot. So I work with [Meryl Creeksman 00:42:36]. She's changed her business so she doesn't offer the same package that I used to do. And then those were I think, personal development wise, huge. And also Doctor Drema Dial. She's a psychologist and she's helped me a lot too. And [Robin Collette 00:42:53]. So you can see I work and get help from a lot of different people. But you meet people when you're supposed to meet them. And they've helped me tremendously over the last time. And you cannot do it alone. I think that's the message. And I would have saved so much money if I had worked, well more, on my own personal development earlier.
Kendra Perry: I agree.
Christine: And it never stops.
Kendra Perry: It never stops. Yeah like I always talk about having three counselors. For talk therapy, I see someone for trauma release, and then me and my partner see a couples counselor even though our relationship is great, because we work on prevention, right? And just continually learn how to better communicate with each other. But the counseling has been a big thing for me because you do get triggered in your business. It will bring out all your biggest insecurities. Every time I launch something, I'm still that girl in high school who's wondering if anyone's going to show up to my party, right?
Christine: I know because you tell me and it's adorable. And I'm like, "Kendra, chill." Is anyone going to show up to my party?
Kendra Perry: I know. It's funny but I get triggered from high school because I was bullied, I had really toxic female friends in my life. I've actually seen some of that, those feelings in high school come up recently in my business, especially in relation to internet trolls. That's something I've been dealing within my business recently. So I called up my counselor and I was like, "I'm ready to deal with the high school shit. Let's go four sessions and let's go for it." I don't want some stranger on the internet who hates their life, who just wants to spew negativity at me, affect me the way that it affects me. It really affects me and it has nothing to do with me. So I can tell that it's triggering high school Kendra.
Christine: Exactly. And then you cry, it's hard, it sucks, you're sick for two days, and then you get through it.
Kendra Perry: That's right. And you learn to recognize it. Those feelings are still going to come up, you're still going to feel that triggering sensation, but when you do the personal work and you actually grow and start to heal, you're able to step back from it and be like, "Okay, that's triggering me. Why is that triggering me? Okay cool. These are the tools that I have so that I don't go into fight or flight."
Christine: Exactly. And that's when you show up authentically, fearlessly, genuinely, honestly, and that, ladies and gentlemen, is your brand.
Christine: All right. Juicy, juicy stuff girl. Now I have like goosebumps all over.
Kendra Perry: I know, I'm sweating, but it's actually [crosstalk 00:45:31]
Christine: I know. [crosstalk 00:45:35] I hope they can't see the little sweat things on my noose.
Kendra Perry: I'm glad everyone can't see my boob sweat.
Christine: My god. No I like, I have the weirdest sweat spot, it's under my lip and on my nose. Like I swear all the glands are on my nose.
Kendra Perry: I get the sweat mustache.
Kendra Perry: All right guys, thank you so much for putting up with us as always. We're always completely blown away when you want to hang out with us. It's like so weird. But what I am going to say? Oh yeah, if you like this episode and you are an Instagram user, screenshot this episode on Instagram, share it to your stories, and tell us your biggest take home. And we will share your stories, to our story, because we love Instagram, and we love Instagram Stories. And if you don't use Instagram, just go give us a five star review on iTunes. No big deal, no big deal. [inaudible 00:46:27]
Christine: It would make us very, very happy.
Kendra Perry: Yeah it will. And we'll read it on air.
Christine: Yes, yes. Absolutely. All right. Have a great time every one and we'll talk to you in two weeks.
It’s rare these days to come up with an original topic to create content on. You should be posting new content one or two times a week…that’s at least 52 topics a year! While that sounds daunting, Christine has 4 tips to create and find content topics easily.
After each session with her clients, Christine will jot down any and all questions her clients asked. Though some questions may seem obvious to you, like “how can I sleep better?” the average person may not know and typically if one client asks, there are 5 other clients asking the exact same question! So use that to your advantage and create content based on what they are asking about.
If your clients are aren’t asking the questions, then find out what people are searching on the web! You can do this by typing in your topic or keyword into Google search and see what comes up. By typing in “how” and “sleep”, you’ll find many questions that people are looking to solve. Like “how to sleep fast” and “how much melatonin for sleep”. Sometimes it doesn’t always give you what you’re looking for….“how do fish sleep” won’t be a topic we wil be covering any time soon.
Answerthepublic.com is also another place you can find out what people are asking. Again, you can enter your topic, like sleep, and it will give you two different ways of looking at the questions. One's it's a graphic map outlining all the what, why, and how’s, or you can few the same questions in the Data field which lists them. And if you scroll to the very bottom, you’ll find related searches based on your keyword. You will find more content ideas that you ever needed on this site!
Lastly, another way to find content topics is through your continuing education. Whenever you learn something new whether it’s through a webinar, conference or a course you’re taking, blog about it! Share what you learned and provide your insights…like we did after the Social Media Marketing World Conference.
With these 4 tips, you. should be off to the race with content topics!
Hey everyone, and welcome to this episode of the 360 Biz Bomb Advice. And today I'm going to talk about how to find ideas for content creation. So, if you're like me, you at least try to promote content once or twice a week. And sometimes it feels like we've spoken about things over, and over, and over again.
So here's a couple of things that I do, in order to find new content. Number one, is after each client session, I take quick notes about the questions that they ask. And sometimes, I find it obvious, but it isn't. So, even the really obvious questions for me, I write them down, and very often they ask the same questions over and over again. And if you count it, it's only 56 topics a year. So, in the second year, don't hesitate to do a new video and new update on the same content. Nobody's going to go through all your blog or not many people will, and you will have learned new things that you can use, new anecdotes and stories. So that's one.
The other thing is that you can go use Google keyword search and just use your term and see what else comes up and what people look for. You can actually just use your Google search bar and type in Sleep and it will give you suggestions. And there's another other one, and I actually need you to look it up because I always get it wrong. And I think it's called Answer the Public. Answer the Public, there it is. And if you go to that, it is fascinating. It has a really old grumpy man when you arrive. And you type in your search terms of the meat with your sleep, and then you get two different ways of looking at the data. One's it's a graphic. And then you have on the right there's a tab that's called Data, and it will give you all the questions that people are looking for, and you will have more content than you will ever need.
So, that's what I do for my content research, listening to people. I also buy magazines sometimes related to my topic. And, when I do continuous education, whenever I've just learned something, I will do a blog about it. So last time I did something on Gabba, for example, that was just from the course that I took, and I was like, oh, this is so interesting, so I immediately recorded it and I shared it. So, use your knowledge, use the continuous education that you're doing, and bring it out to the people.
So, that was my little tidbit for today. I hope it was helpful, and I'll talk to you soon.
We were googley-eyed over today’s guest…the OG of online health marketing, Lori Kennedy! Lori is the founder and CEO of The Wellness Business Hub which provides professional training and personal development for health practitioners looking to build and grow their businesses online. In 2012 she started her online business, while still running her in person nutrition consulting. By 2014 she was able to close in person consult and focus solely on her online programs. Holy crap right?! How did she do it? Well you’re about to find out.
Obviously a lot has changed since 2012…let’s face it, with online marketing things change daily! So how does Lori keep up? As she put it, the tactics change, but the fundamentals don't. For example, tactics could be what was webinars but are now FB live. The fundamentals of understanding the principles of client attraction and conversion and how to actually sell doesn’t change. And this also includes the evolution of personal brand. Back in Lori’s day (which makes her sound so old but she still a young duck), it was all about posting a blog a day to get your name out there. But now, it’s about showing up and being present on your social platforms – engaging with your followers and being a leader to your tribe. people in the health & wellness industry don't necessarily understand how to being a persona or a brand, they're used to teaching and providing recipes, and doing only that doesn't work in 2019.
Lori is also an expert on launching health & wellness programs and the first thing that needs to be done before anything is launched is to beta test the crap out of it! A beta test should have a minimum of 5 people, whether you’re doing a group program on one on one coaching. By doing a beta test first, you not only have testimonials from those clients for when you launch your full program, but you can make tweaks to what they liked, didn’t like and improve it.
In this episode, we talk about the benefits of beta testing, how mindset plays a role on how you run your business (even making 5 or 6 figures in a successful business, there are still things that trigger you), and the steps you need to take to create a successful online wellness course.
In addition to being the founder and CEO of The Wellness Business Hub, Lori is also a mom, and lover of all things related to coffee. Lori’s two foundational programs The Wellness Business Academy and The 10K Success System are growing a powerful community of health leaders who are transforming the way healthcare is done all over the world. She is also the host of The Business of Becoming Podcast for entrepreneurs who want to build the business and life of their dreams… all on their own terms.
Christine: Hello everyone, and welcome to this brand new wonderful episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. And today it's a Getty because you have Kendra Perry, my wonderful co hostess with the mostess.
Kendra Perry: Thank you.
Christine: And my humble self, Christine. And we match again, I don't know why, but you have to watch us on YouTube. It's the funniest thing in the world. Like, recently we just seem to have this dress for success amazing vibe. I don't know.
Kendra Perry: How did we both choose orange and black, like random colors, a color I never wear.
Christine: I know. [crosstalk 00:00:31] It's super weird. I don't know. I'm watching Mad Men so maybe I'm inspired by the 70s or something like that, I don't know. But today we have ... Oh, actually Lori is in the same vibe as well. We have-
Lori Kennedy: Just going to say, we all kind of are matchy matchy.
Christine: ... It's super true. Like, look at this stunning [inaudible 00:00:48] I feel. So let me introduce you to this fantastic guest of ours. You will learn so much in this episode. It will ... Seriously, your brain is going to explode. So Lori Kennedy is the founder and the CEO of the Wellness Business Hub, love that actually, which provides professional training and personal development for health practitioners looking to build and grow their businesses online. Two things that I can just say you have to have. If you just do one or the other, it's not going to work.
Christine: She's also a mom and a lover of all things related to coffee. Lori's two foundational programs, the Wellness Business Academy and the 10K Success System are growing a powerful business, a powerful community of health leaders who are transforming the way healthcare is done all over the world. She's also the host of the Business of Becoming Podcast for entrepreneurs who want to build a business and life of their dreams all on their own terms. And obviously, we are big fans of that. So sort of liked Lori to welcome you today and to help us with our listeners and to basically guide, teach us, let us know all your goodies that you have stored in your brain.
Lori Kennedy: Thank you for having me.
Christine: So for all of you, just very quickly, you can obviously catch the video on your audio, but also on YouTube if you want to see it, and on our website, which is 360healthbizpodcast.com. So fly over there and then Kendra, I'm going to give you the floor for our first questions that we're going to bombard Lori with.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Well, first of all, I would love to know just a quick version of your story, because I know you used to be a health coach and then you transitioned over to supporting health coaches. So can you tell us a little bit about, yeah, where you got started and how that transition happened just for our members who don't know you.
Lori Kennedy: Totally. I was actually a registered holistic nutritionist. And I've always been in the health industry. So I started as a personal trainer. I got my first PT certification in 1999 through the YMCA. I've never had a proper corporate job, so the nine to five thing wasn't really ever sort of in the cards for me. And I did personal training for a long time. I was part of a team, this was I guess my only sort of proper job. I was part of a team, a startup team for a 20,000 square foot health and fitness facility.
Lori Kennedy: And so because of my background, I was a gymnastics coach, and I was a competitive dancer and I was a camp counselor. I was in charge of the teen section. I was given this budget at 24 years old to go and outfit this massive section and create all of the programming for it and all of that. So that was really my foray, and to understanding what it was to be an entrepreneur, because there were two men who started this big facility. And during that time I was also still training and I was doing a lot of things and I decided to go back to school to become a registered holistic nutritionist, this was 2007.
Lori Kennedy: And from there it just sort of evolved. My career evolved. I had a full time practice for seven years that I closed at the end of 2014. I had my signature program called Wow! Weight Loss that ended up running in nine different locations, and I had licensed it out to dozens of health practitioners across Canada. And just very naturally, very organically found my way onto the internet, because I had two small children and I really wanted financial independence.
Lori Kennedy: I really wanted to have a bigger impact. I knew that I was made for more. I knew that having this one type of business wasn't going to be the end game for me. And so I started to take it online in 2012 and I did both at the same time. So I ran my full time nutrition practice while I was growing my online business, which is basically two full time jobs, plus I had two more kids. And I was able to make enough money at the end of 2014 to be able to close my nutrition practice. And so for me, the goal was I had to make 10% more than what I know I needed three consecutive months in a row.
Lori Kennedy: Because if I was able to do it three consecutive months in a row, that meant that I actually knew what I was doing, it wasn't random and I could just continue that. And so when that happened, that was my sort of exit plan from my nutrition. It took me about six months to probably end up closing it. And so since end of 2014, beginning of 2015, we've been growing this hub on the internet and servicing tens of thousands of practitioners and coaches and Fit Pros literally from all over the world.
Kendra Perry: That's amazing. And so I did the same. I did the Canadian school of natural nutrition as well. I did that same program and I would love to know what is your opinion on the business model that they teach in that program and maybe similar programs?
Lori Kennedy: So I think regardless of where you went to school, the school, the certification, their purpose isn't to teach you business. Their purpose is to give you the professional education that gives you a beginner skill set to start working with clients. Because the world that we now live in changes so frequently, I don't even think it would be possible for them-
Kendra Perry: But to the point.
Lori Kennedy: ... to really keep up with. And that's also not their purpose. It's like if you think about it from the perspective of a doctor. Yes, doctors have to have private practices, but imagine if half of the doctors education was in business versus in doctoring, right? Like, in all of the things that they needed. It's the same thing with us. I think anything ... Could curriculum be improved? Of course it could, but that's not their area of expertise. They teach what they know and what they know is the key fundamentals of the mind, body, spirit of holistically improving health.
Lori Kennedy: And so I think where the breakdown is, isn't so much in the professional institutions, it's in the lack of understanding that this is one aspect that is required to be successful. I think that's where the breakdown is, is I know for myself, when I went to do my PT certifications, when I went to go do my registered holistic nutrition designation, under no circumstances was I even aware at all that I was a business owner, that I was starting a company, that I had to do all of the things, learn all of the skills that would contribute to my success.
Lori Kennedy: I was just obsessed with figuring out the body and learning nutrition and geeking out on research. And it never occurred to me even after I graduated, even after I rented a space in a Wellness clinic. It took me over a year to figure out, "Oh, there is books on selling that I can read from the library." Like, what's marketing? I had a brochure and I ran free talks that my mom and her friends came to. It didn't occur to me at all that I also had to acquire the same level of skill set, if not greater, for business. So I think that's perhaps where the breakdown is, is that people going into these ...
Lori Kennedy: I think the one thing that we all have in common regardless of our designation, is that we come from a place of service first. So whether that's wanting to improve the quality of your own health or your family's health or your friends' health or whatever that may be, most of us who become health professionals do it because we want to be of service to ourselves or others. We do it because we're nerds and we geek out on this stuff and we like it, and it's interesting and we want to improve the quality of our health. And so we don't necessarily go into it thinking, "I'm going to do this as a business. I'm an entrepreneur. I better go and acquire skills." It's an afterthought, and I think that's where the breakdown is.
Christine: Yeah, very often. I don't entirely agree because that wasn't for me, it's always kind of different for another person. I really saw my niche and I was like, "I want to be an entrepreneur, and this is my niche where I want to go." And so it's a little bit different, but I do agree that 99% of the time it's exactly the kind of person or the journey that people take that are in the health industry. I'm just a greedy bitch, you know that.
Christine: It's just [inaudible 00:10:31]. But I mean you have got something of everything, and I do ... What is fascinating to me is that when you started, because I cannot imagine. Like, you've witnessed this whole transformation. And I just had a conversation with someone yesterday who was talking to me about all of these webinars they're trying to do, and I was like, "Well, that's very much 2017," which an internet peak is years ago, it's like eons ago. So when you started, I cannot even imagine what the trend was at the time.
Kendra Perry: Well, like, 2012 you're like the original gangster.
Lori Kennedy: Yes, that was like-
Kendra Perry: It's like OG in the house. Right? I'm like, "Jesus, was the internet around in 2012?"
Christine: I don't even know what happened 2012 but it's like, I mean, things must changed so much. Can you remember one thing that was super hot back then and that now is just cringe?
Lori Kennedy: You know what's really interesting about that? Tactics change, but the fundamentals don't. Right? And so the tactic of let's say webinar, which now the tactic would be Facebook Live, let's just say. Right? Webinars still work 100%, I'll just say that. They totally work when they're done right. But the tactics change, but the actual underlying principles of why you're using the tactic that hasn't changed, because business is business, marketing is marketing, it's been around. Direct response marketing and all of that good stuff has been around for how long, right?
Lori Kennedy: I think it's interesting to differentiate between the tactics that change every six months and being able to quickly pivot when the tactic changes because you understand that those underlying fundamentals, you understand the principles of client attraction and nurturing, and conversion and how to actually sell. So whether you're doing a live or a webinar or from the stage, the framework of what you're saying is the same, it's just the tactic changes. So one of the things that was super easy back in the day was blogging. It was ... I mean, you put up a blog and people saw it, right? People also read it, right?
Kendra Perry: Your like, "What? People saw my blog?" Freeze.
Lori Kennedy: They saw the blogs, and people read the blogs and people commented on the blogs.
Kendra Perry: What?
Lori Kennedy: And you didn't need all of this promotion to derive eyeballs to the blog. It just, it was there. And I remember like I've written, I don't even know how many blogs. I mean, I've been blogging since 2010, so for nine years. And there was years where I put out content every single day.
Kendra Perry: Oh my God.
Lori Kennedy: And that's because that's how you got eyeballs, right? Where now, people put out content every single day on Instagram or in a Facebook group. But here's the sort of clincher is if you don't understand how to write for engagement, for attraction, the blog wouldn't have worked back then and the posts don't work now. Right? So it's not so ... And I feel like this is also a mistake that most people make is they're copying the tactics because they see other people doing it and they don't actually understand the framework of how to use Instagram or how to use the Facebook group or how to even blog. Right?
Lori Kennedy: That it would actually get an ROI on your time. Meaning people would either comment or they would do an action from the blog. Right? And I think that's sort of ... It's for sure been so interesting to see the evolution of being a personal brand. You didn't need to be a personal brand back in 2011. You didn't even need to be a brand back in 2015, you didn't need to be. You could still be the professional. Now it's very different. Now people are like, "What color of underwear are you wearing?" And not like a common comment. It's different. It's totally different now with the evolution of Stories.
Lori Kennedy: I remember when Stories came out. I remember when Facebook Live came out. I remember, and it didn't exist. And to some degree I think because also, not all of us, I'm generalizing, but most people in our industry tend to be introverted, tend to be more highly sensitive, tend to be more private, and having to make that shift to becoming a celebrity, to becoming a persona, it's challenging for a lot of people. They don't understand how to communicate in that way, they're used to teaching. They're used to putting up tips and recipes, and that doesn't work in 2019. It worked-
Kendra Perry: Amen.
Lori Kennedy: ... 2015, and 2016 and 2017, but it doesn't work in 2019. To get engagement, to get that person to the next step where it would eventually result in them working with you.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I mean, that's amazing and it's such a good point. It is a hard thing to do because you're literally trying to show your personality and be yourself to your phone, pretending that there is other people on the other side and you're just like, "How do I actually be myself, who I am in real life with the internet and with my phone?" And you're right, it's such a hard transition. Yeah.
Lori Kennedy: I agree.
Kendra Perry: I mean, I've struggled with it. I feel it, but I mean anything is practice. You just got to do it over, and over and over again.
Lori Kennedy: And I think too, it's not just being yourself, it's having this authoritative frame. Right? Because I think there is a difference in people commenting and just being yourself and giving away free information and showing up with this authoritative, funny, engaging frame or persona that people want to follow. That people aren't just consuming your content because you're funny, right? They're consuming it because you're making them feel a certain way and you're giving them permission to feel however they want to feel, but also you're doing it with the intention of making them slightly uncomfortable so that they want to take an action to move forward.
Lori Kennedy: I think there's a difference, right? People who are just personal brands, who are like celebrities, they can just show up as themselves because they make money from being in movies. Right? You have to almost be a little bit more direct responsy in our persona, right? Where it's not just, "Here is a smoothie," but talking about why you made the smoothie and how the smoothie affected your mood or your insulin or whatever, and sort of adding that little component in, in that, like authoritative leadership type of way, which is really hard for people.
Lori Kennedy: And I think perhaps the reason that it's been easier for me is because I studied direct response marketing and copywritings, I still do. Like, that's my go to. I know how to tell a story, I know how to frame it out. I know my ICA inside and out, and so when I'm sharing being freezing ass cold on the baseball field with my kid, I understand how that's affecting them. I'm not just sharing it because I'm like, "Oh, shit I didn't post today."
Christine: Yes, exactly.
Lori Kennedy: Right?
Christine: I find it really interesting because you kind of talk about yourself, which is very vulnerable, and still you need to circle back to your expertise in a way that is not like a clean break, but it needs to be smooth, it's not easy. Not to forget that the more eyeballs you get, you're like, "Yay," but at the same time you also have comments that aren't so nice. Everyone's a critic nowadays, and so it's like it's this ... I think it's very hard, but at the same time when you talk to people, you tell them that's kind of what you have to do.
Christine: And sometimes it's just really, really ... It's against everything some people in our industry, not stand for, but it's not their character at all. I think Kendra and I, we've managed it and for me it's very, really easy, I just forget someone is watching this. I forget someone is listening to this. I'm always surprised when people actually do.
Christine: But if you're actually aware of that, which probably most people do, how do you help them to take that step and to [inaudible 00:19:34] I mean, you don't always have to take pictures of yourself or videos or even having a graphic and writing a story to it. How do you motivate those who just really cringe and tired, who would never do it according to their comfort zone or their persona? How do you do that? How do you help them to overcome that?
Lori Kennedy: I think that it's a really good question and it's part of a much bigger conversation. In the sense that if we go back to sort of what we started talking about, that most people didn't go into this to be an authority, to be a celebrity, to be an expert, they just wanted to help people not have IBS symptoms or whatever. Right? And so accept that in 2019 this is what's required or an element of that is what is required. And if your intention is to have impact, if your intention is to play bigger and not necessarily because you're driven by money, but if your intention is impact and you want to help as many people as humanly possible, let's just say get rid of IBS symptoms, then what you asked me is part of the bigger question of how are we going to help you to feel comfortable being a leader?
Lori Kennedy: How are we going to help you to feel comfortable holding space for hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of people putting you on a pedestal? How are we going to help you really step into that responsibility of being the authority of being the leader, of potentially being a boss to other people. It's part of this bigger question when I know for sure when I first started, the thought of having 12 people work for me never entered my mind. The thought of having tens of thousands of clients never entered my mind.
Lori Kennedy: The thought that people would be nervous to talk to me because they're feeling a certain way never entered my mind, but that's the truth of it now and it's a responsibility that I take very seriously. That requires me to do things on my end to make sure that I'm leveling up all the time to hold the space. And so it's part of that conversation of if you're not feeling comfortable putting forth your opinions and putting out content because you're scared that Aunt Sally is going to be annoyed by the fact that you're putting out really good content on your personal Facebook page.
Lori Kennedy: If you're nervous about pissing people off, if you're nervous about what other people are going to think of you, then that's where we need to work on that. We need to address this sort of root cause of that because it's a whole bigger conversation, right? When you start having 50 people or a hundred people, clients at a time, you got to get your self in order to be able to handle that. Nevermind like thousands of people, so-
Christine: That's why I love that you do personal development as well, because I think it's impossible to become successful if you don't do that.
Lori Kennedy: ... I totally agree. Again, I think people going into it don't have the awareness that it's their responsibility to do that kind of work. Right? They only think like, "I'm so interested in smoothies, and I'm so interested in IBS," and they don't think about it. And again, this is sort of the disconnect between the educational institutions and the understanding of what it really means to run a health focused business is that if you are not doing your own work, it's almost irresponsible to even see clients because you're putting your own shit in their world and that's not fair.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. And it ends up being really tough because if you don't do the work, you just get triggered all the time. You get triggered by the trolls-
Lori Kennedy: Everything triggers you.
Kendra Perry: ... you get triggered. It brings up all your insecurities and with me it still does. It's like when I'm launching something or doing a webinar, I'm still like that high school girl who's like, "Is anyone going to come to my party? [crosstalk 00:23:59]"
Lori Kennedy: No, but it's really true and I see it in my clients from the beginning and the clients who are now doing five figures a month. The difference in the things that trigger them. I still have things that trigger me. I do the work all the time. Right? I have a therapist. I belong to ... I invest in my ... I have a therapist and I have energy people.
Christine: You do?
Lori Kennedy: I see a trainer. I do my own work. We're getting ready to host a large event where I'm the host and there is things that we're doing that have me leveling up. That is causing some inner, like, who do I think I am type of things to come out and I'm having to do the work around that because I don't want to go into the event with that mindset, because that's not in service to the people that paid me money. That's not fair to them. Right? I need to hold space for hundreds of people in a contained environment. I need for four days.
Lori Kennedy: I need to do that work. Right? And so I think being able to look yourself in the mirror and say, and honor all of those ways in which doing an Instagram Story makes you uncomfortable, posting an opinion, putting your stake in the ground like I said before. Like, if you don't do this, I think it's irresponsible. That's a pretty opinionated thing to say. It's not the opinion, but I also have worked with tens of thousands of people and I sort of have the credibility to say that and also because I do with my own work.
Lori Kennedy: But I think it's getting really honest with yourself and it's also saying, "You know what? I have work to do," and honoring the work and honoring where you need to maybe improve some things. Maybe you do lack skills, which is a genuine reason for you to feel insecure. Right? You might actually lack skills, so go acquire the skills. Right? Don't just be upset that you don't have them, just go acquire them. Right? So it's that kind of stuff. It's acknowledging why these types of things make you really uncomfortable and then going and fixing it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I love the twist and the turn that this conversation has taken, because it's a really important conversation. But I do want to bring things back around to launching, because I know you are the launch queen and when we were originally talking about sort of the business model that maybe people think they are going to be doing when they come to school because like you said, there is a disconnect. They don't really know that there is all this other stuff they have to learn.
Kendra Perry: So I feel like a lot of people come out of school and they think they're going to run their business like a natural path, where they just like kind of put their sign out, they open up a business and people book these one off sessions. And I know for you, you really encourage people to create programs and group things. So can you just speak a little bit more to that?
Lori Kennedy: Yeah, totally. So in my opinion, and what we've seen is having some type of methodology that you become known for, like, this is your area of expertise. We call that a signature program. All a signature program is, it's a X module, step by step methodology that delivers a result. That methodology, in and of itself, is your ticket to freedom. Because when you have a methodology that delivers a specific result, the only way that you could come up with it is by identifying your ideal client to say, "Okay, I want to work with people who have IBS and this X module methodology at the end of it they're going to get this result."
Lori Kennedy: So that your brand and your business is set up to attract those people into your world, to all of them then go through your methodology. And you would then add on levels of support. So whether that's group calls or one on one calls, where I find people get a bit confused with this whole group coaching business is they do group coaching and then they have an entirely separate one on one thing on the side, and I'm like, "No, that's not your ticket to freedom."
Lori Kennedy: When you have a launch, which is really just a promotional event, you are putting an event around enrolling people into your program. And so because you have this methodology that hopefully is automated because you're able to put dozens of people through it because you are no longer creating on the fly, you're no longer repeating yourself a million times because you have this methodology you run everybody through, you can have a promotional event, you can have an enrollment event and you can also enroll people ongoing.
Lori Kennedy: And so launching in and of itself is one of the strategies that you would use to grow your business, because if you only ever launched, you'd only be enrolling clients two, three times a year. Well, I don't know about you, but I like to make money every day and I like to have impact every day. And so I don't want to be reliant only on launching two or three times a year because what happens if one of them flops or Facebook shuts off your ads, which had like ... You don't want to put all your eggs in one basket.
Lori Kennedy: And so I love launching, I think that they're great. I totally think that they still work. A lot of people are like, "Oh, launches are dead." They're just different. It's just different now. The way that you have to go about them is a little bit different than you did in 2015, for example, or even 2017. But the whole idea is to have this mainstay of your business, right? And the mainstay is this methodology by which you deliver a specific result. It's what you become known for, it's what makes you the expert, otherwise you're just bopping all around, helping anyone and everyone, and that's not a way to grow business.
Kendra Perry: Great. Yeah, and I like what you said. So you mentioned people who have ... They're like, this is the group coaching and this is the one on one, but you're saying that people should combine it. And what you mean by that is maybe like running people through a group and then they upgrade to become a one on one client or just having a one on one client thing and you put everyone through some sort of methodology. Is that what you mean by that?
Lori Kennedy: Kind of. I think it's definitely a paradigm shift. You can do it any way you want. Right? I think it's just understanding what your goals are. So if you have a group program, what that means is people start and stop on specific days. So the group cohort would start on September 15th and end on November 15th, but that means that people who see you, who contact you in October, they would then have to wait until February, let's just say. Well, that kind of sucks for everybody. So you can have groups, but because you have this methodology, you're also able to enroll people all the time.
Lori Kennedy: So the way that I teach it is think about the methodology and its own self contained container, right? So the methodology is the methodology, it's your 12 module program, let's just say. And if you wanted to run that as a group, you could. You could also simultaneously have people enrolling into it all the time, in which case you could then offer weekly group calls. And it doesn't matter when anybody ... If they're all at different points in the program, it doesn't matter.
Lori Kennedy: You could then offer an additional level of support, which would be one on one calls. Right? It's like when you go to ... I go to this place called BodyBlitz downtown, it's like waters and it's amazing. And so they have like the base, which is the waters, right? You go in the water and you go to the sauna and you do the whole thing, right? It's like the ... What's it called when you go around? I can't remember.
Kendra Perry: Like a circuit or something.
Lori Kennedy: A circuit, thank you. It's like a circuit. But then you can add on a massage and you can add on to this and you could add on different levels of small packages. It's the same thing. It's kind of like that for the program. You have your base methodology and then you could add on group calls and you could add on one on one supports so that anyone can start at any time, so that you're constantly enrolling people. And then during the hot times of the year, January, September, the spring, you could launch and do a group.
Kendra Perry: Right. I see what you're saying.
Lori Kennedy: Right? So-
Kendra Perry: Yeah. You're promoting this evergreen model where people are just-
Lori Kennedy: ... Yes.
Kendra Perry: ... Because yeah, I totally agree with you. Having a big launch three times a year is nice. You can make a bunch of money, but yeah. I mean yeah, Facebook ads getting shut off or like so many things could happen that could make it unsuccessful and then you're screwed for the next six months.
Lori Kennedy: Exactly. Right? So being able to run your business that way allows you to also scale it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: So I have a question for you. When do you think is a good time to start your first group program? Because I just talked to someone that I signed up as a mentee and she was basically told to immediately start with a group program because it does have so many advantages, you don't need to ... It's much less time for you, obviously lots is automated, you just do the group calls.
Christine: However, till she started her business she hasn't had a single private client yet. I was like, "Well, it's going to be difficult to fill your group program, and if you have your group calls and there is nobody there or just one person they might wonder where's the rest of the bunch?" Right? So when do you consider a good point to start a group program?
Lori Kennedy: So this again goes back to having a group or running it one on one is a tactic. So the way that I teach people is let's build your methodology, right? And Beta test the methodology. So if you have a 12 module system, right? You're getting rid of IBS symptoms, you're not custom making that program to each individual person. You're thinking, "Okay, what are the fundamentals that my ideal client, a person who has X, Y, and Z symptoms, what are the fundamentals that they need to learn and do in order to get an X result?"
Lori Kennedy: And to the way that we teach it is I want you to create the methodology and I want you to Beta test it. If you want to have five of your friends start the Beta test at the same time, great. A group, right? If you want to run seven people through it independently, one on one, great. Either way, we have an ethical responsibility as the practitioners to test our methodology before we do anything. Right? And so whether you're starting with one on one or a group to me is irrelevant, I want to know that what you're doing is quality.
Lori Kennedy: I think people have this idea that they need to start with a group or start one to one. No, you need to put X number of people through a Beta test. Then you can say, "Okay, now that my hypothesis is Beta tested," right? "Now that I've had seven people go through it," whether they started at the same time or not is irrelevant. You can then go, "Okay, I feel super confident about the program I'm going to run because I got all this feedback, I've taken time to fix it. I've taken time to go through it."
Lori Kennedy: And then if they wanted to run a group, they would have had testimonials, because they've run a Beta test, right? If they wanted to start with a group of let's say five people, they could. If they wanted to do it one on one, they could, but it's wrapped around putting people through a methodology. Right? So when people say like, "I don't have any client experience," because people in our program say that they come in because they don't have it. I'm like, "You don't need it. Go create your methodology and Beta. Go put it through a Beta test. That's your experience. That's your first five clients. That's your first 10 clients."
Lori Kennedy: We recommend in the Wellness Business Academy that you Beta test with minimum five people. Right? So after you've done that, then you can say, "Okay, what's the model that I'm going to use to facilitate this program?" The model would be either running it as a group or enrolling clients on a one on one basis, but regardless, everybody goes through that methodology because it's the ticket to freedom so that you're not constantly creating different things for different people when everybody needs the fundamentals anyway.
Christine: Yeah. I mean, that's genius. I love the idea of Beta testing. I've done it quite a few times because, yeah, you're not going to hit the nail on the head the first time, especially when you're brand new and by doing that you can actually like get feedback from your people and figure out what are they missing? Maybe something you didn't even think about, you're like, "Oh, they really need this and so I should be offering that." It's almost like this co-creation sort of thing. Your ideal clients and your expertise, which I think is super intelligent.
Lori Kennedy: And I think for those people too, who don't have client experience, it alleviates so much pressure of needing the program to be perfect. Right? When we teach people to be like, "Don't worry, it's going to suck. That's why your Beta testing." You need the people to give you all the feedback, otherwise you spend a year in perfectionistic syndrome being like, "I don't know," and you're all nervous because you have no frame of reference whether it's going to work or not. Well, of course. So having that Beta test, having sort of that ... Letting even the clients off the hook, people charge for the Beta or they don't charge, to me it's irrelevant. I don't care.
Lori Kennedy: I just want you to do it. I want you to go through the experience to get the feedback, to see how your overwhelming or how you're underwhelming your clients so that you can make it better, which you will probably iterate the program three or four times in the first year before you even feel like super good, but you can go out and scale. I think people come out of school and do their first year and they're like, "I'm not at six figures yet. Why?" And I'm like, "Because that's not how it works. You're still working at the case- "
Kendra Perry: Yeah, you can't build a business in 90 days.
Lori Kennedy: ... Like, "Hello, you're still working at the case." Right?
Christine: Well, I pay for that.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, it's a really important conversation because I see a lot of coaches doing this where they spend six months to a year creating this program and spending all this money and time to make this perfect program, and they go to sell it and it doesn't sell or people take it and it doesn't work and then it's really frustrating. Right? It's really disheartening. I've actually been guilty that I did that with my first online program ever. I did all the wrong things.
Lori Kennedy: It's really upsetting. And part of that is because they just don't have the experience and the skillset creating a program. The program in and of itself isn't what sells the program. People come, even in my world too, they're like, "I tried to launch this thing and it didn't work, maybe I need to go and recreate the program." I'm like, "No, you need to learn how to sell."
Lori Kennedy: How would you know that the program sucks if you didn't have anybody go through it? That doesn't make any sense to me. It's not the program that sells the program, it's your ability to identify the person's pain and connect the program to that pain and to be able to say, "Here is how this is going to help you when nothing else has in the past." It's the ability to know how to use that language.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I feel that people, yeah, they get into business and instead of updating their business knowledge like, "Oh, I need another health certification or I should go to that school. I need to upgrade, take that course." And they just keep piling up these courses when really they actually ... You're right, they need to learn how to sell. They need to read a book on direct response copywriting, which everyone should if you take anything from this episode.
Lori Kennedy: Yeah. And I think the reason that they don't is because that's not what they signed up for.
Kendra Perry: Exactly.
Lori Kennedy: And rightfully so, none of us signed up for that. Except that's what's required.
Kendra Perry: It's a slap in the face, isn't it?
Christine: So for those of you who are listening and who are like, "Crap." I'm super proud because I know well, my smoothie represent recipes and I just finished all my blog posts. You just want to cry, don't, as you know we provide solutions. So Lori tell us a little bit about, you were afraid that you teach all of this. Walk us through that. I read the two quizzes or the two programs, the two main programs that you have. So tell us a little bit about those.
Lori Kennedy: Yeah. So the Wellness Business Academy is for you, if you don't yet have a signature program, if you've not created one, if you've not Beta tested it, if you've not created it in an automated scalable way. So before we can grow a business, we need something to use to grow it with and that would be your signature program. And so once that's done, then we move you into the 10K Success System, which is really about scaling, right? It's about getting that five figure a month revenue. It's about working on a lot of this mindset stuff to be able to show up as an authority, show up as a leader. It's paid traffic. It's a lot of those next level things that come after having the foundation, which is your signature program and the Beta test.
Christine: Love it. Yeah, absolutely love it. So where can people buy?
Lori Kennedy: We have an application process, specifically for the 10K Success System because it's not right for everybody, and we want to ... We protect our clients very much, we protect the culture that we're building inside of that community. I think the best place to go honestly would be my Instagram. I think there is ... If you go to my Instagram, which is at Lori Kennedy Inc, I'm sure you'll link to it in your show notes.
Christine: We will.
Lori Kennedy: In my bio there is an opportunity for you to schedule a brainstorming call with our success coaches. So it's a free call, it's a brainstorming call. If they feel like you're a good fit for other one, they'll let you know at the end of the call. And if that's something that you want to discuss, you can, otherwise, it's just really helpful to get on a call with our coaches so that you can see the gaps and where you need to improve. I think a lot of people have a hard time because they're not even sure where the gaps are in their skills. They just know that they're not gaining the momentum and attraction that they want.
Lori Kennedy: And so our priority and our responsibility is first and foremost before we even introduce you to anything, is to really help you to see where the breakdowns are so that ... Our solutions may or may not be right for you. And if they are, we'll obviously tell you. But I think either way it's so important to have people in your life to help you gain that clarity, to be able to understand ... It's the reason that I just joined another mastermind because we are growing, and I don't know what's going to break.
Lori Kennedy: And I know enough now to know that there is other people out there that can tell me. I don't want to ... if I can avoid the break, I'm going to pay for that. I'm going to pay a lot of money for someone to be able to say to me, "When you hit X, this is what will likely happen. So let's navigate against that now." I want that, right? So that's part of what we do, is if you want to get to five figures, here is what we need to have in place, otherwise you will want to quit because you will be tired. Right?
Kendra Perry: So for now it's awesome.
Lori Kennedy: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I love how much you're infusing the mindset stuff into it because it's so important and it's definitely something that I never knew. I didn't know I was going to have to like figure my shit out to be able to run a business. Like, it's crazy. Like I'm like ... I mean, it's amazing because I think it's made me a better human and I've learned so much about myself, but yeah, you really got to like figure your shit out.
Lori Kennedy: It's a super confronting.
Christine: It's tough but you're a better person for it, always. But you can never go back though people, so if you don't want to know ...
Lori Kennedy: You never go back.
Christine: You never go back.
Lori Kennedy: And it may be slightly hard to live in the world when you [inaudible 00:45:35]
Lori Kennedy: It makes it hard to be amongst the people. But then you find your own people and you're good.
Kendra Perry: Exactly. You find your little crowd, which is much more genuine and more intense than anything, but yeah, a lot of people were just like, "Gosh, I will be fine." That's why I found you Christine, just so I can box you all day long. You're my therapist. Awesome. Well, thank you so much Lori. There was so many good gems in this, we really appreciate you being-
Lori Kennedy: Yeah, thank you. This is great.
Kendra Perry: ... on interview with us. So definitely check out Lori at Lori Kennedy Inc on Instagram. I follow you. I love following you, you have really good info there, great stories, so you guys should all follow her. And guys, if you love this episode, you got to let us know. Go to iTunes or wherever. I think you can leave a review on Spotify too, I don't even know. But go to iTunes, leave us a five star review and just let us know that you love this content so that we can keep putting it out there for you. That is the number one way you can support us and it only takes two minutes, probably not even.
Christine: Yeah, and feel free to follow us on Instagram, 360 Health Biz Podcast, and also to send us messages. Like, if you have any requests or anything you want us to talk about, you know we're a game for everything, just-
Kendra Perry: We're a game.
Christine: ... We will do that, so we're totally open for requests.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Thanks guys. So we'll see you guys again in two weeks.
Lori Kennedy: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: Take care.
Kendra has 3 great tips to optimize your Instagram bio, including what to put in the name field (hint it doesn't have to JUST be your name), what your description should say, and you always want a great call to action...unfortunately none of this should include how much you love puppies.
Instagram is THE place to promote yourself, we are seeing far more people go to Instagram as their starting point when looking for a new anything. And the first thing people see when they go to an Instagram page is the bio section. What you do not want here is an undescriptive sense of what you do...OR you don't want to be over descriptive of things that aren't relative to what you're trying to promote. "I am an ITN, FDN and essential oils coach. I really like the mountains, puppies and I'm a mom of 3 kids and 2 puppies. Did I mention I like dogs?" Listen, we all love dogs (though Kendra and Christine are both cat people) but no one is going to have a clue what you ACTUALLY do and will likely not follow you.
When it comes to your Instagram bio, start by including what you do in the name section. The name section allows for 30 characters or less so be creative but make it something that will intrigue people, like Christine Hansen Sleep Expert or Kendra Health Coach Mentor. Not only are these intriguing titles where you want to find out more, but the name field in Instagram is searchable! So if someone typed in "health coach mentor" guess who appears at the very top of the search list? And as a new practitioner starting out, that will be a HUGE advantage for you.
Once you've got your catchy name, you want a simple but clear description. As mentioned, dogs should be excluded from the description unless you run a dog walking business. Make it incredibly clear about what you do, who you help, and make it solution or action based.
And included in your brief & clear description, you want a strong call to action. This could be anything from "DM for more information" or "click here to download my free guide". People want to be told what to do. If you want people to take a specific action, then you need to say it. If you just launched a new YouTube video - include the link to watch it directly! If you have a free download - include the link in your Instagram bio! Don't just direct to your website and have them figure out where it lives because it won't take them long in the search before they close out of that window and leave your instagram page.
Still not sure what to do with your Instagram bio? Take a screenshot of your Instagram bio, put it to your Instagram stories, tag 360 Help Biz Podcast, and we'll go through and we'll actually review your bio and give you some feedback. And don't forget to follow us if you don't already.
Hey, guys. I'm Kendra Perry, and welcome to your Biz Bomb Episode of the 360 Help Biz Podcast. This is the episode where we take a huge biz bomb full of information. We throw it in your face, and then your head explodes because you're so excited with the information. So today guys, we're going to be talking about the Instagram bio. I'm going to give you three ways that you could optimize your Instagram bio for your ideal client. Okay? So the first thing I want to talk about is your name. The space where you put your name in, not a lot of people know this, but that's actually searchable. So if you're brand new and starting out, there's actually not a lot of benefit to putting your name in the name field, weird but true. Okay? Because if say I'm a brand new health coach, a lot of people might not actually be searching for Kendra Perry, possibly no one, right? Especially if you're brand spanking new. Okay?
So a really good tip is to put your first name with a dash or a line or a slash or whatever, and then what it is that you do, something that people might actually be searching for. So if you go to my Instagram bio, you'll see Kendra dash health coach mentor. Or in the past, I think I've had Kendra dash business mentor. Okay? So maybe yours is Karen dash mindset coach or Jenna dash meal plan expert or whatever it is that you do, because that is a searchable word. So it's in your best benefit to have something in there that's searchable that you actually think your ideal client might be looking for. Okay? So that's tip number one.
Tip number two is your description. This is where I see so many people go wrong. When I go on to different health coach accounts, I see this all the time. I see this mistake all the time. Okay? What I see is that people are being really kind of undescriptive about what they do. They're not being very clear, and they might just be listing their certifications, their hobbies, where they live. Maybe it's like, "I'm certified through IIN, I've done ITN, FDN, I'm an essential oils coach. I really like the mountains. I like puppies and I'm a mom." As nice as that is, when I come to that, I actually have not a frigging clue what you do, not a clue. I'm going to see that, I'm going to be confused and I'm probably not going to follow you. It's really, really important to use the characters that you do have in your description to be incredibly clear about what it is you do and who you help, and make it solution based.
If you're someone who helps women lose weight, for example, you might say, "I'm a health coach who helps busy women lose 10 pounds without changing their diet or without getting stressed out." That's really specific. So instead of just saying like, "weight loss coach," I might go to that because maybe I am a busy mom who needs to lose 20 pounds, and as soon as I see that I'm going to be like, "Oh, shit. this is a good account for me to follow and I'm going to click the follow button." Because the truth is, you only have about five seconds to really catch someone's attention and make them want to follow you. Okay? So you need to be incredibly, incredibly specific, and within that description it should be solution-based or action-based, like what is the problem that you help this person solve and what is the solution that you're going to help them get?
So feel free to check out my Instagram account or even the 360 Help Biz Podcast Instagram account because kperrynutrition is my personal Instagram, and then 360healthbizpodcast is our podcast one. Feel free to go check that out and see how specific we are in our description. Because basically you go there and you know exactly what I do. You know that I help health coaches master hair mineral analysis plus hit 10k a month in their business, right, so very action based. So you're a new health coach and you're like, "I'm only making 3k a month. I really want to hit five figures," and you see that, you would probably follow me. Because you'd be like, "Okay, this chick's going to help me hit five figures." Or you're like, "I'm really interested in hair mineral analysis. I'm really interested in doing this test. I can't figure out where to learn it." And you see my profile, you're going to be like, "Oh my God, she teaches it. I'm going to follow her and listen to everything she says."
See where I'm going here? It's really, really important to be as specific as you absolutely possibly can so that you grab your ideal client's attention. So it should be very specific to your ideal plan. You don't know who your ideal client is, well, that's your first problem, right? You're going to want to spend some time actually figuring out who you're talking to so you know what to put in your Instagram bio. Okay? The third thing is to make sure you have a really strong call to action in that description. That should be the other half of it. So you have your name with your searchable term, you have your really specific description about what you do and what problem you solve, and then you have something that's a call to action.
That could be, "DM start to learn more," right? So maybe if I have, "I teach you how to grow to five figure a month in your business with a minimalist business model, DM start to learn more." Basically, I'm telling you exactly what to do. I'm not even saying, "Just DM me to learn more." I'm telling you what to DM me. I'm telling you to say "start," because people really want to be told what to do. You don't want to leave it up to them because in the end they might not do the thing that you actually want them to do. People aren't mind readers, so if you want people to take a specific action, and you do right? Then you need to say it. So maybe it's like, "This is my free opt-in. Click here," and that's your link below, whatever it is.
A really good thing to put in your link would not be to just be your website but would actually to be your free offer or your free lead [inaudible 00:05:45] or maybe your latest YouTube video or your latest podcast episode or whatever it is that you want to put there. I really don't recommend using just your website because you want to be very specific. Going back to helping moms lose weight, you could say like, "Get my free checklist that helps you lose your first five pounds," and then have a little arrow or a pointy finger to that link that goes directly to your opt-in. Okay? If people really want to find your website, they'll be able to find it, or they'll just contact you through Instagram.
So that's really, really important, is that you have a very, very strong call to action. Let's quickly run through these one more time, guys. Number one is to make sure that where you put your name, you also have a searchable term of what you do. So me as a business mentor, I might put Kendra dash business mentor. You as a health coach, you might say Karen dash mindset coach or essential oil coach or whatever, weight loss coach. Okay? Something that you think your ideal client might actually be searching. The second thing is to be very, very specific with your description. Don't list your hobbies. Don't list your certifications. Just list what you do and who you help and how you help them solve it. So be very, very specific with this, and if you need inspiration, make sure to check out KPerryNutrition.
You can check out Christine's profile because she's also very specific. She's sleeplikeaboss or check out our 360 Help Biz Podcast account because on all three accounts we're very specific. And then number three is to have that really, really strong call to action where you tell people exactly what to do, whether it's pointing people to your free opt-in, your new YouTube video, your new podcast, or even just telling me, "Send me a DM with the word start to learn more." Make it specific. Tell people exactly what it is you want them to do.
All right, guys, I hope you found this episode helpful. We do these Biz Bomb episodes every other Wednesday and it rotates between myself and Christine, so I really hope you enjoy it. If you liked it, please do leave us a five-star review on iTunes or Spotify or wherever, Stitcher, wherever. Because it really helps us know that you like the content we're giving and that we know to create more just like it. The other thing you can do, if you want me to review your Instagram bio, just take a screenshot of your bio, put it to your Stories, tag 360 Help Biz Podcast, and we'll go through and we'll actually review your bio and give you some feedback. Okay? I would love to help you. I hope you enjoyed this episode guys, and we'll see you next Wednesday.
Did that title get your attention? The rate at which Lyme has grown is exponential and every year it seems to be getting worse with no signs of slowing down. So what is causing this increase? The World Health Organization came out with a paper suggesting that climate change is one of the driving forces behind this due to warmer winters where the ticks aren't being killed off, so they are able to repopulate. YEAR ROUND. This, along with many other factors is causing an influx of Lyme. There is approximately 300,000 new cases of Lyme disease in the US and about 65,000 new cases in Europe. And those are REPORTED cases (remember Lyme is often misdiagnosed) so we are not seeing these numbers slowing down.
In this episode, we talk with Dr. Darin Ingels about the environmental factors playing a part in the increase of Lyme disease, plus treatments for Lyme, how to PROPERLY get tested for Lyme disease, and the two very unique indicators that one might have Lyme disease.
Darin got interested in Lyme when he developed symptoms of high fever, joint pain, migraines, numbness/tingling in 2002, just 3 weeks before opening his own practice. When he saw the bullseye rash on his leg, he knew that it could only be one thing – Lyme disease (hint: the bullseye rash is one of the two indicators of Lyme).
There is a long list of symptoms when it comes to Lyme which is why it’s called the great imitator. It looks like a lot of other things and is why it gets misdiagnosed frequently. It's just very easy to confuse it with something else. Some of the symptoms may include (but not limited to): joint pain, persistent headaches, unexplained fever, chills, swollen lymph nodes, persistent fatigue, numbness and tingling in your extremities, numbness or tingling on your skin, Bell's palsy (drooping of one side of your face), memory problems, coordination issues, balance problems, and/or behavior issues.
But there are two indicators that Dr. Ingels explained are unique to Lyme disease. The bullseye rash and migrating join pain. That means one day you could have pain in your left shoulder and the next day you have pain in your right knee. When you start to see this it’s best to test for Lyme. Oh and what makes Lyme even more fun is that only 35% of those with Lyme actually get the bullseye rash! We hope you sensed our sarcasm when we said it was fun…Lyme really seems to be a pain in everyone’s ass, or should we say in our joints..with the pain migrating constantly.
Tune in to hear Dr. Ingels discuss his struggles and successes with Lyme treatment, recommendations on labs to get properly tested and which diet is the BEST to follow for symptom improvements.
Dr. Ingels is a respected leader in natural medicine with more than 28 years experience in the healthcare field. He is Board certified in Integrated Pediatrics and a Fellow of the American Academy of Environmental Medicine. Dr. Ingels has been published extensively and is the author of “The Lyme Solution: A 5-Part Plan to Fight the Inflammatory Autoimmune Response and Beat Lyme Disease”, a comprehensive natural approach to treating Lyme disease. He specializes in Lyme disease, autism and chronic immune dysfunction. He uses diet, nutrients, herbs, homeopathy and immunotherapy to help his patients achieve better health.
Connect with Dr. Darin Ingels:
Tools discussed in this episode:
Medical Diagnostics Lab
Gen X Laboratories
International Lyme and Associated Disease Society
Fisher Wallace device
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Christine: Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the 360 health biz podcasts. And today you have the beautiful and wonderful co-host is with the most is Kendra Perry and humble me, Christine Hansen, and we have a wonderful guest today, Dr. Darin Ingels. We're going to talk about Lyme. So we are super excited, lime not you know, the beautiful green fruit that you put into your Mojito but a disease, we're a little bit, I'm already feeling the summer over here so. But I'm super excited because we talk about this all the time, and we would like to know a lot more about it. So we think this is going to be a great episode for you guys out there too, and if you like our episodes, if you love it, then do the same thing as this wonderful, and express and Kendra is going to talk about because she left us a wonderful review.
Kendra: Yeah. So we have a five-star review from TM Narin, and I know who you are, and I really appreciate it. And the title of her review says, "I'm learning, and laughing." And then she says, "Great podcasts. I'm gearing up to start my online business, and I'm so happy to hear the tips from Kendra and Christine. What a great vibe. Love your energy ladies." I think that's kind of like our tagline, learning and laughing because that was pretty much of what we talk about. Good content, but we make a lot of stupid jokes along the way. We kind of like to take life too seriously. Right? That's how we roll, so that's pretty exciting.
Christine: All right. And so let me introduce it a little bit more to our wonderful guests. And if you want to know what we all look like, then don't forget to go to our website 360 health biz podcast.com and you can check out each episode and it has our video on that too.
Christine: So, and especially today, we're all pretty today for once. There's a couple of that I don't want you to look at, but this one you can. Let me introduce you to the beautiful, Dr. Ingles. So, Dr. Ingles is a respected leader in natural medicine with more than 26 years of experience in the healthcare field. He's a board certified in integrative for pediatrics and fellow of the American and the Academy of Environmental Medicine. Dr. Ingles has been published extensively and is the author of the Lyme solution a five-part plan to fight the inflammatory autoimmune response and beat Lyme disease. And I know for a fact that this has been published Internationally, so I still need to read it, but I'm super excited and I have it, I bought it. It's a comprehensive natural approach to treat Lyme disease and who doesn't want that. He specializes in the disease, autism and chronic immune dysfunction. And he uses diet, nutrients, herbs, homeopathy, and immunotherapy to help his patients achieve better health. So it's totally down our alley. So welcome. Do I have to say, Dr. Ingle? So can I call you Darren?
Dr, Darren: Darren will be fine. That's what my mother calls me.
Christine: Okay good. perfect.
Kendra: Welcome to the show. Darren, we're so excited to have you.
Dr, Darren: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Christine: All right. So we know that you started your career, and your story would just be chatted about it just before. Is that you got interested in Lyme kind of because you had to, right?
Dr, Darren: Yeah. I developed Lyme disease back in 2002 when I was living in Connecticut. Ironically it was about three weeks before I was set to open my own practice. So as I was getting geared up, getting all the furniture and the fixtures, and everything in order, I started getting very sick. I had a very high fever and joint pain. I felt like my back was broken, a migraine headache, the worst I've ever had in my life. Numbness, tingling, the whole gamut of symptoms. And I had meningitis when I was in college. I thought I had meningitis again. And as I was getting ready to go to the hospital, someone had noticed I had a big bullseye rash on the back of my leg. And I said, oh, okay, well now I know what it is. So I underwent treatment. And after a few days, I have actually felt fine. But since I was opening my own business, I was doing everything, very long hours.
Dr, Darren: And after about eight months of keeping up with that schedule, I started to relapse, started getting joint pains again and started getting the [00:22:24]Thyropathy. So I said, I did this before and it was fine. So I went back on treatment, which at the time was Doxycyline, and it didn't help. And then I changed the antibiotics, and it didn't help. And I went through nine months of changing antibiotic protocols and actually got a lot worse. So I lost 30 pounds. My Gut was a mess and I just really wasn't feeling well. So I was fortunate that I found a doctor in New York City, his name is doctor Jiang, he's a Chinese medical doctor and herbalists, and he started treating me with Chinese herbs.
Dr, Darren: And really after about three weeks of following that protocol, I was 80 85% improved. So it was kind of my reminder that I need to go back to my nature pathic roots, and really start taking better care of myself, eat better. I followed his protocol for quite a long time, and it took about two years after that time to feel like I got my health back, but eventually got to the point where I was living symptom-free. So I just really started applying what I was doing to myself, to my patients and sound that they were improving faster than what I'd been doing before.
Christine: Kendra you were going to say something, I think.
Kendra: Yeah, I was just going to say, it's interesting because all the people that I've talked to who have Lyme like, yeah, they go the antibiotic route. And I feel like a lot of them aren't aware that there might be a different way. And so what you're saying is that you went 100% natural after you kind of gave up on antibiotics and that was able to actually get rid of the Lyme infection. Correct.
Dr, Darren: Right. And now having done this for 20 years, I've seen so many people who've gone down that path, and for people who've gone down that path. If it's worked for you, great. What I'm saying is the people who've tried that path and it hasn't worked and they ended up worse for the wear. So I just want people to know that there are other options and for people who've studied herbs, you now know how powerful they can be. But in my world now, Lyme treatment is so much more than just about killing the bug.
Dr, Darren: It's really a comprehensive approach to the person, and the way I think of Lyme is that it really just becomes a catalyst for all these other things that happen in the body so it can disrupt your immune system, it can disrupt your endocrine system. And we start seeing thyroid problems, adrenal problems, reproductive hormone problems, all these other types of immune issues. So it's not really just about killing the bug, that's now actually a very small part of the treatment. It's really about addressing all these other factors that get disrupted when you get exposed to Lyme. So when I wrote my book, it was a sort of a top to bottom. How do we go through everything and trying to get the body and better working order? It's really ultimately about fixing the terrain.
Christine: So let me just ask you a question to get back to basics. So Lyme, I knew that there was Lyme disease, right? Also because I see it in my clients, or my clients come to me and they told me that they've been diagnosed, but that they are cured. And I use air quotes here because they did the antibiotic regimen. So Lyme, what I knew about it is just the tick is the first thought that I have, being bitten by a tick and getting Lyme. Right. I thought. Okay, so the tick bites you, and it's something in there that is then infecting you. So it's not a virus, it's a bug. I didn't even know that.
Dr, Darren: Yeah. So Lyme is actually a bacteria, it's called Borrelia. And there is the first strain that we identified back in the 1980s, early eighties it was called Borrelia Burgdorferi. We have now learned that they're about a hundred strains in the North American, about 300 strains worldwide of Borrelia. We don't even know how many of those strains actually can cause Lyme disease. Our best guesses that there's probably somewhere between 10 and 12 that seem to do most of the damage. And what's interesting is that if you go to different parts of the world, the strain of Borrelia that's more dominant is different. So the strains we see here in North America are different than the strains we see in Europe, which are different than the strains they see in Africa and so forth.
Dr, Darren: So there are different variations of Borrelia around the world. This speaks a little bit to why testing becomes so problematic because the testing out there really is only looking for Borrelia Burgdorferi. So unless you start ordering tests for these other strains of Borrelia, and again, we don't even have testing for really all of them. It's very easy that if you happen to get a different strain of Borrelia that it doesn't show up on the test, your test looks negative and the doctor dismisses you and says, "Oh yeah, you don't have Lyme disease." Well, it's possible that your test is negative only because you've got a different strain of Borrelia.
Kendra: Wow, that's so interesting. So how common is Lyme disease? And I'm guessing it's probably hard to know for certain if a lot of people are getting misdiagnosed, but I feel like how I perceive Lyme is something that's very rare. It doesn't happen very much. But is it may be more prevalent than I think it is.
Dr, Darren: Well, I think it certainly depends on where you live in the world. When I was living in Connecticut and the Northeast part of the United States, the central Midwest part of the United States are endemic for Lyme. We know that's where the bulk of the cases come from, but it's now been reported in all 50 states in the United States. We now have about 300,000 new cases of Lyme disease in the US and about 65,000 new cases in Europe. That's what's reported. We know it's unreported, so I don't know that we really have a true idea about how many people actually get it every year. But I mean in reality, we are talking about millions and millions of people worldwide living with Lyme disease. And we do know from the World Health Organization that that number keeps increasing.
Dr, Darren: So the rate at which Lyme has grown is really been somewhat exponential and every year it gets worse, and really no signs of slowing down. I think the World Health Organization came out with a paper suggesting that climate change really is one of the driving forces because no ticks aren't being killed off, there. so they are able to repopulate. When I was living in Connecticut, we kind of dependent on our cold winters to kill off the ticks. Well, we've had pretty warm winters and the ticks don't go away, and there's even a couple of studies that show that the techs can get under the leaves and survive the snow. So-
Christine: It's so creepy.
Dr, Darren: A lot of the natural predators for ticks like possums, that population is dwindling. So the things that would normally get rid of ticks aren't getting rid of ticks and the tick population is able to expand. And then we've got some other research showing that birds are carrying those ticks from one region to another. So I think that's why we see over the last couple of decades, it used to be sort of that Northeast corner of the US, well now it's down the entire Eastern Seaboard. It's on the West coast, and we just see it pushing inward. So it's just one of those things where we're seeing more and more cases. But again, I don't think we have a really good handle on how many people are living with Lyme. But it's a lot.
Kendra: Yeah. We had Dr. Evan Hirsch, I'm the show a couple of weeks ago, and you know him oversees of course as well as a part of the mindset community that I talked about before and he said it's tricky because a lot of people are misdiagnosed. So because the symptoms are so tricky, sometimes they are often misdiagnosed as being having arthritis, or any joint pains, or anything like that. So can you talk a little bit more about that because I think it might be interesting that, if you see a client, or a patient and you kind of see their symptoms, but you also know that it's not necessarily what you would think at first sight, and why that might actually be Lyme because there're some particularities to it that way.
Dr, Darren: Yeah. Well, we call Lyme the great imitator or the great mimic. It looks like a lot of other things and again I think this is part of why it gets misdiagnosed quite frequently. It's just very easy to confuse it with something else, there're two things that are very characteristic to Lyme that is really unique, and we don't think of any other condition. One is the bullseye rash. There is no other condition that we know of the causes that Bullseye rash, there's a lot of other skin rashes of course, and you can have other Lyme rashes that's not a bullseye rash, but when you see that target lesion or bull's eye rash, that's a pretty telltale sign again. We've not identified anything else that mimics that.
Dr, Darren: So the bullseye rash is one. The other thing that's very unique to Lyme is what we call migratory joint pain. So one day it's my right shoulder, the next day it's my left knee, and then it's my right ankle and then it's my left elbow. When you start to see the joint pain that seems to kind of migrate throughout your body. Again, there's no other condition that we know of that causes that. There's a lot of other conditions that cause inflammatory arthritis but not that migratory nature. So those two signs, when I hear about that from someone that's a big red flag that Lyme is probable, beyond that the symptoms can be often quite vague. But we talked about joint pain, persistent headaches, fever that's unexplained, chills, swollen lymph nodes, persistent fatigue, numbness and tingling in your extremities, or anywhere in your skin. You can get Bell's palsy, which is kind of drooping of one side of your face. Again, memory problems, coordination issues, balance problems, behavior issues.
Dr, Darren: We see that a lot in children. People will start getting what I kind of called newly acquired dyslexia. Where they start transposing letters and numbers. People complain their handwriting gets worse. I will see sleep problems its taken a lot of endocrine problems. People all of a sudden become hyperthyroid for no reason. So it's a pretty wide range of symptoms. I think for me when I hear about things that are neurological and arthritic, that combination together for me again is a red flag that I investigate, and at least do the testing to see if Lyme is part of the problem. Because again, I think there are very few things that cause neurological problems and arthritic problems. Lyme and other infectious agents have the capacity to do that. But Lyme certainly at the top of that list.
Kendra: Let me ask you this. Do you get Lyme will you always see that bull's eye or does sometimes-
Christine: That was my question.
Kendra: We're sharing a brain, Christine,
Dr, Darren: I know it's really interesting actually. If you read the CDC website, they say something like 70 to 80% of people who get infected get that bullseye rash. But the research does not corroborate that at all. And the actual incidence of getting that rash is probably somewhere around 30%. There is a lot of variation in the research I've read anywhere from 20 to 40%. So we'll say 30% is an average. So realistically, less than half the people who get infected get that rash. So again, for people who get that rash, that's a pretty reliable marker. They'd been exposed. But the absence of the rash certainly doesn't exclude the possibility of Lyme. And I think that's the bulk of the cases that I see, is people have no recollection of a tick bite, no recollection of a bullseye rash, but they all of a sudden start developing all these mysterious symptoms, and they've had a thousand tests and everything keeps coming back normal again. That's my red flag that we should investigate Lyme or some other type of tickborne illness.
Christine: And there are other things that can come with the Lyme other than the Borrelia. Right? There's like the co-infections.
Dr, Darren: Yeah. There's a lot we call co-infections and I swear every time I go to a Lyme conference, that list gets longer. So we know like a lot of the ticks up the wing when they found that something like 33 to 37% of those ticks carries something else other than Lyme. So things like Bartonellemia, which is a bacteria, Babesia which is a parasite, Anaplasma, which is a bacteria, rocky mountain spotted fever or Ehrlicia. One of the latest ones is called plasmids virus. It's actually a virus. Obviously, it can be very deadly, caused a few deaths over the last few years between New York, Massachusetts.
Dr, Darren: So it's very challenging when you've got a patient who has these collections symptoms. I would say, well, what do you test for? And we try and do as comprehensive testing as possible. Fortunately, we do have labs out there that provide that, but you really kind of have to take a good detailed history, really know what's going on with the patient, where their exposure has been, where they've been traveling to. That might help narrow down what you need to look at. But in reality, when I test people, I'm not just testing for Lyme. We're going through the gamut of a lot of the common co-infections as well.
Christine: Okay. So talk a little bit more about that because that's where Kendra and my eyes are lightening up writing the tests. So give specifics where exactly, which labs do you prefer because I'm thinking we talked about this before like we love some book, we don't even test for it, the doctors just send them straight to Germany because there are more specialized facilities there. But is there like a way where I'd say, I have a client coming to me, and they say I've been tested but it was negative, which I'm sure it pretty much was it, I'm pretty sure some of my clients still had that. What do I do? Like, do I have to tell them to ask the doctor to send me a prescription with exactly the strains. Is there an International lab where could send it to? Is there one in the states where I could see to find something? How do you do it? How do you test in?
Dr, Darren: Yeah. So, again, depending on where you live, sort of dictates for me which labs might be best because not all labs are available in all areas of the world. So for those of us living in the United States, I use a lab called Medical Diagnostic Labs in New Jersey. I like them because they offer Lyme testing and co-infection testing, but for here they bill insurance so for people it's nice that their insurance actually pays for something. So I like them. Also If you ever have a tick on you, you can take the tick and you can send it to them, and they'll take the tick, so you can find out if the tick can cure Lyme or any of those co-infections. Gen X is another great lab in Palo Alto, California.
Dr, Darren: They offer the gamut of Lyme and co-infection testing. They're a great lab, they just don't bill insurance outside of Medicare, which is our national insurance. If you lived across the pond, in your neck of the woods. Armin lab is a great lab, I know a lot of people in Germany use Armin. So Armin labs is a little bit different because all the other labs out there are doing antibody testing. [in audible]Our testing. So PCRs looking for fragments of the DNA of the organism. Armin lab is actually looking at a cytokine response. So it's actually looking at a different part of the immune system. So one of the advantages of that lab is that if someone has any kind of immune issue or immune deficiency where maybe they don't have a good antibody response, the Armin labs isn't looking at antibodies.
Dr, Darren: It's looking at cytokines. So you can still have an appropriate cytokine response and not an antibody response might still pick it up. And I've had some patients that have done testing through some of the labs here in the US. Their previous lab was negative. Now they do Armin and they're able to identify some of these things. So Lyme is a clinical diagnosis. I think it's really important. People understand that the piece of paper just there to kind of help validate our suspicion. But we treat people, we don't treat pieces of paper. So if all these tests come back negative and we've ruled everything else out and people have the symptoms of Lyme, I would still treat them. I think every practitioner finds the labs that they like to work with you. That's what works for you.
Dr, Darren: I mean I think they all offer good testing because if you look at the sensitivity and specificity of these labs versus just the run of the mill reference lab, it's much better. But I think between, MDL, Gen X, Armin, those are the three I probably use the most. Again, there are other labs out there that offer testing, so find what works for you. But what I would suggest is that don't just rely on your regular reference lab for their test kits just don't seem to have the sensitivity that we want or specificity to give you reliable results. And I've had plenty of patients over the years that went to quest, and a lab corp and got a test done. It was completely negative. We ran it through a lab that specializes in Lyme and now it lights up like a Christmas tree. So there is some validity in using a lab that does better testing.
Kendra: Are you familiar with the vibrant wellness tickborne panel? I've had a few people kind of pointed me in that direction.
Dr, Darren: Yeah, it's pretty new. They've only been really in that profile I think for a handful of months, in fact, I just got a work report yesterday on that patient. On paper, it seems to be fine. I don't know what technology they're using, what test kits they use. I haven't investigated it yet, on paper it seemed to look fine. I was a microbiologist before I was a doctor, actually used to do Lyme testing for a living. So it's changed a lot since I was in the lab 30 years ago. But I do have a pretty good sense of lab testing, and how things are validated. Some of the tests I'm a little bit concerned about is some of the DNA technology. There's a couple of labs out there that do purely DNA.
Dr, Darren: I think there are some inherent problems with that, where there's at least a couple of labs that I'm not sure that they go through the process of validating their primers. So with DNA technology, the way it's done is that you've got a thing called the primer. What a primer does is it tags, a certain part of the genetic sequence that says this is Lyme or this is Babesia. This is whatever you're looking for. Well if you can imagine there's a lot of overlapping genetic code in microbes. So whatever you've tagged is actually specific to that organism. So there's a whole process you have to go through to validate that primer.
Dr, Darren: And if you use unvalidated primers, it's very possible that you think you're finding Lyme, but you could actually finding something else. So if the lab doesn't really spend the time and money and use validated primers, your results would be speculative. So I'm a little hesitant to use some of the labs that use. Pure DNA technology just for that reason. And I've seen some reports come back where they come back testing positive for everything. They have Lyme, and Bartonella, and Babesia, and are looking at Anaplasma. Well, just realistically I think it's highly likely [inaudible 00:21:33] carry all of that.
Dr, Darren: I mean it's not impossible, but it seems unlikely. So yeah. I think I'd rather stick with some of the labs that don't necessarily do only that. That's something you could use in conjunction with some of the other things, but looking at the immune response tells us a little bit about activity, tells us a little bit about how your immune system is responding. So again, at the end of the day, Lyme is ultimately a clinical diagnosis. You have to use your best clinical judgment. But I think we all feel better when we've got something on paper that helps support our treatment because of course, we don't want to put people through unnecessary treatment either.
Christine: Totally. That would be my next question actually. So obviously if you want to read about the whole treatment people have to buy a book, that is obviously the first thing. But if we would just to condense it a little bit and say, okay, through my journey I've learned that this and this, this may be is really key, and it's something that has been really helpful to my clients. So let's even say if I have someone here in Europe and I think I have a suspicion and I'm just like, okay I want to put a part of the protocol, I really want to focus in the Lyme as well because I think that is a reason why you're feeling the way you do. Because I mean Kendra and I, we both have our niches but in the end, very often the way that our clients feel doesn't have to do with our niche actually.
Kendra: Yeah, totally.
Christine: It doesn't have anything to do with our niche, it's just a side effect of the underlying cause. Right. So what would be a couple of things that you'd say to practitioners, if the suspected, even if you cannot test for it at this moment, here is one or two things that you can try with your clients and see if it makes a difference? And if it does, that might be a very well indicate that you should dig deeper into Lyme.
Dr, Darren: Well, I think initially you got to go very basic. And the first thing I always look at with my patients is the gut. The gut is so critically important for your overall health, and since up to 80% of your immune function that comes from the gut, if that's not functioning well, everything else you do, it's going to be harder to get the results you want. So I think just very fundamentally, go back, make sure everything in the gut is working the way it's supposed to. Are people digesting their food, assimilating their food. Is there any element of gut inflammation? So I think you can start with that foundational stuff. And of course, there's a lot of nutrients to help support gut repair is that whether you're using probiotics are glutamine or digestive enzymes or butyrate. It's kind of whatever your patient needs to take that. So I think between focusing on the gut and diet. Diet is enormous and I can't sort of understate how important that is for patients because I've seen plenty of people who take antibiotics, or if they're doing something very proactive to treat the infection, but they're not making a lot of progress, and we kind of go back through their diet and their gut and it's like, well their gut is mess. They're eating like crap. And you're not really that surprised since you're not getting better.
Dr, Darren: So I talk a lot in my book about specifically an alkaline diet and an alkaline diet for people who aren't familiar. It's just eating foods that support your tissue, being really in a more alkaline state except for your skin, your stomach, your bladder. And for women, the vaginal area, which is very acidic to protect against outside invaders, the rest of your tissues, pretty alkaline. So when you eat foods that really break down into a more alkaline state that allows those cells to function the way they're supposed to. So all the enzymes work the way they're supposed to. And surprising when I was writing the book, I was doing all this research looking on an alkaline diet. And of course, I've known about it forever. And there are books that have been written for decades. But surprisingly, I only found three studies on an alkaline diet. It's not something actually been very well researched at all. Apparently-
Christine: Yeah, I say that all the time.
Dr, Darren: I was really surprised. Now, however, the three studies that were done were all very positive and they found it helps facilitate tissue repair, nerve repair, bone growth. So there's a lot of positive things that happen by following an alkaline diet and having tried different diets with my Lyme patients over the years. I mean we've tried, you know, Autoimmune Paleo, and we've tried Keto and we've tried Candida Diet and so forth. I found that this diet is the most sustainable and easy to follow, people will actually stick with this.
Dr, Darren: And I think if we kind of go back to our true Paleo forefathers, this is the way they truly ate, we mostly a plant-based diet. We killed when we could, we did eat animal protein but it wasn't the bulk of our diet and of course, we didn't eat junk food, and we didn't eat anything that was sort of came in farming much later. So we really try and stay away from foods that are very acid forming in the body. So that's dairy products, that's junk food, that's coffee, things of that nature. So the coffee is the one that kills everybody because they love coffee and-
Christine: Tell me about it.
Dr, Darren: I can speak tone it-
Kendra: Get right down right before this call.
Dr, Darren: No, when I was in the throes of Lyme, I was a regular coffee drinker and I found I would drink coffee my neuropathy would flare up, and if it got worse I would stop. It would get better. I started again and we get worse. I mean, so I tried it a few times and it was pretty consistent. Even just a couple of steps was enough that would flare me. So this concept that, well it's only a little bit, well it depends on your sensitivity level and I think a little for some people is too much. So I tell people when they start this just tell the line. I know it kind of sucks, but follow the program and if you can stick with it you're going to get the best results out of it. And now realistically over time as people improve, they can be a bit more flexible with the Diet. But when you're initially starting it, it's better just to kind of stick to the program in that way that you're going to get the most benefit from it. So I think if people really start focusing on diet gut first, then you can start moving into more therapies that get into actually treating an active infection. And again, I'm a big proponent of using herbs. I mean, I've probably written one antibiotic prescription in a decade. I just don't find the need for it.
Dr, Darren: I think herbs are extremely powerful if you know how to use them in the right way. And fortunately there's a lot of companies out there that make really great herbal products, so you don't have to put everything together on your own. And if you're trained in herbs, you can use companies that put these formulas together that really are effective at treating Lyme. All these co-infections, unlike when you use antibiotics, you have to know what your treating because the protocol for Lyme might be different from Bartonella, which might be different than but Babesia and so forth. The beauty of the herbs is that a lot of the herbs kind of cover all of it. So you have to make a very little variation with all of the co-infections.
Dr, Darren: There are some cases where we know these herbs a little bit more effective against Babesia, this one's maybe a little bit better against Bartonella. But by and large, I was at a conference with Dr. Lee Cowden and he's got a whole protocol and the heat developed with neutral medics. And he kept talking about a lot of these herbs being keep herbs, k e e p, keep herbs. Keeper herbs and I finally asked him, I said, I don't really need to keep herbs. because well it kills everything except people. I'm like, okay. I guess that makes sense. So a lot of these herbs they're good against bacteria and viruses and fungi and parasites. So again, we're covering kind of a pretty broad base, but what I like about the herbs too is that we don't see the same level of gut disruption that you get with antibiotics.
Christine: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I feel bad for Lyme people because some of the people I've spoken to, they've spent a year on like all these antibiotics and you're just like, oh my God. Like, you're sure, maybe you can get rid of the Lyme, but like what is done to your system? Like you're going to have to now recover from antibiotic use. Right?
Dr, Darren: Well exactly. And I think when I was doing some of the research and my professional experience, people need to understand that when you're on antibiotics, of course, you're compromising your normal microbiome. And we always think of the gut. But remember your microbiome is more than your gut microbiome. You've got the skin microbiome, bladder microbiome. Yeah, we've got a microbiome everywhere now. So it's disrupting that whole ecology of your system. We also know that a lot of antibiotics damage your mitochondria most of the time patients I work with are tired. Well, it's going to be really hard getting your energy back if your mitochondrial damaged, that's the powerhouse of the cell is literally what creates energy.
Dr, Darren: So between wiping out your microbiome, disrupting your mitochondria. We have to look at the risk-benefit ratio. And I think here are the risk really outweigh the benefits. And when you look at the research, there's a lot of studies that show that when you've got chronic Lyme anyway, antibiotics just really aren't that effective. You might get a little bit of benefit, and I've seen this clinically, the people they're on antibiotics are feeling a little bit better the minute they come off antibiotics within days to weeks, they're back to square one. So you really haven't accomplished anything long term or there's just no benefit at all. I mean, I'll give you an example. I have one patient, I was working with a who had been working with another practitioner who's very well known in the Lyme world and uses a lot of antibiotics. She had been on antibiotics for 12 years continuously.
Kendra: Oh my God, how do you survive-
Dr, Darren: Has been hospitalized three times because of the antibiotics-[crosstalk 00:30:34].
Kendra: My body was a rack like, I couldn't tolerate them. I had an allergic reaction and then going into shock. So now we're going to use that again. But it destroyed my gut. Like I wasn't already just say no.
Dr, Darren: Considering the diversity of your gut in particular even if you take probiotics, it's not possible to repopulate everything that comprises your gut. It's a drop in the bucket. So when you look at animal studies, when they give an animal at least a mouse, one dose of antibiotics, it can take up to six months to repopulate the rack gut. So what happens for humans when we're on for weeks and months at a time or longer. This particular person was hospitalized three times because of the antibiotics because they were so toxic. So I hear this from people who've been on antibiotics, and they've done well if that's been your path, great. But again, I'm seeing the people where that hasn't been the case and they've actually not done well on antibiotics.
Dr, Darren: So, that's where I'm kind of coming from. But for people who even have acute Lyme, I've treated with herbs at works perfectly fine. We are able to get people through their acute stages again without causing a lot of damage to the gut or the Mitochondria. So at this point, I'm just not sure where the antibiotics fit in. My one patient that I did right antibiotics for, this particular person had a very longstanding case of Lyme. I actually use the lab called Fry labs. So Fry lab is very interesting. Stephen Fry is the medical director, he started doing a lot of microscopy and then what they do is take your blood, and they look under a microscope. And what's really interesting about it is that he's finding a lot of BioFilm in people's blood who've been diagnosed with Lyme.
Dr, Darren: BioFilm is not Borrelia. What he's finding is yeast, fungi. So it's almost like, the Lyme sets the stage that yeast becomes more problematic, but unless people aren't getting classic Yeast Infections. I mean, they're not getting itchy and for women vaginal yeast infections, oral thrush. They're having other types of problems, so we know that just no yeast can be much more difficult to kill than bacteria. It's a more complex organism and if it's varied in BioFilm, it may be even more challenging. So there is an antibiotic protocol of helping to break down BioFilm, get rid of the yeast. And the antibiotics I prescribed were actually more for the BioFilm. And then we used a Doxycyclin combination with an antifungal and these patients actually been responding very well. Having tried a lot of other natural things for a long time that really didn't provide any benefit. But I think in his case the Lyme was really the lesser part of the problem. It was probably this deep-rooted yeast that never had really been addressed. But that's my one case of antibiotics in a decade so. Fortunately, those people do pretty well with herbs.
Christine: Yeah. And we always say there's a time and place for everything, right? It's not about beating ourselves up if you need it, you need it. So Kendra and I whenever we interview people, we want to learn so much more. Right? So we're like, now I want to become an expert in this. I need to learn everything fast here. It's just to do about like we have to kind of submit. But if we have someone, where we really acutely suspect that they have Lyme, I don't have the energy at a one to read up on everything that has to do with Lyme. So how do you refer out? So would we tell them, for example, to connect with you? Is there like a community where we could say, check out this website and you will find a practitioner that is reputable in helping you with Lyme? How do you work with your patients?
Dr, Darren: Well, again, I have people who call me from all over the world and they're looking for someone local to work with. Certainly here on North America, there's a group called ILADS, the International Lyme and Associated Disease Society. And they do have doctors around the world that have members, so people who are part of this group have gone through more extensive training, online diagnosis, and treatment. Now most of the doctors who go to that training, they do use antibiotics as part of their treatment. There are some of those practitioners that do practice a bit more like me and focus more on natural substances, but at least you'll get something where most doctors tend to dismiss people who have Lyme so they can go to the ILADS website.
Dr, Darren: They don't post the list of doctors on the website, but you can email them and then they'll send you whomever you say, Hey, I live in Toronto or New York, and then they'll say, "No, these are people we know who are in the area." Again, I keep a very short list of just people I personally know whom I think they do a really nice job of treating Lyme, people are always welcome to contact my office and I can at least try and see if I know someone in the area. I do work remotely with people so people are really in an area where they just can't find anyone. Fortunately for the kinds of things we're doing, we can do remotely if it's about giving you guidance on diets and nutrition and herbs, that's done pretty easily through that format.
Christine: That's what I wanted to hear.
Kendra: I have a question for you, so the few clients I've had who've had Lyme and they want to work with me anyways. What I've noticed is that when I put them through a protocol and I do a lot of like gut stuff, I'm really big into mineral testing. They don't respond well like anyone else responds. They seem to be highly reactive. Like every time you try to give them something, they have this like crazy reaction and we just whittled down what they can eat and what they can take in. At some point you're like, I don't know what to do anymore. Why is that?
Dr, Darren: Yeah. There's something about being exposed to Lyme that makes a lot of people very hypersensitive to their world. All of a sudden they do have food allergies, they become sensitive to mold, and pollen, and dust, and chemicals. I can only imagine that we've got some research that when you get exposed to Lyme, it triggers really an autoimmune kind of problem. Well that TH2 pathway, T helper cell 2 that drives autoimmunity is the same pathway that drives allergy. So I think that by sort of up-regulating that part of the immune system, you're sort of accidentally developing all these allergies and sensitivities that you didn't have before. And I've seen that pretty consistently in my population as well. So in that case, again, it's really about going back and being very simple and very basic. You can't go in and throw the kitchen sink at these folks.
Dr, Darren: You have to start very slow with everything. So whether its herbs or any supplement, start small work your way up, you have to establish tolerance first. Once you've established tolerance, then you can start increasing the dose. But for those people, in particular, I love Tri-Salts. It's probably my favorite supplement. It's a combination of sodium, potassium and calcium bicarbonate, and the bicarbonates something we've been using an environmental medicine for 60 years or longer.
Dr, Darren: What we know with bicarbonate is that's an alkalizing agent. So when you alkalize the body, you down-regulate that inflammatory response and allergic response. I mean, I've had kids having asthma attacks that parents can stop it by giving their child Alka Seltzer gold or Tri-Salts every hour. So we know that it has this capacity to do that. So for people who are constantly reacting to their world, this is just an inexpensive, easy way to start help down regulating that response so that they can just tolerate things better. Because you're going to have a hard time, with a lot of therapies if they don't tolerate it. So this is just a really nice way to kind of set the base to get them not so reactive. And then you can start layering in your other things as you feel like they tolerate it.
Kendra: So that was potassium bicarbonate.
Dr, Darren: Well Tri-Salts as a combination of sodium, potassium, and calcium bicarbonate there's actually two companies that make Tri-Salts. One uses sodium, potassium, and calcium. The other one uses sodium, potassium, and magnesium bicarbonates. So it's really for the bicarbonate more than the minerals attached to it. The amount of calcium, magnesium, potassium you get is relatively small. It's really more for the bicarbonate.
Christine: So that basically in effect helps break down the BioFilm and make them less reactive. Is that what you're saying?
Dr, Darren: No, it probably has very little do with the BioFilm. We don't exactly know. It's probably more about alkalizing the body and shifting the way the cell functions. But we've been using this for years and environmental medicine and we just know clinically it helps make people less reactive, reduces inflammation. Like, if someone tells me they went into Yankee candle shop, and they started getting a headache from the scent, I'd say try taking Tri-Salts every hour, and then their headache goes away. So does has seems to have some impact on down regulating that immune response. But beyond that, I mean no one, as far as I know, has ever done any research on it.
Christine: So interesting. I'm like blown away. You have like all these different levers in your head going like, okay, do this and this connection, this connection. So yeah,
Dr, Darren: The cheap way around that too is Arm and Hammer Baking Soda, Baking Soda sodium bicarbonate. We know the potassium by carbonate is more effective than sodium bicarbonate, but in a pinch, most people keep that yellow box in their fridge. So if somebody needed something, and they didn't have access, they can just pull out, take a little bit of that powder out of the box, mixing some water and start drinking. It doesn't taste great, but it does the job.
Christine: And so you could use it like an as needed. If somebody is having some flare up or reaction to something like you could try it every hour as needed, and it would reduce that response.
Kendra: Okay. That's so super cool.
Christine: That's going to be really helpful for some of my people.
Kendra: For sure.
Dr, Darren: Cheap and easy. I'm all for it.
Kendra: I like it. Definitely.
Dr, Darren: Well, people with Lyme they spend so much money on treatments. It's nice to have something that's inexpensive, easy to do, accessible. So this is a kind of a staple in my practice. Most of my patients end up on Tri Salt at some point just as a way of kind of down-regulating that inflammatory response.
Christine: I love it. Definitely.
Kendra: Interesting. All right. What haven't we talked about? We've covered a lot.
Christine: This is really good. My brain is starting to like whop.
Dr, Darren: Well, I think the other thing I would add that's important for people listening to this is, again we're thinking about the person as a whole. We have to really look at lifestyle as well. I think it gets overlooked a lot. And the mind-body connection is horribly important. When people have had any kind of chronic illness, it's very easy to get caught in the mire of not feeling well every day. And I think we spend very little time helping people with their mental aspects of dealing with a chronic illness. So I'm a big advocate for doing a few things to help improve that. One is to make sure that you have a support network there for you. And what ends up happening is that even if you've got family and friends, people say, "Oh how you feeling today Darren?
Dr, Darren: The knee jerk response is great." And deep down you're like, no, actually I feel pretty horrible. And you want to be nice, you want to be polite, you don't really think people want to know the truth. And so it's really hard sometimes when you're not feeling well to be able to share that even with some of your closest friends and family. So it's nice to have kind of an independent third party that can be part of your team, where you can just go and unload and be honest and it's okay. So whether it's a therapist support group you're involved with there's a lot of avenues to do that. But I think it's important that people have that space that they can really unload and be open about everything and not feel like they're burdening other people because again, your mind and bodies are very much connected, and it's just human nature to get caught up in that. So to have that safety net, I think it's very helpful. In addition, I think making sure that we get good sleep.
Dr, Darren: Christine this is right up your alley. The most people see once they get exposed to Lyme, and they may have been great sleepers before, but now they're terrible sleepers, whether it's difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep again with all the research out there on the importance of getting that deep restorative sleep. That's when neurons repair themselves. That's when the rest of your tissue repairs itself. How are you going to heal a damaged brain or a damaged joint, if you never get that deep sleep, and you're just getting under the radar and we know that a lot of the sleep medicines out there kind of get you under the radar but don't necessarily get you deep sleep. We have a lot of natural ways of okay ... We could have a whole another podcast just on sleep, but it's-
Christine: Actually, we've never done that.
Kendra: We should do that. Great idea.
Dr, Darren: Sleep and chronic illness. Then they go hand in hand and not just winding.
Kendra: No need to view absolutely.
Dr, Darren: But if you think about biologically this is where your body repairs itself and the more that you miss of that, the harder it is to feel well. Again, I know for my sleep, I mean I was never a great sleeper before I had Lyme but definitely, after Lyme, I became a much worst sleeper and with the interesting paradox here is that you're bone tired during the day, and you think you would just be exhausted. The night would come and you would just be zonked out, and then you're kind of in this tired wired state. So you've got this adrenal dysfunction, messing with your circadian rhythm, so you're not sleeping well, you're not sleeping deeply, but you're exhausted all day and it just becomes a vicious cycle. So my feeling is whatever you need to do to get good quality sleep.
Dr, Darren: And I think for most Americans anyway, a lot of it's about, put down the iPad make sure that when you're getting ready to go to bed, you're disengaging from all that stimulating activity. So I tell people an hour, and a half to two hours before you actually want to go to bed, no electronics, read a book by the candles, take a bath, do something that's actually going to get your brain in that right state. I've actually started using a thing called the Fisher Wallace device, which is a little machine that you clip to your ears, and it basically sends a wavelength through your brain that helps sort of down-regulated and turns it off. So for some people something like that can be helpful in it, do saying-
Kendra: I want that now I need it.
Christine: I can see like reminds me of the hot Ma thing. What is it that, yeah,
Dr, Darren: Actually, I just got it right here. This is a Fisher Wallace device.
Christine: Nice. And tell me what's it called Fisher?
Dr, Darren: Fisher Wallace. It's brand spanking new. I got my own one right here. Since there is a video podcast, I'll just get a quick show of what it is. This is it. It's really simple. It's just a little box, and it's got some wires on it. Then you can see these pads, but the pads up on your temples, on your ears, there's a couple of locations you can put it, and there are just two or three settings on it and you start off at the first set and see how it goes. And you can work your way up as you feel like you tolerate it, but you do two sessions twice a day. It takes about 15 to 20 minutes each session, but it just gets your body into a sort of a more relaxed state.
Dr, Darren: So for anyone who's got ADD, anxiety, insomnia, it can be very beneficial. And in the United States, this is an FDA medically approved device off and you can get your insurance to pay for it. But if your insurance doesn't pay for it, I think it cost seven or $800. But again, I've used it with a handful of people and they've been responding quite well. So for people who are tired of taking one more pill, this is a really easy thing that people can do to help induce a deeper sleep.
Christine: That's awesome.
Kendra: So what does it feel like, like when you put it on and you switch it on.
Dr, Darren: Yeah, it's a wavelength. It's really below your threshold. So it's not like you feel a buzzing or anything like that. You don't really feel anything. Do you feel the dampness of the sponge on your head? That's pretty much it.
Christine: Okay. And you can relax while you're using it or can you do.
Dr, Darren: Well, you could do other things with it. I mean, once it's attached, you could walk around and do things. I usually tell people just do it when you do kind of meditation while you're doing it.
Christine: Yeah, that makes sense.
Dr, Darren: Just to indulge it there on your phone, playing candy crush or whatever you do and just to sit there quietly put on some nice music, help your brain, help you. So trying to get into a bit of a meditation state probably helps that a little bit better.
Christine: I think I'm going to grab me, I love that.
Kendra: I'm someone who's never been a great sleeper. I go through periods where I sleep like a boss, but other times, I just go through these periods where I don't sleep well. So I've been looking for something like that, so I'm going to check it out.
Dr, Darren: Yeah. Yeah. I said I'm all for it. I think there's a lot of interesting devices out there. There's one called Alpha stem, which is kind of similar to the Fisher Wallace here's a few different devices I've seen at conferences that all kind of accomplish the same thing. But, the Fisher Wallace, I like it just because, again, it's pretty easy to use. There's not a lot of settings you have to navigate. You don't have to be a genius to figure out how to do it. Same thing with the Alpha stem. The office seems pretty easy. That one, you do have little clips that go on your ear lobes and you just literally turn it on. I mean, that's it. There are no settings to it. So there's some, a few easy devices out there that for people, again, if they've tried different supplements, things like Melatonin or five different herbs and if it's not really doing the job. So this may help you.
Christine: I'm over Melatonin. I'm just over it. I have an automatic I roll. It goes-
Kendra: Well, it doesn't work for everyone. That's for sure.
Dr, Darren: Well, people need to understand Melatonin's job is to get you to sleep. It's not going to keep you asleep. And for most of the people I see falling asleep is generally not the bigger problem. The bigger problem is they wake multiple times in the night. So Melatonin is not gonna do much for that anyway. So again, I like something like the Fisher Wallace, just that I think has a better chance of getting to that deeper restorative sleep. And again, that's where all that good tissue repairs going to happen.
Christine: Totally amazing. I'm so grateful that we had you on the podcast because it's been like a such a goldmine of knowledge, and the questions that can run I had and just like such good advice. So thank you so much.
Dr, Darren: That was my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Christine: Kendra, do you have a last minute question?
Kendra: where you're like I just want to know where we can find out more about you. What's the name of your book and how can people connect with you online?
Dr, Darren: Sure. So the book is called the Lyme solution and that's available through Amazon or any major book retailer and they can find me online at Darren Ingles, nd.com. It's d a r i n i n g e l s. N D.com and we'd love for people to sign up for our newsletter. We've got a lot of great information about Lyme disease and other health related things and all of our social media tags are at Darren ingles nd, so you can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and so forth.
Christine: Awesome. I love it and it's so cool that you on social media so much. We do it again.
Dr, Darren: Well, we'll try.
Christine: That's another episode where we're going to talk about that.
Kendra: But social media, we need to talk about it. Yes.
Christine: All right but I think this was a pretty amazing, fantastic episode. If you guys out there thinks so too. And if you learned at least one new thing, which is not difficult in this one, then please head over to iTunes and leave us a five star review telling us how awesome we are, and will appreciate it and read it out loud, of course, for everyone to hear. So I think that's it for the episode today. So make sure that you switch on again in two weeks when we have our brand new spanking episode coming out. And Yeah, hope you have a wonderful day. Bye.
This is the first Biz Bomb episode, where we bring you HUGE business tips and tools that will blow your mind! Today Christine talks about her favorite app tool - Evernote, a great tool to organize your notes. It's great not just for taking notes during conferences, or making your grocery lists but can also be used with your clients during sessions.
You can use Evernote on your laptop, desktop, phone, iPad..basically anything that you typically do your work on. But it's great because you could take notes in Evernote during one of your client sessions from your desktop, and still access them from the Evernote app on your phone or iPad to review later! No more writing memo's on your hand and hope they don't wash off (and don't get us started on the toxins that get into your body when you write on your hand!)
Evernote also organizes your notes for you by looking for similarities in your documents either by documents with similar titles or you can organize yourself by color coding or adding tags to your notes.
In addition to making your own notes through the app, you can also scan other documents and save them to Evernote so they are all in one place! So let's say your client has completed their intake form - you can scan it using the Scannable app, save it to Evernote and then create another document to take your clients notes in! And they are all in the same place and organized.
Tools discussed in this episode:
All right, everyone. And welcome to the Biz Bomb of today. And this is the first time I'm actually doing this, so basically the purpose of this is really to help you with day-to-day tools that I use in my business, just as Kendra does. And, hopefully together, with our brains combined, we will blow yours with our biz knowledge, and just kind of tips and tricks that we use.
So my Biz Bomb tip today is a program that maybe some of you know, maybe some of you don't, or a lot of you know, it's Evernote. I love Evernote. It's just a fantastic little thing. It's an app that you can use on your desktop, that you can use on your phone, on your iPad, and I use it for everything. And the way that it compares to Notes for example is that I describe it as a shoebox, and I'm more of a shoebox kind of person, where you dump everything, you know, you have this shoebox and you know, "This is the shoebox with all my receipts. This is the shoebox with all my invoices. This is the shoebox with my manuals, and so forth," or you just have one big shoebox.
And the reason why I like it is that the search function is phenomenal. I use it all of the time. And you can get as vague and as geeky with it as you want. So I don't tag a lot in it, I literally just do ... you have a to-do thing, a title, I try to make that as descriptive, so I'm telling myself, "Okay, what I'm going to use, what would I search for," I put that in the title, and there you go.
The thing is, it's actually, Evernote is going to look for things that refer to each other, so it's actually going to suggest to you other notes that might be the same topic, which is fantastic. And you can get as geeky with it as you want. So you can tag it, you can create different notebooks, you can color code it, you can also use speech, voice memos. And I just adore it.
So I use Evernote all the time on all my devices, and it's fantastic. I use it, as well as just doing my grocery list, just as if I'm at a conference and I'm taking notes. And also, with the iPad and my Apple Pen, I use it when I have preliminary sessions with clients who come to my office. So we sit down, and I take their first intake where I just talk to them and where they tell me that I think are important, I just jot it down on my iPad in Evernote. So I have a client notebook, and then I have little notebooks, and they're for the different potential clients that I work it. And so I just note down the notes in there. So it's fantastic.
The other thing that goes with it that I highly, highly, highly recommend is the note that scans. So I think it's called Scannable, and you take a picture of a document and you can choose to save it as a PDF or a JPEG, and what it does, it's much more than a picture, it literally scans it. So you have crystal clear lettering, it looks exactly like a document, it's fantastic. And then you can just say, "Save to Evernote," which means that it's accessible on all of your devices. So I've done this so many times that, in a pinch, I just took a document, took the picture with the app, it scanned it, I had it in my Dropbox straight away, because I go to Evernote, then I save it to my Dropbox, and I could sign it. So I merge different apps that I'm going to talk about later in the following episodes. But get that app that goes with it.
So that's my tip for today. I hope you have a wonderful rest of the week, and I'll talk to you soon.
Are you a practitioner that primarily focuses on in-person sessions but looking to take your practice online? Whether you’re looking to move entirely online, or have both a brick and mortar and online business, your online presence is absolutely essential. If your practice is perceived as a brick and mortar, how do you take that perception and make people think of looking for you in an online setting? It’s a tough question for many! The quick answer - create content, bring a lot to the table and bring a different skillset that can scale online. That’s where Dr. Tim Jackson comes in.
Dr. Tim Jackson, DPT received his undergraduate degree in Health science and chemistry from Wake Forest University in 2003. He completed his Doctorate in Physical Therapy (DPT) from the Medical University of SC in 2009.
Realizing that manual therapy and orthopedic care helped only some of his patients, he began studying functional and environmental medicine, as well as digestive health, in an effort to help others achieve wellness. Dr. Tim is educated in nutritional biochemistry, digestive health and its systemic effects, as well as functional endocrinology. He recently completed the Spine portion of the Active Release Technique methodology, a system that addresses musculoskeletal trigger points and helps to expedite the healing process. Currently, Dr. Tim is working on his Functional Diagnostic Nutritionist certification.
Tools discussed in this episode:
Functional Diagnostic Nutrition Course
Grab our Ultimate Health Coaching Tool Kit complete with our top picks for platforms plus our sample contract and intake form: http://360healthbizpodcast.com
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Christine: Hello again and welcome to this new episode of The 360 Health Biz Podcast, and I'm super-excited, it's beautiful weather outside, we're in April, winter is behind us I hope. And with me is my wonderful, beautiful, totally kick-ass, badass Kendra Perry, co-host.
Kendra Perry: Hello.
Christine: The co-hostest with the mostest, and we have a super-exciting guest today, friend of mine, huge, long conversations with about all kinds of things, Dr. Tim Jackson, so I'm very, very excited to talk about how to take your offline practice to online, kind of things that you encounter, so this is especially interesting for those of you who will have a traditional brick and mortar business and who want to evolve into the online space, which we love at this podcast.
Christine: Now, don't forget, as always you will be able to follow on our blog and you will also find us on YouTube, you will find us obviously on Audio, but you can also watch us on our YouTube channel, so that's always fun to do. Then we are super-excited because as you know, each time when you learn something exciting I'll ask you to please, please, please leave us a five star review on iTunes and someone did that, not today actually, we apologize in advance because we kind of didn't followup and forgot to check.
Kendra Perry: Get up.
Kendra Perry: I've been checking but yeah, iTunes doesn't really bring everything into one so they're kind of everywhere so we missed this one. This is actually from a couple of months ago, so Cathy Morris, we love you. We are sorry we have not read your review until now but we really appreciate it. She left us a short and sweet [crosstalk 00:01:39] that says, "These ladies are wonderful, true, heartfelt educators. They really want to help with their heath and plans. I love listening to them. Thank you Cathy for that review that you left two months ago, we really appreciate it. It's warming our heart now.
Christine: We do, we do, we totally do. Thank you so, so much. And if you want to receive as much love from us as we just sent over to Cathy, hope you feel all warm and tingly, then please go and head over to iTunes right now and leave us a review. So hit pause, leave us a review, and we'll be making sure to give you a shout out next episode.
Kendra Perry: Sooner than two months from now.
Christine: It's so typical of us to miss that kind of stuff, you know how it is.
Kendra Perry: We're disorganized gong shows, so-
Christine: No real surprise there, right? Unless you send us money. We will take that gladly, immediately-
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and then it'll be on there in [crosstalk 00:02:30]-
Christine: We have a Patreon page, by the way. Go to our website 360healthbizpodcast.com and you can donate to support our cause. All right, so without further ado, Dr. Tim Jackson, super-excited to have you here. You have a massively impressive biography with all kinds of degrees and all kinds of diplomas and education, so it's basically you just read it and you're like, "Oh my God, your brain must be huge," so in a nutshell, who are you, what do you do?
Dr. Tim Jackson: My doctorate's in physical therapy and rehabilitation, my undergrad is in health science and chemistry. I started out doing orthopedic rehabilitation and sports medicine, and I kind of knew all along that I wanted to incorporate functional medicine aspects into it, just because a lot of times your musculoskeletal pain, if it's not 100% caused by internal issues it's 80% caused by internal issues, so I can adjust your spine and mobilize your elbow, but why are those things inflamed? I figured out that I was pretty good at functional medicine and there weren't many people doing it, I was doing it before there was really a name for it and there were a ton of people doing orthopedics.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so I work with people and I'm working on narrowing down my ideal client avatar, but I have everyone from professional athletes to kids on the autism spectrum. A lot of people will say, "How can those two populations have anything in common?" Mitochondrial dysfunction, gut issues, so there's actually a lot they have in common, and so I work with clients from all over the world as part of my Heal Your Body Program, working in layers versus one-time consults.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I also do practice consulting with traditional medical clinics that are looking to incorporate functional medicine, IV nutrition, functional lab testing, supplementation and nutritional consultation.
Kendra Perry: Man, how do you get it all done? It sounds like a ton of things, wearing tons of hat.
Christine: I'm just exhausted listening to that.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I sleep like a boss, that's how.
Christine: Secret. If you don't, get in touch with me.
Kendra Perry: Shameless plug.
Christine: Totally. All right, so I think it's super-interesting because I'm pretty sure we have ... I find that so many people who work with physical therapy who start to shift into the functional medical corner, and I do think that you just told us that you work with people all over the world. I guess it just is like a change of thinking that you actually do that, because I guess when you start out you do have the typical idea of a brick and mortar business, where people come see you and, as you said, you kind of ... I don't know what you do, you press and prod and I don't know what else you do.
Kendra Perry: Poke.
Christine: In order to get them back into shape, so I can imagine that people will say, "Okay, so how is this dude going to help me with his webcam, you know?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Sure, I mean it's the same sort of principle as osteopathic medicine chiropractic. There are plenty in those professions that don't do manual therapy or hands-on, so I get a lot of emails with people asking, "Oh, can I come to you in person?" You can, it's not really going to change what we do. You still need a local primary care physician who can prescribe medication if needed, and who can you see for emergency issues, and physical exams and things of that nature.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I work more on looking at biochemical and biophysical imbalances and finding those pathways that are congested or block and optimizing them. And so it doesn't really matter where you are, to a certain extent lab testing is different in different parts of the world. But for example, in Canada, good luck getting a Reverse T3 tested, it's not going to happen.
Kendra Perry: I can get it done. I can get it done. I have a great naturopath, but yeah, it's a pain in the ass. They send it away and then you wait forever, and then they always forget it and you're like, "I paid for this. I paid for this. Give it to me." [inaudible 00:07:05]
Dr. Tim Jackson: Exactly. Yeah, I mean a lot of it I've kind of moved since when I started practicing I mean I was definitely more heavily focused on the supplementation. Of course, I still use supplements but I try to give people the best return on their investment, things like far infrared sauna, red light therapy, my molecular hydrogen machine over here. Those are things that are going to continue to work for you month after month without having to purchase a new one.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and so how do you use near infrared and far infrared sauna therapies? I'm so obsessed with light therapy. I've got my Joovv light, I've got my sunlight and sauna, are you using that primarily for detox and mitochondrial function?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, so I have the REDjuvenator, the ... Well, we could talk about that another time, but I wouldn't repurchase it, but it has red and near-fared. I use it for collagen production, [inaudible 00:08:08] 21, and-
Kendra Perry: He looks 21. Get on YouTube and watch the video so you can check him out.
Christine: Yeah, it's actually very true. I might have to get that machine, even if it's not working for you totally, but just does half I'm in, sign me up.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Hey, it's working for me. Have you seen this face?
Christine: Oh yeah.
Kendra Perry: He's glowing.
Christine: He's absolutely. I'm sure he doesn't have the green filter on like we do, you know?
Kendra Perry: We're cheating.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I don't even know how to do that, so no, I don't have that on. But I use the red light therapy mostly for mitochondrial boosting, collagen production is kind of a side benefit, but a lot of the products out there don't have the power output that they should to achieve a therapeutic affect. But it's one of those things that you can incorporate, your whole family can use. You do have to be careful with, and I know we don't want to get too off-topic, but in people who are really toxic even five minutes of stimulating the mitochondria any time you increase cellular energy production you're going to turn on a lot of things that were turned off. And so you just have to be careful of that.
Christine: Do you sometimes have clients ... How do you do this exactly? Do they have to see you are you going to tell a client, "Look, I do recommend that you do this," and then you tell them how to do it? Or how does that work?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, I mean, it's all part of a comprehensive program and I take into their account their budget and they're already doing. Some people who've come to me are already doing red light therapy and a lot of other biohacks. Other times I may recommend two supplements, gluten-free diet and far infrared sauna. Because I could recommend a zillion things, but it's just going to overwhelm them and you have to kind of meet people where they are and let them experience some success and get that momentum going. If you do that, then they'll buy-in, and I've found that if you can do something right off the bat that really makes them feel it, then they'll buy-in to everything else.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Someone told me once, "Give them a little bit of what they want and a lot of what they need." They might come to me for anti-aging but I might look at chronic infection, and they don't necessarily understand the connection but I do.
Christine: Sort of what I do, the niche is sleep but it's never just sleep, it just like one of the symptoms so it's exactly what you're saying, yeah.
Kendra Perry: It's all connected and I think people have a hard time wrapping their head around that because we've been raised in this sort of compartmentalized medical system, and no matter how often or how much I try to explain it to certain people they still don't get it, so you just exactly have to give them what they want, and then they're like, "Oh, this is great. I want to take things to the next level." Right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.
Kendra Perry: And so you've obviously been around for a very long time. You were with functional medicine before it was called functional medicine, probably dates you a little bit to the audience, but what did that transition look like when you were seeing people in clinic, in office when you realized you could utilize the Internet to reach more people around the world?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah. I mean, I had been on the different forums and before Facebook and social media was popular, the health and medical forums were really popular and so I was on those back in the day, but I always realized that there were people locally who would go pay cash to see someone else versus coming to our clinic and using their insurance. So I think the dilemma is people want to transition into the online space but they don't want to up their game. You can't just transition and not have it on advanced skillset or something unique that you bring to the table.
Christine: That's a good point, yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, when you're transitioning or when I was transitioning, I just tried to put out good information and I definitely didn't know anything about SEO or any of that, and it just got shared really. I have medical doctors now that refer to me, other clinicians, acupuncturists, et cetera, but I think even if you're going to have a brick and mortar practice you still need to have a good online presence.
Dr. Tim Jackson: For example, when I lived in Atlanta the owned of the clinic where I worked part-time, he didn't understand that you can't just put up a sign and expect people to show up. I mean, there's a million functional medicine clinics in Atlanta and if someone googles, "Relevant functional medicine terms," you want to be at the very top. And so I think having an online presence is important, whether you're all virtual or you're split or all brick and mortar.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I mean it's a really good point. Nothing drives me more crazy then when I'm trying to find more information about a business or a menu and they don't have a website or a Facebook page that they update, and I'm just like, "How?" I don't understand. How do you not have any sort of online, even if you're a local business, right? People traveling to the area, people ... For me, if it's not convenient, I'm out. Gone.
Christine: Me too. If it takes me more than two seconds to have a nice mobile-friendly page I'm out, and it's so annoying. Because okay, I'm just in the process of getting a kitten so I'm Googling breeders. You wouldn't believe how many of them have like wicks pages from 1995 or something like that. It's not mobile-friendly, you need to zoom into everything and press buttons and things, and I'm just like, "No, no, no, no, no." I would love to actually write them emails and say, "Look, I'm going to do your website for free because this is too frustrating."
Kendra Perry: And your next career is building cat websites.
Christine: Totally, there's a huge market there, I think.
Kendra Perry: I think there is.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, and they're also seeing my friend who is a psychiatrist.
Christine: See? There we go, mixed business. But I find we are all the same kind of age, we're actually all 56, we just look amazing to get because we have saunas and stuff. I think we are actually really lucky because we are belonging to the millennium breed, but we're still a generation ... One of millennium parts we remember the analog world but also the digital, so I think it really helps because if we have people, like the person who unfortunately was inflexible who ran the clinic that you worked at who were just totally analog, they really have a hard time understanding the digital. I think our generation is actually super-lucky because we understand how they think, and yet we grew up figuring all this crap out because it was basic.
Christine: I remember the first chatroom I was in was actually an ISC chatroom where you had to program everything, it was basically like a dot kind of an [inaudible 00:15:30] something. I didn't know it was that at the time, with my 14 years. But we had to figure it all out, so I think that makes us really techy in a way, if you're interested. You also have people of our generations who are not, but at the same time we really do get the analog thinking as well.
Christine: I find that that is really a gift in a way, because we kind of also know what other people are looking for. So some people still just look for signs, but it's translating that into Google as in saying, "Look, you are actually on a street. You Google ranking is the biggest billboard in town, in a way, so if you're listening and you are a couple of generation ahead of us and you just don't dig this digital stuff, really one of my pieces of advice would be just open your mind and you have to then hire someone who does it for you.
Christine: Because I think there is absolutely no way that you can get served the most people possible if you don't have an online presence, even if you're not ready to take your complete business online. But if you do have a business that people perceive as being a brick and mortar business, so for example I perceive someone who does osteopathy physical therapy to be a hands-on business. How do you take that perception for people even to think about looking for that online, because I would never consider it an online business? How do you do that for people to actually understand that they can work with that online?
Christine: You talked a little bit about creating content, so I would be interested to know a little bit about how that opened doors for people worldwide to find you and to actually even get the idea to hire someone in that area of expertise online, versus going and looking for a brick and mortar close by.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, I think, I mean all the content that I've produced has been functional medicine. None of it has been orthopedic related. It's just like with osteopaths or chiropractors who don't adjust or they just do nutritional consultations, et cetera. If someone wants manual therapy or an adjustment, et cetera, of course they need to see someone in person, but I just made sure that everything I talked about was functional medicine related, neuro immune related, gut health, hormones, et cetera and so no one ever really perceived me as this orthopedic manual therapy guy.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, I've just focused on putting out content about mitochondria and all those other topics in functional medicine and red light therapy, and so when you put that out there and hope that people find you, and yeah.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, it seems like if you do do manual therapy of some sort and you want to go online, I guess it depends ... Like you said, you need to bring a lot to the table or you need to have a different skillset. Where I live there's a massage therapy school, and so there's a ton of massage therapists in my town and they're always three years in they're stoked on it, and three years in they're just like, "I can't scale up. I don't know how to scale up my business," because they can only do so many massages, right, in a day or they burn out.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.
Kendra Perry: And so I've been thinking a lot about them and I'm like, "You need some sort of subset of skills that you could bring online, or something that you can teach to bring online or otherwise, yeah, if you just do physical therapy you really can only hit so high and they're you're stuck."
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Yeah, I mean it's just like with chiropractors adjusting people. If that's all you do, I mean it's going to wear on your body a lot and there's reason why you don't see very many old doctors or physiotherapy or doctors of chiropractic, and it is very energy intensive, I mean especially if you want to get good results to do soft tissue release, manipulation, that sort of thing. I mean, I would often break out in a sweat just working on a patient.
Dr. Tim Jackson: And so that kind of stuff if people want a physical examination or a movement examination, I mean I can do that virtually and look at what reflexes are integrated or not and how their movement patterns are, and a lot of times it involves resolving inflammation and other functional medicine root cause stuff.
Christine: Yeah. If you had to do it again would you start out with physical therapy again or would you say, "Hell no, I would just go straight into functional medicine?"
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, I mean that's the thing. People always ask me about going to school for functional medicine and there is no school for functional medicine. I don't care what people say, I'm sure I'll piss a lot of people off but I do that anyways. Naturopaths did not-
Christine: Welcome to the club, dude. [crosstalk 00:20:49]
Dr. Tim Jackson: Naturopaths did not own functional medicine, okay? Let's get that out there. The Institute of Functional Medicine doesn't own functional medicine, and so someone told me, "Just buy a ticket to play the game." I'd probably just get my FDN, honestly. I mean, why go to school for eight years? I mean, you know?
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I think that's maybe the post that we reconnected on Facebook on, it was someone who was posting about the University of Functional Medicine and you said something about, you're like, "Why waste $30 grand when you could just take one of Bryan Walsh's course and learn so much more?" And I think I was like, "Hell, yeah," or something like that and that's kind of where I chimed in. But yeah, it's so true. I see a lot of people spending so much money on traditional education in [inaudible 00:21:34] functional medicine, but in the end, I mean the great thing about ...
Kendra Perry: You mentioned the FDN course. Both me and Christine have done that course and then we love it because it gives us the ability to order the labs and actually get in the game. But a lot of people who've done some of this more expensive functional medicine education, if they're on license they still can't order labs, so what's the point?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, right. Exactly. And, I mean ultimately the stuff that you learn, the most important stuff I've learned has been me kind of piecing together things. Someone might hear me on a podcast or read an article, but they don't necessarily appreciate that it took five years to put all that together, it didn't just show up.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it so true. It's so complex and everyone's like, "Oh, what's your education?" I'm like, "Sure, I've got all these letters beside my name but most of them don't mean anything and haven't contributed at all to my skillset, whatsoever." And a lot of what we do is just working clinically, working with clients, speaking with other practitioners, spending our extra time in the deep dark corners of Club Med and looking at shit, right? People don't get that. You're like, "Can I put hours of looking at shit beside my name?"
Dr. Tim Jackson: Actually I just saw a new ... she calls herself a nutritionist website, and under her credentials she had a list of the articles she had read, and I'm like, "There's not enough bandwidth for the number of articles that I've read."
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah, I probably don't even remember all of them, that's true. That's true.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.
Kendra Perry: I find the little people ... yeah, go ahead.
Dr. Tim Jackson: No, I mean I just think it's silly that people look for certain letters to mean certain things, like they think, "Oh, if you're an optometrist then you can't do functional medicine," or, "If you're a dentist you can't do functional medicine." Why not?
Christine: Yeah, totally. And I find that's the first question I will usually get when I do talks or anything, it's like so people are looking at me, they're like, "So are you a doctor then?" You know? Or they're like that's the first question I always get, "So do you have a medical license?" Or, "Are you a doctor then?" And it's like, "No, but I have doctors sending me a lot of clients because they're just stuck at a certain point and they know that I get results. I work completely differently."
Christine: But it used to bother me, it used to really piss me off, like if you don't have the MD or the doctor in front of your name it's like okay, there's no cred in a way. I think it is shifting because a lot of people just know just through their own experience that there's a lot of boundaries in the traditional MD world and that it's just more for emergency cases. If you are an emergency, obviously it's the best thing that happened to us but, if not, very often everything is fine even though you feel like shit.
Christine: I found that is still something that people need to get used to, that you don't necessarily have to be an MD in order to be great at functional medicine.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, when people ask- Sorry, go ahead.
Kendra Perry: Go ahead. You go.
Dr. Tim Jackson: When people ask me if I'm an MD I say, "No, I'm your doctor's doctor," which in a lot of cases is true. Which in a lot of cases I true. I mean, I have probably five or six MDs now as clients, so that's my response.
Christine: That's [crosstalk 00:25:06].
Kendra Perry: Totally. And I've spent a bunch of time training licensed practitioners, I do a big focus on hair mineral analysis and just ran a course. I had a couple of doctors in there, a couple of naturopaths, a couple of dietitians and then a bunch of health coaches. But yeah, it's like I think that barrier with the letters is breaking down a little bit. I feel like people are caring less and less, but I think it also when you're starting out, when you're unlicensed people feel really maybe inferior or they feel like they need to keep upgrading their education rather than just getting out there, and getting clients and doing the work. Because that's really what makes you a good practitioner. It's not the education or the letters, it's having clinical experience and actually working with the people.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Absolutely. Definitely. Well said.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: Tell us bit about with all the experience that you had working with clients online all over the place, what would be your top three things that you see over and over again? And what are some of the things that were maybe surprising after you started to transition from what you started out of, more in physical therapy to functional medicine? What are the three things that stuck in your head where you were like, "I wouldn't have thought this, but I see this over and over and over again."
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, I shouldn't say this surprised me, but I was always fascinated with the immune system and chronic infections, and even with orthopedic type stuff, people with bilateral knee pain they've found mycoplasma antigen antibody complexes in the synovial fluid in the joint. Yeah, I can mobilize your knee and release the soft tissues that connect into the meniscus, but it's really an inflammatory immune issue, and that really applies to all orthopedic situations. But whether people know it or now, and everyone's worried about getting the flu and an acute infection, when the reality is the stealth chronic infections that hang around and get into the brain, and the nervous system, the heart, the blood vessels, the liver, those are what you should be concerned about because they create a constant inflammatory cascade that's going to manifest differently in everyone.
Dr. Tim Jackson: The three of us may all get infected with the same pathogen, Kendra may have headaches, you may have sleep issues, and I'm just making funny of you to the sleep, and you may have-
Christine: I thought you'd say diarrhea, but it's fine. I prefer the sleep issue.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yes, diarrhea-
Christine: Loose poop.
Dr. Tim Jackson: ... we'll go with that. And I may have an elevated heart rate, so I would say that chronic infections would be number one. That's something that most people are dealing with whether they realize it or not, and we have a world of underperforming people, and a lot of times they kind of chalk it up to, "Oh, I'm just not smart," or, "I'm just not this or that," and-
Christine: Just getting old.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, a lot of being controlled by things that they've just never been taught to look at or look for. I would say the chronic infections, of course the mitochondrial issues. If you can boost the mitochondria everything works better, and then the circadian rhythm and environmental health. I kind of group indoor air quality, I deal a lot with mold toxicity, and that directly drops blood flow to the frontal lobe in the brain in addition to impacting various aspects of your immune system.
Dr. Tim Jackson: The chronic infection, the mitochondria, because when people hear mitochondria they think energy, they think, "Oh, go work out," but they don't realize that everything, like the thoughts that I'm thinking right now, that requires energy production, my heart beating requires energy production, and so everything in your body will suffer when energy production suffers.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I tell people at the end of the day we'll do functional lab testing, but the two best tests are what's your body temperature and what's your sex drive?
Kendra Perry: Very cool.
Dr. Tim Jackson: You know? Because nature never wants to reproduce anything that's weaker, it only wants to reproduce things that are stronger and have more vitality. And so if you have low libido, when people and ... I don't want to call anyone out, but these fertility clinics popping up everywhere when you just bypassed that process, you're asking for trouble.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I totally agree. I see that all the time. I work with women and I see just so many women going through yeah, all the crazy fertility treatments. They haven't been able, they've been trying for 10 years and it's just like they're doing in vitro, they're doing the fertility drugs, and they're just forcing these babies out of the body that doesn't actually want them to have a baby because they're not quite healthy enough. I think that's a big think.
Kendra Perry: I mean, it's a tough topic because women, they really want it, it's a very emotional thing. It's a tough one. It's hard to convince women sometimes, especially when they're older, when they're in their later 30s early 40s and they feel like they're running out of time to just focus on health first and not do the IVF or do the crazy fertility hormones that just make you dump eggs like a motherfucker.
Christine: Yeah, nuts. And nobody asks you-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, I get-
Christine: ... about your energy levels or anything like that. Because I've gone through, not all the way, but the beginning stages of those treatments when we tried to have a second one, thank God we didn't, but nobody asks you these questions, like no one. It's crazy to me but it doesn't matter. It's really about okay, we're still very lucky in Luxembourg because our insurance actually covers everything, our national health insurance, so it's still different but it's still, "Okay, you have this problem, hence we're going to do this process." Nobody talks to you about diet, nobody talks to you about your energy levels, nobody talks to you about anything that might have to do that your natural body is just not up to it, because producing a little human is pretty complex, you know?
Kendra Perry: It's a big fucking deal.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right. Yeah, and to piggyback off what Kendra said, I get a fair number of emails from women who are in their late 30s, early 40s, and they're like, "Dr. Tim, I've got to get pregnant yesterday," and I'm like, "Well, just pump the brakes for a minute and give me six months and I promise you it will pay off a lot in the long-term, verus trying to fix stuff after the fact."
Kendra Perry: Yeah, yeah. And I'm always amazed, I've worked with people who they're so burnt out, they're so exhausted, they have no energy, they don't sleep well, they're literally burnt out on the floor and they're like, "I want to have a baby." I'm like, "That is crazy. How? How are you going to do that and how are you going to raise a child when you're that fucking tired?" It's just [crosstalk 00:32:15]-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, yeah. I agree with you 100%. It's kind of like people that have two kids and they can't parent them well, so let's have a third.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I know. Eww.
Christine: Thank God we're here tooting our horn. No, but it's very true. I mean, there's such a shift in paradigm having this information out, and I think part of it is because we do need to put that information out in order to be found and in order to run our businesses. On the one hand, yes, it's to the good for the people because we want them to learn more. On the other hand, it's just quite for us being in business it's important too, so it's really this two-way street but it's a win-win situation in the end, I reckon.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, absolutely. Yeah, I mean I'm trying to become a jetsetter like you and just fly all over the place and live in luxurious resorts.
Christine: October, Bali people, 2019. Check it out. Self-promo, I'm sorry. I cannot help it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, you're on fire today. You're just like, "I'm going to promote myself all episode long."
Christine: There's so many opportunities. What am I supposed to do?
Kendra Perry: You got to take it. You got to take it where you can get it.
Christine: Yeah. No, but I mean, it's what an online business is in the end. I think you have to give yourself a little bit of a nudge in order to be visible, it's not easy for everyone, and I think you have to do it in the way that suits you. Kendra and I, we obviously love the camera and we're like, "Hi," it's grim stories and all kind of witches talk, but other people are not. I think, for those, it's really a lot better that you create written content, and I think that's what you do mainly too, right?
Dr. Tim Jackson: What kind of content, sorry?
Christine: Written content.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Oh, written. Yeah. I mean, it's not that I don't like the camera. I do a ton of podcasts and summit interviews, I just hadn't gotten my lazy butt around to filming myself yet. Maybe I can talk to you guys off-air about what camera I need. But yeah, I want it to make me even younger and even more muscular, so-
Kendra Perry: We just need to show you how to use the zoom filter. Really, without the zoom filter, it is the morning, I just rolled out of bed, first coffee, I'm haggard, but the zoom filter it cleans me right up.
Christine: [crosstalk 00:34:45]. No, I mean [inaudible 00:34:48].
Dr. Tim Jackson: You look like you're in a studio right now Christine. Are you in some kind of-
Christine: Yeah, I have my studio set up. I was recording. What was I recording? Oh, my introduction to the website. I redid that, so yeah. I've been doing some video, more pro stuff, but it didn't turn out the way I wanted to. I may have to do it again. Yeah, sometimes I ... I love this stuff, I love [inaudible 00:35:10], I love ... I spend shitloads of money on that stuff, but I think it's to each their own, right? But-
Dr. Tim Jackson: I, personally, would rather have an aneurysm than deal with that stuff.
Kendra Perry: See? Oh my God. Really?
Christine: It's not [crosstalk 00:35:26]-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Biochemistry, that doesn't stress me out. Pathophysiology, that doesn't stress me out. You start talking about metatags and H1, H2, and my HPA is just choo, choo, choo.
Kendra Perry: Just gone.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, I have zero patience for that.
Christine: I do have a question though, because you just mentioned that you do lots of summits and lots of podcasts, so let's talk a little bit about that. Do you think this has helped your mastery with your business? Is this ... Because I know it's such a trend and so many people have done it, especially you people listening to this, it's about how can you make your coaching business or health practice more successful. I think you have these huge companies like what are they called? Health Talks Online-
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah.
Christine: ... and all these huge, huge, huge summit and I had my own summit a couple of years ago and you were actually an expert on that, and my list grew hugely, my email list, but I lost pretty much all of those people again, so as soon as I pitched the something. I'm wondering, has it been successful for you?
Dr. Tim Jackson: I think it has. People end up following my work and reading my articles. They may overtime become clients immediately, it may be two years down the road but just to give you an example. I was a coffee shop in Sedona, Arizona, and two separate people who didn't know each other came up and they were like, "Hey, weren't you on the Bulletproof Executive podcast?" And I was like, "Yeah, you watch that?"
Christine: Wow, pretty big deal.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, that's [crosstalk 00:37:03]-
Christine: I've never had that happen to me, there you go.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, that's just because you're a household name already, so ... But yeah, I mean I think it has. I haven't nurtured the opt-in email list because, again, all that stuff just stresses me out.
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I don't have a [crosstalk 00:37:19].
Dr. Tim Jackson: If I can pay someone to turn on my computer I probably would. That's just the reality of it. But the summits, I've never hosted a summit. I've been on, I think, nine or 10 and I think that did help me get a fair number of clients. But, like you said, people want ... in this day and age they're spoiled in terms of content and information. The other day just to give you a quick example, I made a post that was again to you, there's probably 1% of the world that knows this and it was about THC depleting potassium. Someone responded, "Where are your citations?" And I'm thinking, "Okay, yeah. Let me just stop seeing patients and I'll be a librarian and I'll start posting those links. That's what I'll do all day."
Dr. Tim Jackson: It gets kind of ridiculous and there's so much content out there you have to just kind of be consistent with it, I guess, and consistent with your messaging, and get in front of the right people because a lot of the people that I've met that are world famous, they definitely don't know the most they're just really good at marketing.
Christine: Yeah, and I think that's an issue a little bit in our ... As you say, people are very spoiled and it is a bit of an issue because you need to market yourself in order to get ads there but, at the same time, you need to have a quality service so it is tricky, definitely.
Kendra Perry: But I think what you just said, Tim, just kind of summed up how to have a successful online business, you were like be consistent, create consistent content, and I think it was create valuable content. It was something along those lines, I just kind of brain farted on a few of those things. But yeah, I feel like people want ... They're like, "Okay, well what's the strategy? How do I make it? Tell me the sexy stuff," and it's like, "Be consistent," and everyone's like, "Uh, what?" But it's so true. You just need to be consistent. You just need to keep showing up, you need to keep spreading your message, which is actually, I think, the other thing you said there.
Kendra Perry: Keep telling your story, spreading your message, be consistent, provide valuable content and don't give up, really. That's what it comes down to, I think.
Christine: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, and if you have flaunt it. I mean, I know so many that they don't really know very much but they charge a hefty penny. So hey, if you can't beat them, join them. Maybe I'll start doing shirtless podcasts.
Christine: You'd actually have an awesome podcast. If you just recorded what you wrote, all our blog posts and everything you know, it would be an amazing podcast, actually.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Maybe I can fly to Luxembourg and do it in your studio there.
Christine: That would be totally worth it. Kendra, we need to make an episode on how to do podcasts and what kind of [crosstalk 00:40:19].
Kendra Perry: yeah, totally.
Christine: I was just thinking that. I wrote it on my notepad where I wrote, "Hire Jamie Jensen, and do a [crosstalk 00:40:28] podcast."
Kendra Perry: Yeah, well I think podcasts are a great way to get out there. And I mean, me personally, I've said this a lot, but I don't consume video content because I don't have fucking time. When I'm off my computer I'm moving around, I'm getting shit done, I'm out on my bike so I listen to an obscene amount of podcasts in a day, I'm always listening to them. I don't really listen to music, so it's a good way to get in your ideal client's ears while they're in their car or on their run, or whatevs.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.
Christine: Especially if you don't like the camera it's very easy to do.
Kendra Perry: You don't have to do it like we do.
Christine: No, you can literally take your iPhone, if you have Anchor, it's an app and you can literally just hit the record button like you do on a voice memo and it really uploads it straight onto your podcasts clouds, and yet it's available on Spotify and iTunes, and you literally just take your iPhone and you speak into it whatever's in your head. It's super-easy nowadays, yeah.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Got you. I'll have to ask you some stuff off here about that.
Christine: Yeah. All right. What else did we forget? We're super-organized, as you can see.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, in terms of people looking. Now, functional medicine's a buzzword, and it's funny you mentioned doctors of physical therapy, people don't traditionally take them as doing functional medicine, but when I went into my doctorate program it was actually harder to get into than the MD program.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, yeah. It had become very popular, but the same thing happened that happened with attorneys. They opened up a lot of new schools at once and then that diluted the pool, and so that drove salaries down. But I think having a brick and mortar if you want to incorporate functional medicine into it, hire someone to help you with the low hanging fruit, things that you can do immediately, and hire someone ... There are hormone clinics popping up all over the place and you can just do hormones. I mean, you can, but if the gut's messed up or you're extremely toxic they're not good enough to work.
Dr. Tim Jackson: That's how functional medicine kind of gets a bad name, I think, people they just see dollar signs because they know if they name their clinic so-and-so Hormone Clinic, then people are going to come. But if I were to have a brick and mortar and call it ... I would probably call it something Hormone Clinic, but then I would drop all the other stuff on it.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, no it's a good point. I mean, hormones are just so trendy these days, and I mean all the women who I work with are like, "Oh, what about my hormones? What about my hormones?" I'm like, "We've been working on your hormones for a year, just not-"
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right.
Kendra Perry: "We've been working on your gut, your minerals, we've been detoxing metals, we're working on your hormones we're just not giving you hormones and [crosstalk 00:43:26] them specifically, but people don't like that.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Right, but that would require thinking. I read a stat the other day or a few weeks ago, the average IQ is dropping seen points every four to five years.
Kendra Perry: What? Is that a lot? That seems like a lot.
Dr. Tim Jackson: That is a lot.
Christine: That's a huge point.
Dr. Tim Jackson: So in nine to 10 years that's going to be 14 points, that's a lot.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, well I think my IQ is going up seven points every year. I think I'm good.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I think my sexiness factor's going up exponentially.
Christine: [crosstalk 00:44:02].
Kendra Perry: Oh, that's so interesting. And you think that's due just to all the crazy, sick unhealthiness going on these days?
Dr. Tim Jackson: Yeah, I mean I think a lot of it is low thyroid and a lot of it is mitochondrial dysfunction, because the nervous system has the highest concentration of mitochondria, so the first system that goes offline when you have mitochondrial dysfunction is the brain.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. yeah, true. I mean, so many of my clients, yeah, they have brain fog or they just have no memory, no recollection. They just forget everything, they have brain fog, they have mental health issues, it's so common, more common than any other symptom I feel like is brain shit.
Dr. Tim Jackson: That's because you live where it snows year-round.
Kendra Perry: I do. But I love the snow. I love. I love the ... Snow sucks I you don't do anything cool in it. If you just sit around and bitch about winter and you're like, "Oh, winter sucks," then yeah, snow sucks. But if you get out you can do so many cool things in the snow it's insane. You can ski, you can snowboard, you can go sledding, there's so much fun things. Once you get into it, once you find a snow sport, you're in love.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I love snowboarding, but if you go snowboarding anywhere around here it's like falling on cement.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, well you've got to come to British Columbia and ski some real BC powder, that is a game changer, that is orgasmic, my friend.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Well, then I'll have to look that up.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, it's messed up.
Christine: Now you know my michochondria going-
Kendra Perry: Michochondria, good one.
Christine: Oh God, mitochondria, I cannot ... my brain. I think I have just dropped 12%.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Did you just combine German and English and another language?
Christine: It's my brain fog. I had a rough week and people.
Kendra Perry: All right, well, do we have anything else to cover today? We've covered a lot of random topics, which is fun. I like these episodes where we go where things take us, right?
Christine: Exactly, and I think there was super-helpful things there, and I just got a ton of ideas what we can add to our website.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Don't stress me out, my heart rate's going up.
Kendra Perry: Just can't handle the check.
Dr. Tim Jackson: I can't, I can't.
Christine: Oh good, we're such geeky people, I love it.
Kendra Perry: I know, I love the [crosstalk 00:46:23]-
Christine: All right, I think this has been awesome. People out there from our random train of thought episode, which still has been amazing, let us know what was the most interesting, random, surprising, whatever thing. Let us know why you are writing your five star iTunes review, and we will love you forever.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and before you shut down this podcast just take a screenshot, share it to your Instagram stories, tag 360HealthBizPodcast, and we will share it to ours, because we love IG stories. If you love them, then lets do it together.
Christine: Mention us. That's just a little tidbit, like you need to use the mention kind of icon, not just the app symbol but he actual mention because then we can do it. Otherwise, it's more difficult.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, totally, so there you go. All right guys, well thanks so much.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Whatever they just said.
Kendra Perry: He's like, "I don't know, what's Instagram story?"
Dr. Tim Jackson: Heart rate, heart rate.
Kendra Perry: Oh my God.
Dr. Tim Jackson: With social media I have an idea.
Kendra Perry: We're going to have to talk off-air, Tim.
Christine: Yeah, I'm absolutely ... Kendra, I would agree. Tim, we need to talk.
Kendra Perry: Well, thanks so much guys and thank you, Tim, so much for being here with us. This was awesome. It was super-fun to hang out and talk about health and business and all that nerdy shit. We love you guys and, as always, we will be back in two weeks time with another fantastic episode. Bye guys.
Dr. Tim Jackson: Thanks for having me.
Chronic Fatigue is a common issue we see in many of our clients. And how could it not be? As Dr. Evan Hirsch describes it, there are 15 common causes to chronic fatigue, all of which can be categorized into two groups – deficiencies and toxicities. Deficiencies can be hormonal, nutrient, lifestyle and even sleep related. Toxicities include the more well known toxicities like heavy metals and mold but even other toxicities like negative emotions and electro-magnetic fields.
But when working with chronic fatigue, where do you start? And what is the difference between chronic fatigue and chronic fatigue syndrome? In this episode, Dr. Hirsch describes the differences, how he determined protocols for both and solidified the fact that you can REVERSE both chronic fatigue and chronic fatigue syndrome.
On top of that we discuss a big contributor to chronic fatigue…MOLD! Mold is a growing concern (see what we did there?!) for chronic fatigue along with many other health concerns. Did you know that 50% of the buildings in North America have mold? And it’s not just the old historical buildings. New builds are seeing mold growing before home buyers even move in.
Tune in to learn about chronic fatigue – the causes and ways to treat it.
Dr. Evan Hirsch suffered with fatigue for 5 years before he achieved resolution using the Fix Your Fatigue Program that he pioneered in his medical practice. Through his best selling book, free Facebook group, group and 1-on-1 coaching, he has helped thousands of people across the nation optimize their energy and he is on a mission to help 1 million more. He is board certified in family medicine and integrative medicine and when he’s not at the office, you can find him singing musicals, dancing and playing basketball with his family.
Get Dr. Evan Hirsch's FREE download of Fix Your Fatigue here
Connect with Dr. Evan Hirsch:
Facebook Group: fbgroup.fixyourfatigue.org
Grab our Ultimate Health Coaching Tool Kit complete with our top picks for platforms plus our sample contract and intake form: http://360healthbizpodcast.com
Like this episode? Take a screenshot and share it to your Instagram stories and we will share it to ours!
Christine: Hello everyone, and welcome to this new episode of the 360 Health Biz podcast for a new amazing episode and I'm so excited. So with me today are two amazing people, I had a lot of fun with on different occasions, but both times in San Diego. And this sounds a little bit lonely. [crosstalk 00:00:25]
Christine: One of them is obviously my wonderful cohost Kendra Perry. And then we also have Dr. Evan Hirsch who is such a great friend of me and we boogied over at Mindshare Conference night and it was so funny because I sat next to him and I had no idea that it was him, actually. I really didn't recognize him for a second. And he just smiled and it was like, "Hi! Hi, creepy dude." It was the guy from [crosstalk 00:00:51].
Christine: You know it's like this Superman movie, you know without your glasses and put your glasses on, now I get it. I kind of get it now. So anyway, he's super wise, I had the honor of interviewing him for a summit that I did two years ago, and so we're going to talk about chronic fatigue which I think for us practitioners, really important to understand, 'cause it's more difficult or, not more difficult, but more complex than we might think.
Christine: To celebrate though, we have a review, thank you, and Kendra is going to take it away and share that with you and say thank you so much, and then we're going to introduce Evan more formally and then we're off to the races.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. So we have a really exciting review from Bella180. She says, "Love them," that's the title of her review, and then she says, "I love listening to them, they are fun and I feel they have a very relaxed way of getting a tonne of good and useful info. I totally feel like hanging out with them and being their friend." Someone wants to be our friend!
Christine: You are! You can hang out with us any time. [crosstalk 00:01:54] You're in the club.
Kendra Perry: Oh my god, I love it, guys. And if you guys love us and you want to support us, really the best way to do it is to leave us a five star review on iTunes 'cause it helps us get in front of more people, get out there, and it only takes two minutes, so you can just pause the podcast right now and then go over and do that thing on iTunes. Go give us a five star review. Thank you! All right, so I want to reduce, introduce Dr. Evan Hirsch, I want to reduce him to a small man. We're going to introduce him. And I just want to quickly read his bio 'cause he's kind of big shit.
Kendra Perry: I was just creeping on his website before I came on and I was like, "Oh my god, he's big shit, I'm getting excited." So, Dr. Evan Hirsch suffered with his fatigue for five years before he achieved resolution with the Fix Your Fatigue program that he pioneered in his medical practice. Through his bestselling book, free Facebook group, group and one-on-one Coaching," he has helped thousands of people across the nation optimize their energy and he is on a mission to help one million more. That's amazing.
Kendra Perry: He is board certified in family medicine, integrative medicine, and when he's not in the office, you can find him singing musicals, dancing, playing basketball with his family. So tell me more about the musicals. I'm like, super intrigued.
Christine: I buy it. I saw you on stage, dude. I totally buy it.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I love musicals. I love watching them, I love singing them.
Kendra Perry: Oh my god, that's amazing.
Christine: Which one is your favorite?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: "Les Mis" is definitely my all time favorite, but it really depends on the flavor of the month. "Dear Evan Hansen" is amazing, I mean I love story that's told with music, 'cause music brings out the emotion and just like, one song brings you back to the whole story and you totally feel it all over again.
Christine: Very true, very true. So I have Evan so much and we had this discussion before because you know, you're like my bridge guy, you're one of the board certified MDs, family doctors who I not, haughty might not be the right word, but it actually is, you know? He was actually totally fine with communicating with health practitioners who might not have gone to medical school and I find that so so important that we do have that bridge.
Christine: So it's going to be super exciting because we have so many different perspectives today to talk about. But, you suffered from chronic fatigue and it would be interesting because you had all this medical background already, so what was going through your head when you were tired all the time and you didn't really have an answer?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: At that point I was already practicing functional medicine and I had come out of my residency, my wife had had fatigue three years prior and we had had a child, I finished residency, I started a practice, and then I went into fatigue, and frankly I'm not a great patient and I was just kind of pushing through and I just thought that, "This is just temporary, it's going to go away" and it didn't, and I just got worse.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And brain fog got awful, to the point where I couldn't really remember much about the person who was sitting in front of me when I was doing my one-on-one consults. Thank goodness I had an electronic medical record where I could keep all that information in there, but once they were out of that chair, I really couldn't remember much. I could be present with them, I felt like I was practicing good care, but once they were gone, yeah it was out of my brain. And then I wasn't available for my family. I would come home and I couldn't play with my daughter.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: She was like, "Daddy let's run around," I'm like, "I just need to lie down." And I felt incredibly, my buttons on guilt and shame were pushed because I couldn't help out around the home. My wife was doing everything and I couldn't do dishes, you know I just couldn't support them and I felt awful about it. So finally I started diving into it deeper, started looking at all the research, read all the books I could, and piecing together all the causes that I could find.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: 'Cause what I was realizing, and also while I was doing this you know with functional medicine lends itself to the most complicated cases, and so as I got better treating other people and I was like, "Oh, I'm having success with this, I really need to start practicing this on myself," but I found that as they were getting better that it was really all about addressing all of the causes, and so that's my huge takeaway for people is that a lot of the times people are looking for the best treatment and I find that it's not the treatment, that it's all about the causes, because if you find the causes, then you can actually tailor the treatment specifically to the cause and then you're not wasting money and time and energy treating something that you don't even have.
Kendra Perry: So can we talk a little bit about the causes? I'm super interested what you found to be some of the primary drivers of the chronic fatigue, because I think from a conventional medical model I mean, no one really talks about that and I don't really even think there's a treatment for something like that.
Christine: No, I can only imagine that if you go to your doctor simply let's get some blood work done and then, you know, it might be a sluggish thyroid, but that's probably everything that there's in the toolbox. That's what I would imagine.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, conventionally it's thyroid, it's liver disease, congestive heart failure, it's like some of the more severe stuff that are usually as you get older, hepatitis, can be some of those too, but it's mainly thyroid. And so what I've found is that there's fifteen different causes of fatigue and they can really be grouped into two categories: one is of deficiencies and one is of toxicities. So the deficiencies are deficiencies in hormones, adrenals, thyroid, sex hormones, as well as nutrients, and then of course deficiencies in lifestyle stuff like sleep, deficiencies in exercise unless they're really chronically fatigued where they shouldn't be exercising. Deficiencies in water since most of us are walking around chronically dehydrated. And then [crosstalk 00:07:39] There you go, right?
Christine: Yeah see, you're right there and I'm just like, "guilty."
Dr. Evan Hirsch: We're going to pause this so that Christine can go get some water.
Christine: [inaudible 00:07:47] Slipping on stuff and I literally came up to my office and I saw my water bottle and I was like [inaudible 00:07:52]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Vader. And then there's the toxicities: heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, allergies, negative emotions, which people really undervalue. [crosstalk 00:08:06] Electromagnetic frequencies, you know all these toxicities that we're exposed to nowadays that just really cause all of those deficiencies. So, those are really, I found that there's like different levels of problems, so I'll consider a level one problem as a problem that can be fixed with lifestyle, lifestyle and diet. And the level two problem is one that can be fixed with deficiency and then level three problem is the one that people have a number of toxicities that have to be removed, and so those are the harder ones to treat.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, you definitely come across people where you're like, "Do we even need to do testing? It sounds like you just need to stop eating fruit loops in the morning and start liking your life again."
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Right! Huge.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, totally. That's awesome. That's such a comprehensive list, I love it, like that's exactly what I would say, so I feel like we're on the same page in that we should be friends.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Absolutely.
Christine: Yeah I was like, "Totally," but I'm the like, you know the person, I'm like the one in the back in the classroom like, "Aw fuck this isn't how I learned to do," you know? So there is a, I have a plan. I'm a new practitioner, which I'm not people, but you know, imagine me to do, a lazy one. But how do you work through this? It totally makes sense, right? Those are all the things where I would go, "Light bulb, light bulb," and check, check, check, and see what's going on.
Christine: But if I have someone, and say we just had a coach who just went to health coach school, a general health coach school, and it's like, "Oh my god, I'm totally overwhelmed right now." Do you have a priority list? How do you even tackle all of this? I mean for us, I think, after a while you just even listen to the person and you kind of see things flare up in them, like in their aura, you know, however you work. You just hear it out. But when you haven't had as many clients yet, how do you logically do this?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So you do kind of like what I talked about going from like level one to level three. So you start off with the stuff that you know. If you've just come out of school, you know about lifestyle and diet stuff. So you're going to clean up their diet, you're going to get rid of their grains and their gluten and their dairy and all that crap, and you're going to get them sleeping better, and you're going to start working on mindset stuff, so all of that stuff can be really great and you can get a certain number of people better. And then if you're not getting results in three months or so, depending on how often you're seeing them, then you're going to move on to level two.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So then you're going to look at okay, let's start running some labs. This isn't that way that I do it, I get all of my labs, I try to get them all up front as soon as possible 'cause I find it saves a lot of time, but you also don't have to have your people spending $4000 on all these labs initially, 'cause that's not your specialty.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So then you start looking at the deficiencies. So you're looking at adrenals, thyroid, sex hormones, nutrients, making sure they're drinking enough water. You know, all these sort of things. That's where I would go. And then if you're still not having success, and you also have to make sure your treatments are correct, that you're optimizing all these things. So I do ramp-ups on all of these things, 'cause most of the time the body's going to tell you when you've have enough of them. So if you're ramping up on your adrenals, you've got them nice and robust, and then you move on to mitochondrial support, and then you move on to thyroid, I call those the big three, and I ramp up on each of those to a significant amount so that you're making sure that you're giving, 'cause I like to move the needle.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So I like to use things that are powerful and safe at the same time which is why I love natural medicine. So we ramp up on those, and that's going to give you an idea about how much, what you have to go to next, but you want to make sure that you're doing it right, that you're not just giving somebody a glandular on adrenal support, or if you're giving them, the worst is giving them adaptogens. 'Cause adaptogens are wonderfully balancing, but they're usually not strong enough and you're not going to shift the needle if somebody's got fatigue.
Kendra Perry: Okay, I love that. I'm always saying the same thing about adaptogens. I'm just like, sure, but it's not really going to do anything. I just want to back up a little bit because I want to, can you actually tell me what is chronic fatigue syndrome, how is it diagnosed, and is there a difference between chronic fatigue and chronic fatigue syndrome, or are they synonymous? I would love to know that.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, they are totally different. Not totally, but they are different. And they're a gamut. You know, whenever I'm looking at things I'm always looking at a gamut. I don't care about these diagnoses. Chronic fatigue syndrome, according to the Institute of Medicine and CDC and stuff like that is, if you had a certain number of symptoms for six months. Well, if you've had fatigue that's not relieve, I mean the way that I define fatigue is if you have fatigue if you're tired and it's not relieved by rest.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So if you're getting seven to nine hours of sleep a night, good sleep, and you're waking up and you are still tired, then there's a problem. And even after a week of this happening, you really need to start looking at what's going on here and what might be some of the causes. Now, if you've just had the flu that wiped you out and it's taken you a month to recover, first of it shouldn't take that long, but second off, as long as you recover and you get back to base line, like you're doing all right.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: But if it's lingering, you want to do something about it sooner than later. The body is yelling at you to do something about it. You have to listen. So I consider, and then chronic fatigue is just that persisting for several weeks to several months. It doesn't have to be six months and it doesn't have to be all those other symptoms that they talk about too.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, it's so interesting because I say chronic fatigue a lot. Like I say debilitating fatigue, ongoing fatigue, chronic fatigue, and I say chronic fatigue a lot and I get these people messaging me on Facebook who have chronic fatigue syndrome and they're getting mad at me, 'cause they're like, "You make it sound like you can actually reverse it and get rid of it! You shouldn't say that and you shouldn't say that," and I'm like, "Well, I think you can reverse it."
Christine: I think you can.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:14:09] That's kind of what I'm trying to tell you. It's just interesting. Thanks for clarifying that.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah and you know that challenge is that they haven't been helped and it's been 10, 20, 30 years, so then they get pissed off at somebody talking about a way to help somebody, and either they don't have the hope anymore to explore another option. They are resigned to where they're at. So now they're just pissed off because what if you're right? What if you're right and you can heal it and that means that they've been suffering needlessly for all of these years and they don't want to take that next step because it's too scary or it's too challenging or it's too expensive or whatever they think.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I think people really, a big reason why I don't like diagnoses is that people really connect with it. They bring their diagnosis into their story and-
Christine: They become the diagnosis.
Kendra Perry: They become it, yeah. So I think that's a tough one to deal with for sure. [crosstalk 00:15:03]
Christine: They define everything by their diagnosis. "Oh, I can't do this 'cause I have thyroid," "Oh, I can't do this because I'm gluten intolerant," and it's like, work on it then! It's like...
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Although it's challenging to hold both sides, too, because often times having a diagnosis can be really comforting. You know, as long as it's the cause. Like, okay, I've got heavy metals, chemicals, molds, and infections. Yes, there's a lot of reasons why you have fatigue. So it's like, "Oh, and all of a sudden I've been suffering all this time and now I know why." That's very different than grabbing that label and being like, "I can't do things because I've got this label."
Christine: Absolutely. So I have a question. When we were talking about gauging the needle and not using adaptogens and things like that. I find it really hard to find research on what to use. So I use only natural supplements of course, but I find it really really difficult to know what to use, what not to use, obviously I'm in Europe, so I'm more limited as well. How did you figure out your protocols? How did you, I can imagine you had to figure it out by yourself. I can't imagine that it was just there.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Correct. Well I mean, I like to copy people who are successful and then I make modifications. And I like to ramp-up and I like to experiment, so I'm going to keep pushing the dose until the body says, "No," and I do that enough times where I get an idea about what a good dose is, what a good dose isn't, what side effects people are going to get from things like licorice root. I used to use licorice root all the time with everybody in high doses and then people started getting high blood pressure and they get all this swelling and electrolyte imbalance and I'm like, "Oh no, I've got to find something else. Licorice root is good as a part of all this, but I've got to find other things in order to complement."
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So you look at the research, you look at what other people are doing that they say is successful, but you always have to take that with a grain of salt because everybody thinks their protocols are amazing.
Christine: Yeah, for sure. I'm just too overwhelmed to even change mine. [inaudible 00:17:06] Obviously they work, but I'm convinced that there could be even better ones, but literally at the moment it's just too overwhelming. I think I could fall into that rabbit hole and just not come out of it for years. Just give it to me, tell me what to do. But things are looking well, I mean that's why we take other courses and why we try to [inaudible 00:17:29]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Right. And being curious, and when you can't help somebody that you go back to the drawing board. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water, but you say, "Okay, what am I missing?" So if they're working, awesome, that's great. If they're working 100% of the time, great, but if they're working 95% of the time then when they're not working, then it's like, "Okay, what am I missing," and that's when you learn. And that's what happened to me and in treating myself and in treating all of these people.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I started off in integrative medicine and functional medicine where I was like, "Okay, I'm fixing all these deficiencies, I got a certain number of people better," and then there were people who I couldn't get better. It's like, "Okay, now I need to go to environmental medicine. I need to start learning more about," I never wanted to treat infections. It was always way too complicated for me and all this stuff about Lyme and I was like, "I do not want to go into that world." But then I realized that I couldn't help those people until I started learning.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I read Horowitz's awesome book on differentiating all the co-infections and then I started learning more about these awesome supplement lines like Fire and White and Beyond Balance and a number of these that are really good at getting at the infections. I learned about LDI, Low Dose Immunotherapy, and became an expert in those things because I had to, and because it's so incredibly gratifying when somebody comes and I can say, "Oh, you've got bartonella and I know exactly how to treat you and you're going to feel better in this amount of period."
Kendra Perry: I'm super intrigued-
Christine: [crosstalk 00:19:00] Because it's true! It's like, I love it. [inaudible 00:19:01]
Kendra Perry: I know. It's overwhelming for sure, there's a lot [inaudible 00:19:04] and you have to be a forever student. But I'm super intrigued about Lyme and mold these days, 'cause yeah, that's not something I ever wanted to deal with. I would refer those people out, but now I have all these women in my group membership program where I'm like, "I think you have mold. I think you have Lyme." And now I'm like, "Oh crap. I was right about this." And so how often do you find that is involved in fatigued and what's sort of your general approach to those types of people, because I know the symptoms for the two can be very, like the same and there can be a lot of overlap with the two as well.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, there's a huge amount of overlap and so there's certain things, as I'm going through creating my group coaching program right now, there's a certain things that I asterisk where you can really kind of make a diagnosis by symptoms, but there are certain things that you can't. And a lot of the toxicities you can't because there's so much crossover. But mold is huge. I never thought I would be dealing with so much mold, but 50% of all the buildings in our country in the modern world have water damage.
Kendra Perry: 50%?! Holy crap. I was like, "What?" Okay, that's good to know.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And most of those have mold. And so then it really depends on how much exposure you've had, what your genes look like. I don't ascribe to the Shoemaker protocol and it's entirety, but there's certain things that I pull out that I think are good. You have to assess the body, looking at mold in the body, and you have to assess the home, looking at mold in the home. Because if somebody's living in a moldy environment, I can't get them better.
Christine: I know, it's nuts. And I just had a client who showed me a picture and everything was green, like literally. And it was a new building, it was only five years old, but obviously they skimped on building materials, I don't know. But it's so hard because I was like, "You have to move, basically," and she's was like, "No fucking way," and I was like," Well there's not much I can do." But it's rough. I think it's so underestimated and I had just a friend last week posting on Facebook that she needs a place to go because she go severely sick and she just found out it was because of mold and she needs to move. It's nuts. I think it's a topic that, as an integrative practitioner, a functional medicine practitioner, you have to know about. And so it's on my to-do list as well.
Kendra Perry: I still have a mold course, so I'll give you access to it, Christine. You can- [crosstalk 00:21:24]
Christine: Oh good. I still haven't done yours, you know! I'm like, so it's literally my course! For some reason I'm just like, I need to oh god, I need a second life, yeah.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And Kendra if you want me to come talk about mold in your course, I'm happy to do so.
Kendra Perry: I would love that. That would be so fantastic, because yeah, it's a hot topic. A lot of people are asking about it. I sort of know a few things like, generally to do. I'm making sure I'm asking those questions in the intake form, but yeah, I'm kind of like, "Okay, we need to do," so obviously the first step is getting out of the mold environment when it comes to mold. And then after that, I've heard that you want to do a lot of binding. Is that your approach?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah. And so, just to give you specifics, the ERMI test for the home, initially, to determine whether or not they have mold in the home, because they could, and then you want to do a urine mycotoxin test, either through Real Time Labs or through Great Plains. And so then you know there's mold in your body and whether or not there's mold in your home. If there's mold in your body and there's no mold in your home, and you know that the mold in your body is from another location, either from work or your car...
Kendra Perry: In your car? Would that be like for people who live in like a rainy, tropical environment? Would they have moldy cars? 'Cause that can happen to anyone.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: It can happen to anybody. Oftentimes it's because the mold will get into the clothes, it'll get into furniture, it can get in get into everything and then you just basically take those clothes into your car and then your car gets moldy. But oftentimes there can be a leak in the car as well. But once you make sure, you look at all those things, you make sure the person's not being exposed to mold, then you know, "Okay, this is from a previous place."
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Like I lived in a moldy place when I was in medical school, so I was like, "Okay, my place is clean now. It means that the mold that is in my body right now is from a previous infestation, a previous exposure, and so then I need to remove that." And so then that's with binders, so there's a number of different binders. There's activated charcoal, there are the french clays, there are humic and folic acids, oftentimes using a combination can be good. There's certain binders that are better for different things. And then using glutathiones so oftentimes binding things up and using glutathione to get it out. So those are kind of the big things that I'll use.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And then if somebody can't get out of a space, oftentimes using an air filter like IQ Air or the Air Doctor. Basically, you want something that can get mycotoxins or mold toxins which are particle size that are down to .003 microns. And so you have to use something like those two that'll get down that small. You can't just use a regular HEPA filter, because those will get mold spores. They may say "mold" on them, but that's just mold spores, that's not mycotoxins.
Kendra Perry: Right. Yeah, that's so interesting. So what I've found with the people who I suspect have mold, they're the people who just like don't respond normally to the protocol that I give them. It seems like every time we try to do anything with them, they're like having a crazy, exaggerated, intense reaction and you're just like, "Oh my god. Like, what is going on here." And yeah, they just seem to, do their detox pathways get really clogged up or something or does that affect that? Because that's what I see.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Absolutely. Yeah, and some of the symptoms that they'll get that are less non-specific or more specific are some of the sinus stuff, sometimes they'll get ear congestion. They can get itching, so itching around the anus, itching around the ears, which can be fungi in general, it can be yeast or mold. You can get neuropathies. Often times they will walk into a place, they can detect mold instantly because they've got so much mold in their sinuses, so they can smell it, and then they know that they need to leave, otherwise they're going to start getting brain fog. So those are some of the more specific symptoms. But otherwise it's just the chronic fatigue and the sensitivities are really a big one.
Kendra Perry: Oh man, that's so interesting. So mold is a big one. So something I'm interested about, I feel like mold has always been around, do you think there's something going on these days that is making us more sensitive to mold? Because it's not like mold is a new thing. Hasn't it always been around?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yes. But there's a couple things. So one is total body burden. So the more crap that you have on your liver and the more crap that you have on your immune system, the worse your going to be, so the more reactive you're going to be. If you've got heavy metals, chemicals, and molds, which then allows a bunch of these infections to become opportunistic in the body and start wreaking havoc. That's one thing.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: The other thing is kind of how buildings are made. I've got a 1920's home, it's got good ventilation. A lot of the newer homes are sealed way too soon. So usually you know, Christine you were talking about this like it's only a five year-old home. If you're driving around town, you're seeing a home being built and it's raining and it's framed, it's just being in the framing stage or whatever, it's just wood, like that home is just prime because it gets wet. As soon as they think it dries, all of a sudden they're tightening it up, sealing it up really tight, and then it's nice and warm, and that wet wood is all the sudden starting to grow mold.
Kendra Perry: My mind is just blown. I'm building a house right now.
Christine: [crosstalk 00:26:53] You're like, "No!"
Kendra Perry: I'm like, "Oh my god, what do I need to do?"
Christine: Yeah, but it's a problem here because all the new houses are, in Europe, have this energy pass, you know? So they need to be type A which means that they have to use as less energy as possible which means that insulation is crazy. It's supposed to be that you shouldn't even open your windows, so ventilation is inside of the house all the time. But what I can see is that yes, it's super hot all the time, first of all, you do need less energy, but it's because everything is so isolated.
Christine: And the thing, though, that you can see pretty much everywhere and here in Luxembourg we are building like crazy at the moment, is that even after a few years, even the outside starts to become very very green. Like it starts to mold from the outside already which just shows me that, okay, even if this is just outside, it's not in your bathroom, this cannot be healthy. And it's beautiful, like high standard buildings, but I just think that we have a building practice at the moment that hasn't been thought through. So I think it's like, yeah this is not going to work. It's going to have some effects down the line for sure.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, and what people can do proactively is just do testing, you know? Like even something cheap like a mold plate test every year, every couple of years, making sure that if you do have a leak, looking in your attic, looking in your basement. If you do have a leak that you address it as soon as possible. Oftentimes as soon as the leak happens, you're already too late or you have to start doing some remediation. But staying on top of it as much as possible. It is unfortunate, but all you can do is the best that you can, and then just make sure you've got binders on board. I recommend that most people should be consuming binders on a regular basis anyway because of all the crap that we're exposed to, so.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I take binders three times a day and it's like I've been doing this BioTox which is a binder of some of the stuff you mentioned: humic acid, folic acid, yucca root. Yeah, the Microbe Formulas guys, they make good products. I'm into them. Very cool.
Kendra Perry: Okay, so mold is a big one. Can you talk a little bit about the environmental stuff, like the heavy metals and stuff? Because I love this. This is a big one and I love seeing people talking about it because I feel like, right now, gut health and infections is so trendy and popular and everyone's talking about it, but I a lot less hear people actually talking about the environmental chemicals, the environmental toxins and how that is huge in chronic fatigue.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah. And you know we all start off treating the gut. It's kind of what we learn. And at some point, as you get better and you start getting sicker patients, you're gonna be treating the gut and you're not going to be having success. And then you're going to have to start looking at these other things and that's what happened to me. So yeah, heavy metals, lots of exposures. Mercury amalgams.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I had a lot of mercury, I mean I had pretty much every cause which is why I had fatigue. And so I had a lot of mercury from growing up, I had like tuna fish several times a week. The bigger the fish, the more mercury because of all the coal plants that we have in the world right now that are producing mercury vapor that goes into our oceans. So everything that's coming out of the ocean right now has mercury in it, and the bigger the fish, the more the fat, the more the mercury. So tuna and swordfish are huge and so I had a lot of tuna fish growing up, I had mercury filling, every time you bite down you're releasing mercury vapor from that amalgam.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So that was my exposure. Arsenic we know about issues with rice. In this country we know about runoff in some of the stuff and some of the herbs and whatnot from China. You've got industrial plant on top of the hill and then the farms down below. And that can be anywhere in the world, not just China. Cadmium from second hand smoke or smoking. So there's a lot of, and then lead, you know it's so interesting the stories that I get, people who are working with plasters or just doing art stuff or lead, lead paints, lead gasoline. So and so grew up outside a lead gas station, or their father worked in a gas station or whatever.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: The other thing that's really interesting too that people don't realize is that a lot of this stuff gets passed down from mother to child vertically through the placenta. So, moms dump all of their good stuff into their babies and all of their bad stuff. So heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, all this stuff are going to get dumped into the baby. Which is why there are some people who, they have have children who have autism, and they're like, "I have no clue why." And when you do the testing, they're just full of toxins.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: There's several studies now on assessing umbilical cord blood and there's 250 different kinds of chemicals and toxins that are found in umbilical cord blood. So these kids are coming out toxic, which is why, our kids are supposed to be the first generation that's not going to outlive their parents. So I mean, this is a huge problem. A lot of this stuff we are getting through that passing, through the placenta. So yeah, that's heavy metals. I don't know-
Kendra Perry: Yeah, that generational toxicity is a big thing. Like I'm pretty sure I came into this world with a whole bunch of crap. Because my parents are like in their mid-seventies and my dad can still kick my ass on a mountain bike and I can't keep up and it's embarrassing. Generational toxicity!
Christine: Damn you, Karen!
Kendra Perry: I can't keep up!
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Right, well and he doesn't have your mother's toxicity.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, exactly. That's a good point. And I mean my parents, they were raised on eating actual farmer's food. They were raised on, I was raised in the 80's. I ate margarine and low fat everything and [inaudible 00:32:45].
Christine: Such a difference made.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. So it's like when you look at all these causes, it really kind of, you're like, "Well no wonder everyone's so tired." And it's definitely the most common symptom I see in my clients which is why I really transitioned to kind of focusing on it, because originally I was doing gut and hormones and then I was like, "Everyone's so fucking tired. Maybe we should start talking about this." It's so common.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And it's so complex. I think if you can treat autistic kids, that's like the ultimate in functional medicine. And then next is fatigue. I mean, because there's so many different causes. You have to be able to treat the gut. You have to be able to treat all these toxicities. There's just so many potential causes.
Christine: It's like this beautiful kaleidoscope of fangs, you know? So I'm still look for like, do you do mentorships or anything like that? I have all these courses I want to take and I'm just like, "It's too much," you know? But is it something that you do?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I'm going to be coming out with a course in the next six months or so with-
Christine: For practitioners as well, or?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, for practitioners.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, awesome.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Right now I'm doing the group coaching for clients, but then yeah, practitioners. And it's going to be, I'll have like live Q&A twice a month or so so that we can go over cases in addition to having the digital content so people can run their cases. And I'll do it probably as a membership model so that, if people use it for what they need and then if they don't need it, they don't need it sort of thing.
Christine: Sign me up!
Kendra Perry: Me too. I love it. Yeah, I think there needs to be more courses for practitioners that kind of ties everything together, 'cause who were we interviewing the other day?
Kendra Perry: It was a doctor. Oh yeah, Tim Jackson. He's like, "There's no school for functional medicine. Sure there's a university of functional medicine, but it's not very functional." And I mean, and you still can't run the test, right? You really need to bring it together and I feel like we can all kind of like, all of us practitioners should just combine brains and make a super brain.
Christine: It's very true. I think we have such a huge movement and so many really smart people that come out with their protocols with, you know, what you do right now you know, Evan. Like learn from every expert and then puzzle it together. It's just like, I'm the lazy one, I just wait until all you guys come out with courses and just, you know, summarize the whole thing.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: That's not lazy, that's smart.
Kendra Perry: That is smart.
Christine: I'm a CliffsNotes kind of person, you know?
Kendra Perry: Well that's good though, 'cause a lot of people are just like you, right? They don't want to be boots on the ground, they just want to get the information from the experts and that's totally cool. No shame in that, girl. Don't shame yourself.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, no shame.
Christine: I got fine while I fooled with this, so it's totally fine. But I feel like there is no real hub, you know? So it is a shame a little bit, 'cause I think a lot of us have to re-invent the wheel in a way all the time. But it's obviously good if you understand everything, but it makes me and I'm sure a lot of listeners very happy to know that you're coming out with a course and a membership. So that's awesome to hear.
Kendra Perry: We'll keep our listeners posted on that course, just [crosstalk 00:35:49]
Christine: Yes, please keep[crosstalk 00:35:51]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I will.
Christine: So we can let them know when it's ready.
Kendra Perry: Okay. Can we talk a little bit about Lyme? This is another one that I'd love to pick your brain on, 'cause yeah, another one where I have the mold/Lyme people where I'm like, "You maybe have mold, but maybe you have Lyme." And we addressed mold, but let's talk a little bit about Lyme. And do you think people can still have Lyme even if they didn't notice that bullseye bite on their body?
Christine: [inaudible 00:36:17] thing, yeah.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, only about 10% of people actually get the bullseye rash.
Kendra Perry: Awesome.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah and oftentimes they don't have Lyme per se, like borrelia, but they can have a lot of the other co-infections. So there's a lot that can travel inside that tick or anything that takes a blood meal. So it can be ticks, it can be sand flies, it can be biting fleas, it can be blood transfusion. It can be vertically from mother to child, it can be sex, it can be kissing, like there's so many different ways that you can get a lot of this stuff. They're very opportunistic bugs.
Christine: I just want to create a bubble right now and just go inside.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Well and sometimes it's not even a big inoculation. I was talking to somebody yesterday who yes, he got bit by a tick. He saw this big fat tick and then he was really badly fatigued. It's like, yeah that's real causation, but for a lot of folks, they don't have that sort of thing. And oftentimes, we all have these infections.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So bartonella is an infection that's found in upwards of 50% of all domestic animals. If you've ever been licked in the face by a cat or a dog or whatever, you probably have bartonella, but you don't have the symptoms of it because your immune system keeps it in check.
Kendra Perry: Right.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And so it's only when these bugs become out of balance and they become opportunistic when you get heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, motor vehicle accident, divorce, stressful whatever that causes the cortisol to stop managing the immune system and then these bugs come out and say, "Hey nobody's managing us anymore. Let's have a party!"
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I would, too. I would do that exact same thing.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Exactly.
Christine: You and me both, girl. [crosstalk 00:38:00]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So you don't have to get, so a lot of us have these bugs already, you know. Epstein-barr virus. It's like being re triggered. So it's setting up an environment that is not habitable for these bugs. It's creating more of a balance and it's less about eradication because oftentimes we can't destroy them entirely. We just want to bring the volume down on them and then release the immune system. Because what I've found is if you don't have a functioning immune system, you cannot bring those bugs back into balance. And you can't have a functioning immune system if you've got heavy metals, chemicals, and molds.
Kendra Perry: Word.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: You're not going to bring the immune system back in balance with the bugs.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. And do you think there's a way to address Lyme that doesn't involve a ton of antibiotics? I feel like most of the Lyme people I meet, they're on a crazy antibiotic schedule. I mean like, okay well maybe that'll work, but what's going to happen after that?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, I don't use any antibiotics and I get really good success. You know, all the research on antibiotics are, you stop the antibiotics and your symptoms come back.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, there you go.
Christine: Why is nobody telling you that, right? It's like, seriously, people?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: But the herbs will go deeper and you will get more eradication, but the challenge is, like I said, a lot of those people. So this is also a challenge of the functional medicine community is 'cause you've got the mold expert and you've got the Lyme expert and you've got the leaky gut expert, but nobody's pulling this stuff together like you're talking about with Tim.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: It's just not happening. So if somebody's focusing on Lyme and they're not getting rid of heavy metals, chemicals, and molds, then they're never going to be able to get rid of these bugs, you know? And there's good research on that too. I know that there was one study on mold and Lyme, people who had both, when they treated the mold, the Lyme went away.
Kendra Perry: Oh, interesting.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, and it was a small study but it's still significant. I still see it a lot where we remove those things and then we can get rid of the Lyme. The other thing, too, is figuring out exactly which bug somebody has because, and this is another one of the problems with the antibiotics, is that in order to address all of them, you have to use multiples and different combinations, and the herbs are a lot more elegant in terms of how they work. But, you have to be very specific that you have. So you know, if somebody's got borrelia, AKA Lyme, they have to have symptoms of either muscle pain, joint pain, or nerve pain that moves around the body and comes and goes.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: So if you don't have those symptoms, you can't have borrelia. If you have bartonella, you're going to have three of the following symptoms, where headaches, neck pain, body pain, anxiety, depression, sleep problems, pain on the bottom of the feet, usually misdiagnosed as plantar fasciatus, cramping, usually in the calves, usually at night, cramping of the muscles, usually in the calves usually at night, thyroid problems, usually stretch marks, often times in weird places on the body. So those are all going to be, and if you have three of those, often times that can be really indicative of bartonella, especially the pain on the bottom of the feet and the muscle cramping.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: But it's huge in people who can't sleep. So Christine this is really big where-
Christine: This is very good. I'm going to ask them about their feet next time. I haven't done that yet, but...
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Absolutely, yeah. Ask them about-[crosstalk 00:41:27]
Christine: Dude, it's just like another question in my questionnaire where people are like, "Why would you want to know about this?" And it's like, "Yeah well now..."
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah if I don't get people better with replacing all the deficiencies and working on all the sleep stuff that we talked about on your summit, then I go into the infections, you know. Bartonella can play a big role. And then babesia plays a huge role. Often times these people can't sleep at all. They have sweats because it's very [crosstalk 00:41:56] it's malaria where they'll have day sweats or night sweats. They usually have shortness of breath or a cough or some sort of lung issue that's happening.
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:42:04]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And then they have really bad anxiety to the point of panic and they've got really bad depression to the point of suicidal thoughts. And most of the people that commit suicide around these things usually have babesia. So trying to fine tune, and then to make things more complicated, different parts of the country these bugs are going to look differently. Different parts of the world, these bugs are going to look differently. So I recently was at a conference where I learned that actually on the East coast, sometimes those bartonella symptoms that I just mentioned can be from babesia. It's like, "All right, great. So if I'm not having success this way, then I have to start looking for that." So it can be more complicated, but those symptoms can really help point people in the right direction. They can be like, "Oh my gosh, I totally have bartonella and nobody's ever talked to me about that before!" And the treatment's not that hard as long as, treatment's not that hard if it's straightforward, but you know you have to remove all the other crap too.
Kendra Perry: And so it's better to kind of determine if you have these infections based on symptoms and not with testing? Or is there a way to test for these things?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, so the blood testing is not good because when we're looking at Western blot tests or whatever for Lyme or any sort of serology test, you're looking at the immune system's reaction to the infection. So if the immune system is dysfunctional because you have heavy metals, chemicals, and molds, and if you're looking, you're trying to assess for a test where the thing that you're testing for is not working right. So I really like the DNA connections test which is a urine PCR test. And I try to provocate every test that I do. I try to provoke it. I try to push things out of their hiding spots and so what they do is they, you can either do intense exercise for 30 minutes prior to that urine test, or you can get a lymph massage prior to the urine test because a lot of this stuff is [crosstalk 00:43:54]
Christine: Oh, my god. My mind has been blown this entire episode.
Kendra Perry: I know! I've taken like five pages of notes!
Christine: The glasses emoji is like, right in my face.
Kendra Perry: I've got the star one, the stars eyes emoji.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Well we're recording it right? Oh no, we're not recording! Just kidding.
Kendra Perry: No, we are. Oh my god that's happened before. Don't scare us.
Christine: Yeah, don't joke. But this is awesome. I'm just like, gosh, your brain.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, this is awesome.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Just trying to drop a ton of knowledge.
Christine: Good, we like that.
Kendra Perry: So good.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And don't get overwhelmed, anybody. This is just knowledge, this is just education, you don't have to do anything about this right now. Just take it for what it is.
Christine: Just sign up to Evan's course once it's ready.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, like you said if you came and talked to my practitioners, because it's so funny. I'm like going through a lesson, I'm like, "This is a lot of information. I'm probably overwhelming you," and they're like, "Bring it on! I love being overwhelmed!" It's so hilarious. I'm like, "Okay, here you go!"
Christine: It's true, though. Like when I get into something I'm a pit bull, like I can't let go. I want to know everything, like every little bit of it. But I think that's like a common trait. But I wish we had, like I really have this idea that at some point we need to bring all of, maybe our guests or just everyone you know together and just like, everyone has brain dump their expertise and we'll [inaudible 00:45:22]. Just like a charge [inaudible 00:45:25] all our knowledge in like one thing. Wouldn't that be amazing?
Kendra Perry: The ultimate brain.
Christine: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It would be awesome. I need to think about that. I need to do something like that. No, this is awesome, like I love it so much.
Kendra Perry: Okay, so what haven't we talked about. I feel like we've talked about a lot of good stuff.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Let's see. Heavy metals, well we haven't talked about, so chemicals, 84,000 chemicals that we're exposed to on a regular basis. You know, everything from lipsticks and cosmetics to pesticides in our foods. There's been some good studies on before and after with kids. Feeding them an organic diet versus a non-organic diet and they have pesticides in their urine and they've got behavior issues and you remove them and they get better. And I really like the Skin Deep website [crosstalk 00:46:18]
Kendra Perry: I use that all the time.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: EWG.org. Really important site for making sure your cosmetics are clean. You know 70%, this is coming back to heavy metals, but 70% of all lipsticks have lead in them. It's really important not to be, and these nano particles are awful, too. There's toxicities in these nano particles that are getting, it's like getting an IV of chemicals right into your body. So chemicals are a big one to avoid.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I think, I mean women, I see this a lot in my membership because its for women and I mean like, they're just lathering, I mean women use so many products. When I go see my girlfriends in the city I'm like, "What the fuck is on your vanity?" There's like 500 products and I'm like, "What are you even like, do you spend like five hours getting ready in the morning? What's all that shit for?" It's crazy. It's totally crazy. And yeah, women just put it all over their skin, make up, make up's a really bad one. Really hard to find, I find, good non-toxic make up that also doesn't have metals in it. Because even some of the mineral make ups have titanium in them or different iron oxides, that sort of thing. It's a tough one. [inaudible 00:47:24] Give me an idea.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: It is.
Kendra Perry: Yeah. And what are your thoughts on glyphosate. That's a bad one, hey?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Oh yeah, for sure, yeah. I like to test glyphosate in people. But yeah, glyphosate is Round Up. It's that weed killer that causes a lot of neuropathies. It's very quickly becoming a cause of type 2 diabetes. Seeing as like skinny diabetes. You know people who are like, "Why do you have type 2 diabetes?" Well, it's because the pancreas has been toxified by pesticides including glyphosate. And then the insulin can't manage the blood sugars anymore.
Kendra Perry: And which test are you using to test for glyphosate?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: I like Great Plains. I like a lot of their tests.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:48:05] Is it like a GPL-TOX one, or?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: They've got a glyphosate one.
Kendra Perry: Oh, they do? [crosstalk 00:48:12]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Yeah, it's like $99.
Kendra Perry: Oh, awesome. I'm going to order it today.
Christine: We have a different version of glyphosate over here, across the pond.
Kendra Perry: Really?
Christine: Yeah. It's still glyphosate, but it's still toxic, most likely, but it's different. It's different from the US because a lot of the ingredients have been taken out because they don't qualify for EU standards.
Kendra Perry: The EU is much ahead of North America, that's for sure.
Christine: There's always like, I feel a little bit better, but it's like, yeah. Still not idea.
Kendra Perry: And so if you could choose three tests to run on every single client you ever saw, what tests would they be? What are your top three?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Let's see. So when I do my assessment, symptom-wise I can determine adrenals, thyroid, sex hormones, mitochondria for the most part, so I don't need to test on those so much. Let's see. Heavy metals, chemicals, molds... You said three tests?
Kendra Perry: Three tests. Only three. You can only run three.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Only run three. So I would say heavy metals and I would say urine mycotoxin for molds. Oh, and the heavy metal test would be a provocated urine test from doctor's data, and then the urine mycotoxin test from Great Plains labs, and then provocated with glutathione, and then I would do the GI map test for stool infections. And a fourth would be serology for like Epstein-barr, mycoplasma, chlamydia.
Kendra Perry: Interesting. Very cool. I always run heavy metals test, I always run the GI test. Those are part of my top ones, too. I love it. We're on the same page, great. Love it. [crosstalk 00:50:09]
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Great. Awesome. It's always nice to get that confirmation.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I love it. And I'm going to look into this urine mycotoxins test. I find that really interesting. Learn a little bit more about that. Awesome, well thank you so much! This has been enlightening, both our heads exploded multiple times during this [crosstalk 00:50:24] which is a good thing, we like our heads to explode on this podcast.
Christine: We do.
Kendra Perry: Do you have any last questions, Christine?
Christine: No, I am exhausted. I have a little brain, you know? But no, I love it, absolutely love it. I think we have to get you back on at some point to talk about your group program and all of the things that you do, you know. Client-wise, too.
Kendra Perry: The business side of things.
Christine: Yeah, so we'll have to do a part two, so stay tuned for that. But thank you so much. This has been so much wisdom. I cannot wait for your program to come out now for practitioners. Like, really am like, I'm ready, go.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: All right, I'm getting on it.
Christine: But yeah, I think that's pretty much it. Oh, you obviously have a book, so people should obviously get that. And just tell people who-
Dr. Evan Hirsch: Right, I've dumped a lot of my protocols into the book.
Kendra Perry: I'm sorry is it called "Fix Your Fatigue?" Is that the name of your book?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: It's called "Fix Your Fatigue," yeah.
Kendra Perry: "Fix Your Fatigue," awesome I'm going to [crosstalk 00:51:17] buy it today
Dr. Evan Hirsch: It's on Amazon. You can find more about me at fixyourfatigue.org. There's links to my free Facebook group. You can actually download right now, I don't know how much longer it's going to be up there, but you can download my book as a PDF for free right now on my website.
Christine: [crosstalk 00:51:34] I think I have it, actually.
Kendra Perry: I want that. Awesome.
Dr. Evan Hirsch: And then I've got the group program which started in January. And I'm doing live trainings, but I'm also recording all of it so people can jump in at anytime.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Amazing. And all your social media handles are Fixyourfatigue, hey?
Dr. Evan Hirsch: They are, yeah. DrEvanHirsch or Fixyourfatigue.
Kendra Perry: Okay, perfect. Awesome. All right, guys, thank you so much for joining in. Remember, we love Instagram stories, so take a screen shot of this episode if you're listening and share it to your stories. Mention @360HealthBizPodcast and we will share it back to our stories and we will be mutual friends on Instagram. And follow us if you're not already following us and thanks so much guys. As always, we really appreciate you hanging out with us and dealing with our ridiculous talks, and we will see you again in two weeks time. Bye!
Podcasts are our go to learning tools for business & marketing. While Kendra listens to true crime podcasts before she goes to sleep at night, Christine finds community in listening to podcasts (thankfully not within the true crime podcasts). You can listen to ANY podcasts ANY WHERE at ANY TIME. In this episode, we delve into our top 10 favorite podcasts about business and health. The commonality of them all – real hosts with great tips and fun energy. Tune in to this episode to find out what great podcasts we listen to!
Podcasts we discussed:
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Christine Hanse: Hello, wonderful people out there. Welcome to a new episode of The 360 Health Biz Podcast today with the hostess of the mostest times two, we have the wonderful Kendra Perry coming in live from Nelson, Canada. Lovely, and very refreshed from a little spa time out, which we can never have enough of when we do heavy lifting, lots of hustling, we do our time out; and myself, Christine Hansen. We're super excited to talk to you today. This episode is going to be a little bit meta because we're going to look at other podcasts that we actually like and that we love listening to. Just giving you guys some ideas on what else you can put into your subscribe list. Obviously, you will have us on there already.
Kendra Perry: I think so.
Christine Hanse: Obviously, you adore us and you've left us a review on iTunes. We actually want to thank one of you who's done that. Kendra, I'm going ahead and give this over to you and just have a quick thank you session here. Then we're going to get straight into our material of this week.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Thanks, Christine, for the wonderful intro as always. Yeah, I'm pretty excited about this review because I know they don't make it the easiest for you to review podcasts. It's too bad. You can't just do it in the app. You actually have to go to the website. We are very grateful from Shelby, too from Canada, a fellow Canadian. She says, "OMG, Kendra and Christine are hilarious. I love how fun they are, and I often find myself laughing out loud. They provide a ton of valuable education on so many important topics. They make marketing fun. I love you, ladies, so much and I anxiously await for Wednesdays so I can get the latest episode. Thank you so much for helping me grow my business." Oh my gosh.
Christine Hanse: Oh, if it's just to see both of our faces go like huge smiley face from space, this is worth it on its own to write a review, literally. We're purring away here.
Kendra Perry: We are. You just boosted our egos so much. That's great that you're laughing because that's what we want. [crosstalk 00:02:07]
Christine Hanse: We need some boosting, Kendra, for real.
Kendra Perry: We need some ego-boosting always.
Christine Hanse: That's great.
Kendra Perry: That's exactly what we want. We want you to laugh, we want you to learn because marketing and functional health aren't always the most sexy topics. We try to make it sexy over here, right?
Christine Hanse: Absolutely. That's why I'm wearing the makeup today and no pants, so there you go. [crosstalk 00:02:31]
Kendra Perry: Because we're in such different time zones, Christine's in Europe. I'm in Canada. I'm just waking up so I'm always like, "Err, it's the morning. I need my coffee." You're always so glammed up. You got your nice earrings, and your hair is beautiful. It's just a top polarizing.
Christine Hanse: Yeah, energy was dropped. By the time I put my top, I was like, "Yeah." That's it.
Kendra Perry: It always counts anyways over [crosstalk 00:02:56].
Christine Hanse: Anyways, it's going to be a great episode, as always. You can always head over to our website where you can also read the transcript to have a video with our beautiful faces. Come and visit us over on Instagram. Kendra is walking the chisels out of Instagram stories. It's hilarious. We both discovered that we have way too much time on our hands to play around with it. You laugh. It's fun. It's super fun. Anyway though, both of us got into this. I have my podcast. Actually, it was pretty soon when I started my second business, Sleep Like A Boss. I launched a podcast really, really quickly. It actually became pretty big out. I don't know why really. There are so many things in my business. I didn't know why. Podcast and for me and for Kendra, it's just something that we love listening to. I listened to lots of them, but I have to say it was essential when I started my business.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I'm a podcast fan. I'm always listening to podcasts. Anytime, I'm walking or moving and before bed at night, I actually listened to true crime podcasts and legal podcasts. That's what leads me to sleep at night, murder and legal proceedings. It's funny little piece of information about me. I'm super twisted in the brain, but we're not talking about true crime podcast. We're gonna talk about some of our favorite business and marketing podcast, plus a few of the functional health podcasts that both of us listen to. I mean, I love podcasts because there's so much easier to consume than video, right? I don't have time to watch video. I almost never watch it. If I'm not working on my computer, I'm up and I'm moving around. I'm doing shit, right? That's why I love podcast. You can learn so much. So much of my knowledge in business and marketing is actually from a lot of the podcasts I listened to.
Christine Hanse: I found it was a sense of community for some reason. When I started out, I didn't know who to talk to yet. At that time, that's actually my first suggestion. It's the format has changed quite a bit. At the time, when I started out, it was really coincidence. I don't remember how I got to them, but it's the Being Boss podcast.
Kendra Perry: Who does that one?
Christine Hanse: Two ladies, it's fantastic. It's very much aimed at creatives. Then, at the time, they had a Facebook group too, The Being Boss Facebook group. I think it's through the Facebook group that I found the podcast. It grew so big. Actually, they closed it down at some point because it was just too big. That was not where they wanted to have their energy. The format has changed a little bit, but I really loved it because you had sound business advice, but in such a fun way. I laughed out loud so many times. Actually, Emily and Kathleen, the two gals who are on the podcast really remind me a little bit of us in terms of just laughing and being very honest natured.
Christine Hanse: I really admired them because they took their very real as to the struggles as well. That moment when sometimes you have to stare into the abyss. It's just the entrepreneurial journey. It's a very, very, real, lot of tips, fun. They also have super interesting guests on their podcast. It was actually a sleep expert at some point. What was her name. Oh, right. It's me. I was on that too.
Kendra Perry: Famous plug.
Christine Hanse: I know totally. It was quite a big deal. I just got into it because a friend of ours that are meant just introduced us. At the time I was talking about baby sleep too, and Kathleen wasn't sleeping because her kid is as old as mine. Se she still had sleep issues. It's still a really great podcast. That's the first one I listened to. It makes me feel less alone in this world in kind of, "Oh, this is what an entrepreneur actually does." I really loved it. That's my first suggestion.
Kendra Perry: That's awesome. Yeah, it's so true because when you're working from home, when you're working alone, especially if you're new to being an entrepreneur, you don't realize that there is a community of people out there in the world. Maybe not in your town or in your city, but there's a lot of us out there just like you. That community is super important because it's very isolating sometimes doing what we do.
Christine Hanse: All right. Kendra, all yours.
Kendra Perry: I'm gonna actually start with talking about The Goal Digger Podcast, not the gold digger podcast, but that might be interesting too. Well, this is the Goal Digger Podcast. You guys might be familiar with Jenna Kutcher. She's a wedding photographer turned online marketing expert. I really love her podcast. I mean, she makes me laugh because she's super American, very, very American in the nicest way. She's just super positive, super happy, optimistic. She loves to go to church, and she loves all those American. [crosstalk 00:08:00] I love American. I think they're fantastic, but she's just ... I listened because sometimes it's just she's so optimistic and almost so cheesy. That being said, her podcast episodes are super actionable, right?
Kendra Perry: I often listen to her episodes, even when they don't have a lot to do with me, even when she's talking about a topic that maybe doesn't really make sense for me and my business, but just the information in it is so good. It's so actionable. All her episodes, I think she just crushes that. If you wanna learn about Instagram, or email marketing, or being vulnerable, she covers all those topics. She's also a really good one to follow on Instagram because she's done a really good job with building her Instagram following. She has a massive following, but she has very different topics that she talks about.
Kendra Perry: She has the online business, but she also shares a lot about positive body image, right? She posts a lot of photos of her in her underwear and her bikini. She's a very beautiful curvy woman, and I love that. She's probably multiple different audiences, but she's very good at being vulnerable in sharing herself, which is very important in today's marketing world. She's definitely an inspiration.
Christine Hanse: That's great. I absolutely love it. Perfect. You have to know that I told Kendra that I thought she was very good at piano when we met. She was so flattered. [crosstalk 00:09:21].
Kendra Perry: I was super flattered. I was like, "You can have your feed. Oh, my God. I'm just a small-town Canada girl. This is so great." She talks like that. Maybe she's so American. I was like, "You're such a darling."
Christine Hanse: All right. My second one, I really have to say I don't listen to podcast that regularly. Those are literally the ones that I have on my subscription library here, but I did listen to all of them. It's actually a podcast that belongs to an app. The app is called You Need A Budget or YNAB, Y-N-A-B, You Need A Budget. It's a budgeting app. It's changed my life. I'm ignoring it at the moment. Come on. I always love to fill it up when money comes in.
Kendra Perry: The app is called You Need A Budget.
Christine Hanse: Yes, the app is called You Need A Budget. You can use it on your computer and on your phone. It's really helping you to budget and to get a grip on your finances.
Kendra Perry: Oh, yeah. That's awesome.
Christine Hanse: Really good. It's really, really, really good. They have a matching podcast that obviously talks about the content of the app. It also really talks about what can you do in order to prepare for tax returns. He talks about ... He is basically the CEO from YNAB. He also talks about the company and the challenges they go through, which I think is interesting for any startup or any company whatsoever. They also talk about stories. They have people who were in massive debt and how they use YNAB, obviously, to get out of it. Even if it's success stories, you always learn a lot about it. I just think it's so important that we tackle our finances and not ignore them. I do right now. I really have to face the music.
Christine Hanse: It's a good thing. Also, goals, got money goals, anything that has to do with basically finances. It's just really down to earth. It's super short. Each episode is really short. I just like it because we need to, yeah, we need to, I don't know, take control of our finances. Not be scared of all of these topics. Whether use that or another budgeting app, it doesn't matter. I just think that advice is really good. It's very, very down to earth. You don't run a business if you don't make money in the end.
Kendra Perry: It's the less sexy part of being an entrepreneur, but we do need to be very involved in our finances. I feel sometimes health professionals, health coaches, are the worst offenders for feeling icky and weird about money and ignoring it. Just feeling overwhelmed by it, not wanting to deal with it, maybe pushing it aside, or just feeling like it's gross. If you wanna be successful and not go into debt, you need to be very involved in your finances.
Christine Hanse: I'm super, super proud that I'm not in debt. I don't wanna be ... Sometimes just a little bit overdraft, but I don't have any credit or anything. [crosstalk 00:12:08]
Kendra Perry: Yeah, totally. I actually did my own bookkeeping up until two months ago. For almost five years in business, I did all my own books. Eventually, it just got to the point where it's like, "I can't do this anymore. This is ridiculous. Why am I doing this?" I got a fantastic bookkeeper, but I was always very involved. I knew exactly where my money was going, where my expenses, how much I was making. I was very much involved in that process. I think that helped.
Christine Hanse: I really wasn't didn't have, really didn't have.
Kendra Perry: That's not for everyone. I'm pretty good with numbers. I don't love them, but I very much I'm a bit controlling with my money. It was really important for me to do it myself. Now, when my bookkeeper hands over my monthly report, I know exactly what I'm looking at. I know, I can actually pick out if she's made mistakes or something was missed because I know exactly what I'm looking at.
Christine Hanse: Wow.
Kendra Perry: I think that was important for me. I mean, maybe not for everyone. For a lot of people, that might be the first thing they outsource, right? They might outsource their bookkeeping.
Christine Hanse: I think some of it is you have to do on your own, and it just takes discipline. It's just a habit like everything else. It just keeping track. I'm much more flowy, but that can get me into trouble. I actually have to force myself to be very disciplined with it, but it's fun in the end. The app is super easy to use too. Definitely something I would recommend.
Kendra Perry: The app is You Need A Budget, and the podcast is called when?
Christine Hanse: You Need A Budget too?
Kendra Perry: You Need a Budget too, okay, so both are the same. Okay, cool. Awesome. All right. The next one I wanted to bring up. This is another marketing one. It's called the Art Of Paid Traffic. The host is Rick Mulready. I really love this podcast because he does these quick tips. A lot of it is based around paid traffic, paid ads. He's definitely your Facebook ads experts. If you're running Facebook ads, definitely subscribe to his podcast. I don't listen to a lot of the longer episodes, although there's really great episodes. He does case studies. He'll do various case studies on people with different types of businesses and how they doubled their ROI with this much ad spend.
Kendra Perry: He'll go through all different people in different businesses, but he does these quick tip episodes once a week. They're really good for just staying up to date with what's going on in paid traffic, with what's going on in Facebook ads. Again, anytime Facebook brings in new metrics or they're switching things up on the ads platform, the ads dashboard, he'll inform you and tell you what's up.
Christine Hanse: That's golden. I logged into my Facebook dashboard, apps dashboard for the first time in probably eight months. It's like, "What?" I'm lost. I need to start from scratch. I'm like, "Oh god. I don't know."
Kendra Perry: They're constantly updating it. That's how I stay up to date, because I'm not gonna be the one to get on support with Facebook and talk to them and read the reports and tasks. He does that stuff. He keeps you informed about it. Actually, the other day, I learned that ... If you guys run Facebook ads, the relevant score is being taken away. The relevant score is the score that you get out of 10 that tells you how relevant your ad is. If you have a really low relevance score, it's not performing well. You should shut it off, versus having a ... The thing, the issue with that metric is it doesn't tell you why that's not working. You're like, "Okay, my relevant score is low, but is it the copy? Is that the image? Is it the landing page? Is it my targeting?" You have no idea.
Christine Hanse: It's like being dumped, but you don't know why.
Kendra Perry: You're like, "Was it me?" [crosstalk 00:15:41]
Christine Hanse: ... awesome sex too much for you?
Kendra Perry: Was I not good in bed or something? What's going on? You have no idea why. Obviously, I'm great in bed. That was never why he broke up with me. What they're doing is they're replacing the relevance score with five different metrics that's actually gonna determine why.
Christine Hanse: That's good.
Kendra Perry: Why your ads are not working? That's the stuff that I learned from that podcasts. It's the Art Of Paid Traffic. Yeah, it's a good one for those quick tips. It just helps you stay up to date with Facebook ads, but also what's going on with LinkedIn ads, or Pinterest ads. He covers it all. It is good because Facebook ads are expensive these days. You really have to know what you're doing, but whereas there's a lot of opportunity and other types of ads out there right now. You have different platforms. That is one of my favorites.
Christine Hanse: I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. All right. The next one that I haven't because I love public speaking, it's called The Speaker Lab Podcast with Grant Baldwin. It's basically everything that has to do with speaking. How can you get booked on different stages? How can you create an event around your speaking gigs? He has lots of different speakers come in, or people who, the event planners, what they are looking for, how you create the speech, how you handle those, all of that like stuff. Basically everything that has to do with speaking. My plan for this year is really to have more speaking in my business.
Christine Hanse: I'm doing that right now. I'm focusing on that even further. I have a German-speaking speaker agency, and I'm pitching some US ones as well soon. It's definitely part of my business model. I like listening to him. I find some people have a really nice pace as well. It's one of these podcasts that when I just need to drive and the not mellow, but just have company, I just listened to him. I like it a lot. That's a good one to listen to.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, and I love how much you're bringing public speaking into your business. I think it's really powerful. You're everywhere. You're famous. You're my famous friend who's been featured in all the big publications. You're on TV, no big deal, whatever. I think you're so cool.
Christine Hanse: Yeah, totally.
Kendra Perry: It's not a big deal.
Christine Hanse: It's my goal. I love doing it. I'm hustling a little bit more at the moment to get that off the ground, but he has really good tips there so cool. If you are into speaking, I definitely suggest that.
Kendra Perry: What was the name of it?
Christine Hanse: The Speaker Lab.
Kendra Perry: The Speaker Lab.
Christine Hanse: With Grant Baldwin.
Kendra Perry: Make sure I will kill. Make sure I'll get that in the show notes so that you guys can find these podcasts. The next one I want to talk about. This is one of my favorites because I just love the host so much. She's a fellow Canadian. Her name is Sunny Lenarduzzi. We actually saw her speak at Social Media Marketing. [crosstalk 00:18:43].
Christine Hanse: Kendra's eyes turned into the little heart emoji, the emoji with the heart eyes. That's Kendra when she talks about Sunny.
Kendra Perry: I know, I'm a fan girl. I'm one of Sunny's fan girls, for sure. At Social Media Marketing, I was like, "Oh my god, it's Sunny. Oh my god." I just think she's great. She lives in Vancouver. She's a fellow Canadian, but she also crushes it. She's definitely your go-to for YouTube. She's a YouTube expert. I've taken her YouTube For Bosses' course and it's fantastic. Really, really good. She makes amazing YouTube videos. Her podcast, The Sunny Show is actually great. She has that same style, nice flow. She's really relatable.
Kendra Perry: She's kinda nerdy. She laughs and keeps it light, but she gives away really valuable information about not only YouTube, but all kinds of different. She's really good for Instagram. She will talk about email marketing. She has all the topics. Then she has some pretty amazing guests on there as well. I really love that podcast. I've learned a lot from her. Obviously, just I'm her fan girl. It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing when you're just like, "Oh my God, you're so great."
Christine Hanse: That's really cute, very [crosstalk 00:19:58].
Kendra Perry: She has a great podcast. I always like to give a shout out to my fellow Canadian entrepreneurs.
Christine Hanse: Absolutely, you should. I have one more that I like. I don't listen to it religiously, but I do listen from time to time. It's called She's Got Moxie with Joy Chudacoff. I actually have an interesting story about that one, because for some reason, I have no idea why, I saw one of her posts in LinkedIn. It was just an image promoting an episode that she had with a woman called Laura McHolm from North Star Luxury moving. I just thought, "Oh, that's interesting for me," because being connected with the luxury industry is exactly my people. I clicked on it and listen to the episode. I really loved it. She was talking to this founder of North Star moving.
Christine Hanse: Actually, afterwards, I reached out to North Star moving because I was wondering if I could collaborate, and we did. Now, I am in their program as a part of if one of their clients wants to book a session with me. Through them, I've been published on Yahoo Finance, and in a really great real estate magazine. I probably work with them further in the future.
Kendra Perry: Awesome.
Christine Hanse: This is just a really random story how things can happen. Never be afraid to reach out. I find here's my PR genie going off, opportunity, opportunity. If you hear someone on a podcast and you can see that there's potential to collaborate or just if you like them, just write them an email and tell them. People love it. This is just one example. Now I have my foot in the door with a prime A celebrity rental company, moving company. Now I have my foot in the door there. It's just really fantastic. I like her podcast too. She's Got Moxie is really the great title because that's what it's about. It's about female entrepreneurs in different businesses, successful businesses sharing the journey and the tips and everything. It's just nice. It's very American too, in a way, but I like it. I really like it.
Kendra Perry: That's awesome. I think we definitely need to do an episode about working with brands and collaborations and reaching out. That's definitely something, a topic that I am very interested in these days. We did learn a little bit about it when we were at the conference together. That's definitely something we should put on our list for an episode in the future. Cool. All right. I have a couple that I wanted to talk about that are more related to health. The first one I wanted to mention is Chris Masterjohn's podcast, Mastering Nutrition. Chris Masterjohn has a PhD in nutrition.
Kendra Perry: He's super. He's smart as a whip. Super, super smart, super nerdy. His longer episodes are super intense. If you don't have a good background in nutrition, functional health, and you're just not so nerdy, love learning, you'll be like, "This is intense." He calls it I think Chris Masterjohn light episodes, which I like the light episodes. He'll spend about 10 minutes talking about a specific topic. If you wanna learn about nutrition, different vitamins, he has all these little light episodes on how to manage your zinc status, your vitamin A status, your vitamin B2 status, whatever, where he goes through. He talks about the best places to get the vitamin from. If you're gonna supplement, what are the best forums according to research. He's very research-minded.
Kendra Perry: He's someone who actually spends a lot of time reviewing and leafing through what the available research is on the topic he's discussing. Then he sums it up in a pretty nice way. It's a really good podcast, if you want to really up your game with nutrition, if you're doing a lot of work with your clients with nutrition and recommending nutritional supplements, that sort of thing, a really good resource. I really love that one. Then the other one I love is called The Energy Blueprint podcast. That's Ari Whitten. He's another super nerdy health researcher. He's one of the guys, again, who's boots on the ground deep into the research, reading it all. He does really good review sessions on his podcast, where he'll go through some topic.
Kendra Perry: For example, he did one. I think it was about a year ago, but it was a really good one about adrenal fatigue because everyone's talking about adrenal fatigue. He's like, "Look, if you go on PubMed, there's actually not a single study on adrenal fatigue." There's actually one. It basically says that adrenal fatigue doesn't exist. He went through. He started looking at, "Okay, well, adrenal fatigue, there's no research on that but there's a lot of research on cortisol and its relationship to fatigue." He just basically goes through. He reviews all the research for and against, because basically, people are diagnosing adrenal fatigue based on cortisol levels.
Christine Hanse: Yeah, that's bullshit.
Kendra Perry: It is. That was a really good episode where he actually goes through it. You can actually talk about these topics with confidence, because maybe you're not the person who has time to go through and read all the nerdy research, but someone who will sum it up nicely for you, and tell you what's there. He comes at it from a really non-biased perspective. Plus, he has lots of great guests on a lot of topics that not a lot of other podcasts are talking about, which I love. It's a little bit more cutting-edge, bio hacker info, which I love. I'm such a nerdy bio hacker. That one's really a good one too.
Christine Hanse: Perfect. I love it.
Kendra Perry: I have one of the devices. I tell my boyfriend that when we're building a house right now, I'm like, "We're gonna have a room that's multiple different types of saunas. We'll have an oxygen set up."
Christine Hanse: Oh god.
Kendra Perry: We're gonna have a float tank. He's like, "Oh, my fuck. Are you serious?" I'm like, "Oh, yeah, bio hacker room, infrared sauna deluxe. Oh, my god can't wait."
Christine Hanse: That's there. I cannot wait to visit you. You have to have it all set up and then I just test drive it maybe.
Kendra Perry: Totally, we're gonna have an outdoor natural swimming pool. We're gonna have so many fun things that you'll never wanna leave. You'll just live in my basement forever.
Christine Hanse: I said, I don't really live in your basement now if I could enter. I'm just go, and hi.
Kendra Perry: Hello, I'm here. I'm here to stay. One day you'll have to come visit and it'll be so-
Christine Hanse: I will. I will. It's in my schedule in my fiction schedule. No, it is. I really want to. We just need to look at something.
Kendra Perry: We just need to work it out. We'll definitely go spend a couple days at Sparkling Hill, the retreat I was [crosstalk 00:26:30]. It's very, very nice.
Christine Hanse: Yes, totally.
Kendra Perry: Very, very nice. All right. I have one last one that I wanted to mention. This is actually another. I'm giving a big shout out to all the Canadians today. Lori Kennedy's podcast's The Business of Becoming Podcast. Lori Kennedy is based out of Toronto. She was a health coach turned business coach. Her big focus is launching programs, and turning one-on-one services into group programs, which I think is what a lot of us ultimately will want to do. Although, some of us love one-on-one. I know, Christine, you're really focused on one-on-one. I'm now pushing over multi-group programs. She's really good. She talks about a lot of more of the basic stuff.
Kendra Perry: I would say, it's best for someone who's newer, newer health coach, newer business owner, but she covers a lot of really good topics. She's very approachable and very actionable. She gives a lot of really good actionable tips, which is the most important thing to me. I love to listen to podcasts and come out being like, "I learned this one thing, and this thing is gonna help me. This is gonna help."
Christine Hanse: That's amazing.
Kendra Perry: I'm a big fan of her podcast, Business Of Becoming. We also wanna get her on the podcast.
Christine Hanse: Yes, we do. We do. Prudent. I actually thought of one last one. It's called Join Up Dots by David Ralph. He's been in the business for a long time. I've just talked to him today. His philosophy's Join Up Dots by Steve Jobs when he has a speech about all the dots that you have in the past, they will make sense in the future. They are the dots of your future, actually. You could build the dots in your future if you didn't have the ones from your past that's joining up the dots. He actually had a severe burn out and completely went underground in his personal life as well for two years. He was very close to a stroke, and really harsh wake up call. We just talked today.
Christine Hanse: A couple of weeks ago, he resurfaced basically on his Facebook account and just like, "Okay, world, I'm back." He's gonna touch with me today because he wants to re-record an episode. We had one in the past, and he wants to do a new one because he just really understood, for your business, you need to have fun is important. Money is important. Health is important. Time is important. Mindset is important. He's restructuring his main topics a little bit. I like it. He has some very impressive people as guests on there. It's all about joining up the dots. How did you get where you are, and what does it mean for your future in a way? He's hilarious. He's this British guy and shamelessly flirting a lot of the time. Hilarious. I'm really looking forward to this episode, but I'm already blushing. It's hilarious.
Kendra Perry: Oh, awesome.
Christine Hanse: He's just got British shut up.
Kendra Perry: Awesome.
Christine Hanse: There's a lot of wisdom behind, and a lot of love. He's very successful with his podcast, super successful. He also has a podcasting school. It's just a lot of wisdom on a page, basically. Have a look at that one to Join Up Dots.
Kendra Perry: Join Up Dots, I love that. I love the dots of your past and how they form your future. Because when you're in it, you don't really maybe see how things getting through and things lining up. Eventually, you have the story, right? You're like, "That's my story. All these things happened, and that's how I got here." But when you're in it, you're like, "I don't know what the fuck is happening."
Christine Hanse: I know. Fuck you, dot.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, again. It wouldn't be an episode of 360 Health Biz podcast without a few f bombs, right?
Christine Hanse: Totally. I think that was a lot of wisdom here I love for you guys to check out. If you like them, let them know that we send you. Love in the podcasting world is always appreciated, I reckon.
Kendra Perry: I think so. Guys, if you're listening right now, take a screenshot of this episode on your phone. Share it to your stories, tag 360 Health Biz Podcast and we will share it back to ours. We are just loving the Instagram Stories these days. We're both obsessed.
Christine Hanse: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:30:45] Kendra.
Kendra Perry: We went from basic pitch Instagram stories to pretty sweet stories. I think we're crushing it. You guys should check out our stories.
Christine Hanse: We just figured out. I finally got the music badge. I had to ask for it. Can you imagine?
Kendra Perry: Oh, really?
Christine Hanse: I don't have honestly [crosstalk 00:31:01] not everyone on Instagram has it. There's no rhyme or reason as to who has it and who doesn't. Then I just asked for it. In the app, I asked for help. You can send a message. I was like, "Dudes, I'm missing this badge." Then three days later, I had it.
Kendra Perry: Oh, that's awesome. I feel like you never hear back from them, but there's somebody on the other end who's listening.
Christine Hanse: They do.
Kendra Perry: They're there.
Christine Hanse: I need to talk to you.
Kendra Perry: They're there. They'll never acknowledge that they spoke with you, but they're there.
Christine Hanse: No.
Kendra Perry: Well, I'm gonna have to ask for that too. I don't know. I've not used music in my Instagram Stories yet. That's pretty [crosstalk 00:31:35]
Christine Hanse: But you don't listen to music. I love-
Kendra Perry: You know I do. I have a Spotify account. I have a Spotify account.
Christine Hanse: That's so funny. That's one thing I remember when you were like, "I don't listen to music." I was like, "What?"
Kendra Perry: I know.
Christine Hanse: I listen to music all day.
Kendra Perry: I think I was exaggerating a little. I do listen to music. I just mostly listen to podcasts, but I do listen to music especially when I'm just cruising. No pants in my house, I usually have music on.
Christine Hanse: Yes, well, I love using them from Instagram stories. Have a look at our accounts. Follow us on there. It's a good mix of wisdom, knowledge, fun, nonsense. Today, you'll see me without pants, actually. That alone should be worth a check in and giving a five-star review to this podcast, right? [crosstalk 00:32:24] There's a little skin in here.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Well, it was fun as always hanging out with you, Christine. I hope you have a good evening. I'm gonna just start my day right now. Probably have another cup of coffee. We will see you guys again in two weeks.
Christine Hanse: Two weeks. Bye, everyone.
Storytelling is not longer just about Cinderella and her glass slipper. No, storytelling is an integral part of your business and influencing your business’s brand. As Jamie Jensen shares in this episode, storytelling is the most human and natural thing you can do for your business. Find out how to use your story to develop your brand and where to use it. You don’t have to have just one story – you can be extremely successful with mini stories and multiple different stories. Tune in to learn about the building blocks to a good story…you’ll want to have a pen and paper handy for this one!
We cannot stop gushing over our amazingly talented guest in this episode. Jamie Jensen is an award-winning screenwriter, business strategist, and the creator of Story School. To date, she’s helped over 700 entrepreneurs increase their sales by up to 900% with the power of effective storytelling. Prior to helping business leaders connect deeply with their audiences through copy, video, and talks, Jamie worked in story development in Hollywood, assisting writers in both film & television. Jamie is the co-director and executive producer of the feature film “Hannah Has a Ho-Phase,” which won her the “Best Feature Writer” award at La Femme Film Festival in 2013, and she most recently completed her 9th feature-length screenplay.
Connect with Jamie Jensen
Get Jamie’s free All About Your About Page workbook at howtowriteanaboutpage.com
Grab our Ultimate Health Coaching Tool Kit complete with our top picks for platforms plus our sample contract and intake form: http://360healthbizpodcast.com
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Kendra Perry: Hello everyone. Welcome to another amazing episode of the 360 Health Biz Podcast. I'm Kendra Perry and I'm hanging out with my incredibly sexy and amazing and hilarious-
Christine: Totally, guys. I totally feel it.
Kendra Perry: ... cohost. Christine's here with her beer because she says it's after 5:00am and she [inaudible 00:00:27].
Christine: Okay. Well, now I can just have a sip right? Because I was going to do it on the low key but okay, fine.
Kendra Perry: You know what? Just go for it. Let's just be yourself.
Christine: It's 5:00 going 6:00. That's totally acceptable in Europe. I don't know but ...
Kendra Perry: I think it's totally acceptable. It's like 8:00 AM here, but, you know, it's all good. I've got my coffee. You got your beer. So-
Christine: See? There you go.
Kendra Perry: ... this is how we [inaudible 00:00:44]. Awesome. So guys, we have a really good show for you today. We're going to be talking about copywriting and storytelling. As you guys know, we were just at Social Media Marketing World in San Diego about a month ago now. A big theme of the conference was storytelling. Everyone was talking about how important it is to weave your story into your brand and into your message and we loved it. We actually did a couple of storytelling workshops.
Kendra Perry: After we got this message I was like, "Okay, we need to get someone on for storytelling" and I thought of Jamie Jensen because she is an award-winning screenwriter, business strategist and the creator of Story School. To date, she's helped over 700 entrepreneurs increase their sales by up to 900%-
Kendra Perry: ... with the power of effective storytelling. That's pretty crazy.
Christine: That's an impressive number, dude.
Kendra Perry: Prior to helping business leaders connect deeply with their audiences through copy, video and talks, Jamie worked in story development in Hollywood assisting writers in both film and television. She is the co-director and executive producer of the feature film Hannah Has A Ho-Phase. Interesting. I'm like, what's that about? Which won her the Best Feature Writer Award at La Femme Film Festival in 2013. She most recently completed her ninth feature-length screenplay. Jamie, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.
Jamie Jensen: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Kendra Perry: So tell me, what is Hannah Has A Ho-Phase. What's a ho phase? I'm so intrigued.
Jamie Jensen: It's a phase-
Christine: A ho phase or a whole face? Like it's just [inaudible 00:02:15]-?
Jamie Jensen: No. Like it's a phase when you're being a ho.
Christine: Oh I ... You know what? I understood she has a whole face. Like a whole W-H ... I was like, "Well what if you don't have a whole face? Do you have a half a face? Like what does that mean?" So, okay, got it. I'm on your level now.
Jamie Jensen: You know what?
Christine: We've all had a-
Jamie Jensen: It's a raunchy, romantic comedy so that's what it's about.
Kendra Perry: I think that's fantastic. I had a ho phase once so ... I've had a couple actually so-
Jamie Jensen: Oh dude [crosstalk 00:02:43].
Kendra Perry: ... I would probably really relate to this. Whoo hoo.
Christine: Who hasn't had a ho phase? I mean really?
Kendra Perry: So I-
Christine: Very poor people I guess. Very ... I don't know. People who are very stuck up.
Kendra Perry: No it's some such an interesting bio, Jamie. I love how you did the storytelling and storywriting for Hollywood. How did you transition into working with creatives and entrepreneurs online?
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, I mean I still do all of it to be honest. It wasn't like, oh, I ... It's more of just adding. It's adding more of what I do and taking a lot of the expertise that I have, not just from studying storytelling in like a formal way, but also from, you know, the business of film, which is ... My masters is in producing and so it's very much the business of content. So you have to look at marketing as a piece of the picture and a piece of, you know, everything that you're creating. You have to be asking yourself like, "How is this marketable?" As you're developing yourself as a writer, as a screenwriter in Hollywood, you're always looking at like, “Well, what's your brand? What's your voice? What makes you marketable? What makes you an enticing package?”
Jamie Jensen: When we're looking at people who are marketing themselves online, whether they're doing a lifestyle business and it's ... they're the brand, you kind of have to ask the same questions.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Jamie Jensen: So it really wasn't ... It was really a natural transition for me to start supporting entrepreneurs. The way that it happened ... and what's funny is my dad was an entrepreneur, so I actually grew up with like learning about sales and learning about direct response copy and learning about a lot of the stuff that I ended up applying to my business and then to other people's businesses.
Jamie Jensen: But really the way that I got started was, I was writing for everyone around me. You know, people were coming to me asking for help with their website copy. I was that go-to person that, "Oh well I have to write a bio on my website. I have to write a this. I have to write a that." So I just kind of became that go-to person for people in my circles. It eventually dawned on me that that was probably the business I should be starting.
Christine: That's a lot of money in there. Like [inaudible 00:04:44] it's like something where I don't skip on. Like where I don't really don't really care what the price tag is to some extent. It's so key. So I'm really excited to hear, you know, how you teach this as well because I find to some extent you can have talent or you can't, but it's ... So it's really going to be interesting to see what your main takeaways are for our listeners today as far as you can reveal your secrets. So it's going to good. So yeah, let's go ahead.
Kendra Perry: Awesome. Well I'd love to know like I know our listeners are probably thinking like, "Why do I need a story? I have a business." Why is it important to have a story in business?
Jamie Jensen: So storytelling really is, and this is funny because this is one of the reasons why I'm obsessed with story and why it's been like my nerd obsession since I was a teenager really. It's the most human thing. It's completely natural. It's completely human and everything that you ultimately end up learning about a story when you really study it is how it speaks to the human condition.
Jamie Jensen: The reason that storytelling is so important in marketing and especially the way that you choose to engineer and tell your stories, is that it really is a bridge that connects one human to another human. When you're able to not just communicate your experience, your expertise, what you've been through, build evidence ... You know stories are how we communicate meaning, are how we communicate lessons. They're how we ... Really, it's the difference between having a really smart quote on Instagram where someone's like, "Oh my God, totally. Like, just let it go" right? Versus like watching Frozen and understanding what that really means, right? So it's like, it's a different emotional experience that allows a person to actually integrate what they're learning and make it part of themselves.
Jamie Jensen: So you could tell someone, "Oh, well, I help clients achieve XYZ" blah, blah, blah. So for example, for me, oh yeah, I've had a client. Like I helped my clients increase their sales by up to 900%", but what anchors that in reality is me telling you the story of my client, Lauren, and like how she created a program herself and how she wrote all of her own copy and how she had a hungry audience, but what she was doing wasn't communicating to them appropriately. So through the process we worked on together, which I'm not going to go into deep detail, but that's how we ended up increasing her sales. So really you're humanizing an experience and making it relevant to the person who's paying attention.
Jamie Jensen: The big reason that I'm obsessed with story and also why it's so important is like that's about emotional resonance. So where ... It's like ... I call it like you're communing with your audience because you're ... because they're seeing themselves in you and they're feeling themselves in you. It's not just like, "Oh, I want to achieve what they achieved." It's, "Oh, I can feel what they felt, like both the pain and the victory." Everyone wants to experience that for themselves. So when you can have that experience and really demonstrate results to somebody and possibilities to somebody in an emotional way, like that's when it really becomes real for them.
Christine: Totally. Makes Sense. So let me ask you a question because that's something that I struggled with and we've talked about this before, Kendra and I, which is that, we all have like ... I think in high school you even learn the typical hero's journey of the struggle and then the victory and climax and dah dah dah. What if you don't ... and for me it was an issue for a long time. It's that I don't have the typical hero's journey, right? So my niche is sleep. I've always been a good sleeper. Right? So that's ... It wasn't my personal struggle per se that I got into the business that I have. It's not like for example, a cancer survivor who managed to get much better through nutrition or something like that. I know for a lot of health coaches, a lot of them do have the personal hero's journey. But what about those who came into this business for a completely different reason and who are probably like, "Oh yeah. This is not going to work for me because I don't have this story." What do you ...
Jamie Jensen: That's a great question and it's one that I love answering.
Christine: [inaudible 00:08:44].
Jamie Jensen: So the way that you use the hero's journey in marketing isn't about always telling your own hero's journey. Sometimes it is, and sometimes you have a story that works and functions and beautifully matches up like perfect puzzle pieces with your customer's journey mirroring your journey. However, the goal isn't about establishing that your story mirrors their story. The goal with telling your story is establishing your character and your place in their journey, which means that your job can be, to be the person who's been down the road they want to walk down, but your job can also be the person who's the exact compliment and opposite of them. So your example is great because you're like, "I've always been a good sleeper".
Jamie Jensen: But another example I love to use is like, let's say that you help people design and develop websites and you're very tech savvy. Your clients are people who don't want to touch the backend of a WordPress website to save their life. Like it scares them. They're afraid they're going to break something. It's just not their genius zone. They're really good at what they do. They're not good at tech.
Jamie Jensen: Your journey's never going to mirror their journey. Your place in their story is helping them get where they want to go by being the expert they need to get there. So when you choose to tell your story, I'm sure that there are stories you could tell about how awkward it could be, because this is also just like a normal human thing. You don't feel like you belong because maybe you're the one person who is good at something that everyone else around you isn't, and that establishes who you are to everyone else who needs your support.
Jamie Jensen: So I always say, and I always ... I actually have a training. I don't even know where it is right now. Like I don't know if I have it prerecorded anywhere, about the four business stories that every business needs because most businesses have a version of, "I'm exactly like you. I've been exactly where you've been", but the other side of that is like, "I'm actually completely different from you and that's a great thing because I'm going to be able to help you with stuff that you can't help yourself with alone."
Christine: Perfect. Yeah, that makes total sense. You know? I think sometimes you just need a little bit of help with that because you're so close to it whenever you do write your story that having a framework or having someone who can just see what you don't see is super, super helpful, I reckon.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah. I think a lot of our people ... I think a lot of people in general, not you Christine, but a lot of people get into health coaching, the health industry because of their own stories. I think there's a lot of people out there in our audience who probably do have really amazing personal stories they can weave into it, but I feel like ... The thing I hear a lot is, people get into health coaching because yeah, they had their own health struggle, but they're not necessarily out the other end yet. You know what I mean? Like they're still in it.
Christine: [inaudible 00:11:32].
Kendra Perry: So I feel like people are scared to share it because it's not like, "Yeah, I have this personal health struggle, but now I'm good. I feel great. I have energy. I'm awesome." Like they're still in the depths of it. They still feel like shit. They still have whatever issue and I think that can be pretty powerful. What do you think? Like even if you haven't come out the other end, like that can probably be a really good connecting point too.
Jamie Jensen: I think so. I think that that's a perfectionism problem.
Kendra Perry: Right.
Jamie Jensen: I think that that's like a visibility problem and a perfectionism problem where you're afraid to just be real with your audience. You know, I think you can come along way in a journey and still not be where you want to go. The truth is that in life, that's really how it is. Like you can, "Oh I hit six figures in my business. Now I want to multiply that. Now I want to hit seven." Or, "Oh I ... " You know, whatever it is that you are looking at as external markers of results. Yes those things matter in marketing but the truth is that the purpose of your marketing story is to build that know, like and trust, you know, that love factor. It's to create that relationship development with your customer and for them to really feel like they know you.
Jamie Jensen: So my thing is like, be transparent. You know, the truth is that health isn't the type of thing where like we're done. Mental health and physical health, you're never done. You're never like, "Oh my God, I'm like the perfect statue of exactly what I want to be and I'm going to freeze time." Like, "This is my freeze frame." It's like health is something that we're constantly working on. It's not like ... I had a therapist in New York a few years ago and she's like, "You're never done. You're never like, 'Oh, all of my childhood wounds disappeared.'"
Kendra Perry: I'm healed.
Jamie Jensen: "Poof, they're gone. I eliminated them. I'm healed." I'm sorry. I know.
Christine: Unless you work with Jesus, it's like, I [inaudible 00:13:11].
Jamie Jensen: I mean-
Christine: Oh my God.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:13:14].
Jamie Jensen: Look, there are plenty of energy healers who are like, "I cleared it. It's gone forever." I'm like, "It's not ... That's not how the subconscious mind works, people."
Christine: No, no.
Jamie Jensen: That's fine, because you can always be improving. The truth is that if you don't take the step forward towards improving, then you're never really going to improve, like at all. But I do think that not sharing your story because you're not in perfect health is fine because no one's ever in complete perfect health. There's like actually no such thing. Yeah.
Christine: So tell us a little bit about how to use your story. So let's say that we have some listeners who are like, "Okay, I get it. It makes sense to tell my story. It's ultimately going to convert into [cashola 00:13:58] because people like me. They will trust me and hence they will finally sign up with me after stalking me for five years on my email list. But how do you-
Jamie Jensen: The long game strategy. This is long tail economics.
Christine: Just like so painful. Like how do you use it apart from let's say the obvious. So for me the obvious would be, okay, I work out of my story and then I have it on my website. Probably because I like video, I'd record it and I tell it that way. Probably have it in my copy on my website. How else can you use your story? What have you seen when working with people in ways that they've used, what they worked on with you and then kind of implemented it in different ways?
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, this is a great question. It's actually like, I've created a bit of a framework around this because I have people who do My Story School Program or who've come to me and they're like, "I know my story but I don't know how to use it and I don't know how to adapt it to platforms." So I'm just going to list off the platforms that I'm like, "These all need your story and the way you use your story in these platforms is going to be different for each platform." So obviously social media, your website, your About page. If you want to create a brand video script, I also highly recommend creating video scripts and shooting video for Facebook Ads, for funnels, written copy in your Facebook Ads? For sure. If you're going to do a talk, if you're going to build it into a book. Those are really ... I feel like those are the big ones. Speaking website, social media, book. Oh, and a webinar.
Kendra Perry: Webinar. Yeah.
Christine: So what would social media look like? So I would just be like, "Okay. I do one post" like ... Ugh, this is too cheesy. It grosses me out, but you know, you have the vulnerability posts, so I just go like. But it's ...
Kendra Perry: Disclaimer. Vulnerable share.
Christine: Yeah, [inaudible 00:15:47] like ... Eye roll.
Jamie Jensen: Why do you need to ... It's not. I want to read it less now actually.
Christine: That's as far as my imagination goes to how I would use this. So please [inaudible 00:16:00] this kind of space. Would you kind of chop it up? Or how do you do it? I mean Kendra is pretty good at this stuff too, in a way-
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:16:08].
Christine: ... and I know that you're stalking people who are very good at this, Kendra, too know. So I'm not very ... In that aspect, I don't know what I have, some story trauma or something, I just cannot see it. It's one of these things where my brain is just like trees. I don't see anything, you know? So how would you do that? How would you use it?
Jamie Jensen: It may be some story trauma. We can talk about that.
Kendra Perry: I love it. I love it.
Jamie Jensen: These things are real. So with social media it's a little bit different in how you decide to use your story because I think that you can actually tell the same story in like a hundred different ways and keep reinforcing it. One of the things that I tell people to do, and I talk about this in Story School is like, every story has little stories in it.
Jamie Jensen: So you can choose like ... You can choose a snippet, you can also take a snapshot and expand upon it. Like, let's say part of your story is like the moment, so the part of every story is like, "The moment I decided to shit needed to change." Right? So like you can say that in like two sentences when you're telling it any other place. But when you're telling it on social media, you can literally just take that moment and zoom, zoom in, right?
Jamie Jensen: So you're like, "I remember the moment that I decided shit needed to change. I was walking here. I was at a café. I went to a cafe with my friend. I was sitting. I remember the cafe looked like this. I remember ... " You know, it's like you get really into details and you expand upon a moment and you ... It really is this game of like time expanding and contracting depending on where in the chronological timeline of your story you're speaking to. So that's number one.
Jamie Jensen: Number two is with social media, it doesn't ... Like every ... You're going to have more than one story in your business. I think we get really obsessed with like, "This is my brand story." And the truth is that like-
Kendra Perry: I know.
Jamie Jensen: ... you need more than one, and you're not just going to have one and use one. You're going to have many. They're all going to relate to the topics in your business that you speak to that are important to you. So you know, let's say like self-care is a pillar of what you care about and what your brand values are. So you're going to have a lot of stories that relate to self-care. The core brand story work is there to really speak to what's the main thing that people need to know to understand what you do, why you're the best at what you do and why they should know, like, and trust you. Like that's your core. Who are you for them? That establishes that.
Jamie Jensen: Beyond that, like you can create a story bank. Part of the process of being a content creator is mining for stories in everyday life. So it's a little bit of both in that, you can use snippets of your brand story and expand upon them. You can take from other things that are happening in your life that relate back to the brand values that you stand for. That's usually what I would recommend.
Jamie Jensen: I think for some people it can be really intuitive and they can just create on the fly. For others, they need a bank. They need to work with someone to extract stories out of them and like give them a spreadsheet of like, "Listen, here's 20 stories that you can tell and you can repurpose them in different ways and you can tell them ... " You know, and quite honestly, if you had a bank of 20 stories on social media, people probably would stop noticing that you were telling the same story.
Christine: Oh yeah. [inaudible 00:19:18].
Jamie Jensen: Like they wouldn't notice by the time you got to 20 again, like number one happened again and they're ... They would just be like, "Wow, oh my gosh", because you're catching a new follower. You know, it's not.
Kendra Perry: Too.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah. Does that help? Does that make sense?
Christine: My eyes are like, you know, the heart or the star Emoji? It's like right here on a [inaudible 00:19:37] bank. I'm just like, cling. [inaudible 00:19:39].
Kendra Perry: Well, I love it, and it seems like what you're saying is like, it doesn't need to be this like crazy story. Like you could take small little things that happened in your life and turn them into something interesting that has maybe a lesson or, yeah, it relates back to the overall message that you're trying to tell. Right?
Christine: I just have to laugh because Kendra posted her cooler with all her food that she talked to.
Kendra Perry: [inaudible 00:20:01]. You know? [inaudible 00:20:01].
Christine: I was just like, "Oh, this stuff is delicious." And she's really good at what she does. She knows her shit, but it was just too hilarious seeing that cooler with all of the food.
Kendra Perry: Well, you know, this-
Christine: [crosstalk 00:20:16] it was like [crosstalk 00:20:17].
Kendra Perry: ... spa that I go to, they have a really expensive shitty restaurant. So I packed everything I needed in my cooler for like two days. But it's funny, everyone was like, "Oh my God, you're so healthy." I'm like, "Do you know that underneath the greens and the [inaudible 00:20:29] was four chocolate bars and like all this fucking shit crap food?" And everyone's like, "Oh my God, you're so healthy." I'm like, "Nah, I just packed a certain way."
Christine: It was really good [inaudible 00:20:41]. It was amazing [crosstalk 00:20:44].
Jamie Jensen: Strategic packing.
Christine: Totally. Very.
Kendra Perry: I'm like, "I'm so healthy", and then behind the scenes I'm stuffing like five chocolate bars in my face.
Christine: Yeah, I'm really getting into it. Like I try ... We went to a workshop at Social Media Marketing Worlds for Instagram Stories and both Kendra and I are totally flashing on it and I try to be more strategic about it now. So I literally have some days where I'll just prerecord. So I record moments and then I upload them all together in the evening. So really trying to have just a life into me. I don't quite manage to always tie it into my topic, I have to say maybe because my life doesn't quite revolve around it. Or maybe today, because today I literally didn't get out of bed cause I was just lazy, but that's not quite the same thing.
Christine: But I do find that these platforms are all pushing these dory kind of structures, you know, not to just do a one-off picture or just to do a one-off kind of video, but really to try and tie it in so that people can get to know you and that it's literally like a, yeah, like a script in a way. So what have you ... So particular to Instagram stories, have you had a client who for example said, "Look, I want to focus on that"? What have you found maybe that is great at working at that concept to also convert clients? Because in the end, it's all fun and games, but we really want to make money, right? So what are things where you said, "This is the golden ..." Not the golden ticket. We know that doesn't really exist but as close to.
Jamie Jensen: Really ... I mean social media is about developing relationships. So it's hard for me to say use conversion strategies on Instagram stories because I don't think it's about that. As far as far as storytelling techniques are concerned, it is pulling someone through a beginning, middle, and an end. So it's like, "Oh, I started cooking this, and here's all the different steps in the process." I think that process-oriented stories are probably the best thing to do on Instagram.
Kendra Perry: Yeah [inaudible 00:22:41].
Jamie Jensen: Taking people behind the scenes, taking them into the how, sharing what you're working on and like teasing-
Christine: [inaudible 00:22:47].
Jamie Jensen: ... your audience with what you're working on. Like, honestly, I think that it ... I think that the best use of Instagram Stories is always process-oriented behind the scenes.
Christine: Yeah. That's very cool.
Jamie Jensen: Taking them like behind the curtain. You know, it's like the Wizard of Oz.
Kendra Perry: Behind the curtain.
Christine: Yeah [inaudible 00:23:02].
Jamie Jensen: I can't speak to like, well what converts sales on Instagram. It's not ... I don't know. I don't look at social media that way. I think you're continuing to reiterate your message, the value you deliver, how you help, who you are. Then you lead them to the next step, which could be a landing page, could be a website, could be a webinar, could be a challenge, could be a Facebook group where you're nurturing an audience beyond what you're doing. I think that it can be challenging to build that same sense of like community and tribe on Instagram compared to the way you use other platforms and how they function for conversion, if that makes sense.
Christine: Yeah, totally.
Kendra Perry: It seems like social media is kind of like that dating part of a relationship where you're just kind of like, you go for coffee. You're like, "Hey, this is a little bit about me. Can I know a little bit about you?" But if you come in too heavy with the sale and you're like, "Hey, you want to like get married, have babies right now?" That person's going to be like-
Jamie Jensen: ... "Holy shit. That's fucking crazy. Get me out of here", right? Like I talk about relationship development like a lot with different platforms and like what stage they are. You know, like when someone opts in they're like, "Oh yeah, yeah. Take my number." You know?
Jamie Jensen: And someone who's following you on social media, like it is they're like, "We're checking you out. We're maybe flirting, but like I don't have your number yet. Like we're not there yet", right?
Kendra Perry: Yeah. I think that's important because I know I made this mistake when I was new to having a business. It's just like ... You're just like, "Oh sweet. I'll just get a Facebook page and I'll just tell people about my program and people will buy." And then you're pushing it out there and you're getting crickets and nothing's happening. You're like, "I don't understand why people don't want this from me."
Christine: I used the exact template that made Russell Brunson a gazillion billion dollars. Why isn't it working? You know?
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: I get it.
Jamie Jensen: Totally.
Christine: It's just more difficult than that sometimes.
Jamie Jensen: It's also kind of-
Kendra Perry: So Jamie [crosstalk 00:25:10]-
Jamie Jensen: That's also the same thing as like getting into a really sexy dress, going to a party and walking around the whole time, talking about yourself. Like that's what then it's like, "Who wants to date that?" It's just like you know, it's like, "I'm really hot. I'm just going to walk around and talk about myself the whole time" and like not ask questions and not listen and not speak to them and not engage and like not care about anybody else. Like that's [crosstalk 00:25:34] person.
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:25:34] that's literally what-
Jamie Jensen: That's what people do when they build their website and they're like, "It's all about me." [inaudible 00:25:41] but like no one cares.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, no one cares about you.
Jamie Jensen: [inaudible 00:25:44] care about themselves.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah.
Christine: [inaudible 00:25:47].
Kendra Perry: So I was ... Right before we hopped on the call I went and got your email opt-in and I got all your stuff and in the, your little like mini course that I think just purchased because I got sucked in, but I'm really excited to do it. But you were talking about in the first email that I got, you talked about like a story format where you said, "The desire, the challenge, the twist, the shift and the takeaway." Can you break that down a little bit? Is that kind of how you coach people how to kind of start building their story?
Jamie Jensen: So the tripwire that you bought is like, I have a five-step story formula, which is exactly that. It's ... How do I say this? It's kind of like one format that isn't as detailed as other formats I teach. So yes, I can.
Jamie Jensen: Usually, what I have people do is I have them work backwards through it. So we start with like the takeaway, which is like, what's the message you really want to deliver? What are you trying to say? Sometimes you don't know until you've like done the other five steps and then you come back around and you're like, "Oh wait, what am I really trying to say here? What am I trying to convey?" So knowing what you stand for, what's the result that you want to actually show your audience as possible, and the story that you share no matter what, should be evidence for that takeaway.
Jamie Jensen: So I always talk about romantic comedies because I've written quite a few and that's ... I write R-rated comedies, but I also write relationship-driven stories so they'd follow a romantic comedy structure.
Kendra Perry: Very cool.
Jamie Jensen: The underlying message of all romantic comedies is love conquers all. Like that's really [inaudible 00:27:21] they all end, love conquers everything.
Christine: Okay. I'm out a divorce. I'm fine. Oh no. Where's my beer?
Jamie Jensen: But if the movie didn't end with them living happily ever after and then it's like, "We don't see anything that happens after that because we're stop ... It's kind of like what you're saying with health coaches who haven't [inaudible 00:27:45] at the end and they're like, "I don't want to share my story because ... " Because it keeps going, but we get to choose what snapshot we share of our timelines.
Jamie Jensen: If the romantic comedy movie didn't end in that space, then the message would change. So you get to decide what your message is based on what you share in your story and like where you start, where you end. So know your takeaway.
Jamie Jensen: You know, when I teach this on stage, I call it ... I had a professor in college who called like, he would say he had a chicken McNugget for us. That was like his way of saying it's a little nugget of information. So he would call it chicken McNugget. It was just hilarious. So I'm like, "What's your chicken McNugget? What do you want people to walk away with? What do you want them to feel and know and do and feel confident in?" So always start with the takeaway.
Jamie Jensen: The desire is usually going to be, you know, what is it that ... If you're telling your personal story, what is it that you wanted that set you off on the journey in the first place? What created that desire? What was the goal? What did you want? The challenges like, what was hard about that? What was the problem you encountered trying to face the goal? The twist is like, what did you have to change?
Jamie Jensen: So, for example, let's say your goal ... I'm just going to use like a really ... This is just going to be really bad example, but the basic, most basic example. Let's say that the goal was like, I want to lose 10 pounds. Okay? So you're like, "I'm gonna lose 10 pounds. I'm going to do it by like not eating sugar and working out every day", which actually sounds really healthy and probably I should use a better example. But let's say that like it's not working for you or you crave chocolate every day and you're like, "I just need to eat chocolate everyday. Like I can't do this no sugar thing. It doesn't work for me." So you decided like, "This isn't going to work. I need a different approach." So that's the twist.
Kendra Perry: Right [inaudible 00:29:40].
Jamie Jensen: Then the shift is you take a new approach that helps you actually get where you want to go. So the shift is like, "Oh, here's my new approach." You know, when we're talking about storytelling, it's always about a character achieving a goal in spite of obstacles. Based on what the obstacles are and what the obstacles ... what you encounter, what happens is either the goal changes or you find a way of overcoming the obstacle that becomes part of the takeaway message. So you're building evidence for what you want the customer to know.
Jamie Jensen: So let's say you want the customer to know you can have chocolate every day and lose weight, and like, here's my system for doing that, right? So then that's the story you tell them and in the shift you're like, "Instead of not eating sugar, what I did was I let myself have one piece of chocolate every day and that actually helped me curb my cravings, and like balanced whatever and I wasn't like I had to ... I experienced pleasure in how I was eating and that helped me create what I wanted to create." So that's kind of the very fast version of teaching those steps.
Christine: I like it. So how do you work with your clients. So, I mean it's such a personal kind of topic, but from what I soused out here, there's like all kinds of different strategies that you use. You know, let's talk business here. Like the way that you structured your business, so walk us a little bit through that. If we have some people like me right now who's like on my notepad is like hire her, [inaudible 00:31:07]. How did you build your business and how is it structured now?
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, so is the question like what do I offer and what are my like what's my business model?
Christine: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, so great question. I had a copywriting agency for about four years that I shut down a year and a half or two years ago now. So that was my first business model. Now my model is different. I do a lot more teaching, mentorship, consulting, optimization and like custom work. So I don't really do done-for-you writing very often. I will do co-writing with people sometimes like actually help them, they write, I write, we switched back and forth. I support them in extracting what needs to be extracted and structuring it the way it needs to be structured. So it's a little similar to like developmental editing work but it involves more like story extraction.
Jamie Jensen: I have a process for getting people to like share stuff and I go really deep with my clients. You know I'm a [inaudible 00:32:05] person so even though what we pull out is going to be like really, really legit and, and it's going to have emotional resonance, but we can also build a sense of humor into it, which is really what I do with people.
Jamie Jensen: So to-
Kendra Perry: [crosstalk 00:32:20]. I actually noticed that about your website. I was like, "Man, her copy is really good", but I laughed the whole time when I read your About page. I was like, "This is great", because I love that. I love humor. Like you know, it's like, "Well, is she serious?" We've got to like laugh and say stupid shit sometimes.
Jamie Jensen: That's what I did. Like the first website that I had, everything was super clean and like polite. The one that I have now, it's just like full of swear words and just calling it the way that it is. Ultimately people buy us. So if they don't like the way that we talk, they will never trust us and they will never [inaudible 00:32:52].
Kendra Perry: You need to bring all of you.
Kendra Perry: Okay. That sounds-
Jamie Jensen: So the business model is, I have two courses I sell. One is on writing your website copy to convert more clients and one is more, it's Story School, which is like, "Here's really like all you need to know about story structure." So I've eliminated all of the BS, like all the stuff you don't need to know, here, you don't need to know it, but like, here's actually how to tell a story to engineer it emotionally. So that's what Story School is.
Jamie Jensen: Then what I've created now that I'm actually putting together for the summer is, more of like a group mentorship program around like how to take your story and adjust it to different platforms. So it's kind of a blend of ... It's going to be like a small program, but it will be a group, but it'll be like the best way to get mentorship from me because it's not as expensive as one-on-one would be for example.
Kendra Perry: Right, yeah.
Kendra Perry: Yeah.
Christine: Which is what Kendra does mainly too.
Jamie Jensen: [inaudible 00:33:55].
Kendra Perry: Yeah. Like group programs. One-on-one I find so exhausting sometimes, but group os fun.
Jamie Jensen: Yeah, yeah. I love one-on-one, but it's ... Because I only have until [inaudible 00:34:05] group courses but it's because charge accordingly so it's fine.
Kendra Perry: Totally. Cool. It sounds like when you work with a client you kind of pull the stories out of them. I'm picturing this therapy session where I cry a lot.
Jamie Jensen: Totally. That is totally what happens.
Kendra Perry: I feel [crosstalk 00:34:19] as in, "This doesn't belong to my story. Tell me more. Boo hoo" you know? Like, yeah.
Jamie Jensen: It's very healing. Like, here's the thing. Stories heal people. Like this is, I mean, this is honestly why I do the work I do. Like, I believe that story is healing. I believe that watching someone else's story can help you have that emotional catharsis where you're like, "Oh my God. They're me." Then you actually get the benefit of that healing.
Jamie Jensen: I have people who listen to my podcast, there are episodes where I just share stuff and they message me and they're like, "Oh my God. I so resonate with this. I went through that too. I was crying the whole time listening to your episode." We don't realize the power of sharing our story that like we're not just getting clients, we're actually healing other people by doing it. So it takes a lot of balls to really go there and it's worth it on many different levels.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, yeah. I totally agree about ... A year ago I made a shift to just trying to be more raw and honest with my past and things I've done and I've shared all kinds ... If you go through my Instagram, I mean you can learn some pretty dark things about me and embarrassing and like times where I like did too many drugs-
Christine: She [inaudible 00:35:32].
Kendra Perry: ... and like all kinds of stuff.
Christine: She [inaudible 00:35:33].
Kendra Perry: But it helps. Right? I get that too. People contact me and being like, "Oh my God, I can't believe you shared that. That was so raw and it shocked me, but it's so ... Like, I did that too", you know, sort of thing. I love that stories heal people. I think that's amazing.
Christine: Totally. All right, so I think that's pretty much all we have time for at the moment. But how can people get in touch with you and hire you ideally? I do think [inaudible 00:36:02] We tend to spend so much money, especially in the beginning of our business on email and [inaudible 00:36:08] courses and on website design and all kinds of crap. It's like, I think story is like one of the key pieces. It tends to be overlooked or not taken seriously when I think, I really believe that is one of the main converters in the end, longterm game. So how do people get in touch with you? How do they find you?
Jamie Jensen: They can go to the jamiejensen.com which is where Kendra grabbed the messaging worksheet and the mini story course, which we just chatted about. So there is a messaging worksheet on that page. If you're having trouble writing your About page and you just run a workshop, like a little workbook for that, I have a free one at howtowriteanaboutpage.com that they can go grab that literally walks them through a process of like, I just ask them questions and they just answer them. By answering questions, they're actually writing the first draft for their About page. So it's so easy. It'll pull a story out of them for their About page. So I would say those are probably the best two places to go just get some support right now in like figuring out your messaging and kind of starting this process for sure.
Kendra Perry: Perfect.
Kendra Perry: Well I'll try to be less of a creeper, Jamie and I'll start to engage with you more because I've been like creeping behind your ship for a while.
Christine: See well it worked. You've bought, so it worked.
Kendra Perry: Yeah, I just came out of the woodwork. I'm like, "Be on my podcast. Oh my God", but really I've been creeping for a while so.
Jamie Jensen: This has been such a pleasure. Thank you ladies so much.
Kendra Perry: Thanks for being here.
Christine: Thanks so much.
Kendra Perry: Thanks so much guys. Yeah, if you're listening to this episode, make sure to screenshot it, share it to your stories, take a 360 Health Biz podcast and we will share it to our stories and give you a shout out. If you love this episode, definitely leave us a five star review on iTunes or wherever. I think you can only leave one on iTunes. Can you leave one on Spotify? I don't even know.
Kendra Perry: I always say iTunes and Spotify, but maybe just iTunes and guys will be with you again in two weeks time with another fantastic episode. Bye.
Christine: [inaudible 00:38:01].